Has this happended to anyone running these same arms? The twist was significant enough to sheer 2 bolts from the flat top knuckle. The 3rd was twisted but we were able to get it out. This is my buddies rig running 37's and he does have tons of flex in front. But when he called A.E. they said they have never had this problem and that he must have too much flex. WTF is up with that, too much flex. Did the eng. not design this for such a thing? I took these while he was at work because we spent 4 hours on the trail trying to come up with a fix. Anyone?

Some views of the twisted arm :eek:

there are 2 more shots of the arm. Damn did it twist :eek:

were they bolts or studs ?

- jack

last one of the arm :(

Originally posted by morpheus
were they bolts or studs ?

- jack

Bolts, why do you ask? They are 1/2" bolts and the spacer from AE was also mounted under the arm.

Originally posted by bertha
we spent 4 hours on the trail trying to come up with a fix.

Of course you spent 4 hours trying to come up with a trail fix... You spent two weeks trying to replace a fuel pump at home... :flipoff2:

Originally posted by crashinaz


Of course you spent 4 hours trying to come up with a trail fix... You spent two weeks trying to replace a fuel pump at home... :flipoff2:

Isn't that Zuk calling you back ot the bedroom? :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: And shaddup abou the fuel pump, it still hurts :(

Originally posted by bertha


Isn't that Zuk calling you back ot the bedroom? :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: And shaddup abou the fuel pump, it still hurts :(

I'm at work, but he did call... He told me to tell YOU to "get the hell off of the damn internet, slip back into that French Maid outfit and get your :rainbow: ass back over his place"... :D

Hey Bertha, how much you gettin for the Mechanix gloves in the lower left of the pics?:D :D

Originally posted by Mustard Dog
Hey Bertha, how much you gettin for the Mechanix gloves in the lower left of the pics?:D :D

Not my store, my buddy works there who broke the arms. But I think they go for $16 bucks :D :D

And you would ask me something like that :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :D

Show the rest of the setup -- you musta been running a STOUT tie rod setup to put that much bend into the steering arm.

What were you doing when it broke?

Originally posted by randii
Show the rest of the setup -- you musta been running a STOUT tie rod setup to put that much bend into the steering arm.

What were you doing when it broke?

Actually he was coming down a ledge, and not a steep ledge at that. But this is what it looks like now, after our trail fix :)

His jeep in case anyone wants to see it too :D

Ass shot :rolleyes:

Avalanche makes their arms from 1" cold-rolled (according to their web site) and then whacks 25% or so off the thickness in order to offset the angle on the knuckle top. Having just pulled a GM arm off I know that it's forged, probably 1541, and 1-1/4" thick. IMHO the Avalanche arm is substandard - or at best not the sort of overkill that I prefer. Adding a spacer - and thus another interface - doubles the shear load on the studs (as discussed here previously). That bolts were used instead of studs makes the setup even more sucky. BillaVista has compiled a lot of good info on this.

Someone posted here a while back about offering arms made from 4130, and I'm waiting to hear more about that.

He should peel that windshield sticker off.......:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

why are his front tires on backwards? if you upgrade to a dana 60 front you get 4 bolts to hold the steering arm on! It looks as though he needs to adjust his steering stops out a bit- the axles show evidence of interference. A prime example of why to not cut the oem steering arm off the knuckle. And I do agree, they look too thin to me. 1" cold rolled seems to me the minimum as long as they are wide also. Like 1"x2" or so. just my rambling thoughts on the matter.

Coming down a ledge, huh? How hard?

Agreed with others, you have a collection of compromises -- spacer blocks and a spacer... mebbe this would have held together better with better hardware. Still, that twist in the steering arm suggests a whole lotta force concentrated on that arm before it sheared the fasteners. Hard to make out from the picture, but is that drag link badly bent?

Randii

Originally posted by randii
Coming down a ledge, huh? How hard?

Agreed with others, you have a collection of compromises -- spacer blocks and a spacer... mebbe this would have held together better with better hardware. Still, that twist in the steering arm suggests a whole lotta force concentrated on that arm before it sheared the fasteners. Hard to make out from the picture, but is that drag link badly bent?

Randii


Okay, my take on the matter, I agree the arms are too thin for my liking as well. If you look closely, you can see the arm where it was machined also has sharp edges where the material is already thin. Also not a good thing. The ledge was no more than 2 feet and nothing in front of him. Wish I had a pic for you to see where it was. The stress had been done before obviously. So now the bolts, the sharp edges, the thin material, the big tires and the ledge. It twisted and no, his tie rod was fine. Not even a bend at all. :(

From these details, it certainly seems the arm was at fault... have you returned it for their inspection? I hope they'll warranty it, but they may have to see it first.

Randii

Originally posted by bertha



Okay, my take on the matter, I agree the arms are too thin for my liking as well. If you look closely, you can see the arm where it was machined also has sharp edges where the material is already thin. Also not a good thing. The ledge was no more than 2 feet and nothing in front of him. Wish I had a pic for you to see where it was. The stress had been done before obviously. So now the bolts, the sharp edges, the thin material, the big tires and the ledge. It twisted and no, his tie rod was fine. Not even a bend at all. :(

Don't forget that cold-rolled is the play-doh of steels. There's absolutely no reason to use it for a steering component besides low cost - and that's just not a good reason at all.

Originally posted by Lloyd


Don't forget that cold-rolled is the play-doh of steels. There's absolutely no reason to use it for a steering component besides low cost - and that's just not a good reason at all.

Actually i did not know it was cold-rolled until now. Again, not my Jeep but now that I know that, I agree. Not good for the stresses it will endure. :)

You keep saying that it is not your jeep. The question is, "Where was your Toyota during this time?" We all want to know.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by stemp
You keep saying that it is not your jeep. The question is, "Where was your Toyota during this time?" We all want to know.:flipoff2:

Is this a fawking newbie with wheel-hop and no front locker stepping up to the plate :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You know it baby. But at least my rig was there, not parked at the trailhead because you still can't get the fuelpump to work right. How do you like the fresh air from your sunroof?:D :nuke:

Originally posted by bertha


Is this a fawking newbie with wheel-hop and no front locker stepping up to the plate :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

NOPE, IT'S YOUR OL' PAL THIS TIME :flipoff2:

come on, fess up, WHERE WAS THE YOTA!

and yes, the arms look pretty pore-

Originally posted by crawler#976


NOPE, IT'S YOUR OL' PAL THIS TIME :flipoff2:

come on, fess up, WHERE WAS THE YOTA!

and yes, the arms look pretty pore-

The fuel pump was surging and I just did not want to take the chance of being stranded. But when I get back to the rig, it runs fine and still is? :confused: I ran the first half of the trail just fine, but parked it for the rest of the trail :( until I went home.

This is a very good example of why the conical washers are used to produce a zero-clearance inteference fit.

I posted some good tech on it in a question where I asked Clifton hinself why they felt it wasn;t necessary to employ this technique...guess waht? he never answered my question :rolleyes:

You might dig it out with a search.

Buy elsewhere - fawk the warranty - who wants another trail failure.

Look into OTT, Roggy, Parts Mike, etc.

well since no one else said it i will i think it was the added super tracktion of the boggers on the jeep in reverse :flipoff2: ha hahah ahha well just kiddeind if you want so real arms get the ones that parts mike sell they even come with studs and cone washers
storm :trooper:

Wagoneer Machine makes some stout arms. He uses 5/8" studs instead of 9/16" bolts and he has a gig to drill and tap the knuckles. He is running 44's with full hydralic and hydralic assit steering on his rigs.:smokin: :flipoff2:

is it me, or is the Bogger on the front drivers side on backwards, or am I :smokin:

Originally posted by bertha


The fuel pump was surging and I just did not want to take the chance of being stranded. But when I get back to the rig, it runs fine and still is? :confused: I ran the first half of the trail just fine, but parked it for the rest of the trail :( until I went home.

Was it the fuel pump surging or the duct tape on the air intake by the mass air sensor?:confused: Bring the heat. This newbie is ready Big Bertha.

Originally posted by the Millenium Falcon
is it me, or is the Bogger on the front drivers side on backwards, or am I :smokin:

You're :smokin:... Because both of the fronts are that way. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by stemp


Was it the fuel pump surging or the duct tape on the air intake by the mass air sensor?:confused: Bring the heat. This newbie is ready Big Bertha.

Bertha's SO trail breakdown prone... Good lord. His truck died on the dirt road back to my tow rig... Then it died the NEXT day on Lower Woodpecker... :rolleyes: Good thing he's got that toolbox... He NEEDS it...

Originally posted by crashinaz
You're :smokin:... Because both of the fronts are that way. :flipoff2:

well shit :rasta:

so consider me a little slow, am i to draw from this conversation that their arms for the dana 60 are less than desirable.

i really like the multiple hole to allow for adjustment in placing your tie rod

ya i must be retarded also. parts mike sells that arm where thetie rod joins up with the drag ling what the hell is that will avanlanches arms be strong for a d60 with kingpins
thanks guys....

DAMN!!!! Glad this was on the trail. This is a good example of NOT TO USE BOLTS.....:eek: I think I would hang it on the wall and learn.....good luck.....:beer: :D

also wagoner's arms are 295$ a pair and they look like shit....:rolleyes:

My first thought on seeing the damage is "what kind of ends is he using? Heims that don't rotate far enough maybe"? Looks like the arm twisted because the rod end couldn't. Am I wrong?

Paul

hey TJ7:

since, of course, LOOKS are what really matters when dealing with the steering components that are under HEAVY stress.....

dude i wasn't talking about there looks as in if it was pretty or not i was mearley stating there design and length and amount or adjustability was just lacking . even rockstompers are nicer .i think avalanche stuff is incredibel i never had any problems with them so i hope i wont have the same problem when i get a set of there arms for my 60...

looks to me that too much force was applied to it, is anything in the suspension binding? maybe the tie rod ands don't have enough angle? or is it rod ends I can't see?
the arm is too thin I agree, should be strong enough to shear the bolts without twisting.

Just out of curiosity was he using any misalignment bushings. Judging by the picture of the trail fix, it looks like he was using heim joints. I can't imagine that he has soooo much flex that he is getting full travel out of the heim, but if he is, I imagine that a heim and a thick DRAG LINK (not tie rod as I see it so commonly referred too) would be stronger than that arm. If so, he may want to add a bend in the drag link to make the heim sit perfectly horizontal when the vehicle is sitting on level ground. This would minimize bind.

Curious what people think of as the stongest steering arm mfg for a 44 is??? Has anyone had experience with the Dynatrac ones?

Way

A member in our club also bent one of their D44 Hi-steer arms. They said that that had never happened before and that they would replace it for free. That was last summer. :mad:

I just bought their dana 60 arms and will be running them with 44's. I hope that I dont have any problems.:eek:

I have heard that if you do not mill the top of the axle prior to putting the arms on, that the bolts/studs that protrude out of the knuckle, receive more force than they are able to accomadate. If you mill the surface, the hi-steer arm and the knuckle have maximum friction thus minimizing force on the studs. If he gets a replacement, he may want to take the knuckle to a machine shop and have it milled flat. I would be suprised if Avalanche did not take care of this as long as they were installed correctly. However, I have heard some negative experiences with the shop lately.

Way

I had a very nice talk with Vinney this morning, your freind. Important information left out in the opening paragraph. The arm spacers were drilled 10 thousands to large, thus making the mounting sloppy and prone to break. Vinney was aware of this. We gave him, no charge these junk spacers telling him not to drive on the street, to continually check the torque and that they had a high degree of failer. He accepted that, but was desperate for a weekend run that was going to help promote his shop. Why did we send him defective spacers? Because we were out of our normal spacers and I gave the defective ones, to help him out. We are sending him the correctly machined spacers on Tues.
As far as the arm being bent, the steering must be under a bind to create this distortion. I told Vinney that he may have to run a limiting strap on the passenger side if the steering is binding under full droop. Also to call me back to make sure he has his alignment bushings in correctly, and to talk to me so we can figure out what is happening. As far as the thickness on the arm, the sharp radiuses and the material... that is not the problem. The failer shown here has happened before, and everytime the steering had bound. Before you start another rag on Avalanche thread, please lay out all the information. Thank you, Clifton

Originally posted by BRUISER-42
I had a very nice talk with Vinney this morning, your freind. Important information left out in the opening paragraph. The arm spacers were drilled 10 thousands to large, thus making the mounting sloppy and prone to break. Vinney was aware of this. We gave him, no charge these junk spacers telling him not to drive on the street, to continually check the torque and that they had a high degree of failer. He accepted that, but was desperate for a weekend run that was going to help promote his shop. Why did we send him defective spacers? Because we were out of our normal spacers and I gave the defective ones, to help him out. We are sending him the correctly machined spacers on Tues.
As far as the arm being bent, the steering must be under a bind to create this distortion. I told Vinney that he may have to run a limiting strap on the passenger side if the steering is binding under full droop. Also to call me back to make sure he has his alignment bushings in correctly, and to talk to me so we can figure out what is happening. As far as the thickness on the arm, the sharp radiuses and the material... that is not the problem. The failer shown here has happened before, and everytime the steering had bound. Before you start another rag on Avalanche thread, please lay out all the information. Thank you, Clifton

Seems to me that some ( i said some ) people are having trouble with inferior parts but mostly inferior service. From your comments it seems that you did great customer service, but lots of people on this board are scarred from previous shitty service. In any business, the owner sets the pace. Get your customers their shit when you say you will and send them the right stuff and you wont see comments like these being made. Bad business to a viewer or member of this board is financial suicide. Good luck!

I ordered some rod ends from Avalanche and there was a problem with UPS having my zip code referenced wrong. He took care of it as soon as I gave him a call, sent the order out again with Saturday delivery and called Sat afternoon to make sure I had gotten them. More of the guys who have been treated great by Avalanche need to speak up...

Thanks Clifton.

CJ

Originally posted by Daniel
Reply from Avalanche. Wow all information sure helps!



thanks for the responce Clifton.

Maybe we can have a pre qualifier for posting threads against companies.

Maybe ... we can Call (not email) the Owner/s and get a response before we libel another company before the facts are laid out. Seems to me that Avalanche has been up to the plate twice and was not guilty! Thanks to Clifton for being the Man of the situation.

That's funny since most of the complaints seem to be about companies not answering the phone or calling people back. Anyway, did I miss something - I thought they were guilty the last time?

Keep posting your complaints - and your compliments for that matter. Since the vendors seem to be on the board, they can defend themselves in a case like this where some of the facts appear to have been missing.

I am still interested to hear Avalanches response to BillVista's question.

Chuck - Not a present or future customer of any of these high $$ shops - I'm way too cheap;)

Okay...I'll chime in with a POSITIVE story...Ordered my D60 rock-ring w/link tab, and some rod-ends on Monday...Kurt? said the parts would ship Tuesday...Called Tuesday to confirm and spoke with Clifton...He looked it up and the parts shipped Monday *early*....He gave me the tracking number, and looked it up on the web for me even after I said "don't worry about it, I'll do it"...He's aware of the issues, and as any good business owner would, is taking corrective action(s) + hiring two more employees'. My $ still goin' to Avalanche...My .02...

--D

Originally posted by BRUISER-42
I had a very nice talk with Vinney this morning, your freind. Important information left out in the opening paragraph. The arm spacers were drilled 10 thousands to large, thus making the mounting sloppy and prone to break. Vinney was aware of this. We gave him, no charge these junk spacers telling him not to drive on the street, to continually check the torque and that they had a high degree of failer. He accepted that, but was desperate for a weekend run that was going to help promote his shop. Why did we send him defective spacers? Because we were out of our normal spacers and I gave the defective ones, to help him out. We are sending him the correctly machined spacers on Tues.
As far as the arm being bent, the steering must be under a bind to create this distortion. I told Vinney that he may have to run a limiting strap on the passenger side if the steering is binding under full droop. Also to call me back to make sure he has his alignment bushings in correctly, and to talk to me so we can figure out what is happening. As far as the thickness on the arm, the sharp radiuses and the material... that is not the problem. The failer shown here has happened before, and everytime the steering had bound. Before you start another rag on Avalanche thread, please lay out all the information. Thank you, Clifton




1. As I stated before, not my jeep. I was very clear on that. I saw the final outcome of what seemed to be a twist in an arm that should not have twisted according to you.
2. That’s great you are stepping up and sending the correct parts. Maybe he has also learned not to be so hastily to go and have fun when he knows there could be a potential problem with breakage.
3. How can you (Avalanche Engineering ) stand/sit there and say that material thickness, and sharp radiuses in a highly stressed part, will not weaken the design? Pleez, :rolleyes:
4. Once again, glad you and he worked this out, I posted because I saw what I saw.

What is the question? Do our arms utilize conicalwashers, the 44 arms always have. :)

Bertha, We never sent him the wrong parts, and I said the design was not the problem. Every part has a failer point and different stress points.

Wow. For a second there, it looked like this thread was gonna turn into "What have you broken when wheelin with Bertha" or "Has Bertha ever gotten past the trailhead on a run with you" or even "Has Bertha's 4ROLLER ever made through an entire trail?" HAHAHAHAHA I can't believe he bent that arm that bad! How long did you take to come up with a trail fix? What grade were the bolts that he sheared?

Tell Vinny that never would have happened if he had just gone IFS. It's the wave of the future donchano! It's okay though, I'll take his Jeep off his hands for you... No charge. I'll even come pick it up. :flipoff2: Is your 4Wreck gonna make it up to Phoenix this weekend? Or are you gonna bring the Grandma-mobile?

Originally posted by BRUISER-42
What is the question? Do our arms utilize conicalwashers, the 44 arms always have. :)


Quote from BillaVista Page 1 of this thread:
This is a very good example of why the conical washers are used to produce a zero-clearance inteference fit.

I posted some good tech on it in a question where I asked Clifton hinself why they felt it wasn;t necessary to employ this technique...guess waht? he never answered my question

You might dig it out with a search.

Buy elsewhere - fawk the warranty - who wants another trail failure.

Look into OTT, Roggy, Parts Mike, etc.
end Quote

And the question you asked, I stated it on my response to yours. Right there, #3
3. How can you (Avalanche Engineering ) stand/sit there and say that material thickness, and sharp radiuses in a highly stressed part, will not weaken the design? Pleez,

Originally posted by crashinaz


Bertha's SO trail breakdown prone... Good lord. His truck died on the dirt road back to my tow rig... Then it died the NEXT day on Lower Woodpecker... :rolleyes: Good thing he's got that toolbox... He NEEDS it...

I've been wondering why he carries so gawd dam many tools! I should have figured it out after wheelin with him twice. Of course, both times that we've actually gotten to the trail, for some reason it's the Jeeps that have problems. His Jeep got stuck up in the mountains overnight, another jeep slid off the side of the road, and now this jeep? hmm...

I too would like to see a thorough answer to ALL the questions posed to Clifton. Seems like a lot of beating around the bush ( ha ha that could be a funny reference ) when it comes to straight complete answers.

I do have one question though, are there any customer service problems with the other store? I haven't heard of any. I still say steve is a dick ( attitude ) but if his customer service is better then customers should call his store.

Originally posted by McSoo


I've been wondering why he carries so gawd dam many tools!

I'm definitely not knocking it... I had to use about half of the tools in there. :D A word to the wise though... Bertha puts dill pickles over one year past their expiration date on the sandwiches he hands out on the trail. :barf: Poor ZUK... :D

Originally posted by crashinaz


I'm definitely not knocking it... I had to use about half of the tools in there. :D A word to the wise though... Bertha puts dill pickles over one year past their expiration date on the sandwiches he hands out on the trail. :barf: Poor ZUK... :D

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Oh man that was gross :barf: At least he did not get sick from eating those things :eek: :eek:

Wow.. I'm glad I didn't have any food while I was over helping you fix your gas tank... geez... who knows how old the beer would have been that you offered! :) And more importantly, what would have been in the beer you offered! HAHAHA

ugh, year old pickles? blech!

so talk to me guys... do i order a set of arms for my 60 from them or not:confused: parts mike system is like a stock tj where the tie rod ties into the centerlink.wagaoner are way too much,dynatrac-fawk them nevere ever buy from them....need some help

I hear of two problems, 1. BOLTS:confused: 2. 1/2" bolts, why?
Stock they are 9/16". If the knuckles are not flat and the spacers
and the arms can move at all :nuke:
I' m not so sure the arms are at fault, it bent probably because
the bolt in front broke, then the next one back broke. Just my .02

Rock Hugger, after talking more to Vinney today that was also our conclusion, that the bolts failed then the arm bound. Also the arms do use 9/16 bolts. Clifton

Bruiser, this all happened because you guys stopped selling the good mis-alignment spacers. You need to return to the style that necks down to a smaller size bolt and is shaped like an hour glass. I have a set of these that I got from you guys and they have worked great and seem to be beefier than the style that you sent to swamper502. The new ones dont allow for as much mis-alignment as the old one did. I do not see how the arm could have bent after the bolts had broken. It must have happened due to binding in the steering system. Other than that comment I have have never had a problem with your guys service but I have to admit that you phone system is irritating. The faster you get that fixed the faster these kinds of problems will get cleared up.