First of all let me say that CTM u-joints are probably one of the best things since spicer invented u-joints:D I just got back from a club meeting and this guy that I know said that he broke a CTM:eek: I have no reason to doubt him and several other club members witnessed it. I am wandering if anyone else has heard of anyone breaking one of these things?This was in a dana 30 no less:rolleyes: in a TJ with a 6 banger. I'm thinking it was just a fluke because I thought no one had ever broken one?Whatever.....Let the flames begin:nuke:

Better show some pics.:)

Sorry I don't have any, but I wish that I did! He said that he had already sent it back anyways. I'll have to see if he got any pictures of it.:rasta:

they arent gauranteed for shit unless you have alloy axles:eek:

Ya he was running Warn axles and he said that the splines were twisted like mad also:nuke:

Haven't heard of one breaking yet. I guess I will call Jack tomorrow and find out if it's true.

in the words of camo
PICS!!:D

yep pic's - jack builds the absolutly best wheel joint around- he beat me to building these and also made them better than the one's i was going for- there's no reason to doubt the man- he is top notch-Jess:D

We're all waiting............................


That's what i thought, no pics.
To break on a d30 with warns, i'll bet IF it broke it was a fluke. I can see jack laughing right now. But even if it did, it's lifetime warranty baby. Was he running 48 inch tires and a 700 hp supercharged 6 cylinder?

i find it a little hard to believe!! we really gotta see some pics of sheared off ears or something. if it did break i would chalk it up to some kind of fault in the original chunk of metal. i just dont see how any axle shaft could hold up to one of those joints without the shaft losing!!

I'd love to hear some details or see a pic or 2. If Lance or Kelly can't break 'em, I'm sceptical of one breaking in a D30 with a 6cyl.

Originally posted by Rubicrawler
I'd love to hear some details or see a pic or 2. If Lance or Kelly can't break 'em, I'm sceptical of one breaking in a D30 with a 6cyl.

Ditto, I too have thrashed on them without carnage, 350 power with 16" wide Boggers and LOTS of skinny peddle even to the point of just being abusive...whole Jeep bouncing up and down still on the gas :D :D

We're all waiting............................

I'm sure you are:flipoff2: Like I said before I dont' have any:rasta: I didn't break it so I can't control who took pics of it. Also I don't want this to turn into a situation where you guys are turning on me and calling me a liar:emb: I already said that I wasn't there and all I have to go on is what the guy told me and what other club members told me.

yep pic's - jack builds the absolutly best wheel joint around- he beat me to building these and also made them better than the one's i was going for- there's no reason to doubt the man- he is top notch-Jess

Yes I already have said that I believe CTM's are the best thing out there....you're preaching to the quire Jesse:D



i find it a little hard to believe!! we really gotta see some pics of sheared off ears or something. if it did break i would chalk it up to some kind of fault in the original chunk of metal. i just dont see how any axle shaft could hold up to one of those joints without the shaft losing!!

Yes I said already that the guy told me the Warn shaft had twisted splines:rasta:

desertCJ- I don't think anyone is calling you a liar. It's just that this is the first we've heard of a CTM failing and we would all love to have some more details. Many of us are saving our lunch money for a pair of CTM's so any additional input you could provide would be very helpfull. But, if you don't have it, you don't have it. No problem.

Thanks for the CTM update :)

Don't get me wrong....I'm still trying how I can get away with robbing a back so I can get a set of them suckas:D I was just wandering if anyone else had heard of another ctm joint breaking. I had a hard time believing it as well, but what was I gonna do call half of the club liars:rolleyes: Whatever, the guy is kinda close lipped about the whole thing becuase I guess he got them for free or at a huge discount or something and he said jokingly that Jack was kinda mad at him for breaking one after he kicked down:confused:

Originally posted by desertCJ
Whatever, the guy is kinda close lipped about the whole thing becuase I guess he got them for free or at a huge discount or something and he said jokingly that Jack was kinda mad at him for breaking one after he kicked down:confused:

I'm going to have to say your friend is a liar. If nothing else, I know Jack wouldn't say that. For instance, I "got them for free or at a huge discount or something" and Jack told me to do everything I can to destroy them. Bent a lot of metal, but haven't been able to break the joints yet. Of course... if they had broken I would have stopped a long time before the rest of the carnage happened.... :D:blender:

Paul

I'm going to have to say your friend is a liar. If nothing else, I know Jack wouldn't say that.

Well that's you're perogative:rolleyes: But I can't call half of the club liars as well. You know Jack wouldnt' say what? I never quoted him to saying anything:confused: I'm starting to regret posting this.......it's too much like a sope opra:flipoff2: Everyone takes it soooo seriously that CTM's are absolutely indestructable and that anyone claiming to have broke one is full of shiat. There is a first time for everything....It's not IF it's When something is going to break;) ANYTHING

Originally posted by desertCJ

I'm starting to regret posting this.......

I'm glad you brought it up! We need to know of any failures. If you can possibly get more details from your friend, I, for one, would like to hear them. I'm sure Jack would love to have the feedback as well.

Originally posted by desertCJ


You know Jack wouldnt' say what?

See the full quote in my last post.

I know the CTMs will break. I don't think anyone here believes they're the Holy Grail or that they'll cure cancer. But as with anything else on the internet we're having a hard time finding the truth. You've defended your friend and club members well - why not point him to this thread and see what he has to say? It's not your fight, but you seem to respond to every one posting as if it is. Your honor isn't at stake here... :D Let the friend come forth and get rid of the second hand rumors.

Paul

Whoa,
Everyone calm down.
I jsut talked with jack, he said he did have a set, break.
He is warrantying them and then will have the broken material analyzed so he can possibly see what caused the break.
In any case nothing is unbreakable, thats why the lifetime warranty is so sweet.
Hell I havent been able to break a set, and Ive been brutalizing mine with a pretty strong engine. I still keep a full set of spares though. Like I said anything can break.
But if Jack doesnt have a problem with it, I certainly dont.

I can't beleive that everybody here is Sooooo convinced that it is impossible to break a CTM. I remember when Marlin came out with the Marfields, everyone said that they were indestructible. I think he even sent out a challenge on this very board!!! So much for those...

Just because Lance and Kelly and every other competition wheeler can't break them doesn't meant that a couple won't break every now and then. Maybe there was a manufacturer error or maybe he installed the joints the wrong way. What if he was running the joints dry and the friction heated the crap outta them? Would that compomise the integrity of the joint? Regardless, I think there is enough good press out there to warrant running them (I installed mine last weekend) but there is NO SUCH THING as an indestructible product. It was just a matter of time...

my $.02-

Kinda underlines the problems inherent in second-hand information, no?

I credit the guy who started the thread with at least detailing where the information came from.... problem is that all the other 452 folks who read this will be telling their friends about it and their friends will tell their buddies... Sometimes I hate the internet -- it is so hard to separate the information from the misinformation.... :rolleyes:

Back to the subject at hand: Jack's joints. Based on the hard use I have seen in competition, these joints are worth the money -- in fact, I'd argue that he's charging too little, considering how hard the core metal is to work. His tooling costs have gotta be sky-high, and his margins fairly narrow... I hope he keeps making these parts.


Randii

Ok, just got off the phone with Jack. He did indeed break a ujoint. Jack said that one of the posts broke off. He was perplexed as to how only one broke. He said the axle was destroyed, too. He said he wasn't sure yet if it was a bad forging, but he was sure that it was severely stressed. He said that the driver told him that the tire was stuck/wedged in a hole and a tree root, and wouldn't turn, and the rest of the vehicle kept moving when pow, it let go. So there you have it, straight from the horses mouth. :)

I'm glad that we have the whole story now and just to be sure...my original intent was NEVER to bash Jack or his joints;) I look forward to the day that I can install those jewels in my front axle:smokin: OH ya and I bet that since the forged versions came out that they became cheaper to produce then the fully machined version, so I think they are priced about right for an almost indestructible joint:smokin:

P.S.Nasvik, who's fighting:flipoff2: I"m just a college student with nothing better to do than wrench on my jeep and chill here:rasta:

Originally posted by Lance
Ok, just got off the phone with Jack. He did indeed break a ujoint. Jack said that one of the posts broke off. He was perplexed as to how only one broke. He said the axle was destroyed, too. He said he wasn't sure yet if it was a bad forging, but he was sure that it was severely stressed. He said that the driver told him that the tire was stuck/wedged in a hole and a tree root, and wouldn't turn, and the rest of the vehicle kept moving when pow, it let go. So there you have it, straight from the horses mouth. :)

Well like you said, something had to give. First time for everything. Will i still buy them for my d60, hell yeah!

i still want pics

What a freaking soap opra! :barf:

All ye zealots can now go back to revering, the truth has layed this beast to rest.

Thanks to CJ for bringing the post, and thanks to Lance for calling Jack and getting the scoop.

After getting Jack's permission to post the actual facts. I will do so. First off, How's it going Paul, long time no hear. Get enough skiing in yet?

Secondly, I was less than 20 feet away when Garry broke the joint. He was attempting an option at the top of Outer Limits and need to pull the front over to the left a bit. Into front wheel drive, hard left, and there was a little pop. Instantly out of the throttle to see what broke.

Garry runs a TJ with an upside down stock style steering. Inverted "Y" style. Not the best set-up in the world, but it has mostly worked for quite awhile and Garry is not easy on anything. As a comparison, he broke a 297 doing the same maneuver on a wide flat spot in the trail at another time.

Back to the steering- That style of steering controls the right and left limits by the stop on the opposite side on the inner part of the knuckle. What happens is that you can stuff one side, hard turn the same direction and over rotate the knuckle on one side because the draglink and tie-rod flatten out the angle between them. That effectively makes the tie-rod longer in certain situations.
Much more difficult to do if you have a knuckle to knuckle tie-rod.

That's why only one pin broke. The over rotation of the knuckle let one ear bind against the inner portion of the yoke and snap it off. The axle were new Warn's, survived with no damage other than some seriously twisted splines. I put a Spicer in to finish out the weekend.

Out of respect for Garry and Jack, no pictures were taken. A guy from JP magazine was out there, so we were attempting to limit any news until we could get the peices back to Jack. The joint was taken out of the axles and shipped to Jack for inspection.

It was impressive to see the damage a HP D-30 can do to stuff and survive. Minimum two splines rotation on the Warn's, busted pin on a CTM, and large amounts of fun on Outer Limits. Garry's rig is running a Tera 60R in the rear just to keep up with the 30.

The rest of the equipment is very capable. Atlas II, full roll cage, 35" beadlocked MT/R's, 4:56's with cutting brakes, Detroits front and rear, and enough body damage to keep a body shop busy for a year. BTW, Jack built the 60R, that is a pic of it you see in his axle advertising.

Originally posted by mrblaine
After getting Jack's permission to post the actual facts. I will do so. First off, How's it going Paul, long time no hear. Get enough skiing in yet?

Over 100 days this year....so far....:D Back in SF for a while. We'll see what the summer brings.

Thanks for the full story, Blaine. Guess my end-to-end one ton tie rod conversion was a good thing? :D:beer:

Paul

I still can't get over the dana 30 thing. Thanks for the info, but honestly, how could you expect something not to break when the steering does that?



"The over rotation of the knuckle let one ear bind against the inner portion of the yoke and snap it off."

Originally posted by nasvik


Over 100 days this year....so far....:D Back in SF for a while. We'll see what the summer brings.

Thanks for the full story, Blaine. Guess my end-to-end one ton tie rod conversion was a good thing? :D:beer:

Paul

Good to hear Paul. If your conversion is good, that means mine wasn't a waste either.

Originally posted by Brawler
I still can't get over the dana 30 thing. Thanks for the info, but honestly, how could you expect something not to break when the steering does that?



"The over rotation of the knuckle let one ear bind against the inner portion of the yoke and snap it off."

We expected it not to break because it had not broken the last 40 trips over the hammers. Now that the problem has reared it's ugly little head, a new front axle and steering are on their way under the jeep. HP nine with the small housing, shaved and cut the inner knuckles off the 30 to save money on all the parts we already own.

If you knew Garry, you would know that he pushes it a bit more each time he goes out. Finally reached the limit.

We competed in the first ARCA event in JV and it held just fine.

Originally posted by mrblaine


After getting Jack's permission to post the actual facts.


Out of respect for Garry and Jack, no pictures were taken. A guy from JP magazine was out there, so we were attempting to limit any news until we could get the peices back to Jack. The joint was taken out of the axles and shipped to Jack for inspection.




I didnt realize I needed Jacks permision to post any information.
When I 1st started running the CTMs, Jack and I were both in agreement, that for any type of credibility for endoresing a product, once the testing was complete, that all information could and should be posted, without bias. That means the good the bad and the ugly.
I spoke with Jack before I posted my reply, so that I could find out what he knew, so far about the failed joint.

Moreover,..out of respect for Jack,...Whats that supposed to mean???
I would not even consider that he would want me to ask his permision to disclose whatever info, I gained either 1st hand, or through discussions with him. He is a man of integrity and he is 100% confident in his products reputation,.. he does not need to screen and approve testimonials, concerning his U joints.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by mrblaine
and enough body damage to keep a body shop busy for a year.

Maybe more! :D

You opened my eyes to the strength of the little HP Dana30.

Jes
One of the XJ guys at JV

Originally posted by H8monday
I didnt realize I needed Jacks permision ......:rolleyes:


Ahhh, an island of sanity in a sea of madness... :beer: h8 .

WTF is going on here...:barf:

H8, I apoligize if I have confused you somehow. I should learn to speak more clearly. I have misconstrued the terms respect and permission somehow, and need to find a way to clear that up.

Jack is a friend, I have massive respect for him as a business owner, friend, wheelin' buddy, and machinist. The last thing I am going to do, is to run and blab bullshit of any kind any where without talking to him first. Sorry you don't see it that way.
I also don't mean to imply that Jack had any input into the story. I just wanted to discuss it with him first. It is as I said. There were several out there that saw the aftermath.

It is also as you stated. You guys are encouraged to report the good, bad, and the ugly. That has not and will not change. You all know that.

Jack is only interested in bringing the best product to the customer that he is capable of. Something that practically no one on this board needs to be reminded of. A breakage is important to him to figure out what happened and how to prevent it. Due to our discussions, the install directions will be modified to reflect the possibility of breakage with improper steering stops. We made the mistake, not the joint. We are correcting that, and I consider it fairly important info to let others know how to not break one of theirs. Jack will replace it, but I'm not really certain he should.

I also run CTM's and after we broke Garry's, I checked my yoke bind and steering stops. Shouldn't we all?

Once more, I am sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by mrblaine
...Jack will replace it, but I'm not really certain he should.



That means it would be the dreaded "Limited Lifetime Warranty" that we all hate to hear. :D (I completely understand your point though)

One broken joint out of how many sold? 99.9% success rate still looks good to me. :D

Sounds like a joint made out of indestructabilium(The newest element found deep in the heart of Johnson Valley) would have busted:flipoff2: I think that there was probably nothing wrong with the CTM just that it was bound on the shaft or whatever. I never was too crazy about those tj steering linkages:rasta:

I saw the failed joint myself and was surprised where it failed. It was destroyed and the ears on the shafts looked fine. Course Garry and mrblaine didn't want me to take any pictures (along with the JP writer).

I have more faith in my RR D30 in my XJ after seeing that break. Yeah, you should stop turning the wheel when you get to the end of the travel. But with a truss on the passenger side limiting axle/diff movement and a stout cover to keep the diff from spreading, the D30 with alloy/CTM is a nice axle.

SeanP

Originally posted by randii
... these joints are worth the money -- in fact, I'd argue that he's charging too little, ...

:eek: :eek: SHHH!! I haven't bought mine yet!!

hell, i'm still buying a set for my 60 when it is done!!

like we always say, everything breaks, it is just how often it breaks that I am concerned with, I am sick of replacing stuff evertime out, these I am more than confident I will not have to replace everytime out!!

Originally posted by SeanP
I saw the failed joint myself and was surprised where it failed. It was destroyed and the ears on the shafts looked fine. Course Garry and mrblaine didn't want me to take any pictures (along with the JP writer).

I have more faith in my RR D30 in my XJ after seeing that break. Yeah, you should stop turning the wheel when you get to the end of the travel. But with a truss on the passenger side limiting axle/diff movement and a stout cover to keep the diff from spreading, the D30 with alloy/CTM is a nice axle.

SeanP

So this Dana 30 RR was wearing a Truss? Can you elaborate on the truss some. Im doing the same thing.. Dana RR30 in my TJ... I dont push as hard as the one who broke the CTM so If I run simular truss setup..... then I should be good as gold.

Anything can be broken. Anyone that tells you different is trying to sell you something.

I was there with the rest of the XJ crowd, saw the joint in question, and can say that it was definitely a steering stop issue. The inner and outer shafts both showed signs of interference with each other, so it is clear to me that it was not a power or tire size issue, but a clearance issue.

I have complete faith and confidence in my CTM's and my 44. Our group ran some of the toughest trails in the southwest over a 10 day period, and we were all doing some pretty stupid things with our rigs. I never even gave my front axle system a second thought.....it's nice to have the confidence to follow anyone up anything, without fear of breakage........

Thanks for setting it straight, Blaine, and nice to meet ya.....

Andy