OK, FarfenZOOKen-stein is slowly comin' to life. Here's my first test of the flex as of last night.

No driveshafts
No brakelines
No shocks
No limiting strap
And yes, it has an issue or two that I need to work out, see below...





Here it comes....:D




Are you ready?...






It's pretty wacky...:emb:





http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/754615-frontend.jpg

The front end has plenty of flex, but it's too eager to drop down. The rear has even longer buggy-leaves, but they never get a chance to open due to the front being too loose (and the natural flex of the YJ springs). I have (as stated in the pic) a *retaining* spring leaf under the buggy-leaf, whose sole job is to slow down the drop of the buggy-leaf, without retaining articulation. Obviously, I need to put several more under it, staggered just like a normal spring pack. That should require more weight to open up that front end, giving the rear a chance to open up. I really want to build a balanced suspension here. A little tweakin' should do the trick.

I also plan on installing a limiting strap in the dead center of the of the front axle. It's job will be to limit axle DROOP, not articulation!

That pivot is really doin' it's job, and I'm pretty excited about that. The shackle-reversal config should help dampen the wierdness the pivot is gonna introduce. I'm installing some beefy locking pins to lock the pivot in place for road juants.

Seeing how well the front pivot works, it would be interesting to build a rig with one on both the front and the back. A cool thing I noticed with this config last night is the lack of suspension steering. With the pivot doin' its job, and since there are no control arms, there is no roll axis to pull the axle one way or another.

OK, let the heckling begin! :D

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: holy shit, thats some nasty ass setup!!!!!!!!! mint idea but ya think its a bit TOO much flex??????? looks mint though

AAAIIII KARUMBA!:cool: :cool: :cool:
dude! pretty nifty lookin':beer:
even if you get heckled so much your ears burn at night (:D ) damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!
it's so cool to see something different from the norm.*




*and that's saying a lot, with all the other cool build up rigs i've seen since finding this place:)

i really like the enginuity and the work looks superb but my prediction is that you are going to spend a lot of time with either the pivot of the buggy leafs pinned up. real world rock-crawling has funny ways of making suspension ideas not work. i dont want to sound like a sour pants or anything so i am sorry if i come across that way. i want to see it on the trail and see it work!! what are the next mods?!?

Originally posted by UZI 9mm
it's so cool to see something different from the norm. and that's saying a lot, with all the other cool build up rigs i've seen since finding this place:)

Thanks Uzi, that's one of the main reasons I went with that setup; it's different. I appreciate the compliment!

Originally posted by ppillard
Seeing how well the front pivot works, it would be interesting to build a rig with one on both the front and the back.

Just one question... wouldn't that make for some -severe- body lean?:eek:

i really like the enginuity and the work looks superb but my prediction is that you are going to spend a lot of time with either the pivot of the buggy leafs pinned up. real world rock-crawling has funny ways of making suspension ideas not work. i dont want to sound like a sour pants or anything so i am sorry if i come across that way. i want to see it on the trail and see it work!!

I totally understand, and I'm lookin' forward to trail testing it too. The pivot does work, as it was originally Tim Porter's idea, but it hasn't been used with rediculously long buggy-leaves before. It will be interesting to see how it all works out.


what are the next mods?!?

Well, I've been building this from the frame up. It presently sports a VW 1.6L turbo diesel, mated to a 'yota 4-spd tranny. Dual 'yota married t-cases with marlin crawler gears are really the next mod. Gotta scrounge up the duckets tho.

Originally posted by billjohn


Just one question... wouldn't that make for some -severe- body lean?:eek:

I'm not sure on this. It still has solid mounts to lean on, and I don't think it would be any worse than a full coil setup. But I would like to *test* it out. It is a big expiriment, so I just gotta keep that attitude in the event of failure.:rolleyes:

That white paint you see on the fender is the marks where I'm choppin' the fenders flat. I have the other side chopped, which is why I stuffed that tire into the well, with all the extra room. I'm presently up to my ears in body work!

That's cool. There's a guy down here who runs a buggy called 'Twister", it uses one leaf spring mounted across the front of the buggy. It seems to work real good, I have seen pics with the axle damn near 90 degrees to the ground:eek: So how are you going to keep the driveshaft from binding up at the front u-joint?

What are you going to run for shocks?

That's way cool, mang.

Looking forward to seeing what you do for a flat fender look. :D

You think you'll be replacing those "helper" springs in the front very often?

Seems to me they will be the troublesome link of the setup (fatigue). Short length combined with lots of movement means more cycles to affect the metal. I guess you'll want to keep the lower part of the buggy well greased to - help smooth out the movement,

It'll be worth it of course, but I wouldn't be surprised to see you replacing a few of those a season.

r@m

Originally posted by fatkid
What are you going to run for shocks?

I have some pro-comp ES 3000's that came off the Blazer that donated the axles and rims :D . They're really stiff, and I'm hoping to run them at a heavy angle. Since they're so stiff (designed for a stiff, heavy rig), it should dampen nicely even at such funky angles (due to my rig's lack of weight), and not hamper my flex. That's the theory anyway.

Originally posted by Root Moose
You think you'll be replacing those "helper" springs in the front very often?

r@m

Yeah, I think that is likely as well. The only question is how often will I actually have that buggy-leaf out? I'm hopin' they'll last a while before they need replacing. If I could get some sort of plastic dampener to place in between the leaves, I would. I've been stewing on this for while, and I haven't come up with any awe-inspiring solution.

DUDE, you gotta bring that thing up to Disney when you get it running!!!

:) Roll-over hill is calling your name.. :)

ppillard - try me, try me, try me...... :D :D

Or even better, the off camber section of Hay's Pass (aka purple headed monster) at Clayton! That'll be exciting. :D :D

Originally posted by ppillard


... If I could get some sort of plastic dampener to place in between the leaves, I would. ...

You might try thin sheets of UHMW, available from most plastices outfits, and or course McMaster-Carr.

BTW: that should be #100! I suppose now I'll be a "newbie" Wheeler:D

How long did you make your wheelbase?

How in the heck will you get shocks long enough???:D

That's CRAZY FLEX, man! :rasta:

Originally posted by RudeZuk
How long did you make your wheelbase?

I slid the front axle forward 10.5", I think it's around 87.5" now. I can't remember the stock sami wb off the top of my head. Anyone, anyone?

Originally posted by ppillard
I slid the front axle forward 10.5", I think it's around 87.5" now. I can't remember the stock sami wb off the top of my head. Anyone, anyone?

You should be about 90" now....

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER
How in the heck will you get shocks long enough???:D


Hey OilBurner!

I plan on using really stiff shocks at a silly angle. If you scroll up a bit, you'll see the details on a previous post.

Once I get the engine started and sufficiently tested, I plan on doin' the SVO conversion, Oil. Have you done that to your diesel, yet?

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler
So how are you going to keep the driveshaft from binding up at the front u-joint?

Sorry Chris, I missed this question the first time I read thru your post.

I don't think I'm gonna have a binding problem with the d-shaft. The pivot not only pushes down on one side, but pulls up on the other, keeping the center droop to a minimum. This is why I'm choppin' the fenders so much. Further more, there is very little or no axle rolling happening, since BOTH of the spring mounts are drooping down in time with each other, with no roll axis like a contol-arm config. But, once I get this other fender chopped out, I'll pull the left tire up and see for sure.

I would think about putting the 9000's in there with the incab controller......an easy way to control some flex

Hey! I just noticed your rear wheel tubs, did you do that mod? If so, what tubs did you use, and do you have any tips to pass on for people who are planning on doing this? :D

you have any pics of the other side?
I would like to check out where you opened the wheel well on the rear, withthe filler tube

Right side...Looks like he hasn't done the filler yet.

Im thinking about extending my wheelbase a few inches, but im worried about the Filler Nosle....And the gas tank witht he D44 Pumpkin?

Originally posted by RudeZuk
Im thinking about extending my wheelbase a few inches, but im worried about the Filler Nosle....And the gas tank witht he D44 Pumpkin?

How about a fuel cell?

Originally posted by RudeZuk
Im thinking about extending my wheelbase a few inches, but im worried about the Filler Nosle....And the gas tank witht he D44 Pumpkin?

With a good heavy diff cover, it'll make it's own room... ;)

Seriously, there is room between the skid and the actual tank. I've 'known' a few who did a little 'massage' work and got over 1/2 inch.... Maybe some more if you don't mind loosing 1/10 of a gallon.. :)

I still use a back seat...
I may have to extend my front out some?
Or even an inch each way?

Im at 82" right now....I would like to get closer to 90"....
Ive tried to go up a few rock wall steps lately and I can lift both front tires off of the ground doing it.

Originally posted by dangerber
Hey! I just noticed your rear wheel tubs, did you do that mod? If so, what tubs did you use, and do you have any tips to pass on for people who are planning on doing this? :D

I built mine myself. It was the first time I'd ever done that type of work, and they aren't perfect by any means. My tips are as follows:

Cut out your fender first, leaving an inch of extra sheet metal.
Slice out tabs to the edge of your pattern, bend them in 90* to allow for the seating and welding of your fender.
Install your tops next, using your leg to bend them to match your pattern.
once you have it positioned where you want it, tack in place.
Next, fab your inner wall to match the contour of the top that you just installed. Weld'er up.
When welding, use a mig, with all the settings at their slowest and lowest, use 16 guage sheetmetal, and weld fast, especially when your tryin' to weld to the stock fender sheetmetal!

I'd actually done the filler tube a long time ago on my original rig, when I put buggy-leaves on it. I had to chop off the original throat from the tank, weld up the hole, and make a new one on the top of it. I then re-ran the filler tube from under the frame to thru the bed. I have all the parts for the filler tube, but I have to modify it slightly to accept the bigger, diesel nozzle port.

well keep us posted with pics on your finishing mods....Im always interested in new ideas that people have with there rigs!

first of all that thing looks damn awesome. youre going hydraulic steering right? as for brake lines I've been thinking. what about a t-case mounted disc brake instead of brakes on the axles? I'm building a whole new x-member for my t-case so I'm gonna try it. I've got a rotor drilled out for the pattern and some ifs toy calipers from a solid axle swap I'll just run 2 calipers on 1 rotor on the rear of the case. am I crazy? any ideas?

THAT'S COOL BUT MINE IS BETTER !

Originally posted by ROCKILLER
first of all that thing looks damn awesome. youre going hydraulic steering right? as for brake lines I've been thinking. what about a t-case mounted disc brake instead of brakes on the axles? I'm building a whole new x-member for my t-case so I'm gonna try it. I've got a rotor drilled out for the pattern and some ifs toy calipers from a solid axle swap I'll just run 2 calipers on 1 rotor on the rear of the case. am I crazy? any ideas?

i think you are a little crazy with that idea....An ebrake on the Tcase is onething.....relying on your tcase for your brakes..........Nuts!!!

Is this thing going to be a trailer queen or street driven sometimes???

Originally posted by samazuki
THAT'S COOL BUT MINE IS BETTER !



:D :D :D :D :D :D
I wondered when you'd chime in with your usual positivity!:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by ROCKILLER
as for brake lines I've been thinking. what about a t-case mounted disc brake instead of brakes on the axles?

Well, I'm a little reserved about this since you would have to be in 4wd drive for your front brakes to work. I wanna run the 2Lo option, and front brakes are handy without having to rely on your t-case. Let us know how it works tho!

Originally posted by weezman1
Is this thing going to be a trailer queen or street driven sometimes???

To answer your question completely, I have to say "yes!":D . I know it sounds crazy, but I've got a lot of ideas on how to make this beast road worthy. Not too hard, either.

There's too many wussy 'heeps' rollin' around the streets here that need to meet the superior Samurai!

:D :D :D

Originally posted by ROCKILLER
as for brake lines I've been thinking. what about a t-case mounted disc brake instead of brakes on the axles?
You might want to talk to a few of the guys running Rockwells before you make that jump. There are some significant drawbacks to drive line brakes....

1 - If you run a locker in the rear (real one), remember the "Detroit is 1/3 turn" rule.... My buddy with the 44's realized that means it rolls almost 4 FEET before the locker hits! Not much fun when you try to gently roll off a ledge. :eek:

2 - You put some major stress on the axles and R&P. Think of slamming on the brakes and getting a little wheel hop. Ka boom! :nuke:

3 - Then of course there's the, broken u-joint, OH SH!T NO BRAKES!!!!

But hey, give it a try. I'll keep my distance.. :D :D

Just got your email, it looks like you are getting all the flex you wanted and then some. i am sure you will find a happy medium. it looks like it coming along strong. i just picked up the tranny for the new buggy. but it wont flex anything like yours. i am just using yjs that have been inboarded. decided to move the wheelbase to 100 from 96 just to help on the big ledges. i picked up a set of ford lighting rims to mount the new 37x12.5x17 bfg on. and got some seats and belts at the swap meet last week for it. so i should start putting it together this weekend. i need it going by memorial day to try it out in clayton before we head up to cass for the prorocks. mike

First off, DAYAMMMN!! But FATKID's got a point, shocks! You may want to give SWAY-A-WAY a call as they make shocks in 17 inch travel versions versions for long travel, full bodied trucks. Running your shocks at a ridiculous angle would be similar to not running them at all.
Second, what did you use for the front pivot? Also, no plans for a winch? I'm worried that the front pivot may not be happy with the rigors of real world wheelin'. But please don't let me discourage you. You have some really good ideas. But just make sure it isn't going to be something you'll need to pick up off of the trail and throw in the back of your truck!:D
I also think you may have driveshaft bind when the pass side drops that 6 feet or so of travel.

Whoops, I just went back and noticed that you DID indeed have a winch on there already. Cool. But I am still curious to know what the front pivot consits of. Is it going to handle the axle wrap at full droop? How about smashin' into a rock at momentum?
But it is cool that you were able to beat the "walking" of the axle under flex.

The front pivot is a 7500 lb hub from a farm implement. It *should* hold up nicely.:cool: And I do have a Ramsey REP 8k, and the roller fairlead is already mounted on the rig, you can see it in the pic, just above the pivot. I will call up those shock people you mentioned, thanks. The reason I'm pondering the shocks at the wacky angle is due to ther stiffness and my lightness, which should balance out to nice-ness:) . But, as with so many other things on this rig, we'll see.

I also think you may have driveshaft bind when the pass side drops that 6 feet or so of travel. [/B]

Chris already brought this up. I gave my theories on the whole thing there. It's a few posts up. I'd type it all again, but my wife is wantin' me to come to bed. Night guys!

Mount the shocks on a cantilever, that way you can get more wheel travel throught the ratio of the cantilever.

Like the pic in this thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49968

Originally posted by coiledbj42
Mount the shocks on a cantilever, that way you can get more wheel travel throught the ratio of the cantilever.

There was a truck at the 44 run with rear shocks done that way. He looked like a pogo stick going up tower hill at Poteau.... If you do that you'll have to run a stiff (or dual) shock to overcome the leverage of the cantilever! That really should not be necessary, a 9012 has almost 14" of travel. If it's located properly, that is an AMAZING amount of flex!

Awesome, talk about thinking outside of the square. A couple of questions/comments.
What are you using for the pivot and how is it controlled/bushed
with all that front travel you are going to be hard pressed to match it in the rear which could lead to some interesting weight shifts when climbing over rocks and ruts.
What sort of twisting are the buggy leaves going to go through, surely with that much flex they are going to be doing some nasty twisting and once you get one wheel jammed up against something with a bit of force behind I fear one of the buggy leaves will let go.
Shocks can only lay over so far to get the extra length before they kust become a piece of metal bolted on, they need to provide some dampening so you may have to chase down some mighty long shocks like some old man emu racing shocks or Kings

But cool idea nicely done it will be great to see it on the trail with all the little niggles sorted out.

Originally posted by grimbo
Shocks can only lay over so far to get the extra length before they kust become a piece of metal bolted on, they need to provide some dampening so you may have to chase down some mighty long shocks like some old man emu racing shocks or Kings


Just thinking out loud here...

An option might be to get some "normal" shocks acting through a bellcrank to effectively double their range.

JAT

r@m

Originally posted by Root Moose


Just thinking out loud here...

An option might be to get some "normal" shocks acting through a bellcrank to effectively double their range.

JAT

r@m


:) there was an interesting blurb on something ~vaguely~ similar to this (at least *I* found it interesting...:D ) a while back in the general 4x4 section, to do with a guy experimenting with a triple shock idea : one above two below directly in line on the vertical plane. never did find out the end result of the thread.
if i can overcome sloth and lethargy i will try to backtrack and find it.:D

Originally posted by UZI 9mm
:) there was an interesting blurb on something ~vaguely~ similar to this (at least *I* found it interesting...:D ) a while back in the general 4x4 section, to do with a guy experimenting with a triple shock idea : one above two below directly in line on the vertical plane. never did find out the end result of the thread.
if i can overcome sloth and lethargy i will try to backtrack and find it.:D

I've seen pictures of that as well. I think it was two down, one up with a pinned connection in the middle that slid in a frame. Or something like that. :)

r@m

Originally posted by Root Moose


I've seen pictures of that as well. I think it was two down, one up with a pinned connection in the middle that slid in a frame. Or something like that. :)

r@m


well what do ya know?
newbies take note: the search really DOES work, and i have just benefitted from using it:flipoff2:

original author : rokcrln

post: "two shocks tied as one long shock?"

date: 12-04-2001




*smug mode* on:D lol

ps:eek: poor/confusing wording.... i used your quote Root- but none of the newbie comments/flipoffs etc were directed at you- just in case you're getting ready to ream me out for slagging you hahahaha:D :p

Originally posted by UZI 9mm



well what do ya know?
newbies take note: the search really DOES work, and i have just benefitted from using it:flipoff2:



Yeah but you didnt leave us a link, so now we have to use the search button, or ask for a link :p

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17085&highlight=two+shocks+tied+as+one+long+shock ;)

What about damping the the pivot beam itself? Still have shocks for the axle, but severly damp the pivot action independantly - should help roll-action. Air shocks with individual controls for sidehill silliness, maybe? Hey, what is the SVO convesion? My diesel is still stock ('95 VW1.9idi turbo). SVO intercooler maybe? I have been considering a watercooled intercooler - with a fan on the remote exchanger, it would be less dependent on moving the vehicle to cool the intercooler, and a more direct(efficient) path could be run for the intake of intercooled air.

what about some type of torsion bar in your front pivot?
this might help calm it down some

Originally posted by DougO


Yeah but you didnt leave us a link, so now we have to use the search button, or ask for a link :p


well DUH.:flipoff2: lazy ass newbie, that was the whole POINT of my post. just because *I* benefitted from using the search, didn't mean i'd do all your work for you.;)
and NO, i'm not gonna help with yer potty training either.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Erik Dossett
What about damping the the pivot beam itself? Still have shocks for the axle, but severly damp the pivot action independantly - should help roll-action. Air shocks with individual controls for sidehill silliness, maybe?

Well, I was gonna test it without any dampening before I add to it. The body still has solid points to lean on in off-camber situations (Both front and rear springs have a solid mount each). This, *I believe*, should make this setup even a bit more stable than a full coil system. But we'll see.


Hey, what is the SVO convesion? My diesel is still stock ('95 VW1.9idi turbo). SVO intercooler maybe? I have been considering a watercooled intercooler - with a fan on the remote exchanger, it would be less dependent on moving the vehicle to cool the intercooler, and a more direct(efficient) path could be run for the intake of intercooled air.

A SVO conversion is converting your diesel to run on Straight Vegetable Oil. It's 100% cleaner for the environment, better for your engine, and you can get used veggie oil from resturaunts for FREE. Makes your exhaust smell like whatever was cooked in the oil. I have a diesel chevette that I've converted to SVO. If you want more info, go to VeggieVan.com (http://www.veggievan.org) or Greasel.com (http://www.greasel.com). Fascinating info on those sites.

I do have an intercooler I'm installing on this engine, and it will require a hood scoop. That'll look good and weird on a sami. I've already installed RaceWare headstuds to handle the rigors of uppin' the boost, and I got's me a nice pretty K&N filter to run a nice fat intake. Exhaust is gettin' opened up too. This should put both my HP and torque between 140 and 150.

In regards to shocks. I've been doin' a lot of thinkin' and a lot of eyeballin' and I think I'm gonna run cantilever shocks, with a dual shock setup for each (cantilever shocks without a second shock is a useless shock). This should yeild me 20+" of travel, and should dampen nicely, as they will have a more straight approach rather than angled. This means I'll have to find some place else to mount my air tank. Damn.