axle wrap after shackle hanger flip???

[NHRedneck]

has anyone run into issues with axle wrap after doing a sky mfg shackle flip???? im still waiting to get a 4deg shims, but right now just in moving it around my yard, when i first take off there is a noticeable kick that comes from the rear end..... im kinda worried what would happen if i was to really romp on the thing.... and yes i am running shocks, but they need to get relocated....... and yes i know that its coming from the susp, as i can watch the shackle pitch as it happens. if you want pics of the setup its the 79 in my sig.

[Jrod-13]

well. being that your increasing the leafspring angle, it's kinda to be expected.

[kstatecruiser1]

yup, my main leaf has the stereotypical "S" curve to it.

[NHRedneck]

would it help if i put another clamp on the spring pack to hold the smaller leafs together, even though its going to make my springrate stiffer???? i think if i get time this weekend ill just fucking tromp on it and see what happens..... if it doesnt break anything then im just gonna say fuck it and wheel the piss outa it..... if i break something then ill have to do something....

[NetBSD]

would it help if i put another clamp on the spring pack to hold the smaller leafs together, even though its going to make my springrate stiffer???? i think if i get time this weekend ill just fucking tromp on it and see what happens..... if it doesnt break anything then im just gonna say fuck it and wheel the piss outa it..... if i break something then ill have to do something....


why not just put some bars on it to stop wrap?, grab some sch80, heim joints, welder, 1/4" plate steel, drill, some 1/2" grade 8 bolts. alot better then having axle wrap

[domba420]

like netbsd said, it's not a difficult problem to address, and better sooner than later...if you notice it that much just by getting on it on normal flat ground, you will definitely have problems when you take it offroad, just a matter of when. new driveshafts, third members and leaf springs will get expensive quick when you can avoid all that with a simple antiwrap bar

[fj40forlife]

Tracbar will fixs all your problem

[NHRedneck]

could i get away with a Y bar on the top of the axle???? i just got bent over at the steel yard yesterday b/c i needed metal for my wristed arm setup, so the thought of going back any time soon just makes me cringe......

[fj40forlife]

Just make one like this

[NHRedneck]

is that a shackle at the frame end???? if so wouldnt that defeat the control of the axle pitching????

[bremen242]

is that a shackle at the frame end???? if so wouldnt that defeat the control of the axle pitching????

no. it allows the traction bars to flex. the shackle keeps the bar from going up any further, which stops the wrap.

[fj40forlife]

no. it allows the traction bars to flex. the shackle keeps the bar from going up any further, which stops the wrap.



Ya You could hook it up to a crossmember or something. The shackle is there because when you sup. drops. it well pull you axle frowd. But when you having axle wrap. it well just pull on the crossmeb. and stop that axle Turing

[NHRedneck]

couldnt i acheive the same with with a Y bar over the top???? put the single end of the Y on the X memeber, and the 2 ends on the top of the axle.... i would only need one heim at the single end of the Y right??? i could just solid mount the axle ends right? it just seems a hell of alot cheaper and easier when i compare it to the amount of fab involved/ steel used for 2 ladder bars with shackles + heims...... i drew up my idea in paint, and put it up on my cardomain site, at the bottom of page 6

[RawPower]

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/9/web/2145000-2145999/2145548_51.jpg

Wont allow enough travel, suspension will bind when you need to flex... hence the shackles in the previous pictures.

[NHRedneck]

care to skewl me on how/ where the bind will occur???? i just cant seem to fathom that b/c its basically like running the upper half of a proven 3/4 link setup. the reason i dotn follow the shackle idea, is b/c ive never seen that before, ever with a traction bar..... ive only seen them solid mounted with heims/ JJ's on the frame end......

[mj]

it will bind in a few ways.
- the leaf springs move in an arc towards the rear when compressed and your bar moves in an arc forward
- solid mounting it to the housing would add another bind as the suspense rolls or articulates one spring will be moving forward and the other rearward a bit, to move like that your bar will laterally move (or resist movement) the axle

the best setup is the single ladder bar thing shown in this thread with a shackle at one end and being set up to have back n forth movement at the housing

[NHRedneck]

so basically i would need to run a heim/JJ on each end of the Y frame and a shackle at the mount for the crossmember in order for my design to work right??? i really dont want to run lagger bars b/c of them being rock magnets on the type of trails im going to be running

[Halogrinder]

you could just be cheap and use tube with rubber bushings in them at the axle end. it doesnt or will want to flex anywhoo. it would be desirable to have a JJ at the shackle end, to allow the assembly to twist, and the shackle is there to allow the axle to move forward and backwards during its suspension movement. the up and down will just be up and down :D

[mj]

your design doesnt work
if you put a joint at the axle it wont do much to prevent wrap
you need vertical seperation to stop the wrap

there is no reason for a ladder bar to be a rock magnet
it could be used to protect your driveshaft though

[fj40forlife]

The shackle is there because when you jack up your truck. how does your axle go. More closer. IF you mount it with no shackle. and when you puss your truck flex or what not. its just going to break. I seen it use MANY times So I guess It works lol. I haven't had time to make one but I made one for my friends truck haven't had a problem.

[NetBSD]

this is a perfect example how to make a ladder bar, he used a shackle and a heim joint

http://www.birfield.com/~morgan/fj80_locker/TUPP_axle_with_ladder_bar.jpg



here is one with heim's on the axle end for more flex.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/Images/Aut_1991.jpg

[NHRedneck]

ok..... i think i might be able to make that work, and i do like the idea of running it parallel to the D shaft in effort to keep from crunching them.... would 3/8" plate be adequate for the mounting brackets?? if i make a ladder bar, im def going to go with heims at all points

[Halogrinder]

remember there isnt any "flex" there. its a "y"! the ends of the "y" are now solidly bolted down. there will be no flex, or torsion right there! all your flex will be at the front of the "y" where the shackle is.

[NetBSD]

ok..... i think i might be able to make that work, and i do like the idea of running it parallel to the D shaft in effort to keep from crunching them.... would 3/8" plate be adequate for the mounting brackets?? if i make a ladder bar, im def going to go with heims at all points


some 3/8" cold rolled should hold up fine

[Big79'Terry]

NHRedneck- I am also running 4" Sky flip. w/built 429,detroit and new sharp 39.5 TSL's...... Not much hop. I cut old spring plates off, got rid of rear block: block gives ring gear leverage to climb pinion: creating spring wrap. Re-welded new spring plates on @ proper pinion angle & bought new u-bolts. A very simple & satisfying real world fix.
79' One ton Bronc 429 39.5's Detroits- Flings the friggin' Goo!!!

[NHRedneck]

bigterry, ive got a 4 deg shim on the perches to get the angle back to where it was when i began. ive also got the new u bolts, and im only running a 1.5" block under the springs, so ive actually got a block smaller than stock....... i am still running the stock leaf pack.....

[Big79'Terry]

NHRedneck; I forgot to tell ya', I am also using "traction rods". Remember the rugged trail traction bars? Ranco kicker shocks? While they can limit articulation, they do negate spring wrap.
I made my own, use the top spring plate as a guide. Cut a new one out of 5/16 plate. Drill for u-bolts. buy or fabricate rod mount in center of top spring plate. Buy or fabricate a front mount,where the front rear leafs mount. Come up with some large 1" rod, or use a shock. If using rod, weld threaded inserts onto each end for adjustability. You can actually dial in "the "launch". A small amount of spring wrap will help launch ya'.
James Duff still lists them in thier catalog/website. You can get the idea by looking at those. Or buy em', if building your own junk scares ya'.
Ditch the block and tapered shim, they are too easy to "spit out" when really leaning on the skinny pedal. I have also seen newer design lower spring pads for weld on use, that are a couple inches longer than normal. They are calling these "anti wrap spring pads".
Setting your pinion angle w/new spring pads is SIMPLE. You can do it.

[Fordman500]

So I dont get this idea of a shackle on the end? What does it look like and how does it work if the front of the bar can move?

[Halogrinder]

all that shackle does, is allow the traction bar to go up and down ( were talking about the attached side thats on the axle) via the bushings in the shackle,..... the heim joint allows the articulation of the axle do its thing (were talking about the big one that would be at the shackle end)....it also allows the leaf springs to maintain their natural arc motion, since the traction bar has a diffrent arc than the springs. makes sense? if it were solidly mounted, it would bind the rear suspension up.

look in summit. they have these leaf spring slider thingies that ladder bar cars use, when the use leaf springs to hold the vehicle up instead of coil overs. the leaf springs will bind because of the diffrence in arcs that are present.

[NetBSD]

this is what comes to my mind, someone please correct me if im wrong in any way...

http://imnotmark.zapto.org:3030/bar.JPG


EDIT: i think i found a mistake, when moving in reverse it would actually pull up on the bar at the shackle end wouldnt it?

[NHRedneck]

big terry that idea wont fix my issue, as it attaches to the springs...... they are moving too much and that isnt going to keep the axle from twisting..... what i need is a true traction control bar...... like the previous posts have shown..... and ive got an idea on how to do it now....

fordman, it took a lil thinking for me to figure out the shackle too.... the traction bar wants to twist up and down under load/ unload....... the shackle will be anchored and will keep the bar from moving up and down, thus controlling your axle wrap.... the heim on the shackle will allow the susp to droop and compress while still controlling the axle wrap, and supposed to not bind the suspension...

[Fordman500]

Are heims necessary? I have got bushings, and can i build it like a leaf spring shackle? The bottm of the shackle pivtos and the top moves forward and back right?

[fj40forlife]

Are heims necessary? I have got bushings, and can i build it like a leaf spring shackle? The bottm of the shackle pivtos and the top moves forward and back right?


Yes you could Built it with Bushing. But Will limted flex

[fj40forlife]

this is what comes to my mind, someone please correct me if im wrong in any way...

http://imnotmark.zapto.org:3030/bar.JPG


EDIT: i think i found a mistake, when moving in reverse it would actually pull up on the bar at the shackle end wouldnt it?


Yes it would, Not to much. But does to links are weld to one link. I seen 1 link set up the goes under the axle or on top. But I like the dual set up better


Eric

[Halogrinder]

two things. you can do the bushing idea, if you run the tube sleeved inside each other, so the tube will pivot inside the other one, = no binding. just keep it greased.

the other, the single tube setup is still no bueno, cause the axle will want to try and walk under the tube, and bind up the front leafsprings. i have built them like this, by welding on top of the diff, and going to the cross member, and it came of in like 5 miles of wheeling. i didnt like it all. go the dual tube route.

[Fordman500]

I bought the bushings that are a piece of tubing, with leaf spring type inserts and then a small sleeve inside the bushing. SO this is no good w/ tabs?

[Halogrinder]

it'll work, but will limit flex, OR trash the bushings from the axle articulating

[domba420]

my brother built one using bushings...i dunno if they had the sleeve on the inside or not, but it really didn't seem to limit the flex much at all, you don't need a brace in the middle of the shackle either...that could limit flex and it will still function without one. i agree with halogrinder on the single bar design, in theory, i don't see how it would help even if it did hold up...however ive seen quite a few people build them like that, and i've never seen one hold up.

[Fordman500]

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=AFC%2D20236S&N=700+4294925130+4294839061+4294812057+115&autoview=sku Could that be used to allow movement of the bushing or modify it for use with a heim? And finally does it matter if the ladder bar is on the top part of the shackle or the bottom? I would think that it shud be on the top, but in the previous pic posted by Net the dude has it on bottom. Would that still work?

[mj]

mount the bushings with the bolt vertical so the ladder bar can move side to side

[TOUGHGUY]

here is one with heim's on the axle end for more flex.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/Images/Aut_1991.jpg

No extra flex from this but you can change your pinion angle without having to alter the length of the front shackle. You really only need one adjustable joint for this but with two, you can also alter the wheelbase so that you don't bind the springs.


Sean :skull:

[NHRedneck]

well since the parents are out of town for the week, i took the truck and put it in 2wd Hi and dumped the clutch on the driveway, just to see if any carnage would occur, but after leaving a solid 8 ft strip, the rear help up fine, and didnt get any feelings of axle wrap..... os right now i think im going to leave things alone....... after that i took the truck out to my unlces wood lot across the street and messed around some, got some climbs and flex shots, and still no feeling of axle wrap. ill d/l the pics once i get home from work tonight..

thanks to everyone on your input though, now i know how i want ot make one for when i run into the issue..... that will probably come with the addition of a locker : )

[Halogrinder]

:rolleyes: one wheel peel, and you think you are ok? no sir. i dumped the clutch on my junk on the street locked w/ 38's and that ujoint didnt want ANYTHING to do with that.

it blew the tires off half way across the intersection,the truck was bucking BAD.... kinda felt like calling your girlfriend by her sisters name when your bangin her...lol


get it on there now before you run into problems like me

[NHRedneck]

well the way im seeing it is that im still quite a ways away from a locker, and right now if it survived the nice hard one wheel peel and then some wheeling later on without busting some shit, then i think as long as im open ill be safe. once it comes time for a locker i think ill be looking into making the anti wrap bar though

[68Broncoholic]

Yup, you need something to control the axle wrap.
I always blew u-joints with 38's and once I added a traction bar I kept the same u-joint until I'd replace it which it still looked good.
The shackle on the frame end is simply so it can follow the suspension arc of travel. When you get axle wrap the leaf is wanting to twist like an S lifing the pinion upwards. With the shackle mounted verticle the pinion can't lift but it has to be able to swing forwards as the shackels on the leafs do otherwise you get a bind. If the upper shackle is at an angle you will defete the purpose.
With a shackle flip you can reverse the shackle to the other way in the photo.
So that the bar is the lowest and the shackle it above just like your leafs are now.

[dotcom]

NetBSD - like the look of the second one. Any chance of a picture of how that mounts to the frame? Thanks

[NetBSD]

NetBSD - like the look of the second one. Any chance of a picture of how that mounts to the frame? Thanks


do a google image search, theats where i got those images

[dotcom]

Correct me if I'm wrong here BUT - that shackle looks like it defeats the whole purpose of the traction bar to prevent axle wrap. As the axle trys to rotate the shackle will rotate & thus no effect.

After thinking about this problem for a while (conceptually) it would seem that some kind of semi floater at the axle attaching point would allow the up & down articulation we need (& no bind) while preventing the axle rotating & breaking u-joints. I have an idea for mounting.

How to post .jpg file? Thanks

[Halogrinder]

Correct me if I'm wrong here BUT - that shackle looks like it defeats the whole purpose of the traction bar to prevent axle wrap. As the axle trys to rotate the shackle will rotate & thus no effect.

After thinking about this problem for a while (conceptually) it would seem that some kind of semi floater at the axle attaching point would allow the up & down articulation we need (& no bind) while preventing the axle rotating & breaking u-joints. I have an idea for mounting.

How to post .bmp file? Thanks



your picture doesnt work, and im correcting you, cause your wrong :flipoff2:

it works, you just need to see it and do it for you to understand :)

[68Broncoholic]

You're all thinking to much. Axle wrap is when the pinion is lifting upwards under load causing the leafs to bend. The pinion can't lift if there is a shackle placed verticle on the end of the bar. You need the shackle there so it can move with the leaf spring arc of travel when articulating the suspension. Its a great design and works well. I've seen all bushing type work just fine with no bind. I can see that in super flexy suspension systems you would want heims at all ends.