Yikes! Or, finding the source of a front-end vibe...

[ProsQtor]

...a busted front driveshaft UJ, at least, maybe more...

So, I'm driving home this evening. I've been trying to figure out the source of a front-end vibe for months, with varying degrees of success. This morning it was worse than ever, so I decided that, once I got home from work, I'd order some bushings and go from there, perhaps even replacing radius arms, etc. if necessary. In a way that only a Rover could, my beloved 96 Disco decided to show me the source of the vibe. It happened, of course, in a bad area of Milwaukee, and cost me a ride home on a flatbed, since I didn't have my tools with me.

Caution: Poor photography skills, and carnage follow:

http://www.photodump.com/direct/ProsQtor/Picture002.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/ProsQtor/Picture003.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/ProsQtor/Picture004.jpg

http://www.photodump.com/direct/ProsQtor/Picture005.jpg

[tripm]

Everything looks as it should - I see rust, a greasy diff and a wet oil pan - what's the problem? :flipoff2:

[Serious One]

Wow, that's some sweet photography. The 'feel' of the image is all there, even if your focus and exposure isn't exactly what you'd like. :flipoff2:

About the vibe...um, I'm not qualified to talk about that.

But, I do have two front drivelines from a BW equipped RRC that you can have for free if you want them.

Is your slip joint working on that front driveline? I've heard that can cause problems.

Might just be a bad UJ though. Maybe someone with a PhD can comment further.

Bummer about the flatbed. My ripoff story for the day was that I paid $45 for a Lucas rotor at the stealership. Needed it today, so I paid for convenience if nothing else. We all get 'stuck' from time to time eh?

EDIT: I think you need to get rid of that damn 'ice wheel' if you want to cure the vibe. :D

[ProsQtor]

Wow, that's some sweet photography. The 'feel' of the image is all there, even if your focus and exposure isn't exactly what you'd like. :flipoff2:

If by "feel" you mean "accurately reflects the rage at my truck, with the desire to pour gasoline on it and set it alight nearly trumping sanity and reason," yeah, that's what I was going for. :flipoff2:

About the vibe...um, I'm not qualified to talk about that.

But, I do have two front drivelines from a BW equipped RRC that you can have for free if you want them.

If they'll work on an LT230, I'll take 'em. Thanks!

Is your slip joint working on that front driveline? I've heard that can cause problems.

Not sure. I'm going to have to look tomorrow after work when I can get the DS off and drive the truck into the garage for further inspection.

Might just be a bad UJ though. Maybe someone with a PhD can comment further.

Bummer about the flatbed. My ripoff story for the day was that I paid $45 for a Lucas rotor at the stealership. Needed it today, so I paid for convenience if nothing else. We all get 'stuck' from time to time eh?

I hope it's a UJ. And, at least I added the Emergency Roadside Assistance to my insurance...

EDIT: I think you need to get rid of that damn 'ice wheel' if you want to cure the vibe. :D

:flipoff2: It's coming off. I need the extra 15hp and 4mpg! :laughing: :flipoff2:

[Dougal]

And to think I had people throwing crap at me for replacing that exact joint in my truck the other weekend.

They told me "wait till it breaks, then fix it".:D

[Junkyddog11]

BW driveshaft doesn't work with the LT230.

....and I've told you before, thats not the "ice wheel" its the sensor for the "DCAS" (Differential Crunch Avoidance System) :flipoff2:

[ProsQtor]

And to think I had people throwing crap at me for replacing that exact joint in my truck the other weekend.

They told me "wait till it breaks, then fix it".:D

So YOU'RE the one to blame here! :flipoff2:

[Discosaurus]

And to think I had people throwing crap at me for replacing that exact joint in my truck the other weekend.

They told me "wait till it breaks, then fix it".:D

From some of the carnage I've seen, following THAT advice usually get's you a hole in your transmission.

[PTSchram]

Yet another who has refused to heed my dire warnings about front universals on lifted Discos.

So far, I've not had anyhting like that happen, but I have replaced universals with no rollers left and 45' chunks missing from bearing caps.

For some unknown reason, Rover owners seem to think universals will last forever and that changing driveline angles is of no consequence.

I'd offer you a driveshaft, but I believe I'm out of them as my truck is now on its fifth front driveshaft... When you go shopping for a replacement, be very attentive to the condition of the splined joint. If it's worn when you put it in, it won't last long. If it isn't worn when you put it in, it won't last long.

Good luck with the repairs,
PT

[Serious One]

If it's worn when you put it in, it won't last long. If it isn't worn when you put it in, it won't last long.

So what you're saying is...

:flipoff2:

[PTSchram]

So what you're saying is...

:flipoff2:

Repeat after me "Double Cardan". I buggered mine up pretty good disassembling it and now, it gets to live in SLC with Mr. Davis for awhile... As much as I try, I can't be good at everything onthese trucks. I do have another one that was torn up spontaneously disintegrating, maybe I'll see what can be done with it as well.

[ProsQtor]

Yet another who has refused to heed my dire warnings about front universals on lifted Discos.

So far, I've not had anyhting like that happen, but I have replaced universals with no rollers left and 45' chunks missing from bearing caps.

For some unknown reason, Rover owners seem to think universals will last forever and that changing driveline angles is of no consequence.

I'd offer you a driveshaft, but I believe I'm out of them as my truck is now on its fifth front driveshaft... When you go shopping for a replacement, be very attentive to the condition of the splined joint. If it's worn when you put it in, it won't last long. If it isn't worn when you put it in, it won't last long.

Good luck with the repairs,
PT

Damn you and your being right! At first I actually thought the vibe was the Rotoflex starting to go, and I did think that UJs were basically bulletproof. I bow before the PT.

Any suggestions on double-cardan manufacturers or suppliers? Keith? GCR? Tom Woods?

[PTSchram]

Any suggestions on double-cardan manufacturers or suppliers? Keith? GCR? Tom Woods?

Start with Keith. If he can't help you, your choices are either High-angle (yellow star here) or GBR. You can get the same thing form Tow Wood, but if you've ever needed help with anything and called Bill, you know why I suggest him.

PT

[Discosaurus]

Damn you and your being right! At first I actually thought the vibe was the Rotoflex starting to go, and I did think that UJs were basically bulletproof. I bow before the PT.

Any suggestions on double-cardan manufacturers or suppliers? Keith? GCR? Tom Woods?
My vote goes (and my money went...) to GBR. I've had one of his HD fronts on my truck since before time began - never a worry (with occassional re-greasing).

I have a used stock shaft if you need it. Since you REALLY need it, it's free for the taking...

[Junkyddog11]

problem I've noticed with the Tom Wood shafts are that he used an aluminum adapter that seems to have issues holding the bolts from the shaft. I've had one that I could never keep tight and I've had a couple of customers that had the same issue. I'm not positive but for some reason it seems to be a Rover problem although that makes no sense.

GBR uses a steel adapter that I have never had a problem with. The problem may be getting one although I've never had an issue getting driveshafts from Bill.

Personally I just go down to my local truck shop and have them build the damn things. The driveshaft master there also informed me (oh wise one) that a "double cardan" would be a cardan joint at each end of the shaft and that the joint on its own is just a plain cardan joint.

Don't expect a cardan jointed shaft to be a miracle cure for vibrations

[Agrover]

The way I understand Double Hooke (carden) joints to work is that the other end of the driveshaft with the single UJ should be set at an angle of no more than 3 or 4 degrees.The driveshaft downstream of the double carden(usually at the transfercase end) will be driven at constant velocity.If the single jointed end (usually the diff end)of the shaft has more than 3 to 4 degrees then the pinion will be driven at a velocity that is not constant and that is what causes vibration and short UJ life.
Bill.

[PTSchram]

The driveshaft master there also informed me (oh wise one) that a "double cardan" would be a cardan joint at each end of the shaft and that the joint on its own is just a plain cardan joint.



Cardan is the name of the guy who invented the universal joint-he was french, at least they did something right. The double cardan indicates that there are two tied together. Tell him he's wrong.

[Agrover]

Cardan is the name of the guy who invented the universal joint-he was french, at least they did something right. The double cardan indicates that there are two tied together. Tell him he's wrong.

It depends on where your loyalties lay. Hooke was British, and he is also credited with designing the universal joint. With one parent being British and one being French, my loyalties are divided. Not evenly divided though because I prefer to call them double Hooke joints.
Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Cardan is the name of the guy who invented the universal joint-he was french, at least they did something right. The double cardan indicates that there are two tied together. Tell him he's wrong.

Sorry, PT - wrong - Cardano was Italian, not French.
The first known application of the universal joint occurred in China more than 2,000 years ago. The Chinese had invented what we call "gimbals". Gimbal was three concentric rings to be able to rotate in three perpendicular planes. Chinese used series of interlocking rings within a device that allowed a candle placed in the center to remain upright regardless of the device's position. Today, gimbals are used to keep ships' compasses level and as components in gyroscopes.

In 1545, Italian mathematician Girolamo Cardano theorized that the principle of gimbals could be used to transmit rotary motion through an angled connection. Some credit Cardano with the invention of the universal joint, but it wasn't until the next century that an actual universal joint was produced.

English scientist Robert Hooke (1635-1703) was the first to put the universal joint to work. In 1676, he published a paper on an optical instrument that could be used to study the sun safely. In order to track the sun across the sky, the device feature a control handle fitted with a new type of joint rather like two stirrups locked together, which allowed twisting motion in one shaft to be passed on to another, no matter how the two shafts were orientated.

Davison in [2] mentions that "Credit …is frequently given to Jerome Cardan, as Cardan's gimbal was mistaken for universal joint in the modern sense." But A. Ashworth in [1] says: "The first such universal joint was fitted to a carriage belonging to the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V in 1548. This piece of engineering alone would have shown its inventor (after whom it was named) to be a remarkable man; but there was a lot more to him than this. The man was Girolamo Cardano, a man in the quintessential Renaissance tradition". It is also mentioned in literature that Leonardo da Vinci had an idea of a universal joint.

For the next 240 years the idea was waiting for the likes of the young Cornell University engineering graduate, Clarence W. Spicer, to find a use. He built his own automobile ... the Spicer car... to demonstrate the operation of his universal joint. The determination to carry through his idea led to his success as a manufacturer.

In 1903 Spicer received the patent for the universal joint while studying at Cornell University and began manufacturing his invention as Spicer Manufacturing Company in Plainfield, NJ on April 1, 1904.

The automotive and industrial world became immediately better. Before the universal joint there were troublesome chain and sprockets or chain and geared adaptations used in vehicles. Mr. Spicer is recognized as a mechanical genius...but we also should give him credit as being a top-notch salesman. He had an idea and was so convinced of its potential, that he proceeded to sell it to the then doubting giants of the automobile industry. Spicer's ingenuity to apply the universal joint was the seed that grew to bear a billion dollar a year corporation--Dana--and it's still growing 90 years later.[3]

[PTSchram]

Yet again, I stand corrected, although, I have little more sympathy for the Italians than the Frendh. The times I've visited both countries, I've found them to be almost equally difficult to deal with. The Englisha nd the Germans ont he other hand didn't seem to have the difficulties with dealing with Americans.

Edit:I will argue the point that Dana is growing. Dana used to be headquartered in Fort Wayne and has now moved away and downsized and sold off much of its business-I'm now working for one of the companies that bougth a bunch of Dana.

[evilfij]

Change the flange to a DII flange and install a DII shaft with greasable U-joints.

[DieLucas!]

I think it's time I shipped you that case of beer I promised...:D

[Junkyddog11]

fuckin' A. I love contributing a good...er ...discussion.

and naturally I stand enlightened by the great one. Thanks for that.

I frequently get people in the shop with the " I just spent 400 bucks on a DOUBLE CARDAN drive shaft and I've still got a vibration."

Like Bill said, if you can't get the other end of a DOUBLE CARDAN shaft to run at 3 or 4 degrees, you probably will get a vibration....sometimes one that you did not have to start with.

[ProsQtor]

I think it's time I shipped you that case of beer I promised...:D

Yeah, yeah, yeah....I'll believe that when I see it on my doorstep. :flipoff2: How is that Disco treating you now?

So, if the key to eliminating vibration is to have the other end of the double-cardan running at 3 or 4 degrees or less, what is the point of a driveshaft with one UJ on the diff end and a double-cardan at the transfercase, a la the DII? Why not have double-cardan on both ends?

I'm calling GBR on Monday, and we'll see what the damage will be. :eek:

[Agrover]

Yeah, yeah, yeah....I'll believe that when I see it on my doorstep. :flipoff2: How is that Disco treating you now?

So, if the key to eliminating vibration is to have the other end of the double-cardan running at 3 or 4 degrees or less, what is the point of a driveshaft with one UJ on the diff end and a double-cardan at the transfercase, a la the DII? Why not have double-cardan on both ends?

I'm calling GBR on Monday, and we'll see what the damage will be. :eek:

In an ideal situation the end with the single UJ would have no angle but then the needle rollers would be static and would Brinell grooves into the journals of the UJ cross and bearing caps, so when the suspension moved and required the UJ to articulate, the rollers would trip over the grooves causing premature wear. I tried a shaft with double Hooke joints at both ends on a Volvo axled 110 I converted, but the shaft was very heavy and I felt that it would have contributed to rapid pinion bearing wear.
Bill.
Bill.

[PTSchram]

I tried a shaft with double Hooke joints at both ends on a Volvo axled 110 I converted, but the shaft was very heavy and I felt that it would have contributed to rapid pinion bearing wear.
Bill.
Bill.

Pinion bearing wear... Isn't this what we're trying to avoid with the DC driveshafts? I was shocked to find how badlt the front diff had worn in my Disco-I attributed it to being lifted and not having a DC driveshaft.

If not having a DC driveshaft will wear pinion bearings, a DC driveshaft might still cause vibes that will eventually eat pinion bearings and a double DC shaft will wear pinion beairngs due to excessive weight, should we just learn to swap pinion bearings and accept this as part of owning a lifted Rover? I don't know if we could ever achieve acceptable u-joint angles without heroic efforts.

PT

[ProsQtor]

Pinion bearing wear... Isn't this what we're trying to avoid with the DC driveshafts? I was shocked to find how badlt the front diff had worn in my Disco-I attributed it to being lifted and not having a DC driveshaft.

If not having a DC driveshaft will wear pinion bearings, a DC driveshaft might still cause vibes that will eventually eat pinion bearings and a double DC shaft will wear pinion beairngs due to excessive weight, should we just learn to swap pinion bearings and accept this as part of owning a lifted Rover? I don't know if we could ever achieve acceptable u-joint angles without heroic efforts.

PT

So I guess, like everything else, weight vs. angles is a trade off? Stupid trucks...

...or, stupid me for lifting it. :laughing:

[wilsby]

So I guess, like everything else, weight vs. angles is a trade off? Stupid trucks...

...or, stupid me for lifting it. :laughing:

Lifting with a single DC is fine, as long as you stay away from cranking the radius arms. Keep the pinion pointed at the TC, and live with bad caster, and you will survive for a long time. Or pay up for svivel balls with clocked flanges.

My D110 has a Disco II DC front shaft, and it is fine, though I managed to tear of the ears of the rear axle end UJ this summer. Both pinion bearings are toast, but so were the wheel bearings, and I attribute this to acidy swamp water with a high solids content.

[Dougal]

Lifting with a single DC is fine, as long as you stay away from cranking the radius arms. Keep the pinion pointed at the TC, and live with bad caster, and you will survive for a long time. Or pay up for svivel balls with clocked flanges.

My D110 has a Disco II DC front shaft, and it is fine, though I managed to tear of the ears of the rear axle end UJ this summer. Both pinion bearings are toast, but so were the wheel bearings, and I attribute this to acidy swamp water with a high solids content.

Are the double cardon shafts you guys are using DC on both ends or only one?
If they're DC on only one end, then they have to be setup so the single universal end is in close to a straight line, use the DC end to take all the movement.

A single universal on an angle gives torsional speed changes, a DC on an angle doesn't, it works like CV joint.

Can you seal up the hubs and run oil bath like the older rangies?

[wilsby]

I run oil all the way out with Maxi Drive flanges. Works fine, except for the flange bolts that keep backing out, despite cleaned and degreased threads, loctite an religious use of a torque whrench.

You keep an eye for oil leaks, and you can catch it in time, though.

[Agrover]

I run oil all the way out with Maxi Drive flanges. Works fine, except for the flange bolts that keep backing out, despite cleaned and degreased threads, loctite an religious use of a torque whrench.

You keep an eye for oil leaks, and you can catch it in time, though.

Are you talking front or rear axle Christer? Rear flange bolts constantly backing off is an indication of either a slightly bent axle housing or spindle.
Unlike stock LandRover items,MaxiDrive flanges are a very precise fit on the halfshaft, and do not allow enough misalignment to compensate for a tweaked axle housing, causing the bolts to loosen.
Bill.

[wilsby]

Are you talking front or rear axle Christer? Rear flange bolts constantly backing off is an indication of either a slightly bent axle housing or spindle.
Unlike stock LandRover items,MaxiDrive flanges are a very precise fit on the halfshaft, and do not allow enough misalignment to compensate for a tweaked axle housing, causing the bolts to loosen.
Bill.

Front and rear, most pronounced in the front I think. Which maybe makes sense, since I have had really sloppy wheel bearings, and am just about to renew the worn bronze bushings supporting the CV's.

I have been told this is a common problem with Maxi Drive flanges, and the explanation was the "springy" nature of shafts and flanges.

There is no visible damage to the rear Sals, but who knows.

Do you think the vibes from shot pinion bearings, also in the process of being replaced, might play a role here?

Come to think of it, the backing out of bolts have occured over a period of several years, also with bearings in good shape.

[Agrover]

Front and rear, most pronounced in the front I think. Which maybe makes sense, since I have had really sloppy wheel bearings, and am just about to renew the worn bronze bushings supporting the CV's.

I have been told this is a common problem with Maxi Drive flanges, and the explanation was the "springy" nature of shafts and flanges.

There is no visible damage to the rear Sals, but who knows.

Do you think the vibes from shot pinion bearings, also in the process of being replaced, might play a role here?

Come to think of it, the backing out of bolts have occured over a period of several years, also with bearings in good shape.

It doesn't take much of a bend or loose wheel bearings to cause a problem.
I shouldn't think shot pinion bearings would have any effect on it though.
Bill.

[wilsby]

It doesn't take much of a bend or loose wheel bearings to cause a problem.
I shouldn't think shot pinion bearings would have any effect on it though.
Bill.

I'll do the clean-loctite-torque routine again and see what happens.

At least the front right flange has worn enough from the movement to allow the parts to be separated by hand. No slop, but no press fit either. If this flange comes loose again, I will look for a different explanation.

[ProsQtor]

Back on topic: Any cheater's advice for removing the fawking u-joint bolts? I've PB Blasted 'em twice now, and cannot even budge them. I'm about an hour from breaking out the angle grinder and cutting the bolt heads off...unless anyone has any other suggestions?

I figure, I have to replace the bolts anyway, so why worry about being neat about it?

[Keith Armstrong]

You aren't trying to get them out with hand tools are you?

PB / fire / impact tool of your choice and they may come off. Clearly fastner replacement is a good idea here ;)

KAA

[Agrover]

Back on topic: Any cheater's advice for removing the fawking u-joint bolts? I've PB Blasted 'em twice now, and cannot even budge them. I'm about an hour from breaking out the angle grinder and cutting the bolt heads off...unless anyone has any other suggestions?

I figure, I have to replace the bolts anyway, so why worry about being neat about it?
Split the nuts with a chisel.
Bill.

[ProsQtor]

OK, I was trying to use hand tools. I've been sick, and on meds, and I think that will explain the stupid choices on that...:shaking:

Chisel it is. This is just more justification for air tools. :laughing:

[DieLucas!]

Yeah, yeah, yeah....I'll believe that when I see it on my doorstep. :flipoff2: How is that Disco treating you now?


I've got most of the major sh!t worked out. Recently did the Taurus electric fan swap (need to post pics) and it seems to work great. It runs well and is dependable and the remaining issues are minor (or expected for tha age/mileage). Other than that, Rover ownership has returned me back to my emasculated self...so even if I were still pissed, I don't have the balls to do anything about it :flipoff2:

[ProsQtor]

BTT ....

OK, so I'm exploring my options for a replacement/rebuild. Came up with some questions:

(1) Can I just replace the U-Joints and flange, and leave the driveshaft itself alone, or do I need to replace the whole shooting match?

(2) If I can just replace the U-Joints, where can I get double-cardan U-Joints for both ends of the Disco driveshaft?

(3) I saw on EBay (while trolling for a DII front driveshaft) some kind of spacer for driveshafts, to maintain the driveshaft length on a lifted truck. Anyone have anything to say about either the concept (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&item=290028224854)or the company/person selling them, listed on Ebay as ToddCo?

Thanks again,


Andy

[PTSchram]

Given the beating your driveshaft no doubt took, it would be wise to have the assembly balanced.

If you wanna go DC, you'll need to have a new driveshaft made. The solid bar body probably won't support a DC yoke. Take your old one to the local driveshaft shop. Maybe try...
A-1 driveshaft
3453 N. 35th Street
Milwaukee
WI
53216
United States

[Serious One]

Anyone have anything to say about either the concept (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&item=290028224854)or the company/person selling them, listed on Ebay as ToddCo?

His pseudo-studio photography skillz suck.

That's all I'm qualified to say. :flipoff2:

[ProsQtor]

UPDATE: Finally managed to remove the driveshaft, using a Dremel and about 8 cutoff wheels. Pleasantly surprised to see 4-bolt flanges at the diff and transfercase, meaning no adapter necessary for the DII driveshaft, right?

[PTSchram]

Pleasantly surprised to see 4-bolt flanges at the diff and transfercase, meaning no adapter necessary for the DII driveshaft, right?

Nope, the DII driveshaft has different spacing for the bolts at the transfer case.

I take it this means we won't be seeing you next weekend at Schramsylvania? Seems like either nobody loves me enough to go wheeling with me, or, they're all going to the rallye. Oh well, I'll be back with lots of pics-if my camera doesn't fawk up any more.

[ProsQtor]

Nope, the DII driveshaft has different spacing for the bolts at the transfer case.

I take it this means we won't be seeing you next weekend at Schramsylvania? Seems like either nobody loves me enough to go wheeling with me, or, they're all going to the rallye. Oh well, I'll be back with lots of pics-if my camera doesn't fawk up any more.


fuckin' A, why? :flipoff:

So I have to spend $80+ on an adapter, plus the driveshaft? That sucks.

I might be up there in two wheel drive....I hear Ike ran the trails in 2WD. Otherwise, I'll navigate! :flipoff2:

If you leave Thursday, when do you get up to Schramsylvania?