While we wait for some good hardcore Moab pictures (hint, hint), here are some shots for you expedition-types to enjoy. These are from the Nazca expedition, remember the river crossing I described? Here are the shots as promised. You guys want to talk about pucker factor? That's a $25,000 Land Cruiser 2,500 miles away from home...

Here's one more. Notice how flimsy the dugouts look...

One more...gulp!

Last one...feeling a little more confident! :)

Thats NUTS:eek:

I think thats more hardcore than anything at MOAB!!! :eek: :D

COOL PICS!!!!!!!

Gotta love the "outboard" motors on those canoes, haven't seen those since the old James Bond movie.

Cool pics.. Those are the most amazing pics I have seen yet..:eek: :eek:

Do trrucks ever have accidents? I mean, for every 100 trucks who cross the river on canoes like that, what ratio of them end up in the drink? Just wwondering.

Ross

Those pictures made me cringe!!! OMG!!! Hard core! Sweet pics- got any more?

if my cruiser was up there, id certainly be worried, but those guys dont look very concerned

In the few times that I've crossed rivers through this method (and the boats used were MUCH bigger), I never saw an accident, but did hear from several trucks that ended up in the water. If you ever go to INTI's in Caracas, they have a "Wall of Glory" covered with hundreds of pictures, some of them truly amazing. One of them showed three people that looked like they were standing on water in the middle of a river. At closer look, you see a reddish shadow under them. They were actually standing on the roof rack of a completely sunken FJ62!

I searched my archives, came up with some more pictures. This one shows the typical river crossing in the Venezuelan outback. Unless something goes radically wrong, there isn't much danger involved. On some of the wider rivers, though (like the Caroni or the Sipapo), the water can get choppy and the ride across is rough.

For the most part, river crossings are like this, deep but short. You gotta watch for the current, as it can drive the Cruiser sideways; the fact that there are a lot of nasty little critters in the water make pre-crossing it on foot uncommon.

Henry, I am glad you are the "Venezuelan Connection". The pictures from VZ you post are always amazing.

I dig four-wheeling US-style, but I would really like to do one of those long overland trips through something approaching wilderness. Maybe ACT 2005....

Morgan

In the Llanos (outback) regrion of Venezuela, rivers flood out of their beds every year, innundating the plains. These river crossings can be treacherous, because it's hard to see deeper pools until it's almost too late!

Thanks, Morgan! I don't do nearly as much rockcrawling as I would like (yet), so I like sharing the kind of wheeling that I've done all my life (and want to do more of)...

Here's another Venezuelan Cruiser pic, let me know if you want more, I got literally *thousands* of them! :)

Heck, what about the 3 inches of freeboard on those dugouts. One hippo fart will swamp them

Great pics, I'd like to visit anyplace that the Cruiser is considered the primary mode of transportation. Here's a link to a pic my brother sent me while he was working in Venezuala. This was a loaner vehicle from the ranch they were based at.

http://home.earthlink.net/~casarosa/Troopy2.jpg

Hey 60series, I've always kind of wondered this, so I thought I'd ask.

Why do most of the rigs I've seen in S.A. run such un-agressive tires? I know if I brought my Toy down there, I'd want to keep my 36" TSLs, thank you very much.

Is it a legality issue, personal preference, or simply because a real mud tire is so expensive? Or all of the above?

If it doesn't say Super Swamper on the sidewall... it's an all-terrain. ;) :p

Dr. Evil, the problem with tires in Venezuela and other South American countries is simply, *COST*. Between the import tariffs, the outrageous markup by importers, and the lack of competition from local companies, it's not uncommon to pay $300 for a 35x12.5R15 BFG MT. Swampers are even more expensive.

Cost of the tires is also related to longevity; think about it, you pay $550 for a single 36" TSL, that's $1,800 just for tires, and low long are they going to last?

There is no such thing as a trailer queen in Venezuela, *NOBODY* trailers their rigs. If you go wheeling, you drive the truck to the trailhead and back, and we're not talking the distance between Moab's main street and the Golden Spike trailhead or from Pollock Pines to Rubicon Springs, we're talking thousands of miles of crappy (barely) roads with overloaded Land Cruisers.

Thus, you want to have a tire that can handle the highways as well as the trails, is long-lasting enough to justify the investment, and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to begin with. Hence the comparatively mild tread that people are running down there.

As a general rule of thumb, anything imported into Venezuela is outrageously expensive, hence the popularity of fabrication. From suspension lifts to fuel tanks to roof racks and bullbars, it's much cheaper to have something fabricated than it is to import it.

that cruiser with the guy hanging outthe window, looks to be on 35s,or similar, so in the earlier river crossing icture of that vehicle, it must be pretty deep, cause its SOA aswell:smokin:

That last pic reminds me of my cruiser. I gotta have people hanging off it everywhere so it wont tip over!

Yes 60series- there is something very cruiser purist about expedition travel compared to rock crawling. The best way to really look at it is that.....in moab a mistake means you and your buddy who hauled you back home -will be swilling back the brews and wielding a sawzall for a few too many hours with the wife working the barbeque on a hot summer day..........whereas an expedition mistake means that when you return with the children 10 years later to the spot in south america where "she went down".......you find the local natives have dredged up the cruiser and are using your bellhousing in the outhouse to squat over while the local women sit and grind flour for tortillas with your birfields.

Funny you should mention that... I was on an expedition in 1993 where we had to abandon one of the trucks, an FJ75 pickup that was rolled badly. It's a weird feeling, stripping a truck down, taking the VIN plates off, grinding the frame number down and then leaving it behind.

On the way to the Fords of the Cinaruco River there is a narrow pass between two hills. On one of them there is a saman (oak-like tree) growing *through* what's left of an FJ45 frame, the only remnant of a Cruiser that burned down in the late 1970's during an expedition.

There are *many* places in Venezuela where if you leave a truck for even a few hours, chances are you won't find *anything* left when you get back....

It's not uncommon to come across sights like this on outback trips, the only unusable portion of a Land Cruiser, the tub, is all that's left. In this case, the truck had been badly rolled and recovery was impossible on that trip, and when the owner went back, this is what he found.

Truly awesome... it's great we can appreciate each other's type of wheeling and admire it the same.. I, for one, will never get tired of the pics!

those pics are awesome! I only hope that I can make my way 2500 miles from home in mine ;)

You know there are places like that near my house. Where if you leave your vehicle for a couple of hours you come back and there is nothing left.;)

Originally posted by 60seriesguy
Funny you should mention that... I was on an expedition in 1993 where we had to abandon one of the trucks, an FJ75 pickup that was rolled badly. It's a weird feeling, stripping a truck down, taking the VIN plates off, grinding the frame number down and then leaving it behind.


Henry,
why do you have to get rid of the VIN?

I would guess for liability. A couple of years later a truck with your VIN shows up running drugs or in an accident.;)

great pics man, and I thought I felt isolated when I broke down 10 miles into the woods:rolleyes:
but I wanted to ask, I see a couple of the cruisers have a big yellow thing on the roof....
I'm gonna guess that those are roof tents of some sort?
am I close?
cheers,
ryan

Unrelated to Henry's VIN removal, but interesting regardless. A few years back, drove the 80 series to NYC. Came back after a few hours sight seeing to a broken window. Nothing was stolen out of the truck. A few weeks later, I noticed the VIN plate was missing. Called the police, they said that thieves break into trucks, steal the VIN plate, and then attach said VIN plate to an actual stolen 80 series and ship it out the country. By the time I reported my VIN stolen, the 80 series it was now attached to was probably in Panama or Africa or where ever stolen cars go.

Ross

Originally posted by seapotato
great pics man, and I thought I felt isolated when I broke down 10 miles into the woods:rolleyes:
but I wanted to ask, I see a couple of the cruisers have a big yellow thing on the roof....
I'm gonna guess that those are roof tents of some sort?
am I close?
cheers,
ryan

they're parachutes for crossing cayons. :rolleyes: :)

Originally posted by rustycruiser
Called the police, they said that thieves break into trucks, steal the VIN plate, and then attach said VIN plate to an actual stolen 80 series and ship it out the country. By the time I reported my VIN stolen, the 80 series it was now attached to was probably in Panama or Africa or where ever stolen cars go.

Ross

That or some cruiser nut was having a hard time trying to import a certain Venezuelan Fj62 & saw his oportunity @ a Clear title. :D

Yup, those are roof top tents. Excellent for long range expeditions when you have to drive for long distances several days in a row, they allow for quick camp setup. Also, there are all kinds of nasty little critters in Venezuela (scorpions, "veinticuatro" ants, "marabunta" ants, congorochos, multiple species of poisonous snakes, etc...) and the further away from them you can camp, the better.

Besides, they're comfy, ask RustyCruiser, plenty of space for two not-petite Cruiserheads with a nice safety wall of gear in between! :)

Here's a shot of my friend Raul's FZJ80 Autana with the tent deployed.

I am totally sold on the folding expedition style tents. Last September, HC and I wwent up to NH for the ex-Catamount Fall Gathering. We got to Ossapie, NH at midnight in the middle of a pissing rain storm. With a regular tent, we would have been screwed...totally wet and miserable trying to set the tent up. It took us "10 SECONDS" to flip open the tent, and climb inside. What a joy.

Maybe it is old age, but I am starting to appreciate things like these tents, and on board showers, and ARB fridges etc. Camping is alot better with ammenities! No more week long pretzel and Mountain Dew fueld camping madness. :D

Ross

Originally posted by seapotato

but I wanted to ask, I see a couple of the cruisers have a big yellow thing on the roof....
I'm gonna guess that those are roof tents of some sort?
am I close?
cheers,
ryan

In the first pics, I figured they were life rafts...the kind that automatically deploy when they go more than 15' under water. :D

Nice pics man.

what do the natives strip the vehicles down with? if they get them that far apart...and yet are so primitive? surely they dont have snap-on air tools and just go to town like a chop shop?

Common misconception, Venezuela only has "natives" in the southeastern corner of the country, where the Amazon jungle extends into the provinces of Amazonas and Delta Amacuro. The rest of the Venezuelan outback is populated by hardy "mestizos" (people who descend from Spanish, Indian and African bloodlines) and who are very crafty, very ingenious.

When a Land Cruiser is taken apart, it's done with regular hand tools, sometimes the very same tools that come with the Cruiser! With 20 guys going at it like locusts, it really doesn't take that long.

And yes, you do come across Cruiser parts being used for whatever is handy, I remember seeing an FJ40 bezel hanging flat from the roof of a "churuata" (open-sided hut) and about 20 bunches of bananas hanging off of it with wire. My favorite was one time I was looking for someone to patch up a badly buggered tire and I was sent into the outskirts of a little town to a mining camp where they supposedly had a good tire man. While I waited for the guy to fix it, I noticed that the engine the miners were using to run water down the sluice was a 2F bolted to a big pallet, radiator and all, with the fuel line hooked to a 55 gallon drum!

Another big-time outback favorite, which I'm sure Rustycruiser will find familiar, is the horse or donkey cart made out of wood but sporting a sweet rear Land Cruiser axle, from rim to rim, with the pinion flange still spinning! You see those all over the outback.

Every once in a while you'll see a 45 troopy's roof used as an extension for a shack, complete with mud walls and a chicken wire door.

dude those are awesome pics, the next rig i build up with be for expedition-type trips...

Originally posted by 60seriesguy
Common misconception, Venezuela only has "natives" in the southeastern corner of the country, where the Amazon jungle extends into the provinces of Amazonas and Delta Amacuro. The rest of the Venezuelan outback is populated by hardy "mestizos" (people who descend from Spanish, Indian and African bloodlines) and who are very crafty, very ingenious.

When a Land Cruiser is taken apart, it's done with regular hand tools, sometimes the very same tools that come with the Cruiser! With 20 guys going at it like locusts, it really doesn't take that long.

And yes, you do come across Cruiser parts being used for whatever is handy, I remember seeing an FJ40 bezel hanging flat from the roof of a "churuata" (open-sided hut) and about 20 bunches of bananas hanging off of it with wire. My favorite was one time I was looking for someone to patch up a badly buggered tire and I was sent into the outskirts of a little town to a mining camp where they supposedly had a good tire man. While I waited for the guy to fix it, I noticed that the engine the miners were using to run water down the sluice was a 2F bolted to a big pallet, radiator and all, with the fuel line hooked to a 55 gallon drum!

Another big-time outback favorite, which I'm sure Rustycruiser will find familiar, is the horse or donkey cart made out of wood but sporting a sweet rear Land Cruiser axle, from rim to rim, with the pinion flange still spinning! You see those all over the outback.

Every once in a while you'll see a 45 troopy's roof used as an extension for a shack, complete with mud walls and a chicken wire door.


:eek: :eek: so these cruiser rear axles would be DANA-VEN 35 spliners? under horse and cart!! awesome, but heavier than need be!!

Cost of the tires is also related to longevity; think about it, you pay $550 for a single 36" TSL, that's $1,800 just for tires, and low long are they going to last?

So, if a guy can afford to wheel his $25K 80 series, he can't afford to buy a more agressive Swamper? :rolleyes: It seems there'd be a huge benefit running Swampers, considering all the muddy trails & water crossings. Do you think they choose the cheap tires because any more added stresses to those already weak birfields would :nuke: them?

There is no such thing as a trailer queen in Venezuela, *NOBODY* trailers their rigs. If you go wheeling, you drive the truck to the trailhead and back, and we're not talking the distance between Moab's main street and the Golden Spike trailhead or from Pollock Pines to Rubicon Springs, we're talking thousands of miles of crappy (barely) roads with overloaded Land Cruisers.

There's no need to trailer a daily driver/expedition type vehicle :p Don't let the stickers & roof rack fool 'ya.

Birfield breakage is the *last* concern, 80% of those expedition trucks are open diff'd, remember that electric lockers were never an option in Venezuela and ARB's and other lockers are EXPENSIVE. I spent 15+ years on expeditions in Venezuela and I never saw a broken birfield until I moved to the US. Not that it didn't happen, but it was very uncommon. In the last few years lockers have become more common so I'm assuming that broken birfields have also become more common, but it's just not the same kind of wheeling as in the US.

And like I said, when you're paying $550 for one swamper, that's a LARGE chunk of cash for trucks that see a LOT of mileage. How many 1,500 mile expeditions do you think swampers are going to last? On Third World roads? With very heavy Land Cruisers? Probably not very long, and that is a bitter pill to swallow.

Yes, there are a lot of muddy trails, especially during the rainy season, but the bulk of the expedition takes place on dirt roads or double tracks where a Super Swamper doesn't really give you any advantage. That's without taking into account the 600+ kilometers of (semi)paved road that you had to drive to the "trailhead".

I don't really understand your argument about the money. So what if a new FZJ80 costs $28,000? The vast majority of expedition vehicles in Venezuela are also daily drivers, these aren't "wheeling rigs" per se, these are the trucks that people use for work, to go to school, etc... There is a *huge* difference in being able to afford to buy a Land Cruiser and then spending $2,200 in tires every 18 months, assuming you didn't destroy one of them during a trip.

Add to this the fact that Swampers will *only* be available in big cities, once you're in the outback you better be prepared. No such thing as ordering a tire to get UPS'd in Venezuela, if you're in San Fernando de Atabapo and you screw up two of your nice swampers, you either buy a couple of whatever tires you can get and that's the end of your trip, or you wait for someone to come from the nearest city with two more swampers, *assuming* that they're even in stock when you order them. Most of the time, they're not.

Originally posted by 60seriesguy

And yes, you do come across Cruiser parts being used for whatever is handy, I remember seeing an FJ40 bezel hanging flat from the roof of a "churuata" (open-sided hut) and about 20 bunches of bananas hanging off of it with wire. .

I'm tossing the Calphalon pot/pan rack I have in the kitchen and going to a Cruiser bezel......oh yeah baby:D

John H

And like I said, when you're paying $550 for one swamper,

HMMM, I still find that hard to believe. That's an SOR type of markup :D I didn't realize the majority of those 1,500 mile trips were hard packed dirt roads. From the pictures I've seen about those types of trips (Camel Trophy), they were mostly muddy river crossings or in the deep mire in the jungle. Thanks for the expanded explanation :)

Great pics Herny! Thanks for posting them.

Originally posted by LC Hamma


HMMM, I still find that hard to believe. That's an SOR type of markup :D I didn't realize the majority of those 1,500 mile trips were hard packed dirt roads. From the pictures I've seen about those types of trips (Camel Trophy), they were mostly muddy river crossings or in the deep mire in the jungle. Thanks for the expanded explanation :)

Agree 100% on the markup. To give you an idea, a Hi-Lift jack can sell for $150 in Venezuela, and that's for the standard 48" stamped one.

Part of it has to do with importation duties, which in some cases can be 80%-100% of declared value, plus the healthy (okay, obscene) markup.

And most expeditions in Venezuela don't reach the level of the Camel Trophy. Granted, some of them *exceed* it, but it's not the norm. And the Camel Trophy itself involved hundreds of miles of driving on dirt roads, you just don't see many action shots of that part! And the Camel Trophy doesn't use Swampers, either, it's usually the more all-terrain Michelin XCL's.

If you're ever in Austin gimme a call, dude, I'll show you some videos of Venezuelan expeditions that will blow your mind!

can you recommend any good websites for reading/seeing more about this sort of stuff? the expedition type offroading has always been interesting to me, i just never seem to run across any info about it..


thanks

oh.. and do they ever use pickups? or is the 5 door standard fare?

The only thing I gots to say is OMFG!!

That guy INSIDE the Cruiser on that rickety raft is nuts. What if it tips? At least stand outside...

-tom

Originally posted by LC Hamma


HMMM, I still find that hard to believe. That's an SOR type of markup :D I didn't realize the majority of those 1,500 mile trips were hard packed dirt roads. From the pictures I've seen about those types of trips (Camel Trophy), they were mostly muddy river crossings or in the deep mire in the jungle. Thanks for the expanded explanation :)


Camel trophy is indeed the "ultimate driving challenge" however it is not what most people imagine it to be. For example, they never show the REAL heroes of Camel Trophy, the mechanics who beat, bash, weld and bolt the lineup of trucks back together when they fail. Land-Rovers are excellent vehicles but seeing the type of beatings inflicted upon them, and this mixed with water crossings, heavy winching, etc... They would still be in the rainforest, like that cruizer body that's stripped of all parts, if it weren't for constant repair :). Camel was a competition, and you rarely see but the highlights of the best parts.

My personal opinion of what constitutes a good expe rig has changed a lot. I used to think that you needed a BEAST of a truck, twin winches, lots of lift, kinda like a rockcrawler but with a tent and more space, but in reality you are better off with a mild truck, and a winch. The mild truck is better on fuel, handles better, drives nicer and is less tiring to handle for 14 hours a day. You won't be able to get through all the stuff that you would with the gonzo truck, but at least you can winch through.

I'd think that swampers would be a bad expedition tire. They are very tough, however they would wear very quickly, and they are not known for being very good tires as far as noise, balancing, and general driving performance. I wouldn't trade my Michelins (900R16s) for anything when I'm adventuring. True, the truck would probably get through more if it had aggressive tread mud tires, but I'd have to deal with the wear issue and the noise/balancing/out of roundness.

Expeditions are funny things. Sometimes you don't even use your front axle. Sometimes you winch for days. You rarely know what will happen ahead of time. That's the best part ;)

J-L