Wheel Base vs. Tire Size

hi guys,
This kind of goes along with Fatkid's Sticky on Suzuki FAQ's. In reading all of the stuff on the board over the last little while it's pretty clear we all have different opinions on set ups and we seem to have the same discussions every month or two when someone else (usually a newbie or when someone is considering changeing up their set up) brings it up.

With that said, why not do a subject of the week (maybe sticky style so it stays around) so that some of the we stuff talk about is easy to get to and stays organized. Or post a pic and a basic spec sheet (i.e. engine, drivetrain, tire size and kind, suspension type, wheelbase, and maybe terrain usually wheeled.) Just the important stuff not the impress us list 'cause I really don't care you've got 6 off road lights and chrome diff covers and a garbage can in your rig!

For a topic of the week:
My suggestion is to do the first one on wheelbase vs. tire size. I know we've got a decent debate going on now but it isn't organized nor are there many hard facts just opinions. What I mean by that is people are stating what they have and claiming it works but we don't have any visuals to go along with it. We've all been around to know what will work for us (in our area) just by looking at it. So post a pic of the side profile of your rig on a flat surface and state your wheelbase, and tire size/type. This way we can see, break over, approach and departure angles and get a sense of what's possible (ie what hits and what fits). There are enough red stars in this forum to post pics if you don't have the option.

What do you guys think? O and BTW sorry about the essay. :flipoff2:

Dave
aka Shogunator:

Originally posted by dumb
hi guys,
This kind of goes along with Fatkid's Sticky on Suzuki FAQ's. In reading all of the stuff on the board over the last little while it's pretty clear we all have different opinions on set ups and we seem to have the same discussions every month or two when someone else (usually a newbie or when someone is considering changeing up their set up) brings it up.

With that said, why not do a subject of the week (maybe sticky style so it stays around) so that some of the we stuff talk about is easy to get to and stays organized. Or post a pic and a basic spec sheet (i.e. engine, drivetrain, tire size and kind, suspension type, wheelbase, and maybe terrain usually wheeled.) Just the important stuff not the impress us list 'cause I really don't care you've got 6 off road lights and chrome diff covers and a garbage can in your rig!

For a topic of the week:
My suggestion is to do the first one on wheelbase vs. tire size. I know we've got a decent debate going on now but it isn't organized nor are there many hard facts just opinions. What I mean by that is people are stating what they have and claiming it works but we don't have any visuals to go along with it. We've all been around to know what will work for us (in our area) just by looking at it. So post a pic of the side profile of your rig on a flat surface and state your wheelbase, and tire size/type. This way we can see, break over, approach and departure angles and get a sense of what's possible (ie what hits and what fits). There are enough red stars in this forum to post pics if you don't have the option.

What do you guys think? O and BTW sorry about the essay. :flipoff2:

Dave
aka Shogunator:




hey, great idea..........in theory:D
i'm more than a little skeptical about it not turning into another "mine's better than your's, you moron" "your idea sucks, because you don't hardcore wheel" etc. etc. followed by the person who was slagged go ballistic and turn the thread into a personal defence of everthing they've ever done trying to "prove" that no, they really are (regardless whether it's true or not...) a "hardcore wheeler" and so on.

i love the idea of a little more uhhh.... i hesitate to say "friendly" or "mature" but definately fact based answer/reply method like:

-this is a picture of: xxx
-dimensions are: xxx
-tires are: 33x11.5 on xxx backspaced 8" rims
-on xxx wide Toy axles etc etc, doing THIS.

"how can i improve my set up?" or "can someone else show me a better method" etc etc.

no bragging/flaming/obscured by mud/"take my word for it i can clear a 36" high rock but my camera was broke" stuff (or just gratuitous pictures that, neat as they may be, don't really adhere to the "intent" of the weekly topic.)

this doesn't mean it has to be dry, humourless, disectingly analytical in presentation, just less opinionated and more honest with trying to advance theory to reality.

:beer: cheers for your idea, Dave.:)

:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Dr. Evil
:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:



bahahahaha:flipoff2: you bastid:D


see wot i mean, Dave? it's an impossible task. give up now.:D

I was gonna say great idea. But I dont think it would fly here. No one really cares. Those that dont need or want others input will contribute funny stuff (that was funny too). I have a small application I run at home called "treepad" its like a notepad but you add leafs containing misc information. I keep a list of any factual informaiton i see and its kinda indexed as i add it. Just part numbers, measurments etc.

Moral of my story is this place seems to be self serve. I kinda like it this way as it keeps the whiny cry babys confinded to other "rules" oriented forums...

Oh ya i forgot to add this :flipoff2: Now i feel like a team player :-)

-mike

Sounds like we should try it.:)


Tire size and wheel base got me thinking after I read one of the threads earlier.


Be right back...:p

37's 84" long, and 78" wide!

WTF!? so you want to comform to the whinning newbies? lol:flipoff2: :zzz: :flipoff2: :zzz: :flipoff2:

isn't organized nor are there many hard facts just opinions.

I think this is in the PBB mission sttement somewhere. :D

fatkid: Tire size and wheel base got me thinking after I read one of the threads earlier.

Did this get ya thinkin a little too? :D :D

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=526719

I like this idea a lot. I'll post my info next week.

Originally posted by Bill4rest
WTF!? so you want to comform to the whinning newbies? lol:flipoff2: :zzz: :flipoff2: :zzz: :flipoff2:


*gasp* the outrage!:mad: .....(:flipoff2: ) never!
think of it like this- the guys that DO continually swap out tires/wheels, stretch and tube, widen etc. have valuable info for us poor sods who maybe can only afford to do things once or twice PERIOD, not every weekend.:D
plus, it's a shame to have some of this stuff gather dust and hardly ever be accessed on any kind of regular basis.:(

ARE, in fact, Sammies more prone to front to back flops via too short (stock) wheelbase?

OR lateral flops due to narrowness of track?

is there a "sweet" spot in the wheelbase/width scenario, or do you immediately begin to compromise when changing?

any *evidence* to support one versus the other?

this is the kind of stuff i'm interested in.

Originally posted by dumb
So post a pic of the side profile of your rig on a flat surface and state your wheelbase, and tire size/type.

OK, I'll play!

Wheelbase stretched 1.5" in the front and 1.5" in the rear, ~5" lift, 33" tires...... I haven't flipped it over backwards, yet!

http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/28-589904-nov07$05.jpg

For the record, stock wheelbase (93.7") with ~8" of lift and 33" tires. I need to move the front axle forward, haven't had any problems in the rear.

http://root.moose.ca/~chris/suzuki/images/topless_muddy_small.jpg

r@m

Thanks Root, CSR and Rude, :flipoff2:

Root,
Any troubles with the overhang in steep climbs where departure becomes relevant?

CSR?
If you went up to 35's would it feels "too short"? What kind of terrain you wheelin? What about 37's (only 2 inches difference in radius - thus two inches taller)?

Rude,
Got a side profile pic? I want 37's and you are the only one besides Fullwidth who has 'em on a zuk. You are at 84", do you need more or is just a want?

UZI,
You'll never conform, will you?

Dave
aka Shogunator

Originally posted by dumb
Root,
Any troubles with the overhang in steep climbs where departure becomes relevant?


It definately drags, have yet to get stopped by it though. I have since made a rear bumper to take the punishment:

rear_corner.jpg (http://root.moose.ca/~chris/suzuki/SJ/rear_bumper/rear_corner.jpg)

assembled.jpg (http://root.moose.ca/~chris/suzuki/SJ/rear_bumper/assembled.jpg)

Should really get some pictures posted of the finished thing...

I tried to make the bumper tuck as close to the body as possible and protect the rear quarters. I cut the bottom of the rear quarters off to run this bar along the body. The bars under the rear quarters are meant for getting the highlift under and are connected to the frame at their ends (still have to complete that part before the May long weekend run).

Still have to get the YJ flares on the newly opened up fender openings, install the x-over steering, lockrights, 4:1 t-case.

Ack!

r@m

:stock wheelbase & axles ~ 31's
:2" S.R. ~ 5" spoa ~ 2" body

will be keeping the stock axles for awhile, but minor wheelbase extension via spring swaps soon.
haven't measured approach/departure angles or done the ramp thingy.
33's when present ones wear out.
(pic is pre-trac bar with shagged rear springs)

ps-Dave: deform, probably. conform, no.:D

Originally posted by dumb
Thanks Root, CSR and Rude, :flipoff2:

Root,
Any troubles with the overhang in steep climbs where departure becomes relevant?

CSR?
If you went up to 35's would it feels "too short"? What kind of terrain you wheelin? What about 37's (only 2 inches difference in radius - thus two inches taller)?

Rude,
Got a side profile pic? I want 37's and you are the only one besides Fullwidth who has 'em on a zuk. You are at 84", do you need more or is just a want?

UZI,
You'll never conform, will you?

Dave
aka Shogunator


I like the width, but im going to stretch out the wheelbase a couple inches....No more than 90 though....I like how short it is, sometimes it gets a little exciting on ledges though!
Im going to try 2" out back and see how that is.
But here is a side shot.

Hey Root,
Don't you think those tow strap mounts are a little on the weak side? :rolleyes: Nice work!

Sounds like the 17th is coming just a little too fast. I'm thinking about lengthening the zuk a little but not with the LWB overhang. I think it will work out well.

UZI,
That's shagedelic! Go 35's, why not?

dave

Originally posted by dumb
Hey Root,
Don't you think those tow strap mounts are a little on the weak side? :rolleyes: Nice work!


You mean where the D-rings attach?

No. I thought they were at first, built them in a vacuum then got to see how others have built/bought theirs.

Mine are about twice the steel, you don't get a good sense of scale in the images. Spent a lot of time with the file/sandpaper/dremel tool cleaning up the stress raisers after the fact since those images were snapped.

No worries. :)

Also, those beams that have the holes drilled through them pass straight through the bumper to fit inside the frame rails. Then they are bolted through the frame - that's what those little steel pucks that are welded on the back side are for - to keep the frame rail from collapsing as the bolts are tightened.

Unfortunately, because of the rear cross member on a SWB you can't do this - kinda stuck with a ARB bumper style mount [ugh] unless you go a different route. Got a coouple of ideas for that but never pursued to see if they are practical.

I am worried about the corners for strength, the tubes are welded to the corner peice which is a peice of round bar stock (~1.75" OD); will plate over top of the corner with tread plate and then drill a hole through for a swing away tire carrier. Probably will gusset under/behind the bumper for a little more overkill and peice of mind.

FYI, POR-15 is heavily over rated stuff. Painted the bumper in it and it is starting to rust already. Could be lack of proper prep but the truck hasn't been driven on road, just sitting outside beside the barn, so I don't buy it. You guys out in B.C. probably don't care though. :D

r@m

Shane, dig the urban 'flage paint scheme.

r@m

Root,
You knew I was kidding about the d-ring points, right? They're beefy, and that's the way I like it! So the crossmember on the LWB is different in the back, that's interesting. I don't really have to worry about the limitations of the SWB frame, as I've made my own frame to accomodate my drivetrain and a few other top secret items :rolleyes:. It was made for the body but I think I will lengthen it a few inches to get a bit more WB and then work on the body.

So POR15 is no good huh? That's too bad I was wondering what to coat the frame with. Back to the drawing board on that one. With the amount of precip we get (and that I live 5 houses from the ocean), the big R is a major concern. Every week we have paint our shiat to keep it lookin good.
IT SUCKS!

Later
Dave
aka Shogunator

Originally posted by dumb
Root,
You knew I was kidding about the d-ring points, right? They're beefy, and that's the way I like it! So the crossmember on the LWB is different in the back, that's interesting. I don't really have to worry about the limitations of the SWB frame, as I've made my own frame to accomodate my drivetrain and a few other top secret items :rolleyes:. It was made for the body but I think I will lengthen it a few inches to get a bit more WB and then work on the body.


I thought you might have been but wasn't sure. :D

On a SWB the rear X-member is really close to the end of the frame rail (~1") while on the LWB the x-member is about 13" away - basically the exact emount the rear over hang is longer than a SWB.

Originally posted by dumb
So POR15 is no good huh? That's too bad I was wondering what to coat the frame with. Back to the drawing board on that one. With the amount of precip we get (and that I live 5 houses from the ocean), the big R is a major concern. Every week we have paint our shiat to keep it lookin good.
IT SUCKS!



I don't think it is worth it - CTC Tremclad will probably work just as well - especially if you are planning on taking the time to do the sand/etch step on new parts.

r@m

Originally posted by Root Moose

I don't think it is worth it - CTC Tremclad will probably work just as well - especially if you are planning on taking the time to do the sand/etch step on new parts.

r@m


RE: por-15 anti-rust paint::mad: i hate it! i had heard this stuff was the bomb for anti rust, but was majorly disapointed with it.

also Hammerite-fawking shit stuff. tried this after the other crap didn't work and it *accelerated* the rust far as i can tell:mad: :D

but ya know what? the always slagged and much maligned Tremclad cheap ass anti rust flat black, has never, ever given me cause to regret using it.
(other than me being the cause of scraping it on stuff), i've never had any rust problem after painting a part with it.:)

POR-15 is used on a lot of the Porsche race cars up here, for the inside of the car and the engine compartment.
I have used this stuff just for that, and it holds up pretty well!

Brush it on and it smooths itself out and you can never tell it was put on with a brush............................It doesnt like oil on the surface that you are painting!!!!!!
There is this stuff called Marine Clean use that and then paint with it!
I might do the inside of the zuk with this stuff!

Originally posted by dumb
CSR?
If you went up to 35's would it feels "too short"? What kind of terrain you wheelin? What about 37's?


I would definitely stretch it out if I put on bigger tires. Another inch or so wouldn't hurt with the tires I'm running now.

I 'wheel mostly at Tellico. My Zuk climbs good, I've felt the front get light a few times, but I guess my low stance keeps my ride rubber-side down. 33's are perfect for me, they're as big as I'll go as long as I'm running these toothpick stock axles!

Originally posted by UZI 9mm
also Hammerite-fawking shit stuff. tried this after the other crap didn't work and it *accelerated* the rust far as i can tell

Yep, Hammerite is just paint, nothing special.

r@m

Originally posted by RudeZuk
Brush it on and it smooths itself out and you can never tell it was put on with a brush............................It doesnt like oil on the surface that you are painting!!!!!!
There is this stuff called Marine Clean use that and then paint with it!


Yep, I did like that about the stuff - it smooths out real nice when brushed.

I did the prep properly I think, just didn't use their etching stuff.

We have this little thing called salt that is aplied to roads 6 months of the year here.

The cost/gallon just isn't worth it to me considering the difference is neglible.

ymmv

r@m

My buddy used some Roll on Bedliner stuff....It seams to work pretty well!

Originally posted by dumb
Hey Root,
Don't you think those tow strap mounts are a little on the weak side? :rolleyes: Nice work!

Sounds like the 17th is coming just a little too fast. I'm thinking about lengthening the zuk a little but not with the LWB overhang. I think it will work out well.

UZI,
That's shagedelic! Go 35's, why not?

dave


Dave, personally I'm going with somewhere between 90" and 93" on my truck. I want to keep it as short as possible but still keep some steep ledge stability! We completely ripped apart all the suspension you and jay did :eek: and I've got the frame completely bare.... (lots of grinding) I removed the gas tank and am moving the rearend back to get probably 92"'s of wheelbase which is where I wanna be. Progress is good and it should be done at the end of this month. The crossmember and motor mounts brackets are already welded in place and we are getting ready to re-inforce the frame-rails. Then re-do the front suspension and from that, do the rear in a triangulated three link.... lots of work but it'll be sweet when it's done. A big problem we ran into was the rearend... it looks as though you guys overheated it when welding and has a slight bow and I'm now looking for a new housing if you know anybody?? And I promise I'll come see that truck soon... I've been really busy getting the toy ready for inspection.... later, Terry

Hmmm...
That's interesting. I wasn't there when Jay welded it up so I can't comment. I wouldn't think that his welder would've had enough juice but maybe it does? Something I'll have to keep in mind. I'm glad to here you are making forward prgress. I've got my tubing notcher now so I can actually get going again this weekend. I've got my wheelbase set up for 89" and I think that is where it's going to stay (I think).

Rude,
Is marine clean a spray can or in jugs like solvent? I'm interested to know more about this stuff. I may just get the frame powder coated though. I didn't want to go that route as I know I'm going to need to do some more suspension tuning as I work the bugs out. It kind of sucks taking a grinder to new powder coat!

CSR,
Tellico is probably pretty similar to what kind of terrain we have here. The wet, slippery, mud /moss covered rocks and everything is up hill (we're in the rockies), so I can appreciate your thoughts on low and stable. How do you like those MTR's in those conditions?

Dave
aka Shogunator

Originally posted by dumb
CSR,
Tellico is probably pretty similar to what kind of terrain we have here. The wet, slippery, mud /moss covered rocks and everything is up hill. How do you like those MTR's in those conditions?

I'm definitely Not an expert on this stuff, but IMO, low and wide is the way to go! Or A way to go. :p With a lower COG, less weight is transferred to the rear when climbing = more stablity and more traction in the front. With a lower stance, I feel I can run a shorter WB. For a "all around" set-up, I think my junk works decent. But, like I said, that's just my opinion.... and it's not worth much. :smokin:

It rained on us All Day the last time we were at Tellico. I was Amazed at how well the MTR's performed in the sloppy rocks. They might slip about a 1/4 turn, then they'd bark on take off like they were on dry pavement. Tellico soil is very sandy though, so it cleans out great. In some good ol' greasy clay-type mud, they might not clean out well. But, for the trails I run, I'm very impressed with them.