Well I went to the FORD dealership yesterday to test drive a truck or two. after driving the ps the guy told me that the v-10 gets the same mileage (not towing) but will keep up with the ps towing. I find this hard to believe, what do you guys think? Does any gas motor compare to a diesel in mileage and towing????
Thanks

I would think the Powerstroke would out tow the V-10 hands down....

I'll wait till all the rumors, "I guess" PSD mileage claims, and diesel heads swear there is no possible reason to own a V10 over a PSD before I answer :rolleyes: ;) :p

No way a v10 will get as good as gas mileage as a PSD. No Way. If you want to pull heavy loads on a regular basis then the PSD is very, very nice way to go. You cant beat a diesel when towing. However, i wouldnt recommend a diesel unless you NEED a diesel. The V10 does a great job at towing and despite the lower MPG's it will probably be cheaper in the long run (depending on how long you keep the truck). My advice would be to drive both and see which one YOU like the best. They both have their advantages. When I test drove them both the acceleration of the V10 was very nice. I went with the PSD instead and now that it is chipped I feel like the PSD is the ONLY way to go. Good luck.

i love the PSD. I wouldn't say that i absolutely NEED a diesel, but i WANTED a diesel. It is just a blast to drive. My is bone stock and still damn powerful. btw, i get about 19 mpg unloaded and 12-14 loaded...if anyone tells you a gasser can keep up with that they're living in a fantasy world.

-Steve

Ford (international) is doing away with the 7.3 PS and coming out with an all aluminum 6.0 PS. It is suppose to be 200-300 lbs lighter and a lot more power. That is suppose to be coming out for next years models. If this motor does what they claim it will be alot better than the V-10.

I love my PSD, but like offroader said if you don't need/want a diesel don't buy one. The maintance is a bit more (about 20 quarts of oil per change)


Craig

ok.. lets forget any powerstrokevs cummins debate. But.. if a cummins gets 20mpg or so, and I know a Ford V10 gets aroun 8mpg (have friends that made mistake of buying one, even after I warned her, fuel economy)

Well.. if a powerstroke doesn't get any better than 8-12mpg then.. what a piece of sh!t it is.

I love my PSD...
But, I would base my decision on your Daily needs and not your towing needs unless you tow alot!
If you drive stop and go in town short distances.....
Get the V10.
If you put on some miles (10 or more) every time you turn the key...
Get the PSD.

The PSD will spank the V10 in MPG, but it will not like mall trips:D

Cory

I had a 2001 V-10 with 4.88 gears. It was the slowest and most under powerd truck I have ever owend. And it got the worst milage.

8-10 empty
4-5 with trailer

Originally posted by DRM
I'll wait till all the rumors, "I guess" PSD mileage claims, and diesel heads swear there is no possible reason to own a V10 over a PSD before I answer :rolleyes: ;) :p


i agree, i think David and i have the same opinion...

a decision like this has to be made by you.... you will be driving it... i love diesels... this is my third one and i will buy another... no gas engines in my rigs.... but thats my opinion.... fuel milage isnt my only issue.... i have had my truck since feb and i allready have 9000 miles on it... i do alot of driving.... back to fuel i get 450 to 500 miles per tank (30 gal) around town local... my trip to tennessee was a fast hard drive.... i was doin about 350 per 30 gal tank.... so without paper and pen... i was roughly at 15 around town,,,,, and 11 towing at 75, 80 mph.... i do have a heavy foot. if anyones main concern is fuel milage.... then go with a cummins..... i like my psd

Ford V10's are the absolute worst engine out there, it's insane that ford stopped using the powerful 460 to build this V10. They get horrible mileage and the tranny is always downshifting (auto) looking for some power. Everytime I drive one at work, these are new trucks by the way, I'm amazed at how gutless they are.

Todd,
You saw Rick's truck. It is a 2000 F250 extended cab, shortbed with a cap. It has the V10, a 5 speed manual tranny and 3.73 gears. We just towed his Kubota tractor with loader to our cottage at Deep Creek Lake and back - from Zelienople, down I-79 and then accross I-68 past morgantown over those long big-ass hills and then on the back roads 10 miles up & down hills to the lake. He got 11 mpg - we measured it. We estimated that the tractor with the loader weighs 3500-3600 lbs. You saw his 18' trailer. It is a corn-pro.

Rick said he gets average 15mpg unloaded. That is average, meaning some highway, some around town (the suburbs). He has around 46K miles on it now, we got it in July 2000.

No speculation, no *somebody elses* truck. This is our truck, we use it to haul our jeeps and our tractor and whatever else. He couldn't be happier with it. I can personally tell you that I think that it has plenty of power and is fun to drive around with the 5 speed and the V10 is not feel underpowered in my book. I don't know how much difference the 5 speed made, but we ordered it with the 5 speed because it actually increased the towing rating. We just plain couldn't afford to shell out the $3500 extra for a diesel.

If I was you, (I assume you are still looking at used), I'd go with whatever you could get the best deal on, but I've seen diesels advertised a few years old used for more than what we paid for Rick's truck new.

-Mel

i had the same problem when i bought my new truck,i went with the psd over v-10.the deisel was $4200 more,but i plan on keeping the truck for many years.i have towed a 6700lbs tractor with a 20 foot bumper pull trailer,it will cruise all day with no problem with that weight.it only gets about 15 to 16 mpg as a daily driver.in my opion,if i was not going to keep a truck for a long time and the loads were staying around the 5000lbs range i would get a gas engine.if you pull 10000lbs then get the deisel...

LOT OF GOOD REPLIES... I KNOW ABOUT THE MONEY. I WANT THE EXTRA MILEAGE I DO DRIVE ABOUT 20 MILES TO WORK RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE MORE IN THE FUTURE.. WELL THANKS FOR ALL THE REPLIES..

I had a cummins and switched to the PSD mileage is good 14 towing 16 18 around town. My friend has a V10 tells me he gets 10 to 6 that sucks.

Well, I have a V10 Excursion 4x4 auto with 4:30 gears that weighs 7200 lbs. and I get 17 on the highway. (crusin 65- 70) If I kick it up to 80-85 it drops to 15. In town sucks-12. That is with nothing hooked on. (haven't towed yet) Look at the Excursion message board and almost all of the V10s get about the same mileage. There are exceptions to every rule. If you are going to pull alot and often get the PSD and don't look back! What ever you do GET A FORD!

a friend of mine has both, the ps will walk all over the v10 towing.
and get better mileage

These PSD mileage claims are killing me over here :laughing:

And the "rumors" about V10 mileage are even funnier :rolleyes:


This is Ford V10 #2 for me... different trucks, different setups - nowhere as bad as some of the crap I am seeing spewn all over here about them. Seriously - some of you guys need to get your facts straight before you try to pass off your opinion as fact :laughing:

19-20 mpg unloaded in a PSD? BS.... show me the mileage records to prove it, because I have yet to see it happen....


I have the mileage records for the first 8k miles in my first V10 truck - and although it is lower than VERIFIED mileage records I have seen on PSD's, it is nowhere as bad as some of you would like to think....


I swear - as much as some of you whine about people talking about things they don't know about - I am sure seeing a lot of it here....

There is one thing I heard at least about the V10 on the Dodge. Lets assume the Ford V10 is similar.

The Dodge 360-V8 Magnum, according to the owner of a V10, who once towed the same trailer with the 360. Said.. the V8 walked all over the V10 power wise. Personally, I was suprised to hear this, but after talking to a couple mechanics.. they weren't.

Anyone able to explain that?

(This was mentioned in the "towing with a 360" thread in the Dodge forum.)

Originally posted by twaldher
There is one thing I heard at least about the V10 on the Dodge. Lets assume the Ford V10 is similar.

The Dodge 360-V8 Magnum, according to the owner of a V10, who once towed the same trailer with the 360. Said.. the V8 walked all over the V10 power wise. Personally, I was suprised to hear this, but after talking to a couple mechanics.. they weren't.

Anyone able to explain that?

(This was mentioned in the "towing with a 360" thread in the Dodge forum.)

Kinda an educated guess and I don't know the specifics of the engines, but if they are roughly the same size in cubic inches then maybe it has something to do w/ the displacement per cylinder.

A I-6 300 ford will out pull a v8 302, and I believe it has to do the the larger displacement per cylinder creating more torque.

Again this is simply an educated guess, so someone tell me if I'm off my rocker.

Well.. as long as that larger displacement per cylinder is achieved in stroke length.

what sleighed me was the time I flew past 3 diesels on a mountain pass.. loaded down more than them. Was feeling good.. until the kenworth kicked my butt doing 80mph. (I was 70mph in 2nd)

Originally posted by twaldher
There is one thing I heard at least about the V10 on the Dodge. Lets assume the Ford V10 is similar.

The Dodge 360-V8 Magnum, according to the owner of a V10, who once towed the same trailer with the 360. Said.. the V8 walked all over the V10 power wise. Personally, I was suprised to hear this, but after talking to a couple mechanics.. they weren't.

Anyone able to explain that?

(This was mentioned in the "towing with a 360" thread in the Dodge forum.)


to this is say CAN"T be true with the Fords..... The ford 5.4 is only ADEQUITE pulling 4000lbs in a F150 supercrew it couldn't handle the North Georgia Hills at 70 mph. com awn its only 4000 lbs.

Back on topic

The PSD with with my work pulls around 10000-12000 often doin pretty long hauls (400 miles) and it pulls it at 73 mph

Originally posted by dangerranger33



to this is say CAN"T be true with the Fords..... The ford 5.4 is only ADEQUITE pulling 4000lbs in a F150 supercrew it couldn't handle the North Georgia Hills at 70 mph. com awn its only 4000 lbs.

Back on topic

The PSD with with my work pulls around 10000-12000 often doin pretty long hauls (400 miles) and it pulls it at 73 mph

Yeah.. unfortunately I am not familiar with Ford engines. Could only compare to my Dodge engine. My 360, can pull a 7,000lb trailer up a something like 7% grade (think thats what the sign said) doing 55mph at peak HP. (RV's, Ryder trucks, etc. get stuck at 35mph)

Originally posted by DRM
These PSD mileage claims are killing me over here :laughing:

And the "rumors" about V10 mileage are even funnier :rolleyes:


This is Ford V10 #2 for me... different trucks, different setups - nowhere as bad as some of the crap I am seeing spewn all over here about them. Seriously - some of you guys need to get your facts straight before you try to pass off your opinion as fact :laughing:

19-20 mpg unloaded in a PSD? BS.... show me the mileage records to prove it, because I have yet to see it happen....


I have the mileage records for the first 8k miles in my first V10 truck - and although it is lower than VERIFIED mileage records I have seen on PSD's, it is nowhere as bad as some of you would like to think....


I swear - as much as some of you whine about people talking about things they don't know about - I am sure seeing a lot of it here....


VERY WELL PUT!

You guys need to read this quote 7 times, and really think about it....

Originally posted by Blue 84



VERY WELL PUT!

You guys need to read this quote 7 times, and really think about it....



ok.. DRM bashing begins....

fine... DRM.. you call BS on the milleage of the powerstroke? TELL US what you have seen in other Powerstrokes... AS WELL as your records for your V10! otherwise STFU and stay in chit-chat. you haven't added any value to this thread, except for whining about other people whining.

[you haven't added any value to this thread, [/B]

Ummmm, DRM spoke of his experiences with his FORD which is what this thread is about, all you piped up about is Dodge V8 vs. Dodge V10......

When you start comparing Diesel vs. Gas mileage figures you should also look at Diesel vs. Gas prices at the pumps. Where I am, Diesel is about 6cents a Litre ( 22cents a gallon ) cheaper. This pays for the extra cost of the Diesel pretty quick if you put a lot of miles on, even if the V10 gets the same mileage. As well high mileage Diesels hold their resale value better, and have a lower overall cost to maintain if you put on a lot of miles. IMO

If it rattles and wines its good.

Sorry to amuse you but my PSD gets 18 unloaded. Most of the miles are freeway. Another thing is the Dodge V10 does not even compare to the ford V10. The Ford V10 is no slouch. I cant say what mileage it gets but it is a very powerful engine. At least the one I drove was. The thing you have to be careful about is there are many guys who are diesel/gas loyal. Whatever it is they drive they will try to defend and try to convince why it is better. Bottom line is drive them both and decide what is best for you. Afterall, you are the one buying the truck. Good luck.

I once got 37 MPG on my moms 99 SD V10 crew cab 4x longbed


not shittin ya



although i did have a 45 mph tail wind;)

but on average I get 12-13 mpg when I drive my dad on the other hand gets 9-10

I could even do better than 13 if when accelerating i dont go past 2000 rppm and glide along shouting at the ricers "Im burning more gas than you are" :D

I just recorded 360 miles on 22 gallons (16.36 mpg) in my NEW Ford oil burner....

I drove both and like the way the PSD idles down the interstate. Buy one now either way and take advantage of 0 percent, that offer will be gone soon.

Originally posted by Mel85CJ


Ummmm, DRM spoke of his experiences with his FORD which is what this thread is about, all you piped up about is Dodge V8 vs. Dodge V10......

in comparing mpg figures... which is what he was talking about. he provided no valuable input. Obviously... he had the information (according to him) he could have posted it.

Originally posted by twaldher

ok.. DRM bashing begins....

I would have appreciated if you had bashed my info - I guess you can't do that, so you bash me :rolleyes:

fine... DRM.. you call BS on the milleage of the powerstroke? TELL US what you have seen in other Powerstrokes...


I am telling you what I have NOT seen - any kind of recorded mileage charts for a PSD... Have you seen mileage records? DO share them...

AS WELL as your records for your V10!

Check my web site - the Tech Info page... If I was not in another state right now on vacation, I would be adding the mileage records to a page I am currently in the process of creating.

If you care enough - wait a week and you CAN read them...


otherwise STFU and stay in chit-chat. you haven't added any value to this thread, except for whining about other people whining. [/QUOTE]

You make me laugh :laughing:

So I have had my 2001 F250 PSD 4X4 w/6spd for almost one yeaar now. I bout it used with 32,000 miles on it and it just passed 62,000 this weekend. I kept milage recods like DRM for about the firts 10 tanks and then I said screw it cause I don't really care. I can tell you the best I ever recorded was on a trip up to Glacier National Park and I got 23mpg but I was crusing at an average of 55-60 MPH. Normaly my crusing speed is more around 80MPH and on average I would say I get around 17mpg.

Do I care??????? NO.

Is it impracticle since I never tow with it and I could probably get away with a Honda Civic?????? YES

Once again I ask, DO I CARE?????? NO

Buy what you want and can afford. Some will say that the PSD will pay for itself but if you run the numbers you would have to put way over 300,000 mile on the truck for it to pay off. Remeber Diesel (in most places) diesel is the same price as gas and remeber the average oil change for the PSD cost a good $40 just for the oil and filter then throw in the Fuel filter change every so often(more often than a gas rig thow). And then you get to deal with modding it up so you can actually get on it and have some fun. Well let me say I would have more money if I had bougt a V10 but like I said before.

DO I CARE?????? NO

So yes I agree with DRM in the fact that a 20MPG out of a PSD for somebodey that drives over 60 is pretty rare but with a strong tail wind anything is possible :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

I know a guy who plows somewhere between 300-400 houses:eek: during the winter and he just got a new F-350 V-10 with 4:10 gears and he wouldn't trade it for anything. He said that he thought about the diesel, but decided that when he wasn't plowing that it wouldn't be as useful as an all around truck. The truck takes one hell of a beating, but it does fine.

Jason

If PSD have a different auto then the V-10's get the PSD!!!!! the tranny behind the V-10's and V-8's are total crap, I know 5 people with Super duties 3 have had trannies go out and one has a diesel the other is the master of dumb luck. One of our work trucks is a 2000 V-10 f-350 with auto, hauled around a trailer that probably weighs 4000lbs or much less and sometimes had a ton of grass in the bed. The truck now has 60,000 miles and is on its 4th tranny. The trailer is now hooked up to a 94 F-350 with 460 5-speed. Both pull adiquetly just we can trust the 8 year old truck day in day out. Another good story sense people will claim the tranny problems are all long gone a truck with 1800miles just dumped its tanny last week.

oh yeah milage and all doesnt really matter, the PSD gets a little better from what I've seen but who really cares? Just eat the initial cost of getting a good hauling/towing motor if thats what you want.

edit: I'm not just baseing my opinion off these 5 people experiance these are just the only first hand experiances, but I think they are damn good sense I've never seen anyone dump a tranny in a brand new truck until my freinds started buying super duties

Originally posted by DRM
[i] If I was not in another state right now on vacation, I would be adding the mileage records to a page I am currently in the process of creating.


Oh my god. A true sign of a web wheeler. On vacation but still cant stay off the computer.:flipoff2: :beer:

Wow, here in Colorado if you had a choice and had to tow a rig I would say most people would choose the PSD. Based on its performance alone. The PSD will kick the Gassers ass in the mountains here. Everytime I go up I-70 here you see the Diesels in the left lanes and the gassers in the right. The gassers are going the 25-55mph the Diesels are goinr the 60-80mph. Around here it's no contest with the mountains being right by here. I am sure the V10 makes lots of power on the non-hills but when you reach the mountains its a no-brainer.

a few thoughts (and a few questions :flipoff2: )

high altitude driving: a forced induction engine - especially one with computer controlled variable boost like a turbo diesel - is going to kick the crap out of a naturally aspirated engine at high altitudes. the turbo can compensate for thinner air by increasing the boost pressure.

v8 vs v10: bring back the 460, dammit! :mad:
i'll lay good money on a OHV BB any day of the week vs some damn SOHC small v10 for towing. what the hell was ford thinking? :rolleyes:

question: is driving a diesel any different than driving a gasoline engine? i've never owned a diesel truck and am curious

thanks :)

Originally posted by CrazyCraig
Ford (international) is doing away with the 7.3 PS and coming out with an all aluminum 6.0 PS. It is suppose to be 200-300 lbs lighter and a lot more power. That is suppose to be coming out for next years models. If this motor does what they claim it will be alot better than the V-10.

I love my PSD, but like offroader said if you don't need/want a diesel don't buy one. The maintance is a bit more (about 20 quarts of oil per change)


Craig I work for International and drove one of these the other day. I was in a much larger truck mind you. We call it a vt365 but yes it is a 6.0L. Holy fawk did that thing go. If they are in fact putting that in the fords(which is supposidly what thay are doing) I will buy one in a heart beat. A buddy has a 2002 lariat f350 cc dw that went from the dealer to the shop to have a larger turbo and chip put in as well as a better exhaust and it doesnt even flinch towing a 10,000 pound trailer. This new engine has more power than that thing by far. I am not sure if it will be set up the same way in the fords. May have some smaller components on it.

Read some more of the post. As for mileage buddies truck has been getting any where from 10 to 18 mpg. As for the v10 I can add from expirence (working at ford) that it all depends on the gearing. That engine really sucks if it has higher(numerically) gears. If you only drive really short distances everyday and will get rid of the truck in a few years get the v10 with 4.10 or 3.73's. If you drive longer distances and can let the truck warm up and will have it few many years then get the deisel. Add some of the goodies on the market and it will improve the mileage and power.

Willypete- they drive pretty much the same just rev lower.

One more thing to add- your maintenence costs are higher yes but you dont do it as often(like oil changes)

drm..... my driving style verse another makes totally different mpg results... on the average in town and some freeway... i get 15 mpg.... i could better this by slowing down a little and pulling out a little easier.... it is not far off to get 18 empty in a psd..... but i dont get it... like i said i get 15ish....

now as for towing yes it does go down... 11 to 12 but thats hitting it hard and pushing every mountain with the pedal down.... i dont know numbers but ive towed with a few buddys that have gassers..... 97 ford 460 auto..... he was doin about 3.75 tanks to my 2 tanks...... i asked him what his milage figured out to be and he said fawk it, he dont care and dont wanna know.... lol

If you want an oil burner then get one. I believe that someone did a spread sheet on Ford Diesel and came up the the number of 70 000 miles to break even with a gas motor; after that it's money in the bank. My '99 PSD is great I average 1000km on a 140Litre tank which works out to 17-18mpg on 35's with 3:73's. PSDs do have a fuel delivery problem though and if you can wait I'd get a new 6.0L (vt365) in the fall. And who ever said that it is aluminum is way off base, it's all cast iron and 100lbs heavier then the current 7.3 (t444e). If you can't wait then to Ford-Diesel and look at doing the Hutch, TT and Bob Reily mods to the fuel system.

JP

The Oil burner does have fuel delivery problems - and the 6.0 should be pretty damn cool... Wish I had $45 to put down on a new truck :).

As for mileage. I get 16-17 on our PSD CC. My sister's ex-fiance had a 99 V10 and he was getting 10-12 when not towing, 8-9 towing. Around town the diesel doesn't do very well - as someone said, it does take a long time to warm up - but on the road it rocks.

Yes, it's more expensive to do oil changes - what do you expect when the oil pan takes over 4 gallons of oil?

As for the diesel vs. gas pay off... Someone recently compared the Duramax to the GM 8.1. All things considered equal, including price of fuel, the Duramax paid for itself in < 40K miles. That 8.1 sucks fuel madly!

If you plan on keeping it for a long time, doing a lot of towing, driving through the mountains, buy the PSD... Do the fuel systems mods and love life.
bkg

Originally posted by DRM

19-20 mpg unloaded in a PSD? BS.... show me the mileage records to prove it, because I have yet to see it happen....


I can't show you anything but I will say I work for a company that owns 2 of them and 2 buddies that got em and they all run 17-18 MPG consistantly and towing the WORST tank we've had is 9.5 mpg and that was headin from ATL to Orlando pulling 12000+ V10 ain't gonna pull like that there just ain't no way. Also those PSD are so UNareodynamic the differance in 70 mph and 80mph is about 2mpg

I don't know of ANYONE who has sold a Diesel, either PSD or cummins, and bought a gasser. I know a number of guys who have gone the other direction, and never looked back.

Turbocharged diesels will make thier rated power and torque at any altitude, and at cruising RPM.

Normally aspirated gassers will be about 25% below ratings in Denver or Albuquerque (the only two places I've called home) and will drop below that as you climb. If you live at altitude, there is really no choice.

Interesting that a gasser guy is calling bullshit on the fuel milage claims. I've seen 20+ MPG well documented over 1000s of miles by diesel owners. By re-gearing to 3.55 (from 4.10) I am now making the 19-20 MPG running unloaded at ~80 MPH on the interstate. Previously was getting around 16-17. The CTDs usually do yet a little better.

Just Got back from a trip to Flagstaff/Sedona area. Carrying a 1500# non-streamlined slide-in camper, and towing a 5x8 U-haul with about 700# of motorcycle and other junk in it. Mix of mountain driving an 80 MPH interstate, including about 50 miles bucking a 30-40 MPH head wind (yes, really!) Only fill-up to fill-up stretch in this configuration was 513 miles, 38.1 gallons = ~13.5 MPG. I ain't complaining at all. 5-600 miles between fuel stops lets you be a little choosier about where you spend your money too.

I have driven more Ford trucks in both the v-10 and PS in just about every conciveable configuration than I care to remember. I also deal with drivablity issues including fuel milage on Ford products for a living. The PS (especially '01 and newer) SPANKS the v-10 in milage. I am not going to quote numbers because in real world driving, there are too many variables to set a realistic guideline. My best estimation would be 6-7 mpg in favor of the PSD in a pickup, and only a few mpg in Motor homes and F550. (alot of drag) Government guidelines are a joke. But, with the $4500.00 price tag for the PSD option, it will take you almost 100k miles to make up the money difference in milage. If you tow in the mountain states, PSD hands down. One thing you have to remember about the v-10 is that is a small cid, overhead cam motor that needs to rev to make power. Alot of people are kind of put off by having to rev their motor to 5 grand to make HP while pulling a grade, especially if they are used to good old big blocks.
If I did alot of city driving or lived back east, I would have to look closely at the v-10. If milage is really a concern get the 5.4L v-8.
My wife's get 18 mpg unloaded hy. and will tow my rig on a trailer on flat ground at 85 mph all day at 11 mpg.

If this helps ? I own a 2000 Dodge 3/4T V10. (488CID.) Automatic trans, 4X4. 3.73,s . The best milage I have ever gotten, empty, is 16.8 .(at 80mph) The worst millage I,ve ever gottem loaded pulling 7000 lbs. is 6.4 . (at 80 mph) There is nothing I dislike about my truck, except the MPG. I can pull anything I want at any speed up hills and it will do it ! BUT, my MPG suck. I have had NO problems with this truck, and it is scary fast !


:jeep: __(OIIIIIIIO)__rOkOn:usa:

ever drive a pickup with 700 foot pounds of torque ? drive my 02 psd and you will become a convert. one word.......... awesome!

do not forget to factor in that a well maintained diesel will easily go 400,000 miles.

drm hate to break it to ya but i routinely get 20 mpg on road trips and 15 mixed driving.

zags, that's a good point about the mountains. Here in Colorado i rarely drive below 6000ft. The turbo diesel feels SO much more powerful than the N/A gas engines which lose considerable horsepower due to altitude. It's really a no-contest around here.

-Steve