T19 --> 203/205 doubler [Archive]

MochaMike

11-26-2006, 11:20 AM

The Chevy 203s came with inputs to match 10-spline (SM465), 27-spline (TH350), and 32-spline (TH400 and late model SM465). The Ford 203s are all 31-spline. Dodge had 203 mated to 727 (23-spline I think)..

That's some good, accurate tech right there.

The TH400 32 spline 203 is a good score.

10 spline 203s only came in 74 Blazers, pretty rare.
The 32 spline TH400 versions can be found, but are pricey.

32 spline 465s came with 205s, 208s & 241s behind them.
I don't think I've ever seen a stock 465/203 combo that is 32 spline.
You have to re-drill the 203 box to mate to the adapter (standard round).

Last year I picked up a 465 for about $150.
I found input less 203 for free last month & I just bought a 32 spline input from ChiScouter.

I'm either going to go 203 to flipped D300 (I got a HP60) or the new Stak black box to Ford 205.

I like the fact that D300s & the black box have 2.6/2.7:1 versus 1.96:1 (giving more reduction selections).

My IH engine/tranny knowledge is limited, but how hard is it to put a Chebby tranny on an IH powerplant?

Mechanos

11-26-2006, 11:23 AM

I guess I'm just a little bit backwards than most other sheeple.... I prefer my built auto for my tow rig, but I still prefer the stick in my trail rig. :laughing:

The sad thing is I already have a Scout D300 and sitting in the corner of my basement (still new in their boxes) I have a TeraLow 4:1 kit, AA 32-spline short tail rear output, and a JB Conversions 32-spline front output. With the rash of broken 300 cases I've been reading about lately (and Stak not committing to building a Texas pattern Replace-a-case) I'm seriously considerding selling all that stuff going with a 203/205 doubler.

tsm1mt

11-26-2006, 11:47 AM

$500 gets an adapter from Novak to a round patern t'case with 21 or 23 spline output.

Is the 203 a round pattern 'case?

tsm1mt

11-26-2006, 11:50 AM

MochaMike

11-26-2006, 12:01 PM

Is the 203 a round pattern 'case?

Nope.

It's a big flat case.

I think 1-2 holes line up... The others have to be drilled & tapped.

Not to badmouth Duffy, but he has been really busy & is hard to get a hold of.

I picked up a 32 spline 241 rangebox because he said he was going to start doing 241s for the Chevy guys... He did one run & said no more.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=529871

Berd

11-26-2006, 12:12 PM

The easiest way that I could think of when I pondered this setup would be to find a 4wd ford T-19 and snag it.

Then one would simply put the Ford mainshaft in ones own IH T-19 then drill and tap the rear of said IH T-19 to use the adapter from the Ford tranny.

Then use a Ford 203 to whatever 205 you want and bammo.

The only problem is finding a 4wd Ford T-19 most of the ones I've seen have been T-18's but I'm still looking:D

harkinoff

11-26-2006, 03:45 PM

http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm

Mechanos

11-26-2006, 06:06 PM

Thanks Randy... I've already been there and done some reading. If I get a chance tomorrow, I'm going to call ORD and talk to them about it. Put a PM into Dean as Jeff suggested above. Dean said they made a custom adapter for the trans to 203 that was only about 1.25" thick. Then had Sierra Transmission respline the output shaft to 32-spline. This sounds like it would end up being about the shortest overall lenght and would most likely be the direction I would go.

The Novak adapter kit basically uses this same approach. It's a T19 to round pattern adapter and a new mainshaft for the transmission. Since it's intended to mate a T19 to a Jeep 300, the new mainshaft is 23-spline. The Novak adapter is also 3.2" long. I would rather go with the shorter adapter and 32-spline tranny output shaft.

TheCopperCowboy

11-26-2006, 10:12 PM

tsm1mt

11-26-2006, 10:20 PM

Sounds like, after adapters, transfercases, driveshafts, and crossmember fabrication, you're into Atlas or Klune V territory and some $. You said you were going to strench the wheelbase, what about using a IH 4 speed with a divorced 203 out of a 200 pick-up, and attach the 205 onto that? That combo would be fawking huge! I know where there's a Dodge 727 w/ a 203 attached. (I know, auto ain't man enough for you). :flipoff2: Either way, you'll have a couple of grand worth of DIY parts & labor, just bite the bullet and get the 4 speed Atlas. :smokin:

Divoced 203 out of a 200 pickup? Is that a Dodge, because IH never used the 203..

The way I figure it, it's ~$1000 plus the junkyard parts to do the T19/231-box/Dana 300 (or, I suppose, a late SAE6 NP205). (231 - $80-ish, 300 ~$150)

$500 to adapt to an Atlas, plus you need the Atlas of course.

The 203/205 is around $1000 (~$800 for the doubler, $200-ish for the new input for the second 205, unless you find the TH400 205) PLUS adapting to the trans (though from reading, maybe we could get away with robbing parts from a Ford T-19 and use a Dodge '203 IIRC).

Mr Scout's box is.. $1800? Last time I checked..

Mechanos

11-26-2006, 10:39 PM

Gen. Nonsense

11-26-2006, 10:43 PM

Divoced 203 out of a 200 pickup? Is that a Dodge, because IH never used the 203..

The way I figure it, it's ~$1000 plus the junkyard parts to do the T19/231-box/Dana 300 (or, I suppose, a late SAE6 NP205). (231 - $80-ish, 300 ~$150)

$500 to adapt to an Atlas, plus you need the Atlas of course.

The 203/205 is around $1000 (~$800 for the doubler, $200-ish for the new input for the second 205, unless you find the TH400 205) PLUS adapting to the trans (though from reading, maybe we could get away with robbing parts from a Ford T-19 and use a Dodge '203 IIRC).

Mr Scout's box is.. $1800? Last time I checked..
You forgot the Klune. I had the set up priced out about a year and a half ago. It was about $1300 thru a PBB vendor.

Dont forget the $400+ for new driveshafts :rolleyes:

tsm1mt

11-26-2006, 10:49 PM

You forgot the Klune. I had the set up priced out about a year and a half ago. It was about $1300 thru a PBB vendor.

Dont forget the $400+ for new driveshafts :rolleyes:

That just ups the cost more.. but I had been pondering it for a bit, too - with the big advantage over a 231 setup that Klune will set it up for a NP205 behind it.

The downside to the 231/300 combo is IF you break the 300 case, what do you do? I haven't seen the just-case cost for the STaK 300 case yet, but that's one option.. the other is... put an Atlas behind the 231. $$$.

As for the driveshafts.. those are a given, since Mechanos is changing axles and everything else anyhow (and I'm still napkin-sketching the same)

Mechanos

11-26-2006, 10:57 PM

Yeah, like Tom said, since I'm swapping 1/2 ton axles for 1 ton axles that will be in different locations, new driveshafts are a given. Besides... there's no way I'd leave 1310 driveshafts in the rig with 1 tons.

Gen. Nonsense

11-26-2006, 10:59 PM

I would run the Atlas behind a Klune :p

Unfortunatly, the money tree in my back yard died.

Gen. Nonsense

11-26-2006, 10:59 PM

Besides... there's no way I'd leave 1310 driveshafts in the rig with 1 tons.
Pussy :flipoff2:

R290

11-26-2006, 11:03 PM

It's just a bunch of thinking out loud right now. That puny little D300 case does worry me though. I'd just hate to setup the front axle (pinion angle) for the D300 only to break it and have to go to another route that would require a change in the front pinion angle.

I see your going down the complete picture path. Leg bone connected to the knee bone, and to what transfere case? All this figuring, just to know where them axles should go. Well the good news is they make a clocking ring for the round bolt pattern( if you go that route) and you can clock the transfere case up and down to keep the front pinon angle close to what it was:D

Mechanos

11-26-2006, 11:09 PM

I see your going down the complete picture path. Leg bone connected to the knee bone, and to what transfere case? All this figuring, just to know where them axles should go. Well the good news is they make a clocking ring for the round bolt pattern( if you go that route) and you can clock the transfere case up and down to keep the front pinon angle close to what it was:D
I'm not sure how much good a clocking ring would do. If I went the doubler route later, I guess there's always the option of using a two piece front driveshaft with the pillow block positioned where the original front output yoke was. Then the angle to the pinion wouldn't change.

472Scout

11-27-2006, 03:28 AM

Creepy196

11-27-2006, 02:50 PM

I would run the Atlas behind a Klune :p

Unfortunatly, the money tree in my back yard died.

You can't run an IH four speed directly in front of a Klune without an adapter. You'd have to get it from Advance as stated or Novak.

http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_183.htm

The Novak site states that their $489.00 adapter will work with any manufacturer's T19 or T18, whether 2WD or 4WD style (must state which when ordering). It's actualy a T18/T19-to-D300 adapter, but would work with a 23 spline input Klune, or with a Ford round pattern NP203 (or a redrilled GM) using a Dodge 23 spline input (available from NWFab amoung others).

Still, five bills + the price of a Klune is getting up there... :eek:

Oh and putting a Klune in front of an Atlas is the same as making an Atlas 4-Speed case, but with spending more $$$.

https://eshop.advanceadapters.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=2693&czuid=1164663707195

The 4-Speed Atlas costs $2900.

A Klune is what, $1300-ish. A 'regular' 2-speed Atlas is $2200-ish minus whatever discounts PBB vendors will give you. That's $3500 or so for the same thing as a 4-speed Atlas (which comes packaged together all nice and neat).

https://eshop.advanceadapters.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=2659&czuid=1164663911716

This is all just mental-masturbating however, as the money tree in my yard died long ago as well... :flipoff2:

tsm1mt

11-27-2006, 03:14 PM

The Novak site states that their $489.00 adapter will work with any manufacturer's T19 or T18, whether 2WD or 4WD style (must state which when ordering). It's actualy a T18/T19-to-D300 adapter, but would work with a 23 spline input Klune, or with a Ford round pattern NP203 (or a redrilled GM) using a Dodge 23 spline input (available from NWFab amoung others).

Having just started researching this 203 angle, it looks like there should be a combination of parts available from a Ford T19 we could use (and redrill for our case) that would ultimately let us run a Ford 203 (or a Dodge?) behind an IH T19.. then you're on your way to the doubler with a Chevy/Dodge 205.

I'm not too terribly interested in this route, though. I'm much more intrigued by a 231 box between the 205 and T19. 2.72 and 1.96:1 lows, not 2:1 and 1.96:1.. with the 203/205, you really only get 3 speeds (1:1, 2:1, and 4:1), but with the 231(or Klune)/NP205 we're into 1:1, 2.72, 1.96, and 5.3:1. Likewise, the 231/300 sorta sucks with 2.62 and 2.72 options.. but 7.1:1 wouldn't suck.

If you're going to go 203/205 I'd have to start pondering how much I *really* want 2:1.. and weigh that against T19-->Jeep Dana 300 with a 4:1 and just keep the STaK SAE case in mind while selling any Scout 300s I had to cover the T19 adapter cost..

I'm with Mech - I'd want to know what combo of t'cases I'm running before I burned anything in for the 4-link and driveshafts, only to have to change things because my output locations moved - and running a pillow block on the front would eliminate one of the bennies of going to a dual case setup - the chance to NOT out-travel the front driveshaft.

I'd like to hear how the 300 with a new case stacks up to the NP205..

This is all just mental-masturbating however, as the money tree in my yard died long ago as well... :flipoff2:

Which is why ya hafta get it right the first time. :)

MochaMike

11-27-2006, 04:41 PM

tsm1mt

11-27-2006, 04:56 PM

Adapters are one of the things that turned me off with a Klune.

NWFs Black box is currently $1400.
No adapters required to run it from a 465 to a 205.

We Offer input spline counts of 21, 23, 27, 29, 31, and 32.

I don't see 10-sp 465 OR 6-spline T19 in that list..

Looks like a ~$500 adapter (or scrounge Ford parts) again..

Ben W

11-27-2006, 05:02 PM

Adapters are one of the things that turned me off with a Klune.

NWFs Black box is currently $1400.
No adapters required to run it from a 465 to a 205.

So, figure $1400, $100 for a 205 & $100 for a rebuild kit.
Best bang for your buck I think.

Now, if you can run the black box to the T19, then your in business.

This statement doesn't make sense. If the Black Box will bolt up to your transmission, the Klune Goliath will also bolt up without adapters. The front of both of those boxes are the same, and they have the same options for input spline. Maybe you are talking about the Klune David, which has fewer choices for input spline, but that is not a direct comparison since the David is 4:1 and the Black box is 2.72:1.

Either box will bolt up to a round pattern 205 (ford or late GM), the Klune just needs a spacer for shift rod clearance, I'm guessing the Black Box eliminated the need for a seperate spacer by making the case longer.

Ben W

11-27-2006, 05:11 PM

I'm not too terribly interested in this route, though. I'm much more intrigued by a 231 box between the 205 and T19.

Are you aware of the shifter issues involved in the 231 (or 241) to 205 combo? One of the 205 shift rails is very close to the input, and is going to interfere with the case of the planetary box. This is why the Klune, Black Box, and 203 to 205 round pattern doublers have the big notch in the backside.

It is going to take some creativity to make the 205 shifter work, this is why there hasn't been much (any?) info out there on people actually running the 231/241 to 205 adapters.

misterfubar

11-27-2006, 05:45 PM

Adapt your 345 to a NV4500 and run an atlas behind it, that's my plan...

I'll just have to sell my liver and probably a kidney to fund it.

Mechanos

11-27-2006, 06:10 PM

Having just started researching this 203 angle, it looks like there should be a combination of parts available from a Ford T19 we could use (and redrill for our case) that would ultimately let us run a Ford 203 (or a Dodge?) behind an IH T19.. then you're on your way to the doubler with a Chevy/Dodge 205....
Yeah, I came across that the other day while reading up on this shit. You can take the adater and mainshaft from a Ford T19, swap the mainshaft into the IH trans and redrill the case to accept the Ford adapter. Then use a Ford 203 and GM (or Dodge with some input swapping) 205. [I'm really just looking at the ORD Gen2 Doubler that will only mate to a 32-spline 205 input. The 32 spline was only offered in the TH400/205 combo, so if you use any other 205, you'd have to swap the input. Some cases will have to be machined to accept the larger bearing of the 32-spline input gear.]

The reason I'm looking at ORD is because their new Gen2 design is very short. This cuts the overall length of the Doubler down to 21.5". Using the Ford mainshaft and adapter adds quite a bit of length to the overall drivetrain. I'm looking at a "custom" adapter that is only 1.125" that would used a cut down and resplined T19 mainshaft. With a t-case setup that is already 21.5" long without the trans adapter, I'm looking at the shortest trans adapter option possible.

Anybody happen to know the spline diameter of the TH400 32-spline output shaft?

Ben W

11-27-2006, 06:14 PM

Anybody happen to know the spline diameter of the TH400 32-spline output shaft?

Roughly 1 3/8"

Mechanos

11-27-2006, 06:32 PM

Roughly 1 3/8"
Thanks... that's what I was guessing it to be. I measured one of my 32-spline D300 outputs and it is 1.371"... so, roughly 1 3/8". I just wasn't sure if that the TH400 shaft was the same.

That maybe a bit of a problem with the resplining a T19 shaft idea. I measured a T19 10-spline shaft and came up with the same 1.371" major diameter and a 1.155" minor diameter. The 32-spline shaft I had here to measure was again 1.371" major diameter with a 1.294 minor diameter. That would mean that a lot of the 32 splines would fall in the voids between the 10 splines. The existing splines would have to be filled in before the new splines could be cut. Of course this would also require the shaft to be re-heat treated. Hhmmmmm.... going to have to talk to a machinist on that one.

MochaMike

11-27-2006, 07:06 PM

This statement doesn't make sense. If the Black Box will bolt up to your transmission, the Klune Goliath will also bolt up without adapters. The front of both of those boxes are the same, and they have the same options for input spline. Maybe you are talking about the Klune David, which has fewer choices for input spline, but that is not a direct comparison since the David is 4:1 and the Black box is 2.72:1..

When I emailed Klune about adapters required, they told me that I'd need a spacer from AA for the 205 & an adapter... Driving the cost up another $400-600. (I just looked, but couldn't find the email I got... I think my kid deleted it).

Kyle at NWF told me that the BB is a direct bolt on because the price includes whichever input you need.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=520067

All of this was for a 32 spline SM465.
(I asked klune ahead of time before I bought the 32 spline 465).

tsm1mt

11-27-2006, 10:44 PM

That maybe a bit of a problem with the resplining a T19 shaft idea. I measured a T19 10-spline shaft and came up with the same 1.371" major diameter and a 1.155" minor diameter. The 32-spline shaft I had here to measure was again 1.371" major diameter with a 1.294 minor diameter. That would mean that a lot of the 32 splines would fall in the voids between the 10 splines. The existing splines would have to be filled in before the new splines could be cut. Of course this would also require the shaft to be re-heat treated. Hhmmmmm.... going to have to talk to a machinist on that one.

Cut the shaft deeper and put a sleeve on it.

What's the diameter of the 6-spline T19 shaft?

Mechanos

11-27-2006, 11:01 PM

Cut the shaft deeper and put a sleeve on it.

What's the diameter of the 6-spline T19 shaft?
The 6 spline shaft is the same ~1.375" major diameter and ~1.185" minor diameter. The minor diameter is still smaller than the minor diameter of the 32-spline shaft I measured. Granted, it's not the actual 32-spline trans output shaft, so I suppose those spline dimensions could be different.

I need to call transmission shop and talk to them. Supposedly, they are able to respline the mainshaft to whatever the customer wants. I need to get some more info from them.

Creepy196

11-28-2006, 02:00 AM

Having just started researching this 203 angle, it looks like there should be a combination of parts available from a Ford T19 we could use (and redrill for our case) that would ultimately let us run a Ford 203 (or a Dodge?) behind an IH T19.. then you're on your way to the doubler with a Chevy/Dodge 205.

The Ford T18 and T19 TC adapters I've seen have all been quite long (as mentioned by Mechanos). My quick junkyard eyeball measurements have placed them at somewhere around 6"-8" IIRC. They're also a weird pattern at the tranny side which our IH application T18/T19 cases may or may not have enough iron in the propper places to be machined for. That'd take some close examination and comparisons.

Also, I have seen very few T18/19 equipped Ford 4X4s with married NP205s in JYs (and none with NP203s). I have seen tons of 2WD T18s and T98s in 2WD and divorced 4WD Ford pickups. The majority of the married four speed Ford 4X4s I've seen in JYs have had NP435s (no matter what TC they came with). The NP203 was most common with C4s and C6s. Four speed 78-80 Broncos sometimes came with T18s and NP205s and occaisionaly NP203s. So there's a possible source of this adapter.

I've seen a few early eighties Fords with T18/19s and NP208 or BW1345 TCs (mostly Diesels). That's still the correct pattern, as well as the 31 spline output. They're honkin' long though as stated earlier. The adapters I've seen on this vintage of Ford are aluminum too. They were made with the weight of an al/mag BW1345 or NP208 in mind. Hanging an iron NP203 range box plus an NP205 on the end of that long, skinny aluminum adapter would be asking for trouble, even with a good crossmember IME. :eek:

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 07:23 AM

Did some more measuring last night on a couple of T19 cases I have laying around. One is a 4WD case and the other is a 2WD case. The 4WD case, has a modified round pattern... the lower 4 holes are 3/8" on a 4.625" circle, but the top 2 holes are 1/2" and are on an even bigger circle. The 2WD case has a standard round pattern minus one of the holes. It is a 6 on 4.625" configuration, but the hole on the left side of the pattern has not been drilled. For some reason, the bearing retainer only used 5 bolts to hold it on. It would be simple to bolt the stock bearing retainer on upside down and use it as a guide to drill the remaining hole.

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 07:46 AM

larboc@hotmail.com

11-28-2006, 08:45 AM

I was under the impression that all ford t-cases could be interchanged. all 31 spline and all used the same 6 bolt np205 pattern as non-racetrack chevy 205?

And also I thought I had read that even the BW and 208's behind fords used the same bolt pattern and 31 spline setup. Guess not,

If only there was some kind of fluid coupling that would allow for infinitely variable torque conversion. :shaking:

tsm1mt

11-28-2006, 09:02 AM

I just realized that with all my extra T19 parts laying around, I could assemble a second T19 wide ratio using the 2WD mainshaft I have (that would be the one modified and resplined if possible). Then I would have a complete 4WD T19 wide & a Scout D300 (and all the upgrade goodies I have) to sell off and recoupe some $$$ offset the Doubler buildup.

From what I've read, the 2wd T19 case is a better choice anyhow - it's easier to redrill / do whatever for the various non-Texas t'case adapters.

I have a pair of 2wd T19s here (one wide, one close) to pick from.. along with a spare wide married, and two extra close marrieds.. but the wide in the Scout is succumbing to all of those "drives to church on Sunday".. syncros are shot, it pops out of 4th gear sometimes...

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 09:23 AM

From what I've read, the 2wd T19 case is a better choice anyhow - it's easier to redrill / do whatever for the various non-Texas t'case adapters.

I have a pair of 2wd T19s here (one wide, one close) to pick from.. along with a spare wide married, and two extra close marrieds.. but the wide in the Scout is succumbing to all of those "drives to church on Sunday".. syncros are shot, it pops out of 4th gear sometimes...
I read some tech somewhere (can't remember where now) that attributed the "popping out of gear" thing to worn, loose or sloppy shift linkage in the top cover and/or the pin in the pivot ball on the shifter. Synchros help match the speeds of the various gears without having to manually match engine rpm to drivetrain speed. The synchros don't really do much to hold the trans in gear.

My schedule is killing me... I want to get back out to that JY and grab the TH400/203 range box that I saw the other day, but it's dark now by the time I get off work. I'm going out of town this weekend, so hopefully, it's still there the following weekend. Even if it is, with my luck it will be 35° instead of the nice 65° weather we've been having here.

tsm1mt

11-28-2006, 10:02 AM

I read some tech somewhere (can't remember where now) that attributed the "popping out of gear" thing to worn, loose or sloppy shift linkage in the top cover and/or the pin in the pivot ball on the shifter. Synchros help match the speeds of the various gears without having to manually match engine rpm to drivetrain speed. The synchros don't really do much to hold the trans in gear.

Could be sloppy shift linkage - I hadn't considered that, I was thinking there was a thrust-bearing or something that caused it to jump out of gear - it's fine under power, but if I don't hold the shifter when compression braking and pulling off the Interstate, I'm in neutral before I finish the off-ramp.

The worn synchros just require me to double-clutch more often. I used to be pretty good at being lazy and shifting w/o the clutch, but haven't since I put the 36s on.

Even if it is, with my luck it will be 35° instead of the nice 65° weather we've been having here.

35 would be nice.. -9 this morning.

Michelle stayed home yesterday, and I took the car to work.

I got an email around noon.. "My Toyota won't start.. my Scout 800 won't start.. so you have to stop at the store on the way home. I have a field full of cars, and they won't start!"

"Did you try the injected '73 in the garage? Tigger? The Blue '74? Or the Chevy 1T yet?" :D

So last night Tigger got started and the self-airing-down TSLs aired back up, the Toy got started and moved within "plug-in" range..

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 11:38 AM

CabtopXLC

11-28-2006, 12:27 PM

Well, the shaft issue is taken care of, it's just going to cost a little money. I talked to the transmission shop on my lunch break and got the info I was looking for. They would take the T19 mainshaft and cut it off just a little bit past the rear bearing journal. They would then inertia weld the new 32-spline section onto the back of the T19 mainshaft. If the new splined section is longer than what is needed, they simply stick it in a chop saw, cut it to length and clean up the end of the splines. If I supply the shaft, I'd be looking at the $125 to $150 range to have the procedure done. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

A couple of years ago when I was looking at all this I bought a Ford shaft from Motive-Gear that was very long. The additional length was out the back. There was about a 6" section of smooth shaft before the splines on the end. My idea was to have the shaft cut to length and then splined the way I wanted it. This eliminates the weld and the shaft was only $100 from them. I did not use it, going with the AA adapter to Klune-V (David) to LoMax 205. I agree with the earlier comments of "whats the point of 1, 1.96, 2.01, and 4 to 1". The gearing option I have now are 1, 3, 4, and 12 to 1. Then pick your ring and pinion to either drive on street or be really sick off road.

Brett

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 12:44 PM

A couple of years ago when I was looking at all this I bought a Ford shaft from Motive-Gear that was very long. The additional length was out the back. There was about a 6" section of smooth shaft before the splines on the end. My idea was to have the shaft cut to length and then splined the way I wanted it. This eliminates the weld and the shaft was only $100 from them. I did not use it, going with the AA adapter to Klune-V (David) to LoMax 205. I agree with the earlier comments of "whats the point of 1, 1.96, 2.01, and 4 to 1". The gearing option I have now are 1, 3, 4, and 12 to 1. Then pick your ring and pinion to either drive on street or be really sick off road.

Brett
Still have that Ford shaft? How about a posting a pic?

What I'm after is a bone-crushingly strong 4:1. Having an intermediate range is a nice bonus and it is "unfortunate" that both the intermediate ranges are the same. But honestly, I personally could care less if I only have 3 ranges instead of 4.

I'm not concerned about the inertia weld... if you're not familiar with the process, it fuses the two shafts together from center all the way to the OD under extreme hydraulic pressure. It's nothing like running a bead around the shaft.

I am curious to see that Ford shaft, though.

A little investigation turns up that you probably talking about the Ford 19-1/4" 31-spline mainshaft. The IHC 10-spline shaft is only 14-5/8" long and the IHC 6-spline is 14-13/16" long. That means, like you stated above, there is ~4.5" of shaft beyond the bearing journal and before the splined section. That would be more than enough shaft length to cut down and respline for my purposes.

GOOD FIND!!!!!!

Now to compare the cost difference between resplining one of those shafts compared to the inertia weld option.

Creepy196

11-28-2006, 01:37 PM

I was under the impression that all ford t-cases could be interchanged. all 31 spline and all used the same 6 bolt np205 pattern as non-racetrack chevy 205?

Ford has used a few 'married' patterns over the years. The Early Bronco and F100 'married' D20 was its own pattern (and 28 spline shaft IIRC). Ford used 'divorced' NP205s until the mid- 70s. These mid-70s and early 80s Ford NP205s have the 'six bolt-round' pattern with the 31 spline input. I could be wrong as to how common the 'six bolt-round' 31 spline setup actualy was however...I'm not a FS-Ford expert by any means. :shaking:

These are just conclusions that I've drawn from my own observations. In my opinion, the bigger issue (regarding using Ford factory TC adapters) is that Ford seemed to have used a much greater percentage of NP435s than BW T18/T19 four speeds in 'married' applications. The BW trannys seem to have been used more often in 2WD (and 'divorced' 4WD) applications. Again, this is from my years of JY observations.

And also I thought I had read that even the BW and 208's behind fords used the same bolt pattern and 31 spline setup. Guess not.

You recall correctly. The BW1345/1354/13whatever and NP208 cases used by Ford usualy are the 'six bolt-round' pattern with a 31 spline shaft (at least in full size Fords). Some of the cases were an odball 'five bolt-round' pattern and used odd spline count shafts (25 and 27 spline IIRC). Most of these were used in Bronco IIs and other smaller '80s Ford 4X4s.

tsm1mt

11-28-2006, 01:48 PM

T19 Shafts (http://www.drivetrain.com/borgwarnerT18T19.html)

2 ALTT19-2A T19 Mainshaft 14 3/4" spline industrial

$141.18
2 ALTT19-2E T19 Mainshaft 16 3/4" 2wd Ford

$89.47
2 ALTT19-2F T19 Mainshaft 19 7/32" 4x4 Ford

$113.24
ALT1301-566-010 T19 Adapter Housing to any Ford Transfer Case

$190.58

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 02:04 PM

You know... the 16.75" shaft would probably be long enough to do what I want to do. To end up with the length I want, I'm probably only going to have about 1.5" of 32-spline shaft beyond the bearing journal. However, I did just call my truck parts guy and got a price of less than any of those listed above for the 19.25" shaft. :flipoff2:

tsm1mt

11-28-2006, 02:09 PM

A couple of years ago when I was looking at all this I bought a Ford shaft from Motive-Gear that was very long. The gearing option I have now are 1, 3, 4, and 12 to 1. Then pick your ring and pinion to either drive on street or be really sick off road.

Brett

FWIW, Cabtop's old post (http://ads.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=442730)

http://www.northtexasbinders.com/NormalPictures/2032.jpg
http://www.northtexasbinders.com/normalpictures/2030.jpg?259540

These pics show the NP205 shifter notch Ben was talking about..

ChiScouter

11-28-2006, 02:15 PM

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 02:44 PM

tsm1mt

11-28-2006, 02:47 PM

2 ALTT19-2F T19 Mainshaft 19 7/32" 4x4 Ford
$113.24

ALT1301-566-010 T19 Adapter Housing to any Ford Transfer Case
$190.58

So ~$300 (less if you know Mechanos' supplier) gets me everything I need to convert my IH T19 over to run a Ford NP203?

Another $1000 for the ORD kit ($800 + $200) and the NP205 I have..

But the OAL is a concern..

Another option would be the $300 T19 conversion coupled with a BW trans converted into a doubler unit for ~$400 and then run a 300 behind that (will the NP205 pass drop fit better behind one of the BW crawl-box units?)

Seems cheaper than the AA/Novak Jeep adapter setup, but I need to get a better idea what's included in the $500 kit that isn't in the $300 mainshaft and adapter.. the Jeep 300 setup might be a shorter adapter/shaft.

Binderman

11-28-2006, 03:20 PM

Ed Zachary. Im ready to ditch my stick and do like Sully.

IH 727 with Chrysler tail shaft housing (Waggy) to Jeep 300.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=271259&stc=1&d=1162833150

Mr. General. :D

What is the length of the jeep t/case adapter you posted?

Could ya take a quick measurement of the tranny to t/case adapter rear mounting surface.

Or does anyone here know the overall length of a IH 727, Jeep adapter, ORD 203/205 Doubler when all mated together?

I feel all that in a 100" wheel base its gonna be snug. Wonder how much a rear HP center section will help with the rear driveshaft lenght/angle??

Wonderful thead guys as I have been considering the doubler route since I bought my K30 donor truck for the axles. Doesnt hurt that it has the 400/205 combo also.:D

FWIW I did read just last night that the Ford 205's have the largest outputs avaliable in a 205. The other (anything other than ford) cases have to be bored to accept them though.:( There is also two TH400 t/case inputs, a early and a late and the ORD stuff IIRC only support the earlier short 32 spline inputs. May be bass akwards on this, will check tonight and verify.

tsm1mt

11-28-2006, 03:31 PM

Mechanos -have you seen this?

Midwest #s
T19-2 Ford Mainshaft 14.75 35spline (ball brg)
1309171006 Ford Mainsahft 14.75 35sp (tapered brg)
1309171010 Ford 16.75" 28sp
1309171007 Ford 19.25" 31sp

The Industrial shaft is 10sp 14.75 BTW

The IH shafts as you already noted are 14 5/8" 10sp, and 14 13/16 6sp

I don't have the dimensions on just what the 35splines on the 35sp 14.75 shaft are.

These should be tailhousing adapters -

1301566010 Adapter Assembly, SAE
1301566011 Adapter Assembly, Metric (???)

ChiScouter

11-28-2006, 03:36 PM

When I did my doubler I sent my 203 main shaft to moser. I actually sent them 2 so I would have a spare. IIRC it was around 150 for the 2 of them. No heat treating was necessary, I went to a dodge 29 spline, the major diameter was almost the same as the 203 mainshaft.

Binderman

11-28-2006, 03:59 PM

I think you're making the right decision to stay away from the 300 and 241 based setups. Spending $$$$$ on a 300 that may explode one day is insane. Plus I love having the peace of mind knowing that my 205 will never explode and even if it did I can get another one for $150 any day of the week.

Amen!! If ya build up a 4:1 300 and break a tooth, can ya get just the busted gear or are ya out another chunk of change for a complete gear set??

Whats "peace of mind" worth??

Thats my reasoning for the 203/205 doubler. Do it once and forget about it!!

slipscomb

11-28-2006, 06:53 PM

Wow! This thread grew overnight. I have done the Ford swap a few years ago using a Ford 4wd 31 spline output and simply having Wagonner Machine Shop in OK shorten and respline it for the shortest adapter I could have and to fit a factory Ford 205 since they already had the large bearings and input/output shafts. I redrilled the case for another breather and the original setup was only a few inches longer than my stock Dana 20. I made a custom adapter with the "Texas" style pattern on one end and the round Ford on the other. The round Ford pattern is quite easy to find and still plentiful at most salvages as they came in alot of vehicles for many years (including the fullsize Bronco in some years).

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb003.jpg

When I went to Rockwells I simply added the Ford 203 box (same bolt pattern and input) and made another adapter to go from the range box face again to the Ford round bolt pattern for my doubler setup.

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb023.jpg

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb022.jpg

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb026.jpg

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb035.thumb.jpg

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb036.jpg

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb038.jpg

It wasnt a difficult project and only cost the price of some 3/8 and 1/2 inch plate and some 6 inch round stock and a little machine work. The shaft splining cost about $60 per shaft back then and has never had any trouble since it was installed and that's with years of abuse from Rockwells and 44 inch tires. Let me know if you want to go that route and need more measurements I will be happy to get.

Sean

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 06:59 PM

Mechanos -have you seen this?

The Industrial shaft is 10sp 14.75 BTW

The IH shafts as you already noted are 14 5/8" 10sp, and 14 13/16 6sp

I don't have the dimensions on just what the 35splines on the 35sp 14.75 shaft are.

These should be tailhousing adapters -
Yeah, I used that same Midwest catalog to get the part number to give to my parts guy to get the price I posted above. :flipoff2: It's not a matter of knowing the supplier... it's matter of knowing the guy behind the counter.

In all of the searching I've done so far, all of the OEM parts combos just end up being too damn long for my tastes. I'm shooting for an adapter length of about 1" to 1.125". :smokin:

slipscomb

11-28-2006, 07:00 PM

I am currently working on an adapter with the "Texas" style bolt pattern to bolt to the back of the IH 727 using a coupler and bolt to a Ford 205 or 203 for doubler applications for my other truck. Will be delivering the plate steel to the cutter in the morning in fact. Work will slow however as I am changing addresses again. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted on this adapter.:smokin:

Sean

slipscomb

11-28-2006, 07:04 PM

In all of the searching I've done so far, all of the OEM parts combos just end up being too damn long for my tastes. I'm shooting for an adapter length of about 1" to 1.125". :smokin:

I believe my adapter is an estimated 3 inches long but definitely no longer and that was just to be able to get the bolts in on both sides.

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 07:17 PM

I believe my adapter is an estimated 3 inches long but definitely no longer and that was just to be able to get the bolts in on both sides.
OMG!!:eek: That's THREE times as long!! :laughing: :flipoff2:

Ben W

11-28-2006, 07:22 PM

(will the NP205 pass drop fit better behind one of the BW crawl-box units?)

Probably not. Look at the attached picture. It is a JB conversions 205 case, but it illustrates the problem perfectly. The shift rail is partially inside the OD of the round pattern, so any crawl-box you bolt it up to is going to interfere with the the shift rail. The fix is a thicker crawl box adapter that is notched for the rail, similar to the many 203/205 doublers.

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 10:13 PM

Well, shit.... I don't know if I'm going to be able to make an adpater as short as I first thought. The 203's kind of sticks up inside the TH400 a little bit. That isn't possible on the T19 due to it's output bearing. I've got a couple PM's out to try to get a measurement on just how far the 203's input gear/shaft sticks out from the front of the case.

EDIT: Well, thanks goes out to Reuben for a speedy response to my PM. With the measurement he gave me, it looks like the shortest adapter will be something like 2.25" or 2.375". Shit...

MochaMike

11-28-2006, 10:58 PM

Could the rear be drilled out so that the shaft is moved from the back?

Mechanos

11-28-2006, 11:03 PM

Could the rear be drilled out so that the shaft is moved from the back?
:confused: :confused: :confused:
I don't understand what you mean.....

MochaMike

11-28-2006, 11:21 PM

472Scout

11-29-2006, 01:02 AM

OK, I'm talking about the shaft/shift rail which is having clearance issues because it would hit a range box.

Could a hole be drilled in the rear of the case near the rear yoke, install a different shift rail, which would be moved from the rear?

It's been done before.

edit: I don't see a need for a different shift rail though. Just weld on an extension.

472Scout

11-29-2006, 04:29 AM

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 06:34 AM

OK, I'm talking about the shaft/shift rail which is having clearance issues because it would hit a range box.

Could a hole be drilled in the rear of the case near the rear yoke, install a different shift rail, which would be moved from the rear?
Oh.. you're talking about the 203 to 205 adapter. I'm with you now. You threw that comment in the middle of me pissing and moaning about a the T19 to 203 adapter and I had no clue what you were talking about. :flipoff2:

Ben W

11-29-2006, 09:26 AM

Could the rear be drilled out so that the shaft is moved from the back?

You would need to figure out how to seal around the rail through the new hole you drill. You would still have the rail sticking out the front, you can't cut if off flush, because that end of the rail still needs to be supported and sealed. From this picture, it looks like you could cut maybe 3/4" off the front of the rail, which still leaves a lot of rail sticking out when it is all the way forward, I'm guessing at least 1 1/2".

larboc@hotmail.com

11-29-2006, 09:34 AM

Ben W

11-29-2006, 09:42 AM

This may be a stupid question, but by any chance, Is the 32 spline rear output of the ford 205 the same spline as the 32 spline chevy input?

Yes, they are the same spline.

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 09:56 AM

I guess I should have titled this thread "Doubler Tech", since at least half of the thread is info about mating the two t-cases together. :flipoff2:

Back to the original topic... mating the T19 to the 203. I talked to another machine shop today and got a ball park of $175 to shorten and respline a T19 shaft. Now add to that the cost of a new shaft and it's pushing $260. The inertia welding idea is still less expensive. Now if I came across a free/cheap mainshaft somewhere, the resplining idea become more feasible..... this is, if it can be done like I want it. In order to make the mainshaft as short as possible, the shaft needs to be resplined just aft of the rear output bearing journal. The journal is a larger diameter than the major diameter of the splined section. I'm not sure how close the splines can be cut to that shoulder... they might have to start the splines away from the shoulder for the cutter to clear the journal.

It's sounding more and more like the best route for me to take is the inertia welding route. I don't have to buy or locate another mainshaft as I have a 10-spline shaft already. The 32-spline stub can be welded on immediately aft of the output bearing journal which will result in the shortest possible shaft stickout and ulitmately, the shortest T19 to 203 adapter.

Harvester of Sorrow

11-29-2006, 10:06 AM

Subscribing to this thread...

I have been debating on what to do for gearing...in the near future (1 - 2 years)...

With my motor and going to larger tires, combined with adding a traction/anti-wrap bar, the Dana20 output is going to last about...well not very long.

I can't see spending the cash on a STAK, ATLAS, or beefed 300...

I would rather use "factory" heavy components for the doubler...I have been leaning towards this idea more and more...I have CNC's available for plate and tube adapter work...

Thank you for this thread...:)

Ben W

11-29-2006, 10:07 AM

I guess I should have titled this thread "Doubler Tech", since at least half of the thread is info about mating the two t-cases together. :flipoff2:

I can split it into 2 threads if you want...

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 10:26 AM

I can split it into 2 threads if you want...
Probably not necessary... while they are different subjects, they are related and it's possible that info gleened from one could help with the other.

CabtopXLC

11-29-2006, 10:34 AM

nooblet

11-29-2006, 11:27 AM

I can split it into 2 threads if you want...

I think this thread is bad ass as it is. I've learned so much from reading this thing I think my head is going to explode some times. Best tech thread that has been in the scout forum since that kid wanted to know whether he should use blocks or lift shackles :flipoff2:

Seriously though this thread kicks ass.

Chris

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 12:11 PM

As requested, here is the photo comparing the longer Ford shaft to the stock 2WD IH T-19 shaft.

Mechanos - if you want the Ford shaft PM me your address and I'll just ship it to you. It's not doing me any good.

Brett

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=274888&stc=1&d=1164821322

Two things concern me with that shaft:

The shoulder near the front end of the Ford shaft that is not present on the IHC shaft. I wonder if the IHC internals would be a direct swap to that shaft or if some of the Ford internals would have to be used.
The Ford shaft necks down to the minor diameter of the splines between the output bearing journal and the splines. This section appears to be smaller than the required major diameter of the 32-spline configuration I need. Notice that the IHC shaft does not neck down beyond the splined portion.

For the hell of it, can you measure that necked down portion of the shaft to see what diameter it is? That shaft looks like it would work if resplining to 27 or 23 spline, but it doesn't look like there's enough meat to respline it to 32 spline. Thanks for the pic.

slipscomb

11-29-2006, 03:37 PM

slipscomb, is that a flipped ford 205? doesn't look like I remember my chev 205 looking.
.

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb036.jpg
Yup. It's an inverted Ford 205.

larboc@hotmail.com

11-29-2006, 03:51 PM

ok, so I'm wondering why a person can't just take 2 np205s and just make their own adapter? too long?
in my case,
C6-FordNP205(Cut up)-FordNP205(with 32spline short chevy input)

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 04:41 PM

ok, so I'm wondering why a person can't just take 2 np205s and just make their own adapter? too long?
in my case,
C6-FordNP205(Cut up)-FordNP205(with 32spline short chevy input)
I don't see any reason why you couldn't. I assume you're talking about cutting the front output portion of the front case off and plating it so you're just using the reduction gears. You'd probably have to clock the front case one way or the other to make sure you don't have front drive shaft clearance problems.

You'd also have to swap the rear 205's 31-spline input with a short 32-spline from a GM 205 as you mentioned. When you get rid of the front 205's rear output housing, you loose the rear output bearing, so your adapter would have to incorporate a bearing. It would be a lot longer and seems to me like a lot more work than just using a 203 range box.

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 05:01 PM

http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb036.jpg
Yup. It's an inverted Ford 205.
Slip... what's up with the skinnied down front driveshaft? Did you have some clearance issues with a cross member or something?

slipscomb

11-29-2006, 05:06 PM

Slip... what's up with the skinnied down front driveshaft? Did you have some clearance issues with a cross member or something?

Yup, my upper control arm mount is on the inside of the frame and leaves little room. I measured my T-19/Ford 203 adapter and it measures 2.5 inches using .5 inch plate on each end and 6 inch round stock in the middle.

Sean

BLK Scout 800

11-29-2006, 05:10 PM

Wow this thread has taken off :eek:

Two questions tho.....

1. How much is this kind of setup going to weigh?

2. Is your D300 stuff for sale Mechanos?

Great tech guys this is killer :smokin:

Ben W

11-29-2006, 05:15 PM

Wow this thread has taken off :eek:

Two questions tho.....

1. How much is this kind of setup going to weigh?

2. Is your D300 stuff for sale Mechanos?

Great tech guys this is killer :smokin:

Typical 203/205 doubler setup weighs 240#s.
http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler%20quick%20facts.htm

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 05:16 PM

Wow this thread has taken off :eek:

Two questions tho.....

1. How much is this kind of setup going to weigh?

2. Is your D300 stuff for sale Mechanos?

Great tech guys this is killer :smokin:

About 1.5 metric shit-tons :flipoff2:
Not currently, but if I can come up with a 203/205 setup to my liking... it will be. PM me for more details.

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 05:20 PM

Yup, my upper control arm mount is on the inside of the frame and leaves little room. I measured my T-19/Ford 203 adapter and it measures 2.5 inches using .5 inch plate on each end and 6 inch round stock in the middle.

Sean
Now is that 2.5" with or without the thickness of the OEM "Texas" adapter? From the pics, I'm guessing without. How thick is that "Texas" adapter... about an inch?

slipscomb

11-29-2006, 06:38 PM

Now is that 2.5" with or without the thickness of the OEM "Texas" adapter? From the pics, I'm guessing without. How thick is that "Texas" adapter... about an inch?

The "Texas" adapter is part of the front adapter. That just refers to the bolt pattern on the back of the T-19. The adapter has one plate (.5") with the matching bolt pattern of the back of the T-19 and is connected to another plate (.5") with the round Ford pattern with the 6" round stock. All is welded together after cases are clocked appropriately. I had a notch machined into each plate to help center the two patterns and the center of the round stock was machined to retain the seal housings in each case.

Sean

Mechanos

11-29-2006, 08:16 PM

The "Texas" adapter is part of the front adapter. That just refers to the bolt pattern on the back of the T-19. The adapter has one plate (.5") with the matching bolt pattern of the back of the T-19 and is connected to another plate (.5") with the round Ford pattern with the 6" round stock. All is welded together after cases are clocked appropriately. I had a notch machined into each plate to help center the two patterns and the center of the round stock was machined to retain the seal housings in each case.

Sean
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your pics, it looks like I see the stock IH bearing retainer/t-case adapter, then a .5" plate, the 6" round stock, then the other .5" plate.
http://members.cox.net/jtolly/images/slipscomb/images/slipscomb036.jpg

Even if I'm wrong with what I think I see, you have given me another :idea:. Maybe I can reuse the OEM T19 to t-case "texas" pattern bearing retainer/adapter and utilize it to capture and retain the T19 output bearing and hold the T19 rear seal. I would have to try to find the correct seal that would fit both the existing seal bore and have that seal ride on the OD of the 203's female input gear stub that sticks out of the front of the Chevy 203.

If all that works, then the new adapter that I have to fab would simply consist of a plate to bolt to the Texas pattern adapter, a plate to bolt to the face of the 203 and a very short piece of say 6" x 0.250 wall tube as a spacer between the two plates. That would completely eliminate the need for any "special" machining. The plates would just need to be cut out, the bolt holes drilled and the pieces welded together. Shit, dude, if that works, it would be the ultimate in simplicity!! :smokin: It almost makes me want to go out in the driveway and pull my t-case and adapter to do some checking.

Monkeyplasm

11-29-2006, 10:35 PM

Look at the 'extension' of the ford shaft...it won't support 1 3/8" 32 splines - the diameter is too small. Looked into this years ago and flipped off BW for pussing out on the ford t-19 shaft diameter.

Of course you could intertia weld (wouldn't need the ford shaft EXCEPT that it has a groove to hold itself in place with a snap ring - you lose the threaded nut of the bullgear design, folks) or even build up with spray welding then turn to diameter/spline/heat-treat.

As requested, here is the photo comparing the longer Ford shaft to the stock 2WD IH T-19 shaft.

Mechanos - if you want the Ford shaft PM me your address and I'll just ship it to you. It's not doing me any good.

Brett

Monkeyplasm

11-29-2006, 10:38 PM

This may be a stupid question, but by any chance, Is the 32 spline rear output of the ford 205 the same spline as the 32 spline chevy input?

slipscomb, is that a flipped ford 205? doesn't look like I remember my chev 205 looking.

I'm looking to do a 203-205 or 205-205 doubler behind the c6 going in the scout. is going to have to be left hand drop to match the HP60 so I am looking at doing the same thing. Makeing my own adapter, and then going into the shop here at M-tech after hours and broaching me an adapter or two :) . Or, if I could just make a 31-spline output for a 203 so it would go right on the 205 I think it would be a pretty nice fit. I would like to see how the shifter rail flip goes.

205 ford (drivers drop) to 205 chevy/dodge has been done and yes, the 32 spline inputs/outputs match up nicely for a 205-205 doubler...you can use a th-400 slip yoke (with yoke cut off) for a coupler if using a 32 spline male input on the 2nd case instead of a 32-spline female input.

I've still got these cases in my pile of burned up garage and truck parts.

Creepy196

11-30-2006, 03:15 AM

Ive got a 2wd ford 4 speed in my garage in chitown, not sure it its a 435 or BW. I was just holding on to it to use as a core for return at the boneyard. If it would help let me know and ill dig it out for the weekend if I have a chance

Oh and I am 99% positive that all married ford 205's have the same round mounting pattern fwiw

After doing some more research and reading the many accurate tech-filled posts in this thread I think you're right about the married Ford NP205s all having the six bolt-round pattern and the 31 spline female input.

BTW-You can easily tell if your Ford 4-speed is an NP435 (as opposed to a BW box) by looking at the top cover. If the top cover is aluminum then it's an NP435 (The BW's top covers are iron with a big stamped steel 'nut' retaining the shifter stick). There should be a 'gear' image with 'NP' cast into the aluminum top cover.

If it's a Ford light truck BW four speed then it could be a T18, T19, or T98. A T19 will have a synchronized first gear (unlike the T18 and T98). The first/reverse slider will not have straight cut teeth on its circumference (both the T18 and T98 do have these teeth). If it's a Ford T19 then it could have a 4.02/1 (like a close ratio Scout box) , 5.11/1 (most common with Fords IME), or 6.32/1(like a W/R Scout box, though rare with Fords IME) gear set. Something to check before getting too involved with the tranny.

A Ford T18 (all with 6.32/1 first) will have 40 teeth on the first/reverse slider, while a T98 (6.43/1 first) will have 43. For comparison, a 4.02/1 Scout (or Jeep) T18 has 38 teeth on the F/R slider. You need to know whether you have a T18 or a T98 when ordering rebuild parts as the T98 has a slightly different bearing setup. Also, later (1980ish) Ford and Jeep T18s have a diferent case with a T19 style top cover and reverse fork setup. This gives these T18s (still with an unsyncronized first gear) a reverse shifting pattern that's the same as a T19. This can be confusing as the usual 'Scout' method of distinguishing a T18 from a T19 (without driving it to check for a first gear synchro) doesn't work, as both a T19 and a late Ford/Jeep T18 have reverse in the right-and-back location!

snoop dogg

11-30-2006, 05:37 AM

its a flipped ford 205

Mechanos

11-30-2006, 09:03 AM

...ford shaft...has a groove to hold itself in place with a snap ring...
This is a valid point worth considering.

...you can use a th-400 slip yoke (with yoke cut off) for a coupler if using a 32 spline male input on the 2nd case instead of a 32-spline female input.
I didn't know 205's were ever offered with a 32-spline male input.

Ben W

11-30-2006, 10:08 AM

This is a valid point worth considering.

I didn't know 205's were ever offered with a 32-spline male input.

I believe the 32-spline male input is in divorced 205s.

larboc@hotmail.com

11-30-2006, 10:36 AM

O shit! If that is true I know where there is one out of an old 1-ton scout truck for cheap! It's non slip yoke. will the 2wd th400 slip yoke do the job?
This thread may inspire me to actully do a doubler on this project. badass.

Monkeyplasm

11-30-2006, 11:50 AM

I'll send some pics of the 205-205 doubler to someone who can post them here....anyone able to do this for me (us all)...bueller, bueller...

larboc@hotmail.com

11-30-2006, 11:57 AM

I kan. pwdice@mtu.edu

tsm1mt

11-30-2006, 12:36 PM

The 10sp output on the T19 2wd shafts... how does it compare to the 10spline NP205?

Would it be a simple job to build an adapter to turn a 2wd T19 into a married NP205 configuration?

Monkeyplasm

11-30-2006, 04:46 PM

NP 205 tech crap...

International Harvester
Divorce mount (Pickup and Travelall)
Passenger (RH) Drop
Inputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Front Outputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Rear Outputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Mount Pattern
None/Independent Crossmember
Driver (RH) Drop
No Such Thing
Married Mount
No Such Thing
Ford
Divorce Mount (Typically F250 or larger trucks)
Passenger (RH) Drop
No Such Thing
Driver (LH) Drop
Inputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Front Outputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Rear Outputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Mount Pattern
None/Independent Crossmember
Married Mount (Typically F150 and Bronco)
Passenger (RH) Drop
No Such Thing
Driver (LH) Drop
Inputs:
31 Spline Female Slip
Front Outputs:
32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Rear Outputs:
32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Mount Pattern
6 bolt round pattern
Dodge
Divorce Mount (Unknown)
Passenger (RH) Drop
Inputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Front Outputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Rear Outputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Mount Pattern
None/Independent Crossmember
Driver (LH) Drop
No Such Thing
Married Mount (Unknown)
Passenger (RH) Drop
Inputs:
29 Spline Male Coupler (1.5" diamater)
23 Spline Male Coupler (Dana 300 shaft diameter)
Front Outputs:
32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Rear Outputs:
32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Mount Pattern
6 bolt round pattern
Driver (LH) Drop
No Such Thing
Chevy
Divorce Mount (Unknown)
Passenger (RH) Drop
Inputs:
32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
Front Outputs:
Unknown
Rear Outputs:
32 Spline Male (fixed-yoke = short, or slip-yoke = long)
Mount Pattern
None/Independent Crossmember
Driver (LH) Drop
No Such Thing
Married Mount (Unknown)
Passenger (RH) Drop
Inputs:
10 Spline Male Coupler
27 Spline Male Coupler
32 Spline Female Slip, Long style
32 Spline Female Slip, Short style
Front Outputs:
10 Spline Yoke
30 Spline Flange
Rear Outputs:
32 Spline Male (fixed-yoke = short, or slip-yoke = long)
Mount Pattern
6 bolt round pattern
Driver (LH) Drop
No Such Thing

Inputs:
Small Input Bearing Diameter
10 Spline Male
23 Spline Male
27 Spline Male
32 Spline Male
Large Input Bearing Diameter
29 Spline Male
32 Spline Female, Long style
32 Spline Female, Short style

Monkeyplasm

11-30-2006, 04:51 PM

NP 205 tech crap...now with formatting!! (an an omission fixed)

International Harvester
.....Divorce mount (Pickup and Travelall)
..........Passenger (RH) Drop
...............Inputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Front Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Rear Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Mount Pattern
....................None/Independent Crossmember
..........Driver (RH) Drop
...............No Such Thing
.....Married Mount
..........No Such Thing
Ford
.....Divorce Mount (Typically F250 or larger trucks)
..........Passenger (RH) Drop
...............No Such Thing
..........Driver (LH) Drop
...............Inputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Front Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Rear Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Mount Pattern
....................None/Independent Crossmember
.....Married Mount (Typically F150 and Bronco)
..........Passenger (RH) Drop
.....No Such Thing
..........Driver (LH) Drop
...............Inputs:
....................31 Spline Female Slip
...............Front Outputs:
....................32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Rear Outputs:
....................32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Mount Pattern
....................6 bolt round pattern
Dodge
.....Divorce Mount (Unknown)
..........Passenger (RH) Drop
...............Inputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Front Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Rear Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Mount Pattern
....................None/Independent Crossmember
..........Driver (LH) Drop
...............No Such Thing
.....Married Mount (Unknown)
..........Passenger (RH) Drop
...............Inputs:
....................29 Spline Male Coupler (1.5" diamater)
....................23 Spline Male Coupler (Dana 300 shaft diameter)
...............Front Outputs:
....................32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Rear Outputs:
....................32 Spline Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Mount Pattern
....................6 bolt round pattern
..........Driver (LH) Drop
...............No Such Thing
Chevy
.....Divorce Mount (Unknown)
..........Passenger (RH) Drop
...............Inputs:
....................32 Spline Male Yoke (fixed, non-slip)
...............Front Outputs:
....................Unknown
...............Rear Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male (fixed-yoke = short, or slip-yoke = long)
...............Mount Pattern
....................None/Independent Crossmember
..........Driver (LH) Drop
...............No Such Thing
.....Married Mount (Unknown)
..........Passenger (RH) Drop
...............Inputs:
....................10 Spline Male Coupler
....................27 Spline Male Coupler
....................32 Spline Female Slip, Long style
....................32 Spline Female Slip, Short style
...............Front Outputs:
....................10 Spline Yoke
....................30 Spline Flange
...............Rear Outputs:
....................32 Spline Male (fixed-yoke = short, or slip-yoke = long)
...............Mount Pattern
....................6 bolt round pattern
....................8 bolt racetrack pattern
..........Driver (LH) Drop
...............No Such Thing

Inputs:
.....Small Input Bearing Diameter
..........10 Spline Male
..........23 Spline Male
..........27 Spline Male
..........32 Spline Male
.....Large Input Bearing Diameter
..........29 Spline Male
..........32 Spline Female, Long style
..........32 Spline Female, Short style

Mechanos

11-30-2006, 04:59 PM

Monkeyplasm

11-30-2006, 05:10 PM

One problem with the Scout T-19 is that the output shaft is held in proper position by either a fixed-yoke/nut or a bull-gear/nut. If you eliminate these to get a splined shaft to stuff into a T-case....how are you going to keep the output shaft from walking in the transmission? You'll need to (hopefully) cut a snap ring groove (1) in the right place, and (2) without weakening the output shaft by cutting a square bottomed groove <stress risers>.

Mechanos

11-30-2006, 05:38 PM

Yeah, you brought this up a few posts up in this thread. I agree with what you're saying. Cutting a lock ring groove in the IH T19 shaft would be a bad idea. It would be the weakest point in the shaft. If you look at the side by side pic of the IH and Ford shafts, you can see the only place to cut the groove on the IH shaft is on the portion after it necks down from the bearing journal diameter. The Ford shaft, like you said, already has the groove cut in it. The Ford shaft maintains the bearing journal diameter, has a lock ring groove, and then necks down after the groove.

The Ford shaft (or one of them, anyway) that does not terminate in a fixed yoke or bull gear is definately the way to go. This coupled with fact that the Ford shaft necks down too much to support a 1.375" x 32-spline shaft also means that the inertia welding process is the way to go.

Thanks for pointing this out.:smokin:

slipscomb

11-30-2006, 07:27 PM

slipscomb

11-30-2006, 07:30 PM

the Ford shaft necks down too much to support a 1.375" x 32-spline shaft also means that the inertia welding process is the way to go.

Thanks for pointing this out.:smokin:

Why not use the 31 spline Ford input. You can respline the Ford T-19 shaft to its original 31 spline to fit in the Ford t-case.

Mechanos

11-30-2006, 08:44 PM

The bolt on yoke on the IH T-19 does not hold the shaft in place. It rides in a bearing against the input shaft of the tranny and the output bearing. I have this exact same setup in my IH T-19 and didnt have to do anything but swap the cluster gears over

Sean
I believe Monkey to be right on this one. On my 4WD T19, the bull gear sandwiches a spacer between itself and the output bearing. The output bearing is retained by the adapter which then locks everything in place. On my 2WD T19, the yoke sandwiches the speedo drive gear between itself and the output bearing. Again the bearing retainer holds the bearing in place and in both setups, the mainshaft is locked into postion and cannot walk forward or rearward.

On the Ford shaft, the lock ring keeps the shaft from walking in the bearing and the bearing is again retained by the adapter or bearing retainer.

Why not use the 31 spline Ford input. You can respline the Ford T-19 shaft to its original 31 spline to fit in the Ford t-case.
I don't think you can. Look at the side by side pic:
The Ford shaft necks down past the splines. If you cut it down the portion you would need to respline is a smaller diameter than the original splines.

Oh, and the other reason is because the 203 I've located is a 32-spline input so that's what I'm trying to adapt to.

tsm1mt

11-30-2006, 10:50 PM

Oh, and the other reason is because the 203 I've located is a 32-spline input so that's what I'm trying to adapt to.

*If* it's still there when you go back.. sell it and buy a Ford 203 AND the shaft and pocket the change.

reuben

11-30-2006, 11:11 PM

203's are a dime a dozen, go for the easiest install.

slipscomb

12-01-2006, 05:36 AM

I believe Monkey to be right on this one. On my 4WD T19, the bull gear sandwiches a spacer between itself and the output bearing. The output bearing is retained by the adapter which then locks everything in place. On my 2WD T19, the yoke sandwiches the speedo drive gear between itself and the output bearing. Again the bearing retainer holds the bearing in place and in both setups, the mainshaft is locked into postion and cannot walk forward or rearward.

On the Ford shaft, the lock ring keeps the shaft from walking in the bearing and the bearing is again retained by the adapter or bearing retainer.

I don't think you can. Look at the side by side pic:
The Ford shaft necks down past the splines. If you cut it down the portion you would need to respline is a smaller diameter than the original splines.

Oh, and the other reason is because the 203 I've located is a 32-spline input so that's what I'm trying to adapt to.

You CAN do it. I did it 6 years ago and have been running it with no problems. No special snap rings, just shorten and respline to the original Ford 31 spline and make an adapter. DONE! Not sure about that shaft pictured above, however. Mine wasnt didnt seem to be necked down quite that much. It may depend on years or application on the tranny. Dont know.

Sean

larboc@hotmail.com

12-01-2006, 08:46 AM

Dammit, I meant 1-ton IH truck, I'm retarded, once agian.

From Monkeyplasm;

Example of 205 32-spline output grooved for snap rings (2 snap rings) - this
was just a modification of the 'groove' that was already behind the splines.
The simple adapter bolts to a modified TH350-np205 adapter. Note the
threaded nub is cut off because this splined shaft will meet it's
counterpart inside a coupler (saves space inside the coupler).
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/larboc/P00016541x1.jpg

Example of 205 32-spline input with snap rings and coupler made from a th400
slip yoke
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/larboc/T_2_T_06.jpg

Example of the coupler made from a 32 spline th400 slip yoke.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/larboc/T_2_T_05.jpg

From left to right: rear 205 - th350 adapter (modified) - 1" adapter -
front 205 output housing. Note that if I had a 32 spline FEMALE input
available at the time...I could have eliminated the TH350 adapter and bolted
the silver adapter directly to the front face of the rear 205 case...the
output shaft from the front case would slip directly into the female input
-->overall shorter dual case setup. Obviously the adapter would be shaped a
little different, but not any big deal. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/larboc/T_2_T_08.jpg

CabtopXLC

12-01-2006, 11:45 AM

I believe Monkey to be right on this one. On my 4WD T19, the bull gear sandwiches a spacer between itself and the output bearing. The output bearing is retained by the adapter which then locks everything in place. On my 2WD T19, the yoke sandwiches the speedo drive gear between itself and the output bearing. Again the bearing retainer holds the bearing in place and in both setups, the mainshaft is locked into postion and cannot walk forward or rearward.

On the Ford shaft, the lock ring keeps the shaft from walking in the bearing and the bearing is again retained by the adapter or bearing retainer.

I don't think you can. Look at the side by side pic:
The Ford shaft necks down past the splines. If you cut it down the portion you would need to respline is a smaller diameter than the original splines.

Oh, and the other reason is because the 203 I've located is a 32-spline input so that's what I'm trying to adapt to.

I sent you the shaft today. You will have to measure it, but I was thinking that the smooth section was still the same diameter as the major diameter of the splines. I know the picture doesn't look like it, but measuring will tell for sure.

Brett

Mechanos

12-01-2006, 09:20 PM

I sent you the shaft today...

Brett
:smokin: :smokin: :cool2:

Mechanos

12-01-2006, 09:23 PM

*If* it's still there when you go back.. sell it and buy a Ford 203 AND the shaft and pocket the change.
I don't really see what that would gain me. Using the OEM Ford shaft and adatper would be way long than what I want. If I cut down the Ford shaft, resplined the shaft and built a custom short adapter.... I end up in the same place. What's the difference between resplining and build a custom short Ford adapter or resplining and building a custom short Chevy adatper?

reuben

12-01-2006, 10:08 PM

one would be a ford and the other would be a chevy, seems obvious to me.:flipoff2:

Mechanos

12-02-2006, 06:26 AM

one would be a ford and the other would be a chevy, seems obvious to me.:flipoff2:
:doh:

Mechanos

12-02-2006, 09:08 PM

misterfubar

12-02-2006, 09:18 PM

I told you that wasn't a horse... It was donkey.

Trust me, I know a donkey when I see one.

MochaMike

12-02-2006, 10:29 PM

then pratically ran off the road by trombone toting lad who was trying to catch up to his buddy with the tuba.

I just spewed beer all over my keyboard.

Creepy196

12-03-2006, 11:35 AM

Well, I'm in Chicago (well actually Indiana) with MisterFubar visiting with Chiscouter. Got detoured by the cops coming into town, then pratically ran off the road by trombone toting lad who was trying to catch up to his buddy with the tuba. All this so some horses wearing Christmas light suits could walk down the street. So, Chi, what do you guys do around here for entertainment?!?!?! :flipoff2:

We're going t-case hunting in the morning (appearantly it's open season in these here parts). Supposed to be a whopping 22° tomorrow. If all goes well, Fubar and I will be heading back to KC tomorrow with ~2000lbs of goodies in the bed of the truck.

Holy Crap. Junkyard hunting in those parts would be an adventure. Wear gloves or you'll stick to your tools!!! :flipoff2:

Last time I was back in New Hampshire (Christmas 2003) visiting family I noticed scores of old 4X4 K30 plow trucks rusting away. I remember thinking that one of the challenges of pulling the D60s from those rigs would be breaking the wheels loose from the frozen snow!

And to think I was bitching about working on my junk when it got down to 29 degrees the other night...What a wussy! :crybaby:

MochaMike

12-03-2006, 12:19 PM

Last time I was back in New Hampshire (Christmas 2003) visiting family I noticed scores of old 4X4 K30 plow trucks rusting away. I remember thinking that one of the challenges of pulling the D60s from those rigs would be breaking the wheels loose from the frozen snow!

LOL....

My Uncle had an early 80s F350 4x4 in upstate NY.
The body was shot & after being told by their mechanic that the frame was rusted through they told him to keep it....

I just about shiat my pants.

Mechanos

12-04-2006, 01:20 AM

I just spewed beer all over my keyboard.
You should have been there!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Mechanos

12-04-2006, 01:15 PM

And now back to the tech....

Does anyone know if the long 32-spline female input can be cut down to the size of the short 32-spline female input?

Mechanos

12-04-2006, 05:44 PM

I think I may have lost sight of the forest through all the trees. Instead of trying to modify the 205's 32-spline long input (or buying a 32-spline short input) I just thought of another possiblity. Since I have a complete Ford 205, I'm thinking I could just put the Ford's input gear into the GM round pattern case. Then get the Doubler kit with the correct shaft to fit the Ford 205's input and get the adapter made with a mirror image of the round pattern to bolt up to the GM round pattern 205 instead of a Ford 205. I'll have to check with ORD to see if the Ford input can be put in the GM 205 and if I can get the adapter in that configuration. If I can, then I already have all the parts I need to complete the Doubler... I just need to solve my T19 to 203 issue and I'm good to go.

Or I could try to sell the GM 205 round pattern case and buy a GM 205 racetrack pattern case with the correct input.

reuben

12-04-2006, 06:10 PM

Mechanos

12-05-2006, 10:32 AM

I just talked with ORD and they can indeed set me up with a GM 203 to GM round 205 (clocked 2" up). They can just supply me with a 31-spline adapter shaft instead of the 32-spline so I can use my Ford input gear if I want. I also learned something new... I guess some of the later 205 equipped Chevies had auto-locking D60F hubs. Truck with these hubs have a synchronized front output shaft on the 205. If you have one of these synchro'd front output 205's, you can't simply swap front output shafts to get the 32-spline output. Pretty much everything on the front output is different, including the shift fork. To get the 32-spline front output, you have to swap over pretty much the whole front output assembly from a donor case.

Monkeyplasm

12-05-2006, 03:01 PM

Still an easy swap with the case on the workbench...and worthwhile, too...the 'synchronized' 205s were really poorly done (synchronized was more wishful thinking than reality). You'll never know the dirrerence by using the 31 spline input.

Mechanos

12-05-2006, 07:57 PM

When I was talking to ORD, they told me that it's easily doable, kinda goofey, but doable. Went on to say that really the only thing wrong with it is that it's kinda goofey. The difference in strength between the 32-spline shaft and the slightly smaller 31-spline shaft is more than likely in the low single-digit percentages.

I can't see spending $200 on a 32-spline input gear when I have a 31-spline input laying around from the Ford case that's donating it's front output shaft (and/or the entire front output assembly).

I'm axiously awaiting the shaft that Cabtop sent me so I can start working on the T19 to 203 adapter.

472Scout

12-05-2006, 08:39 PM

I'm running a GM 32 spline input in my Ford 205. It's an easy swap as stated.

http://www.okcnetworks.com/bronco/205/np1.htm

I'm about 95% sure you could just cut down the long input shaft also. I was considering doing that myself but decided I would be money ahead by selling the long input 205 complete and buying a new 32spline short shaft. It was only like $125 shipped.

BTW: Does your long input 205 have a speed sensor on the output housing?

Mechanos

12-05-2006, 08:57 PM

...BTW: Does your long input 205 have a speed sensor on the output housing?
I'll have to look but I don't think so. I don't remember unhooking any wires back there.... I just remember clipping the wires to the "front axle engaged" switch and cutting the speedo cable. But then again, there were 3 of us there working on it.

When I get the damn heavy bastards out of the bed of my truck and into the garage, I'm going to measure the depth of the splines in the Ford input and compare to the depth of the splines in the 32-sline long input. If it's possible, I may just cut the 32-spline input down.... if I can talk my buddy with the lathe into doing it.

Mechanos

12-06-2006, 08:29 AM

So who are all the major players in the 203/205 doubler game?

I'm leaning heavily towards ORD but want to at least take a look at what else is out there and how they compare.

I know of these so far:

Offroad Design (ORD)
ATOR
Stazworks
Northwest Fab
Sumner Machine Works
High-Impact

EDIT: List updated
So, who's missing from the list? Also, I would like to hear comments about the features and pros/cons of the different adapters.

larboc@hotmail.com

12-06-2006, 09:10 AM

high-impact seems to know whats going on. http://high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/doubler.htm
good tech reference if nothing else.

MochaMike

12-06-2006, 09:33 AM

Jed's Machine (he makes them for Stazworks).

Ben W

12-06-2006, 09:35 AM

So who are all the major players in the 203/205 doubler game?

I'm leaning heavily towards ORD but want to at least take a look at what else is out there and how they compare.

I know of these so far:

Offroad Design (ORD)
ATOR
Stazworks

So, who's missing from the list? Also, I would like to hear comments about the features and pros/cons of the different adapters.

Check out Northwest Fab too. Theirs is the only one I've seen with adjustable clocking. http://www.northwestfab.com/203-205adaptor.html

Mechanos

12-06-2006, 10:27 AM

Check out Northwest Fab too. Theirs is the only one I've seen with adjustable clocking. http://www.northwestfab.com/203-205adaptor.html
The NFW unit is pretty versatile in mulitple clocking options it provides, but I do not care for the 3-piece bolted together design. I think I'll stick with one of the solid 1-piece designs.

slipscomb

12-06-2006, 11:05 AM

There is also Sumner Machine Works (http://www.sumnermachine.com/) that used to be Wagonner Machine Shop. ATOR is marketing a copy or derivative thereof the Wagonner adapter so either way it is a good adapter.

Sean

Mechanos

12-06-2006, 11:26 AM

I don't doubt that John Sumner's stuff is top notch... but I'm going to need a little more than:

THE ORIGINATOR OF THE "DUAL CASE" ADAPTER!

(ANYTHING ELSE IS AN "IMITATION")

EVERYDAY PRICE $549!!

To make up my mind. At least a picture or two of the product. He has pics posted from a couple of trail runs, but not one single pic posted of any of his products. He needs to invest some time/$$ in his website IMO.

MochaMike

12-06-2006, 12:21 PM

I've heard very good things about John Sumner's adapter.
My understanding is that he is a machinest who is trying to be a businessman... He brought the ATOR guys in & some shady stuff happened.

Read this:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=526887

I need some motivation here myself.....
I'm trying to find justification to spend an extra $1k for the NWF black box.

Right now, I have the following sitting in my shed: NP241 reduction box, NP203 Reduction box, & a Ford 205.

Cheapest solution would be to do the 203/205... But I honestly don't like the gear limitations either 2 or 4 to one.
Adapter would run $500-$800.
Bulletproof, but heavy.

The NWF box is 2.7, which would give me: 2, 2.7 & 5.4 to 1.
$1500-$1800
Expensive & unproven.

Next option NP241/205 (same as above), but DD machine is discontinuing them.
$500
Affordable, but aluminum 241 case, plus soon to be not made.

Followed by NP203/D300 (flipped). 2, 2.6 & 5.2 to 1.
$500 for adapter & $200 for a cheap flip kit that may leak, or $600 for a good flip kit.
I'd have to find a D300 case too, which will run me $250+.
Not to mention $400 for a HD output, or $800 for the new Staz D300 case.
Good buildable platform, but my blow the output up if I can't upgrade it right away... Plus leaks suck.

I currently have 2 4.88 gear sets on the shelf (I have to sell one set to get another (D70 for a D60).

I might sell them both & just try & get some 5s to help, then go with the 203/205.

Mechanos

12-06-2006, 12:45 PM

...Cheapest solution would be to do the 203/205... But I honestly don't like the gear limitations either 2 or 4 to one...
I don't see this as a limitation, myself.... in fact, it's an improvement. I was going to run a 4:1 gear set in the D300. That would give me 4:1 or 1:1. With the 203/205, I get another range. 3 is better than 2 in my book.

In the future, if I just can't live with myself for not keeping up with the Jones', I can always go to a LoMax 3:1 205 case and get 1, 2, 3 or 6:1.

MochaMike

12-06-2006, 02:12 PM

In the future, if I just can't live with myself for not keeping up with the Jones', I can always go to a LoMax 3:1 205 case and get 1, 2, 3 or 6:1.

Thats an option with Chevy 205s...
LoMax doesn't do Ford....

I heard about a new 4:1 205 (comes w/case) but they are price.
Does anyone else do Fords?

Currently I'm running 465/D18 w/4.88s which = 79 (1st) & 43 (2nd).
I like the 79, but want something a little deeper.

With the 203, I'd have 64 & 128 (1st) & 70 (2nd).

With 241 or BB, it would be: 64, 87, & 174 (1st), then 35, 48, & 95 (2nd).

I really like the wider range of 64, 87/95 & 174.

Mechanos

12-06-2006, 02:27 PM

Thats an option with Chevy 205s...
LoMax doesn't do Chevys....
I assume you meant "LoMax doesn't do Fords"

When the only difference is that the case is mirrored, I just don't understand why they wouldn't make a drivers drop version. That's just as silly as Stak not making a passenger drop 300 Replace-a-Case.

Here's a potentially dumb question.... does anyone make a different gear set for the 203?

Mechanos

12-06-2006, 09:36 PM

Tore into the 203 tonight and made a huge mess on the garage floor. That fawker bled like a stuck pig! Anyway, I got the range box separated from the chain case. Went ahead and pulled the output shaft out of the range box and removed the aluminum dome and bearing from the shaft. Holy fawk that snap ring holding the bearing in dome was kind of a mf'er to get out... and when it did finally come out, it went whizzing by my head at mach 1.6. Need to finish tearing the rest of the case down so I can clean it all up and paint it.

I'm going to pick up some spare parts from Misterfubar on friday so I can start working on my T19 to 203 adapter without having to pull the tranny out of my rig.

ScoutIITD

12-07-2006, 10:41 AM

Here's a potentially dumb question.... does anyone make a different gear set for the 203?

I thought Wagoneer Machine Shop had 3 to 1 gears for the 203 before they split up.

Mechanos

12-07-2006, 11:09 AM

I thought Wagoneer Machine Shop had 3 to 1 gears for the 203 before they split up.
That would be Wagoner.... not Wagoneer. It's not a Jeep thing..... :flipoff2:

Mechanos

12-07-2006, 06:58 PM

More T19 mainshaft tech.....

I received the Fort T19 shaft that Cabtop sent me (thanks again!!! :smokin: ) and I pulled some measurement on the output end. The 31-spline section has a major diameter of 1.350" and it does neck down between the output bearing and the splines to the minor diameter which is 1.305". So, Cutting the shaft down and resplining it for 32-splines is not an option.... the shaft is just too small.

Also, there is a shoulder on the Ford shaft that is not present on the IHC shaft.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=276486&stc=1&d=1165543174

Upon closer inspection of another loaded IHC mainshaft, I see that the IHC mainshaft uses a collar and lock ring setup that serves the same purpose as the shoulder on the Ford shaft.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=276487&stc=1&d=1165543174

I wonder if this is an earlier vs. later design of the shaft. At any rate, the gears string up just fine on the Ford shaft so it looks like it's a go.

Now I just need to mock it up in the trans case with a retainer/adapter so I can mark it where I need to cut it down. Then I need to send it off to have it cut down and the 32-spline section inertia welded on.

Check out this cool vid clip on inertia welding (http://www.mtiwelding.com/video/Weld_Demo_MR_Broadband.asx).

uglyscout

12-07-2006, 11:48 PM

This is the best damn tech in the IH forum I've seen in months --- maybe years ---- :beer:

Another 203 adapter for the list:

High Impact (http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/doubler.htm)

MochaMike

12-08-2006, 01:14 AM

Might as well ad to the wealth. Here is some good info:

http://www.akfabshop.com/alaskaoffroad/tech_2.htm

Also, the linke to Jed's that I mentioned before:\
http://www.jedsmachining.com/index.html

Mechanos

12-10-2006, 06:07 PM

I believe I have my adapter solution figured out. I made one out of plywood to mock things up and make sure it would work. I need to call the transmission guy that does the inertia welding and discuss a few design constraints to make sure he can modify the T19 mainshaft like I need it done to work with my adapter design. If he can't, then I'll have to make my adapter a little bit thicker.

Mechanos

12-11-2006, 11:07 PM

I got started on the adapter tonight. Picked up the piece of 6061-T6 tonight on the way home from work. Used my radial arm saw (making a backwards cut) to cut it length. The carbide tipped blade walked through it with zero hesitation. Then I laid out the center of the holes to be cut with the circle jig on the router.

Here's the first step... the 4.875" relief on one side of the piece. I made several passes, I only cut about 1/32" on each pass:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=277135&stc=1&d=1165902531

Then I flipped the piece over, moved the pin on the circle jig to the 4" hole spot and started cutting the 4" hole. Again, I only took off about 1/32" of an inch per pass. I paused for this pic about half-way through the piece.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=277136&stc=1&d=1165902531

Here it is after the final cut. The little notch on the bottom of the piece is a relief cut to clear a rib on the piece that butts upto it.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=277137&stc=1&d=1165902531

Worked just as smoothly and easily as the plywood mock up I made yesterday. I did use a few drops of the cutting fluid shown in the first pic on each pass.

I also got the holes for the "Texas" adapter drilled in the plate but called it a night after that. I still need to drill the holes for the 203 adapter and tap them, but I was too spent to mess with it.... another day. I also got all the measurements pulled, worked up a sketch, talked to Bill at Sierra Transmission, and got the T19 mainshaft packaged up so I can send it off to get it cut down and the 32-spline section inertia welded onto it. Busy night...

R290

12-11-2006, 11:43 PM

Edit... I still need to drill the holes for the 203 adapter and tap them

Looks good, gota love them carbide bits:D I just made an adapter for my FI and the mess up the first one when tapping, I was free hand tapping it and found with aluminum the tap can tilt very easy. So I drilled through a thick piece 1 1/2 and use it as a jig to keep the tap straight. I just started the tap and then clamped the jig down and finish the job. Just thought I would toss that out there for food for thought, I sure you been down the doing twice road before:eek:

Mechanos

12-12-2006, 08:32 AM

Good tip. I like to chuck the tap in the drill press and use spin the spindle by hand to get the tap started straight, then finish it up by hand. You're right, though, it is easy to get the tap off at an angle in Al.

Edit: Dropped the T19 mainshaft off at FedEx this morning on my way to work. It's on its way to get cut down and resplined.

binderbasher

12-12-2006, 06:14 PM

Mechanos

12-12-2006, 06:27 PM

Not trying to jack your thread but do you know if there is a external way to tell the difference between a t19 wide, close. I cleaned off the driver side and did not find any numbers to cross reference. Tried searching but could not find what I am looking for. Thanks
One the IHC trans, there is (or at least was) a tag under one of the top cover bolts with the IHC part number. You can look that number up on the BB to see what it is, but that's no guarantee. Either that, or put it in first, turn the input and count the number of revs it takes to turn the output 1 turn. That's about it for external.... I find it easier and more definite to just pull the top cover and take a peek inside.

misterfubar

12-12-2006, 06:31 PM

The numbers on the side are different, but I can't recall what they say. The easiest way I've found is to put the tranny in 1st gear and spin the output. On the Wide, the input will spin a little over 6 times, and on the close it will spin 4 time for every revolution of the output.

If the IH tag is still on the tranny, it will say T-427 for the wide, or T-428 for the close.

(edited for brainfart)

binderbasher

12-12-2006, 06:31 PM

Looks like I will have to the tags are gone, thanks.

Mechanos

12-13-2006, 09:44 AM

Got some more done last night. Lined up, drilled and tapped all the holes for the 203 side of the adapter plate. I used the drill press (turning the spindle by hand) to start the tap and cut about 3 to 4 threads to keep it straight. Then I took the tap out of the drill press to finish tapping the holes by hand. All that's left is to trim off some excess material, clearance it for some of the 203 bolts, and countersink the T19 bolt holes.

R290

12-13-2006, 04:31 PM

Not sure if you have Woodcrafter store out your way, but there carbide router bits are on sale for $5. :)

Gen. Nonsense

12-13-2006, 05:11 PM

I used the drill press (turning the spindle by hand) to start the tap and cut about 3 to 4 threads to keep it straight.
I bet that was fun.:laughing:

guidolyons

12-13-2006, 05:22 PM

Fo' shizzle :smokin: Damn Mechanos, that circle jig worked like a champ!

Mechanos

12-13-2006, 10:25 PM

Stick a fork in the booty fab adapter.... it's done. :grinpimp:

OEM Texas t-case adapter bolted to back of T19... booty fabbed adapter is then bolted to the Texas adapter:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=277398&stc=1&d=1166073108

Next, the OEM TH400 to NP203 adapter is bolted to the booty fabbed adapter:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=277399&stc=1&d=1166073108

Another view from the side:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=277400&stc=1&d=1166073108

Last one:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=277401&stc=1&d=1166073108

The relief cuts are to allow for the installation of the nuts onto the studs that bolt the 203 to the adapter. They truely look booty fab since they were cut freehand. I could spit shine it some more, but why?.... it's functional. Is it a blingin' CNC work of art? Certainly not!! Does it work? yeah. :flipoff2:

Total thickness of the stack from face of T19 case to face of 203 case is 2 7/8". Now I have to wait for the modified T19 mainshaft to get back from Sierra.

TheCopperCowboy

12-17-2006, 08:20 PM

Damn! You got some skills! :smokin:

Mechanos

12-19-2006, 12:40 PM

Bill called from Sierra Transmission Supply today.... said he finished the shaft and it's packaged up ready to begin its return journey. He ended up charging me at the upper end of the range he quoted me since he had an extra hour in it straightening the shaft. Even though the shaft I sent him was new (never been run) he said it was about 0.005" out at the end of the shaft. After straightening the shaft and then welding the new splines on the end, Bill said it's at about 0.0015" runout at the end of the shaft.

Anyhow, it's on its way back and when it gets here, I'll post up some pics...

tsm1mt

12-19-2006, 02:20 PM

Mechanos

12-19-2006, 02:43 PM

Cool... so what is this conversion going to run, ball-park, to adapt the T19 to the '203?

Shaft mods and adapter.. forget the overhaul the T19 probably already needed.. :)

Shaft mods: (Straightening, cutting, welding on new splines, clean-up machining) $150
Shipping the shaft back and forth: $40
Adapter: $34

Total: $224

.... and it's only 2 7/8" long from T19 case to 203 case!!

EDIT: I talked with Bill again later this afternoon to dicuss payment for the services rendered. He did say that I got a great deal on the shaft. He went on to say that his business is wholesale that he doesn't really do very much retail business at all and doesn't really want to do retail. What does all this mean??? Basically, he may not be willing to help out the next guy... I just don't know. For whatever reason, he helped me out and for that I'm extremely greatful!! I also found out that he is a wheeler too and has a built Jeep with a Hemi/700R4 (didn't catch what t-case) and 60/14. I guess when you live that close to the 'con, it'd be hard not to wheel.

misterfubar

12-19-2006, 04:28 PM

Total: $224

.... and it's only 2 7/8" long from T19 case to 203 case!!

Sold!! I'll take one kit, let me know what email addy to send the paypal to. :flipoff2:

Mechanos

12-19-2006, 05:01 PM

Sold!! I'll take one kit, let me know what email addy to send the paypal to. :flipoff2:

I gave myself a hell of a discount..... 100% off on labor. You couldn't afford one if I made it for you! :laughing: :laughing: :flipoff2:

Mechanos

12-27-2006, 06:02 PM

OK, time to wrap this thread up. I got the shaft back from Sierra today and I just had to stick it in the trans to make sure all my measurements were correct. Here's the sequence:

The modified shaft:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279319&stc=1&d=1167267559

Rear output bearing installed on shaft and shaft sitting in T19 case:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279320&stc=1&d=1167267559

"Texas" adapter/bearing retainer installed:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279321&stc=1&d=1167267559

The adapter to adapter adapter :flipoff2: :
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279322&stc=1&d=1167267559

The TH400 to NP203 adapter:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279323&stc=1&d=1167267559

Mechanos

12-27-2006, 06:05 PM

And the money shot........

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279325&stc=1&d=1167267955

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279326&stc=1&d=1167267955

Well, that about does it for this thread.

misterfubar

12-27-2006, 06:16 PM

I have to admit, I've got a chubby right now.

That's beautiful.

I'm free this weekend if you want to come by and install it in my Scout. :flipoff2:

Mechanos

02-12-2007, 08:47 PM

Some more bling.... granted it doesn't look as good as my router and radial arm saw work, but it'll have to do. :flipoff2:

Mechanos

02-13-2007, 08:20 AM

Didn't have time last night to add any info about the triple stick kit, so I'll do it now. At first, it was pretty hard to bring myself to spend the money on it, but I am more than impressed!! This thing is extremely well made. Everything is laser cut and bent on a CNC press brake and the weld look very good too. It is a COMPLETE kit right down to the shift boots, knobs and all the hardware to mount everything. The linkage consists of all-thread with shperical rod ends on both ends.

Bottom line: I could have spent less money and shitload of time making my own shifter but it wouldn't have come close to the professional quality of this kit. I'd recommend it to anyone doing a 203/205 doubler setup and is looking for a triple stick option. Well worth the money.

tsm1mt

02-13-2007, 11:40 AM

YellowIH

02-13-2007, 11:49 AM

Wow....you are some tech producing Engineer. Amazing what one can do when you set your mind to it. Good job. Great tech.

Mechanos

02-13-2007, 01:00 PM

Mechanos,

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=279325&stc=1&d=1167267955

How much lower than the T19 mounting boss does the NP203 sit? What's the lowest point in this combo?

I've read a lot of people clocking the 203 180-deg up for more clearance, but that would foul up the whole triple-stick bit.

If the 203 doesn't hang any lower than the frame, maybe it's not a big deal (if the T19 + mount bushing + crossmember is as tall as the 203).

Let's see... running off memory here. The mounting foot on the TH400/203 adapter is about an 1" lower than the T19 mounting foot. The actual low point of the combo is the 203's gear case which is about another 0.5" below that. I'll have to pull some real measurements tonight to accurately answer that though. I ordered the doubler adapter with the 205 clocked up 2" which makes it "flat" with the bottom of the 203.

Yes, you can clock the 203 however you want as long as you can still bolt it up to the trans. In my case, I could clock it at 0°, 60°, 120°, 180°, or 240°... anything else would have required building my "shorty" (as you call it) adapter with a different clocked bolt pattern. As I understand it, ORD makes different versions of the triple stick mounting depending on how you have your cases clocked. If you clock the 203 at 180°, it will be sticking up through the floorboard. If you clock it at 90°, you get a very flat setup, you have to consider what t-case you're running. With a p-drop 205, you'd probably want to use a Ford 203 since the shift rail would be on the top (less chance of leakage). If using a d-drop 205, you'd probably want to use a GM/Dodge 203 for the same reason. I don't know how you'd hook up the triple stick setup to a 90° 203.

For your last point.... the th400/203 adpater feet are at the same elevation as the 203/205 adapter mounting feet. You want to, at the very least, use the 203/205 adapter mounting feet per ORD. So, that means I will be using both the th400/203 and the 203/205 mounting feet and my crossmember will be slightly lower than the bottom of the frame rails.

I'll try to pull some actual measurements tonight.

tsm1mt

02-13-2007, 02:01 PM

Let's see... running off memory here. The mounting foot on the TH400/203 adapter is about an 1" lower than the T19 mounting foot. The actual low point of the combo is the 203's gear case which is about another 0.5" below that. I'll have to pull some real measurements tonight to accurately answer that though. I ordered the doubler adapter with the 205 clocked up 2" which makes it "flat" with the bottom of the 203.

So the 2" up puts the 205's lowest point even with a "normal" clock NP203's bottom.

Which, in a SII with a T19, is going to put the bottom of the 205 and the bottom of the 203 a little bit lower than the frame rails, using a stock (-ish, anyhow) crossmember, T19 mount, and engine mounts. (realizing you need to add at least one more crossmember to help hold the 203/205 weight)

The angle I'm pondering is that one of the features IH touted was the flat belly and that nothing hung lower than the frame rails - IH driving guides actually directed the driver to climb something, let the frame sit on the rock/whatever, and use the front or rear to push the frame along this object, until the Scout tipped over and the other end caught traction.

So I'm contemplating "lowering" the frame between link mounts to retain the "smooth slide" feature and just want a grasp on if it's 1" or 3".. and decide at which point re-clocking the 203 becomes a smarter choice.

Mechanos

02-13-2007, 02:28 PM

So the 2" up puts the 205's lowest point even with a "normal" clock NP203's bottom.

Which, in a SII with a T19, is going to put the bottom of the 205 and the bottom of the 203 a little bit lower than the frame rails, using a stock (-ish, anyhow) crossmember, T19 mount, and engine mounts. (realizing you need to add at least one more crossmember to help hold the 203/205 weight)

The angle I'm pondering is that one of the features IH touted was the flat belly and that nothing hung lower than the frame rails - IH driving guides actually directed the driver to climb something, let the frame sit on the rock/whatever, and use the front or rear to push the frame along this object, until the Scout tipped over and the other end caught traction.

So I'm contemplating "lowering" the frame between link mounts to retain the "smooth slide" feature and just want a grasp on if it's 1" or 3".. and decide at which point re-clocking the 203 becomes a smarter choice.

Yup... that pretty much sums it up. As you may recall in my other thread about 203/205 crossmembers, one of the points I mentioned is the fact that this setup would cause me to lose the "flat belly" I have now. I guess when think about it, if I were to lose 80 lbs. then gain back 240 lbs, my belly would probably be bigger too. :flipoff2:

I'm planning on making one large crossmember that picks up the TH400/203 feet and the 203/205 feet and then attaching the whole thing to the frame and making the space between the front and rear of this crossmember a big skid plate that is turned up on the fore and aft edges. The attachment points of the crossmember to the frame would incorporate approach and departure "ramps" to keep the attachment points from being "anchors" to hang up on stuff. I don't plan on using the stock T19 mount at all (although it wouldn't be too hard to make a bracket off the front of the crossmember that would pick that point up as well). The ladder type (or H-frame, whatever) crossmember will also help to stiffen the frame to help eliminate some frame flex. Make sense?