Ok asking for advice now suckers :smokin:

Any you guys run 4.75 before you upgraded to bigger and better things? Would you agree 10x41 4.11 are stronger than stock 3.54 13x46?

some options out there:
GBR 4.11 10x41
GBR 4.75 8x38
KAM 4.11 ?
KAM 4.75 ?
Stock Series 4.7 10x47
Stock 3.54 13x46

according to KAM's website the 4.75 is 50% stronger than a stock gear set. How can that be true?

GBR 8x38 claims that there is less teeth but they are thicker allowing for greater strength. how can less teeth be stronger than series 4.7 10x47. In real life this does seem to be the case.

Look, don't want to hear go toy, go sals, go dana blah blah. People who ran these only please. Thank you amigo's :grinpimp:

go toy, go sals, go dana

Thicker teeth allow for a thicker more ductile core. but I would assume this would be offset a little by having less actual teeth in mesh. I ran English Ford Transit diffs in my Rover at one time, and their 5.6 :1ring and pinions were actually stronger than their 4.625:1 due to less but thicker teeth.
I would like to see some company design a ring and pinion that continues the length of the ring gear teeth all the way to the circumference ofthe carrier as Toyota did on their later Landcruiser diffs
Bill.

I used the series and broke 2 in a half :mad3: :mad3:
I bought the KAM 4,75 and until now nothing to say.. running very well with my MAxxis 35".... never broke

But definitely GO TOY :flipoff2:

I ran the 4.75's in my DII and lost some teeth off the ring gear on my first trip to Moab. From what we could tell, the pinion deflected enough to take off the ends of a few of the ring gear teeth. Ended my trip right there since GBR was out of stock at the time.:mad3:

"Would you agree 10x41 4.11 are stronger than stock 3.54 13x46?"

NO!!!!!

Lower numerically is stronger. 4.11 blow up as do, especially the 4.75s. someone posted up about pinning the diffs, short of that you will break them.

Salisbury rear, toy front or Eaton Rear/D60 front.

Salisbury rear, toy front or Eaton Rear/D60 front.

:shaking:

Call dynatrac and just have them make D60 f&r for you. Change to a more common (ie. cheeper to get rims) bolt pattern.

Salisbury rear, toy conversion front keeps the rover bolt pattern.

Eaton rear, D60 front is 8 lug.

You have have gold plated daytona 144 spoke 20s for the cost of a pair of dynatrac 60s as opposed to $1500 for either of the above combos.

Salisbury rear, toy conversion front keeps the rover bolt pattern.

Eaton rear, D60 front is 8 lug.

You have have gold plated daytona 144 spoke 20s for the cost of a pair of dynatrac 60s as opposed to $1500 for either of the above combos.

So you are saying you can find a Salisbury here in the US and do the toy conversion for 1500$?

I am cheap. Maybe you end up at around 2k-2500 after lockers.

My salisbury was $250 or so. ECR blows them out every year at that price or less for the drum take offs (last year it was $150). $325 for the Detroit and $400 for shafts.

Pick and pull the toy diff for $50.

What does keith get for the toy axles? I know the rover ones he sells are $660.

Ron

My salisbury was $250 or so. ECR blows them out every year at that price or less for the drum take offs (last year it was $150). $325 for the Detroit and $400 for shafts.


What are they swapping out the Salisbury for?
I had never seen a RTR complete drum to drum rear go for less the 700$ before.

ECR swaps out all the drum brake 110 rears for complete 110 salisbury disc axles. They sold two or three last year but I was too busy to drive up (they also had a take off 110 SW tub which is what I really wanted, but it sold before I had a chance to get up there).

I bought mine out of Ohio for $250 or $300 IIRC four years ago, and it had the sway bar mounts on it.

$300 for a sals? sign me up.

ok some good info folks.

So shifting gears now, Toy Front gives 30 spline and more options on gearing. I've seen a toy R&P and they don't seem much beefier, so why are they stronger?

It's the fundamental design of the diff!

toy=hypoid: pinion intersects the ring off set towards the top or bottom of the ring
rover=shit i.e. spiral bevel: pinion intersects the ring at the center

Yeah, there are some stout spiral bevel 3rds i.e. ENVs, but the larger larger tooth engagement area for a hypoid style diff is stronger than rover shit, given the same ring diameter, R&P ratio...

Ok asking for advice now suckers :smokin:

Any you guys run 4.75 before you upgraded to bigger and better things? Would you agree 10x41 4.11 are stronger than stock 3.54 13x46?

some options out there:
GBR 4.11 10x41
GBR 4.75 8x38
KAM 4.11 ?
KAM 4.75 ?
Stock Series 4.7 10x47
Stock 3.54 13x46

according to KAM's website the 4.75 is 50% stronger than a stock gear set. How can that be true?

GBR 8x38 claims that there is less teeth but they are thicker allowing for greater strength. how can less teeth be stronger than series 4.7 10x47. In real life this does seem to be the case.

Look, don't want to hear go toy, go sals, go dana blah blah. People who ran these only please. Thank you amigo's :grinpimp:

Hi,

we make and sell a heck of a lot of 4.11 R & P gears, ours use a 9/37 tooth count and we have very few problems with them, I have seen a couple of failures but usually only when the pinion bearings collapse or the driver owns up to jumping the front axle 5 foot in the air,

as a rule the lower the ratio the weaker the R & P gear assuming all other things are equal, as the ratio gets lower the pinion gets smaller diameter, so you are transmitting the same load through less teeth,

To answer your original question, despite the above theory I don't think there is a great deal of difference between the 3.54 and the 4.11, I have seen more broken 3.54's but this may be because :

1) there are more out there

2) often they fail because they are on the stock 2 pin diff centre that just flexes and lets the R & P get out of mesh,

although some people like the 4.75 ratio, I am not a great fan of them because of a few reasons :

the pinion diameter is too small and asking for trouble,

for most people they are too low and not ideal on the road (I guess this depends on tyre size),

very slow seller, the last batch of 50 we made too 2 years to sell, we sell over 300 4.11's a year,

so i think GBR gears are KAM gears.

nevertheless, I may be forced to go something else due to the lack of options and strength here.

I have a set of 4.75 special reverse cut gears for the front, I just need to find something strong for the rear... doesn't look like that will happen. Does anyone have some 4.75's laying around from swaps? Not thrilled to spend $500 for GBR when I know they will break.

so i think GBR gears are KAM gears.

nevertheless, I may be forced to go something else due to the lack of options and strength here.

I have a set of 4.75 special reverse cut gears for the front, I just need to find something strong for the rear... doesn't look like that will happen. Does anyone have some 4.75's laying around from swaps? Not thrilled to spend $500 for GBR when I know they will break.

Don't worry, your front will break too. :flipoff2:

Actually Yousef ran 4.75 GBR gears up front for a couple of years in his 90... He broke a lot of stuf but not those gears...
I'm not sure about the difference in ratio diff but what about 4.88 toy in the rear and 4.7 up front? it's only about 2.5%... I've never actually thought about it much..

You guys all need to get 2.5na diesels in your rovers... you'll never brake anything that way ;)

Hi,

we make and sell a heck of a lot of 4.11 R & P gears, ours use a 9/37 tooth count and we have very few problems with them, I have seen a couple of failures but usually only when the pinion bearings collapse or the driver owns up to jumping the front axle 5 foot in the air,

as a rule the lower the ratio the weaker the R & P gear assuming all other things are equal, as the ratio gets lower the pinion gets smaller diameter, so you are transmitting the same load through less teeth,

To answer your original question, despite the above theory I don't think there is a great deal of difference between the 3.54 and the 4.11, I have seen more broken 3.54's but this may be because :

1) there are more out there

2) often they fail because they are on the stock 2 pin diff centre that just flexes and lets the R & P get out of mesh,

although some people like the 4.75 ratio, I am not a great fan of them because of a few reasons :

the pinion diameter is too small and asking for trouble,

for most people they are too low and not ideal on the road (I guess this depends on tyre size),

very slow seller, the last batch of 50 we made too 2 years to sell, we sell over 300 4.11's a year,

are yours reverse cut?

Actually Yousef ran 4.75 GBR gears up front for a couple of years in his 90... He broke a lot of stuf but not those gears...
I'm not sure about the difference in ratio diff but what about 4.88 toy in the rear and 4.7 up front? it's only about 2.5%... I've never actually thought about it much..

hmm perhaps, i'll look into this. but then again, the toy gears aren't that much beefier than rovers, though there are much more options and they are cheaper.

are yours reverse cut?

no, ashcrofts are not.

Which brings me to my next question, how much stronger does the reverse cut make it?

I am 90% sure KAM & GBR are reverse cut (or were at one point).

no, ashcrofts are not.

Which brings me to my next question, how much stronger does the reverse cut make it?

I am 90% sure KAM & GBR are reverse cut (or were at one point).

Reverse cut gears should be used on the front only AFAIK - means they will be as strong as a rear when driving forwards. There is another option for a 4.7:1 diff - still a 10/47 ratio, but a very strong coiller only version made for the front diff of the Australian Army perentie 6x6s - it costs about $900 for one ring and pinion though (and yes it is reverse cut).

You guys all need to get 2.5na diesels in your rovers... you'll never brake anything that way ;)

hmmmn...the only thing I can't break with the 2.5na is the fawkin' speed limit......:flipoff2:

hmmmn...the only thing I can't break with the 2.5na is the fawkin' speed limit......:flipoff2:

LOL, the only thing I seem to break with my Rover is shock absorbers (and tires)

no, ashcrofts are not.

Which brings me to my next question, how much stronger does the reverse cut make it?

I am 90% sure KAM & GBR are reverse cut (or were at one point).

as Krazzle says, ours are not reverse cut (not are KAM's), and although I understand the theory I really don't think it is necessary or makes a great deal of difference in the real world, as mentioned above we have sold a heck of a lot of these gears I would guess at about 800 sets and as stated above I have only seen 2 broken, one from collapsed bearings and once when the guy did a 5 foot jump out the top of a climb and kept the power on, we rebuilt his diff with the used ARB, new 4.11 and pegged it,

I sometimes think you look so hard you miss the obvious answer,

I have given Krazzle a price for 2 x 4.11's delivered with carriage to your door and I think this will be hard if not impossible to beat, if anyone else wants a price drop me a PM,

as mentioned above we have sold a heck of a lot of these gears I would guess at about 800 sets and as stated above I have only seen 2 broken,

I must have missed something, your saying you have only seen 2 sets of your R&P's broken?

I must have missed something, your saying you have only seen 2 sets of your R&P's broken?

Yes, there may be more but I only recall 2,

I think I should put a set to the test to see how strong they are, Ive broken the stockers, and the 4.75s on 35s, I wonder if the ashcrofts are up to the challenge to prove their ring gear is no longer the weakpoint( now that Rovertracks introduced the Longfeild to eliminate the old CV weakpoint:grinpimp: ). I may have to give it a go..:smokin:

what about messing with the t-case gears as suggested on dweeb? the discussion there made it sound as if it were a perfectly reasonable option that was done on a fairly regular basis. i've never even seen a new set of gears for the LT230 apart from GBR's offerings and a defender t-case. would anyone care to skool a noob?

andy

what about messing with the t-case gears as suggested on dweeb? the discussion there made it sound as if it were a perfectly reasonable option that was done on a fairly regular basis. i've never even seen a new set of gears for the LT230 apart from GBR's offerings and a defender t-case. would anyone care to skool a noob?

andy

T case gears are high range only, we the MAIN STREAM offroaders Like the control of low gears while off road... Unkess you wanna spend 2k for the super low range maxi drive gears for the T_case, NO WAY!! :grinpimp:

The LT230s come in various gear configurations depending on the application. Stock low range for all variants that I am aware of is 3.3:1. High Range can be 1.6:1 for NA diesels (ex MOD usually), 1.4:1 for a lot of 300Tdi applications & NAS 110, 1.2:1 is most common in the US as it is used in all LT230 variants in RRC, Discovery 1 & 2, and D90. There are 3 different 1.2:1 gearsets commonly available. Early ones in RRC and early 1994 D90s had a 26 tooth input gear. These boxes are desirable if you want to fit an Ashcroft Underdrive and retain the 1.2:1 highrange. Mid 1994 D90 & early Disco1s used a slightly different gearset with a 28 tooth input gear. About 1996 the gear pattern changed again and the gear teeth got finer and the new, quieter gears had a 38 tooth input. All the 1.4:1 & 1.6:1 boxes use a 26 tooth input.
If you swap stock t-box gears you can change high range gearing but stock low range will remain the same. Going to a 1.4:1 box will yield about the same overall gearing as going to 4.11 R&P...BUT ONLY IN HIGH RANGE.
If you want to affect LOW RANGE ONLY, you can get a gearset from GBR (MAXIDRIVE) that will give about 4:1 low range and keep high range gears the same.
The t-box I built for my D90 has both 1.4:1 high range and 4:1 low range. I built it about 5-6 years ago. At the time, the availability of 4.11 R&P sets was spotty at best and replacements weren't always readily available. I got the gearing I wanted by building the t-box and kept the stock 3.54 R&Ps that are cheap & easy to source.
Today, things are a bit different. 4.11 & 4.75 R&P availability is better, plus you have the TOY conversion option (and all of the available ratios) as well. Overall, if you want your gearing change to affect both high & low range, swapping R&Ps is usually more cost effective. If your goal is to only affect low or high range individually, a t-box gear swap may be more viable.

Maxi-drive offer both a 30% and 49% reduction for the low range gear set in the lt230 transfer cases.

stock = 3.32-1
30% = 4.316-1
49% = 4.9468-1

Maxi-drive gears are straight cut and made from en39b

cheers, serg

You guys all need to get 2.5na diesels in your rovers... you'll never brake anything that way ;)

I installed a 2.25na diesel, and it still didn't help. I broke a front 4.7 R&P and a rear 24-spline salisbury shaft.

T case gears are high range only, we the MAIN STREAM offroaders Like the control of low gears while off road... Unkess you wanna spend 2k for the super low range maxi drive gears for the T_case, NO WAY!! :grinpimp:

and an Atlas case is well over 2k so what is your point. an LT230 with deeper gears is just as good of a case. If you had a heep NP231 you'd spend the same money getting the SYE and other doo-dads. that's why they made the atlas in the first place.

and have you priced transfer-case upgrades for yotas? it ain't cheep -

regardless of make, if you wanna play you gotta pay.

4 rear stock open diff this year and still counting with 35's

yes, as pointed out a t-case gear upgrade is not an option. I could careless about highway, I want low range.

Maxidrive gears are well over $2k, no thanks, toy option before that.

And for all you guys who run "Stock Cv's with 31" tires" or "open this" and "open that" :flipoff2: you are not wheeling it as I do. It's not driving skill, it's fucking big rocks.

rob-

thanks for the info. i thought that's what was going on but i wasn't sure.

andy

I installed a 2.25na diesel, and it still didn't help. I broke a front 4.7 R&P and a rear 24-spline salisbury shaft.

Wow! That took some doing...

FWIW there is at least one other source for 4.11s. I know Draken Offroad has them for ~$355. I don't know if they are on their website.

looks like they are based in NY. I've come to conclude there are 2 gears makers, KAM & Ashcroft, everyone in states are just resellers.

I'm going with 4.11 ashcrofts pegged with 35x12.50x15.

crappy ass driving, hard wheeling... we will see. If they blow, toy here I come. :laughing:

and an Atlas case is well over 2k so what is your point. an LT230 with deeper gears is just as good of a case.

Although the LT230 is a stout casewith a fairly good reputation for strength, I would think that if push comes to shove an Atlas would prove to be stronger due to the fact that the front and rear axle drive torque is distributed through 2 sets of high/low range gears and output shafts, compared to the single set on the LT230. Sort of like comparing a 4 pinion differential to a 2 pinion one ?
Bill.

looks like they are based in NY. I've come to conclude there are 2 gears makers, KAM & Ashcroft, everyone in states are just resellers.



There is more than 2, Draken's are made in Italy as is most of their other Equipe stuff. Just the same I'm sure your Ashcroft ones will be fine and you'll be happy. I think I'd have gone the Toy route though.