I have been searching and reading about this engine swap but have not found any info about making a smog legal swap with this engine. What about smog with other engine swaps like the 2.0 tracker engine any ideas?

In CA,you can swap any engine you want,as long as its the same year or newer than the receiving vehicle,and it retains all the smog gear that came with the incoming engine.

Example......My 86 Samurai has a 2.8L Chevy V-6 from an 87 S10.All the smog gear from the S10 is retained,and any mods made to the engine are CARB legal ones.It smogs to 87 light truck standards and passes with no problems.The smog reff. will issue you a special decal with a bar code that has all your swap info,so smog stations will not have any problems.Both my cars have swapped,later model EFI engines and they both pass easily.....BTW my other car is an 84 RX-7 with a later model turbo rotary engine.

There are a few rotary Samurai out there.....not sure if any are/were smog legal,but it wouldnt be hard to make one that is.Rotary engines are pretty basic with their smog output......LOTS of HC, and thats about it.That equals to a big,high temp cat and air injection.Rotaries are naturally low in NoX,so very few of them have EGR's.And the PCV and fuel vapor system are integrated into the "rats nest" of steel and rubber lines on top of the engine.Although everything is oddly shaped and placed,the smog control and engine control systems are really no different than any other engine of the same era.

The best rotary for a Samurai in terms of simplicty and availibility would be the non-turbo S4 engine.Thats the 2nd gen RX-7 from 86 to 88.There are LOTS of them in the wrecking yards,and all the cars from that time period have the same engine,regardless of trim or body style(except the Turbo model)......in bone stock EFI trim,your looking at about 145HP and about 130lbs torque.The torque comes on very smooth and even, on the N/A rotaries,so I highly doubt youd hurt the stock T-case.Milage would likely be in the high teens to about 22MPG depending on your weight.Non turbo rotaries are known to be quite tough and regularly exceed 200K without a tear down.Most failures occur when people violate the specfic needs of a rotary engine.....like clean/cool oil,no revving when cold,NEVER overheating and failing to keep the sparkplugs fresh.

If you decide to tackle a rotary swap and need any info,gimme a holler.Im kinda a Guru on the RX-7 forums since Ive done a few succesful smog legal EFI rotary swaps and installing a later model 2nd gen EFI rotary is something a lot of 1st gen owners look to do.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/rentalguy/IMG_1336.jpg

Steve

never knew there was som1 who owned a zuk and a 7 like me.....anyway i cant really ad much since he kinda went over all of it. Some first gens came with EFI. I have a 1985 GSL-SE that has EFI. I think the 84 SE's might have EFI also? Most other engines from 1st gens will be 12a carbed (1.1 Liter) as where mine and his are 13b EFI (1.3 liter). As far as smog goes i dont have 2 worry about it but i have heard that dumping alchohol in will work wonders for passing. I have wanted to do a rotary swap in my sammi but right now i dont have an extra engine or time for it. im suprised som1 hasnt talked crap about the rotary yet. So many people i talk to say they are junk, what a joke. I have also had a ton of people tell me they are so hard to fix and stuff.......dont listen to these people these engines are really pretty simple. If you take apart a 4 banger i can about garuntee you will have more parts than a rotary. like chevizuki said oil and keeping it cool and no cold revs are the main things here. if you want more power out of it you can either go with the stock turbo or port the N/A and get a good header. i have never had a problem with my car. The problems i hear about are usually human error related. if you have any ?'s you can pm me also, if i cant answer i bet chevizuki can and if we both cant we will find som1 who can answer it easily. chevizuki are you on rx7club.com forums?

Thanks for the info but just few more questions. Who is the smog ref? Do you bring your vehicle to this person to be inspected? Also about the rotory engine swap, from what I have read the transmission in the rx7's are realy long and people end up moving the tranfercase back a couple of inches, is there a mazda transmission that is shorter so I would not have to do this? As far as the efi goes how hard do you think it would be rewire the samurai for the rotory engine?

well for the smog ref ? and the tranny ? im not gonna answer cuz im not 100% sure. as far as the wiring harness goes....the EFI harness i dont think would be that big of a deal. i have yanked an entire harness out of a 2nd gen no biggy. you can chop out everything you dont need and keep only the main stuff i doubt it would be that hard. you other option would be to get a standalone and if you want a cheap one Megasquirt would be fine. some people dont like megasquirt but i guess it just depends on who you are.

On the RX7Club and Mazspeed forums,Im Steve84GS.
Im origianlly from the Mazspeed site,as their #2 poster.My car has been on the COTM page of Mazspeed for a couple years now,its a smaller 1st gen only site thats getting a little slow,however all the guys there are top notch.I went over to the larger RX7Club forums because theres more going on there.My car is also featured on Mariah's website and I took best 1st gen at last years Sevenstock in L.A.

Zuki06....you are correct,all GSL-SE's had EFI,they were the first and were unchanged from 84-85.The SE has the lowest ranged torque of any EFI rotary,with a peak of 135lbs at only 2500RPM....very unrotary-like.But the SE was a special, top of the line model only made for 2 years.Its hard to come by,many are still in the hands of their original owners,or are in very good condition.A shame to pillage such a fine vehicle.But,the 2nd gen RX-7s are very common in wrecking yards.The 86-88 S4 non turbo engine is a direct off-spring of the SE engine,with more HP and only slightly higher torque peak.

Baker84.....The smog ref is a master tech that does all the work for the state,in regards to smog inspections,he also trains new techs.Where I live,he's stationed at the local Junior College.Basically,if you get a smog ticket,noise pollution ticket,or are performing an engine swap,the refferee is the one that will do the inspection,testing and signing off of your vehicle.Since he works for the state,he cant be bought off or give away any "buddy" deals(in theory).The actual inspection is no different than a regular smog test.The ref will inspect the engine,make sure all rules are followed and check that the tailpipe numbers are within spec.If all's well,your in and out in 1/2 hour with a new sticker under the hood saying that your car is legal and can be tested at any facility.
The 3 rules for engine swaps in CA are as follows....
1st.The doner engine must be from the same year or newer than the receiving vehicle.
2nd.All smog gear from the doner car must be retained and working once the engine is transplanted.
3rd.The doner and receiving vehicles must be from the same vehicle type.In other words,no putting a truck engine into a passenger car....or a medium duty truck engine into a light duty truck.This is because cars and light trucks are more tightly regulated than bigger trucks,like duallies and commercial vehicles.Ive heard you can go backwards and put lighter duty engines into heavier duty vehicles,(like a car engine into a light duty truck) but Ive never confirmed that for sure.

The rotary trannies are no longer or different than any other tranny,except that their bellhousing pattern is specific to the rotary.Any rotary tranny from about 75 to present can be swapped onto any rotary from that time period.The bellhousings are the same,you just have to juggle the correct flywheel/counterweight and clutch for the engine/trans you choose.The turbo 5-speeds are very,very tough.The exact opposite is true of the non-turbo 5 speeds.Not that they would have any trouble moving a Samurai around,but most have many miles on them by now,and its tough to find an N/A tranny thats still in good shape.The rotary engine is VERY small,you can use that advantage to move the engine forward as much as possible,so the tranny doesnt extend too far back.The fact that the rotary is also short and compact means that your weight distribution wont be greatly affected,even if you push the engine forward a lot.Tunnel clearance shouldnt be a problem,and their oilpans arent too tall either.For a 4 wheeler,Id recommend the 87-92 turbo trans,regardless of what engine you choose.Its just a damn tough unit....a lot of the twin turbo 3rd gen guys swap out their boxes for the tougher,older unit from the single turbo 2nd gens.100 bucks on Ebay can get you a low milage J-spec unit.

The wiring isnt too difficult.80% of it is plug and play from the ECU to the engine.The entire right side harness is this way.The smaller left side harness,which consists of about 12 wires,must be made from scratch.This is because the wires for the ECU are hopelessly integrated into the under-dash wiring harness,which is huge and mostly un-needed for an engine swap.Its not tough at all,considering the complexity of more modern EFI engines.The entire EFI system can be made to work perfectly without any splicing or cutting into the receiving vehicle.Ive done it several times,and I also make up ready to wire ECU gangplugs and wiring instructions for others looking to swap 2nd gen EFI engines into their cars.I can help you once you decide on a course of action,just ask.

Heres my car,it took 10 years to build and has been done for about 3.It might look familiar if you regular any of the 1st gen sites...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/rentalguy/DSC02050.jpg

ahhhh i know who you are now...kinda haha. I have drooled many of times over that car! i love it! I might be doing this myself (rotary into a sammi) and i want to use a carbed 12a mainly because i can get it for 200 bucks running and all that crap. my main concern is the engine to the tranny? which would be cheaper/easier? making an adapter plate for the 12a to the stock sammi tranny and getting the spline done up? or just gettin a tranny from a 7? That will really throw my gearing with a 7 tranny.......and thats not good cuz im am moving up to a 30" tire....with a 7 tranny will it roast my clutch or even move???? i am really wanting to do this. i am waiting till spring since i dont drive the 7 in the snow. I just want to get all the parts and what not lined up. thx

RX-7 GSL-SE 85 3.622 2.186 1.419 1.000 0.715
RX-7 Base 86-91 3.476 2.002 1.366 1.000 0.711
those are the trannys i can get ........does anyone have the sammi tranny specs?

For simplicity,Id stick with a rotary trans.
You can always make up the difference with differential gears,and then T-case gears if off-road crawling isnt slow enough.

All N/A trannies have the same clutch spline count and bellhousing pattern....so either will work.Starters can vary with generation,so youll have to experiment a little to be sure the ring gear will match and the starter will mount....if you mix a 1st gen motor and 2nd gen tranny.
Youll MUST retain the flywheel thats made for the engine,in order to maintain balance.Or you can go with an aftermarket light flywheel and counterweight....although thats pricey and the factory flywheel is very heavy,perfect for this type of use.

I was really wondering about the gear ratios? im not sure if i will be able to afford gears right away when i complete this i was jw if it would even move lol?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/rentalguy/DSC02050.jpg

WOW....that thing looks soooo nice.....

how to they handle? i used to know a guy that had one and it was pretty quick from what i remember (i was 11 at the time :p ), but we just went in a straight line so i didn't get to experience the handling of it...

there is one sitting up the road that i have thought about trying to buy numerous times, but figured they wouldn't part with it so i have never stopped...

o yah, what is done to that thing body/suspension wise? it looks do much different than the one i am refering to for some reason

From this angle it's hard to tell but it looks like a wide body kit

zuku26 ur right its a wide body kit im assuming from mariah since he said hes on their website. Mine handles great and is pretty much stock. So does anyone know the zuk tranny ratio?

Sammi ratios 1st 3.652 2nd 1.947 3rd 1.423 4th 1.000 5th 0.795
RX-7 GSL-SE 85 3.622 2.186 1.419 1.000 0.715
RX-7 Base 86-91 3.476 2.002 1.366 1.000 0.711

theys dont seem to be off a lot but im not big into gearing so how will this affect the sammi???

never knew there was som1 who owned a zuk and a 7 like me.....

Another one here! Two Zooks (Sammy and a Kick) and an 82 GSL.


Sean :cool:

never knew there was som1 who owned a zuk and a 7 like me.....

X3 got my LWB project and a 85 gsl though its gonna get a chevy transplant

Those gear ratios sound fine,and the rotary actually makes pretty decent torque....a lot more than a Zuki engine anyways.As I said before,it'd probably be best to stick with the heavy stock flywheel to enhance lowend performance.Youll likely have some clutching to do with stock gears and big tires,but I doubt it will be hard to drive.

It is an aftermarket widebody,but its been warmed over quite a bit from the stock Mariah widebody kit.The side and rear skirts are custom,the hood is one-off and the wing is no longer made.It took almost 3 years and about 6 sessions to do it all.I just got done paying it all off.....painters make a killing here in CA,but I personally hate the work,so I choose to have someone else do it.Except for the paint and engine shortblock build,I did all my own work on the rest of the car.

My suspension is far from stock,and its going to take another step forward pretty soon.It handles very well,like a big Miata.Its still pretty light,lighter than a 2nd gen turbo anyways.Currently,its the basic factory systems with 175lb springs,Tokiko shock,swaybars,poly bushings,a custom rack and pinion steering system,12" front brakes and 10" rears and 225-17 and 245-17 Falken tires.
Future mods will be a full 2nd gen front subframe with aluminum components,and a Ford 8.8" rearend......this is in prep for a 20B swap.If I can crack the stock 20B ECU so itll run and smog with a 5speed tranny and not the factory auto.
For now,300HP,modest torque,20MPG and smog legality is just right for AutoX and daily driving.Im expecting it to be a monster if the 20B goes in,Ill have to wait and see about that...heres a few more pics for you.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/rentalguy/DSC01408.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/rentalguy/DSC01386.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/rentalguy/DSC02046.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/rentalguy/DSC02081.jpg

Those gear ratios sound fine,and the rotary actually makes pretty decent torque....a lot more than a Zuki engine anyways.As I said before,it'd probably be best to stick with the heavy stock flywheel to enhance lowend performance.Youll likely have some clutching to do with stock gears and big tires,but I doubt it will be hard to drive.




are you just guessing or u are certain a rotar has more torque?

IMO rotors are really no good offroad to tepramental and no go until atleast 3000rpm

i know a rotary has more torque than the sammi 4 banger! As long as u know what your doing you wont have any problems. i have heard a few people use them in there rig and love them. you just gotta know more than most people do about them. i would rather have to rebuild a rotary than a piston engine any day.

I'm Surprised That Rotozuk Hasn't Surfaced. He Could Answer All Your Questions

yeah im suprised he hasnt chimed in.

I am not rotozuk but I have a rotary powered samurai in CA but I can't pass smog. Don't really care too. But I have some information. So... Check this site. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/1261/index3.html
I think that this might help you.

very nice! thx a ton man.

are you just guessing or u are certain a rotar has more torque?

IMO rotors are really no good offroad to tepramental and no go until atleast 3000rpm


Well,even the lowliest RX-7 rotary we were offered (the 79-85 12A) made 105lbft of torque at 4000rpm,just halfway to its stock mechanical redline......stock redline is 7000,but apex chatter doesnt set in until about 8500.
The 1st gen GSL-SE 13B(which was only sold in the U.S.) proved that rotaries could make REAL lowend torque by simply juggling port volume/timing and intake tuning.That engine made a full 133lbft of torque at a mere 2700rpm and still had a factory 7000rpm redline.Thats a pretty flexible engine,and its EFI to boot.
The 2nd gen 13B that is being discussed is a direct decendant of that engine,making 146hp near redline and 138lbft of torque at 3500rpm......maybe not too much going on below that,but I cant imagine that the anemic,high strung 1.3L Samurai engine makes much torque below 3000rpms either....and it certainly cant peak out nearly 140lbft!

Basically,the way I see it.....if your used to flogging the little Zuki 4 banger like so many Samurai owners are,then the N/A rotary is a perfect choice.You can flog it the same way,but itll put out more than double the power and torque,and last a very long time,even with those sustained revs......its what they like!

Excellent link.....a few little issues with the install,but it looks like a winner.This page says it all,and backs up my statements about rotary power delivery,even with the little carbed 12A he's running....
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/1261/index3a9-4.html

are you just guessing or u are certain a rotar has more torque?

IMO rotors are really no good offroad to tepramental and no go until atleast 3000rpm

Even the lowly normally aspirated 12A has 100 ft-lbs stock compared to about 60-65 for a Sammy 1.3. However, I do agree it wouldn't be my first choice for an off-road engine.


Sean :cool:

X3 got my LWB project and a 85 gsl though its gonna get a chevy transplant

Mine's getting an HO. You must be on TorqueCentral? I have the same handle there.


Sean:cool:

dark_crawler i just puked a lil bit after i read that......anyway well the main reason im doing this is cuz its 200 bucks for almost everything so yeah i cant pass that up and i love rotarys.

I've been looking for a rotory engine to do my engine swap with and have found several turbe engines for a decent price. But you guys recomend against it this engine why? Is it more complicated? Is the wiring harder to figure out and how about the turbo stuff like wastgate blow off valve?

Nothing wrong with the turbo engines,they are mechanically the same and the wiring is the same as with a non turbo rotary.Their turbo systems arent any different from regular cars,except for being very hot.
I recommend the N/A rotaries simply becasue they are uber reliable.Turbo charged rotaries can regularly break 100K miles,but they tend to not last longer than that.Usually because of negligence or improper maintenence...but also because of the addictive nature of turbo engines.Its so very easy to crank up the power and thats when things go bad and/or wear and tear cuts longevity down significantly.
Rotaries DO NOT tolerate detonation or overheating,both of which are prominent issues with turbo/modified turbo engines.Most wrecking yard turbo rotaries are tired or already blown.Most wrecking yard N/A rotaries have engines that outlasted the chassis....see it all the time.
A 13BT would make a good offroad engine,they produce copius amounts of torque and still can be revved to the levels of the N/A rotary.The S4 makes 185HP and 185lbs torque.The S5 makes 200HP and 200lbs torque.....and thats bone stock.Another 50HP is easily obtained from bolt-ons.Ive got my S5 setup to about 300HP and its still street and smog legal,so theres a lot of potential.
They can easily break stock Samurai drivetrain components,so a turbo rotary swap will require upgrades to just about everything else.They also SUCK gas,the premium variety.N/A's love the cheapest gas you can put in them,but turbos should get premium as a safegaurd against detonation.

i know a guy with a 12a thats NA with 240+hp at the wheels... they are pretty simple but when i look at putting things in my sammi one of the many things i look for or think about are how simple are they. the more simple the less likely to mess up and if they do mess up they should be easy to fix. i dunno about chevzuki but i know that i dont consider rotarys complicated at all. If you blow an apex seal or coolant seal they will still run. he is right about the gas lol when i want to save gas i shift at 4k .....when im scooting its usually 7500 or so. kinda hard not to get on it when you have an rpm range like that. to keep is simple and easy and also a little bit better on gas im going with a 12a from a buddy for 200 bucks with all the stuff i need. i will also either find or mold a custom fan shroud so it includes the oil cooler so while im sitting it keeps things cool. if i dont do that i will run dual oil coolers. also with a 12a wiring will be simple and i will only need to add a gauge or 2. I have also heard rotaries do great in water.

A 240HP 12A has to be either a large bridgeport N/A or a turbocharged 12A...either one,thats some nice numbers for the little rotary that could.Just remember,simplicity can also be a disadvantage....If you have less parts,then failure of one of them will have a greater effect on the whole.True,rotaries will still run with a blown apex seal,but failure of just 1 seal will result in compression loss in 2 chambers,effectively cutting off a full 1/3 of the engine.And continuing to run a rotary with blown apex or water seals will just render a potentially rebuildable engine into a paperweight.

In water,just be sure that your sparkplug boots are filled with dielectric grease.Rotaries have their primary sparkplugs very low on the side of the block,so they actually are at a disadvantage in water.And since they are short,the distributor isnt very high up either,despite being at the top of the engine.

Your right,a carb'ed 12A would be very simple to wire up,if you delete all the rats nest smog gear.A couple wires for the distributor,2 for the choke hold switch and a couple gauge sending units.Even with a warmed over stock carb,the 12A is capable of 150HP without any internal mods or power adders....thats a 50% increase over stock,which shows you how much they detuned them in order to save on gas and pollution.

I just want to confirm we are in the Zook forum here right? Yes? OK.

The 12A that came out of my 82GSL weighs twice as much as the 1.6 from my Kick!

The 12A that came out of my GSL made 100hp which is 20 more than the 8 valve 1.6 and about on par with a stock 16 valve 1.6.

Consider that a two-rotor Wankel engine basically is equivalent to a 4 cylinder piston engine of twice the rated capacity. That means a 1.3 liter 13B breathes comparably to a 2.6 liter 4 cylinder piston engine. An accurate analogy for the apparent specific output and fuel consumption of a rotary as it pertains to its displacement is very simple. A Honda XR500 is said to have a 500cc engine as does a Honda CR500. Am I comparing apples with apples?

An 8 valve 1.6 will rev as far as a stock NA rotary without floating any valves and will tolerate the abuse much longer than it takes for a rotary to spit out an apex seal. Attend any all-Suzuki event for proof!

Without deeper t-case gears or doubling the t-cases in a Kick or Sammy, it is very hard to find low enough gearing for bigger tires. How does a motor that makes no power until 4000 RPM help the situation?

A rotary engine will not tolerate running hot for very long before it tells you that it was not happy. Notice I did not say "overheat", but merely "running hot". Overheating will most certainly warp the rotor housings and it really is not that hard to do. It is fairly common for heatsoak to render the starter of a big V8 motor inoperable. Heatsoak in a rotary will allow the starter to turn the engine over very rapidly without anything else happening.:p

People who tell you that a rotary has only three moving parts have never taken one apart or that is how many parts came out the exhaust when it stopped working.:flipoff2:

Now that being said, I don't dislike rotaries at all. I just think they are ill-suited to an off-road environment where the point is to crawl as slow as possible over obstacles. No ground speed means no airflow means alot of heatsoak into an engine with questionable reliability when conditions are perfect let alone in those.


Sean :cool:

I dont disagree for the most part,we all have our own experiences and opinions.Saying that all rotaries are of questionable reliability is like saying that all smallblock Chevies are bulletproof.Its just not true,and on a 20+ year old engine with an unknown past,there are just too many variables.With a fresh,professional rebuild,proper tuning and proper cooling(read:stock fan,shroud and water/oil radiators) a rotary can stay cool in all conditions.

True,rotaries are and have always meant to be,sporty engines......except maybe in a REPU or Old School wagon,heh,heh.That often leads to reliability issues due to ignorant sportscar owners and excessive "spirited" use.I agree,there are lots of other,better choices for an offroad vehicle engine.....but a rotary offroader is pretty unique,especially since there never was a factory one!