After a week of dealing with "I think so" and I'm not sure", I finally got hold of someone in CMV Enforcement that got me strait on weights and plates and stuff.
As Long as I'm Apportioned, I can plate for and haul as much weight as I want to, as long as I don't exceed 20,000 on a single axle, or 34,000 on a set of tandems.
With an apportioned plate, I fall under USDOT regs, so I could slap a 40,000 plate on a Yugo, and as long as I don't go over 20,000 on either axle, I'm legal!
The reason all those hotshots were getting popped at the scales not long ago, was they weren't apportioned. They were running state plates, or Farm plates, or RV plates.
The officer I was talking to did however give me advanced warning, that Hot shots, especially goosenecks were under close scrutiny, and I'm guaranteed to be DOT'ed quite often, just because so many of them get caught overweight on their plates, or without proper permits or whatever.
He told me just to plan on being pulled around back of every scale I cross.

Ok, stupid newbie question...

What does it mean to be Apportioned?

Whats involved in getting it?

What limitations does it set on you?

Well, I was wondering how the hotshots get away with it, but it sounds like they aren't going to for much longer.

I was talking with a customer at our shop that Washington licensed his 3500 Dodge Ram for 30,000 pounds to be legal (although probably about 9K over the factory rating on his pickup) for delivering hay with a gooseneck. His driver took an empty tank on the trailer to the other side of the state and was popped for not having a CDL. The truck/trailer/tank did not weigh more than 17,000, easily legal for a regular pickup but since it was licensed for over 26K he needed a CDL. The owner said that he took it to court and lost. He asked the judge if his wife needed a CDL to use the pickup to drive the kids around and the judge said no; crazy, isn't it?

But, being apportioned is going to mean CDL required, and commercial insurance I assume?

Well, I was wondering how the hotshots get away with it, but it sounds like they aren't going to for much longer.

I was talking with a customer at our shop that Washington licensed his 3500 Dodge Ram for 30,000 pounds to be legal (although probably about 9K over the factory rating on his pickup) for delivering hay with a gooseneck. His driver took an empty tank on the trailer to the other side of the state and was popped for not having a CDL. The truck/trailer/tank did not weigh more than 17,000, easily legal for a regular pickup but since it was licensed for over 26K he needed a CDL. The owner said that he took it to court and lost. He asked the judge if his wife needed a CDL to use the pickup to drive the kids around and the judge said no; crazy, isn't it?
I'v tried too tell every one, But ANY GD trailer over 10k and you need CDL'S:flipoff2:

I've had my Dodge 3500 registered for 40K pounds since '03. :) I could get a ticket for no CDL but not being over weight.

Apportionment is how the different states collect their road use taxes. When you apply for your IRP (apportioned) Plates, you fill out an application form, and check what states you plan on running in. If it's your first time, the application has a mileage by state estimate page, and you are charged by your estimated mileage per state. Every quarter, you fill out a state mileage report, with every mile you've run, and in which states. (You WILL be audited on this, so no funny business!!!) You submit this report to the IRP office, Along with your fuel reciepts, and they calculate how much of your fuel taxes go to which states, and pay the different states. If you come in under your estimated mileage, you'll get a refund. If you're over, you'll get a bill.
After your first year, you'll use your previous year's mileage as your estimate.
If during the course of the year, you wish to add states to your Apportionment card, (Bingo Card) You can do this through the IRP office, and there's usually a small fee for each state you want to add.
Do NOT operate in a state you're not Apportioned for!!!! If you get caught, the DOT will own your wallet. If you have to pass through a state you're not Apportined for, contact that state's permit office, and buy a single trip permit. Do this before you cross the state line.
The above text is part of a manuscript for a book that I'm writing for owner operators and new truck drivers. I've posted it here to answer a specific question. This text may NOT be re-printed, or reproduced in any manner without the Author's specific written permission.
There are some criteria to be met for apportionment. You must have a USDOT Authority number, and you must have the proper insurances in place.
Apportioned plates will cost up to $4,000 depending on which state you're based out of, how much weight you're plated for, and how many states you plan on operating in.
You must carry $1,000,000 in auto Liability, 1,000,000 in general liability, and 100,000 in cargo Liability.
The best price I've been quoted so far is $6,800 per year.
You must have a Class A CDL.
While the DOT won't harrass your wife about driving the pickup without the trailer, your insurance won't cover her, unless you have a separate auto liability policy, often called "bobtail" Insurance.
Reason being, your commercial provider can't arbitrarily reduce their liability limits to cover "just a regular pickup truck". That truck still falls under the limits of the one million dollar auto liability, and one million dollar general libility. So, if your wife were to go skidding through an intersection, and wipe out a school bus, your insurance company would still be on the hook for up to two million dollars, not the normal 20/20/40 that you'd have on a regular pickup truck.
This information comes from Natalie @ C.M.Brown and associates.

Do you have a number for the IL state police CMV office? I have a few questions Id like to ask them as well. Thanks.

(217)782-6267 Option 1, option 1, and speak to officer Ashbrook, or Sgt. Beasley.

With an apportioned plate, I fall under USDOT regs, so I could slap a 40,000 plate on a Yugo, and as long as I don't go over 20,000 on either axle, I'm legal!

It is somewhat more complicated than that though, you still cannot exceed the GWVR or GAWR or max tire load rating no matter what weight you are "plated" for. You are welcome to attempt running a scale overweight in any one of these areas and report back though:D

(217)782-6267 Option 1, option 1, and speak to officer Ashbrook, or Sgt. Beasley.


Thanks. Hopefully they can give me some straight answers on my setup and situation.

with hd2500 or 3500 towing tag trailers, including triaxels, i've never bothered stopping at a scale. maybe they're just focused on goosenecks.

It is somewhat more complicated than that though, you still cannot exceed the GWVR or GAWR or max tire load rating no matter what weight you are "plated" for. You are welcome to attempt running a scale overweight in any one of these areas and report back though:D

Actually, he is correct. The DOT doesn't worry about anything but the 20K pound per axle thing. I got a ticket and one of the violations was for being over weight, until he figured out my truck was registered for 40K. He had to take that one back! However, I was over the GVCWR for the truck and he couldn't do anything about it.

I guess I have been lucky. I've got a CDT 2500 with 3500 spring and axle convertion, I pull a tandem gooseneck an can fit three jeeps on it. I never stop at the scales! I do have a clas A CDL. I mainly run northwest Florida and Alabama. Does the "Not for Hire" sticker let me bypass the scales?

Actually, he is correct. The DOT doesn't worry about anything but the 20K pound per axle thing. I got a ticket and one of the violations was for being over weight, until he figured out my truck was registered for 40K. He had to take that one back! However, I was over the GVCWR for the truck and he couldn't do anything about it.

Roadside stop or through the scales? I have been red-lighted more than once at the scales when hauling close to maximum registered load and they scale man has came out and checked axle weights and tire capacity and have been popped once on tire capacity.

Roadside stop from the DOT. I can see the tire rating as the next step.

Roadside stop from the DOT. I can see the tire rating as the next step.

Trust me, you do not want to have a transport cop at either the scale or a roadside stop decide to check things like GWVR or GAWR or max tire load rating and find that you are exceeding them. You would not like the results...




"Apportionable Vehicle" means any vehicle, (except recreational vehicles, vehicles displaying restricted plates, city pick up and delivery vehicles, buses used in transportation of chartered parties, and Government-owned vehicles) used or intended for use in two or more member jurisdictions that allocate or proportionally register vehicles and is used for the transportation of persons for hire or designed, used or maintained primarily for the transportation of property and:

* is a power unit having two axles and a gross vehicle weight or registered gross vehicle weight in excess of 11,794 kilograms or 26,000 pounds; or
* a power unit having three or more axles, regardless of weight; or
* used in combination, when the weight of such combination exceeds 11,794 kilograms or 26,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.

Trucks and truck tractors, and combinations of vehicles having a gross vehicle weight of 11,794 kilograms or 26,000 pounds or less and buses used in transportation of chartered parties may be proportionally registered at the option of the registrant. (IRP manual – Article II – 204)

Minimum gross vehicle weight (GVW) is 5500 kilograms in Canada (exception British Columbia is 2500 kg) and for the United States is 26000 pounds.

Apportioned Registration Does Not:

* Waive or exempt a truck operator from obtaining authority from any Province/State in which the apportioned vehicle travels, or
* Waive or replace the requirements of the International Fuel Tax Agreement (IFTA), or
* Allow registrants to exceed the maximum length, width, height or axle limitations, or
* Exempt a carrier from filing the necessary proof of liability coverage in each Province/State where required.



The thing to keep in mind is that the 20K single/34K tandem carrying axle weight limits that were initially posted is a legislative limit imposed for maximum loads on axles or axle groups which have ratings that EXCEED the legislative limits. If you have a tandem set of 10K axles on your trailer you cannot load up the trailer so that it has a maximum load of 34K on this axle group.

A good example of this would be a Tractor Semi-Trailer combination with tandem drive and tandem carrying axles. For the sake of this example lets assume that the tractor has a steer axle rated at 16K, tandem drives rated at 46K and the tandem carrying axles on the trailer rated at 45K for a combination manufacturers rated weight of 107,000#'s. In my jurisdiction the legislative limits on this combinations axle weights would be 12,125#'s on the steer and 37,477#'s for both the drive and carrying axles for a maximum legislative weight limit of 87,080#'s which would be the maximum GVW you could gross without a overweight permit. With an overweight permit you can exceed the legislative limits but not the "rated capacity" of any component without being subject to fines and points assessed against your NSC Carrier Profile.


...the load shall not exceed the rated capacity of any component of the truck or trailer on which the load is being carried...

...the load shall not exceed the rated capacity of any component of the truck or trailer on which the load is being carried...

I asked specifically about this, and was told it didn't matter. Maybe this is one of the things different north of the border.

Where in the FMCSR is that printed?

Trust me, you do not want to have a transport cop at either the scale or a roadside stop decide to check things like GWVR or GAWR or max tire load rating and find that you are exceeding them. You would not like the results......[/I]


I did have a 'transport cop' (DOT agent) stop me. I wasn't over the tire rating, or the axle rating (20K lbs)...I was over the GVCWR for the truck as stated by Dodge, but he took back the ticket he wrote me after he saw my registration.

The biggest problem is nobody knows what the real law is because each fucking state has their own law, which is gay because this is a federal license.

I've been told, that regardless of how much you license for, you can't go above the GVWR/GCVWR.

Which is why I have considered just building my own. A 2009 Travis Special. Since I am the manufacturer, I can set my own GVWR/GCVWR and get around that "problem". At least that idea sounds good in my head.

Hahahahaha...let me know how it works!

I did have a 'transport cop' (DOT agent) stop me. I wasn't over the tire rating, or the axle rating (20K lbs)...I was over the GVCWR for the truck as stated by Dodge, but he took back the ticket he wrote me after he saw my registration.

The biggest problem is nobody knows what the real law is because each fucking state has their own law, which is gay because this is a federal license.

Until the man weighs you on a set of certified scales there is not a ticket he can write (and have stick) related to weight. There is no enforcement based on manufacturers GCVWR as only the GAWR and GVWR are required to be placed on vehicle information labels.


The States are a bigger mess in this regard than we are but there are 5 simple rules to follow:

1) Do not exceed your licensed "Plated" weight.
2) Do not exceed your GAWR.
3) Do not exceed your GVWR.
4) Do not exceed your tire capacity.
5) Know the laws of the jurisdiction(s) you are operating in.

If Camarogenius follows these rules he will not have any problems as long as he is licensed and insured properly and follows the rest of the rules regarding hours of service etc.

However I would caution him to read sections such as 658.17, especially subpart (f) and think about things a little bit more before he decides to license, insure and carry 40,000# in his Yugo. Hopefully he decides to get a 30K/40' gooseneck and gets plates for around 41.5K on his Dodge.

so am i likely to get popped hauling my trail rig on a 14k gooseneck behind my dually with my basic class c?

isnt the issue 'commercial' versus 'private'? i can not find anything that explicitly states hauling for compensation versus not when dealing with gooseneck flatbeds, only 5th wheel travel trailers.

if i can show that i personally own the tow rig and trail rig, is that sufficient for non-commercial and my class C?

so am i likely to get popped hauling my trail rig on a 14k gooseneck behind my dually with my basic class c?

isnt the issue 'commercial' versus 'private'? i can not find anything that explicitly states hauling for compensation versus not when dealing with gooseneck flatbeds, only 5th wheel travel trailers.

if i can show that i personally own the tow rig and trail rig, is that sufficient for non-commercial and my class C?
Any Combined vehicle with a gross weight of 26,001 pounds or more requires a class A CDL.

However I would caution him to read sections such as 658.17, especially subpart (f) and think about things a little bit more before he decides to license, insure and carry 40,000# in his Yugo. Hopefully he decides to get a 30K/40' gooseneck and gets plates for around 41.5K on his Dodge.


That's the part I don't understand.. In DE we have to plate our trailer by weight also. Am I to pay twice, once to tag the trailer for 30k, and again to tag the truck for the combo 40k? Everyone who talks about taging the power unit for the combo weight - are you guys not paying weight on your trailer?

How many folks on pirate are hot shotting?I have honeslty been thinking of going the route for weekend and p/t work I know it will require a 350/3500 or larger truck and a good sized gooseneck.

That's the part I don't understand.. In DE we have to plate our trailer by weight also. Am I to pay twice, once to tag the trailer for 30k, and again to tag the truck for the combo 40k? Everyone who talks about taging the power unit for the combo weight - are you guys not paying weight on your trailer?
This is what I'm trying to explain. Under I.R.P. (Apportionment) The rules are completely different.
For private use, or for a state issued plate, then yes you will. Under I.R.P., all weight is attached to the power unit. My trailer plate will cost me $19.00.
Read my earlier post on apportionment.
The apportioned plate is attached to the power unit. A non Motorized trailer isn't taxed or regulated, since it can't conduct interstate commerce without an attached power unit.
This is the difference between dealing with a state, and with USDOT.
In-state, The Tax and enforcement codes are a whole different animal.
Once you go Apportioned, the rules change.
That's why there's two different Authority classifications. I will have to have a USDOT Authority number, as well as an Illinois ICC Number. The Illinois Commerce Commision Number gives me the authority to haul freight point to point within the state of Illinois. Without that, I cant move freight in Illinois unless it crosses a state line.
There's alot more I could post here, but I'm afraid it would do more to confuse you, than help you.

So if you ARENT under the IRP regulations, and I want to tow a 20k gooseneck with a one ton dually, it was always my understanding that I could plate my truck for 12k (IL "D" plates) and the gooseneck with 20k (IL "TG" plates) and be good to go. Ive never heard of "combo" tagging the truck for 32k, from any DMV in Illinois. Am I just misreading this, or is that correct?

Hmm after readin more indepth I must say I am a bit confused myself and i drive delivery trucks for a living with class A's.Now for one to set themself up they would need an appointed plate for the tow rig a USDOT number as well as number and permits for the state(s) they wish to or need to operate in.You can get a tag over thats over your manufactures weight limits but not to exceed 20K per axle so I could pull 40K with a 350/3500 that is over the recomended limit of combined truck and load,right?Now I do understand they various weight ratings of tags and how they would price them,but did I read right when you said you need to overlap tags?Insurace would have to be for 1M auto,1M general and 100K for cargo with the cheapest found being 6.8K do not exceed tire limits,gawr or gvwr and certainly not tag limts.

Am I on the right path of just confusing myself over something simple and anyone got the numbers of TN,GA,AL,LA,KY,VA,WV,FL,SC,NC,MS alright I am gonna pray someone can make sense of this post...

How many folks on pirate are hot shotting?I have honeslty been thinking of going the route for weekend and p/t work I know it will require a 350/3500 or larger truck and a good sized gooseneck.
Fair warning. The cost of Compliance and Insurance, and the time involved with maintaining the proper records for compliance and taxation make it all but impossible to break even in a "part time and weekends" capacity. You'll have the same compliance and insurance costs as I will, and you'll be limited as to the time you can spend making a profit.
I've been running Profit and Loss projections, and anticipated expense reports for weeks, Just making sure I can afford to make this jump. Your insurance is going to cost you in the neighborhood of $8000.00 per year, and your plates are going to cost between $2,000 and $4,000 per year, depending on how you plate. Add on a truck and trailer payment, and do the math.
According to my expense model, it's going to cost me $63.00 every day, just to get out of bed in the morning. This is before I buy a drop of fuel, or put anything in my pocket. Also figure you're going to need 60 days operating capital up front, including payroll. Generally, you'll be running on a schedule of "Net pay 30 days from reciept of invoice" with most of your customers.
Figure 3 days for the mail to deliver your invoices to your customer, another 3 days for the post office to get you your check, toss in a couple weekends, and a holiday, and remember that Accounts payable is NEVER in a hurry to cut a check on time, and you're looking at 45 days easy before you see any income. Add a two week cushion, just for peace of mind, and bingo, you're at 60 days before you recieve payment on a load.
Just like Mr. Miagi said:" Karate no, okay. Karate yes, Okay. Karate Guess so, Squash!! Like grape!"

So if you ARENT under the IRP regulations, and I want to tow a 20k gooseneck with a one ton dually, it was always my understanding that I could plate my truck for 12k (IL "D" plates) and the gooseneck with 20k (IL "TG" plates) and be good to go. Ive never heard of "combo" tagging the truck for 32k, from any DMV in Illinois. Am I just misreading this, or is that correct?
That's the difference in being apportioned. But if your truck, trailer, and load weighs over 26,000 you need a class A CDL. You're already in business, so you've already got your general liability policy, unless you want to run your truck as a separate corp. I'll PM you in a minute.

Hmm after readin more indepth I must say I am a bit confused myself and i drive delivery trucks for a living with class A's.Now for one to set themself up they would need an appointed plate for the tow rig a USDOT number as well as number and permits for the state(s) they wish to or need to operate in.You can get a tag over thats over your manufactures weight limits but not to exceed 20K per axle so I could pull 40K with a 350/3500 that is over the recomended limit of combined truck and load,right?Now I do understand they various weight ratings of tags and how they would price them,but did I read right when you said you need to overlap tags?Insurace would have to be for 1M auto,1M general and 100K for cargo with the cheapest found being 6.8K do not exceed tire limits,gawr or gvwr and certainly not tag limts.

Am I on the right path of just confusing myself over something simple and anyone got the numbers of TN,GA,AL,LA,KY,VA,WV,FL,SC,NC,MS alright I am gonna pray someone can make sense of this post...
20,000 per single axle, or 34,000 on a set of tandems, which is defined as a pair of two axles less than 10'2" apart.
It all sounds confusing, I know. For the numbers you want, either spend some time with google, or swing by the truckstop and grab last year's motor carrier atlas. It'll cost you less than 10 bucks, and will have all of the numbers you need in the front section.
If you're planning on running across state lines, you really need to be apportioned. you can buy single trip pemits, and run on state plates, but the added cost of those permits will chew you up pretty quick. Just get in touch with your state's IRP division, and they can clue you in to everything you need to know.
If you're driving a truck, sit down with the person in your company that handles compliance, and they can give you a run down of how it works, as long as you're not going to try to take their customers.

That's the difference in being apportioned..


Camarogenius - this is very helpuful. thank you.

one more question. I am not apportioned and don't do commerce. I have a 2500 dodge. The gvwr is 8800, and the gawr is ~4500 front and ~6000 rear. Can I weigh ~10500 (assuming I have the tire, and the balance is correct) or am I truly limited to the gvwr?

Camarogenius - this is very helpuful. thank you.

one more question. I am not apportioned and don't do commerce. I have a 2500 dodge. The gvwr is 8800, and the gawr is ~4500 front and ~6000 rear. Can I weigh ~10500 (assuming I have the tire, and the balance is correct) or am I truly limited to the gvwr?For private use, you can weigh 10,5, as long as you're plated for it. most regular pickup plates are only 8,000 depending on your state. you may need to go up a plate. In Illinois, that would be a "D" plate, good for up to 12,000. That's what most farmers around here run on their pickups. You would then have to plate your trailer for whatever weight it was going to haul.

Any Combined vehicle with a gross weight of 26,001 pounds or more requires a class A CDL.

sorry to keep hijacking, but i'm gettnig conflicting info from various sites.

from http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.


from http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/sec1_a.htm#who

A commercial motor vehicle is a motor vehicle or combination of vehicles designed or used for either the transportation of persons for compensation or property and:

* Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.
* Tows any vehicle with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more.
* Tows more than one vehicle or a trailer bus.
* Has three or more axles (excludes three axle vehicles weighing 6,000 pounds or less gross).
* Is any vehicle (bus, farm labor vehicle, general public paratransit vehicle, etc.) designed, used, or maintained to carry more than 10 passengers including the driver, for hire or profit, or is used by any nonprofit organization or group.
* Transports hazardous materials requiring placarding.*
* Transports hazardous wastes (Health and Safety Code §§25115 and 25117).*


so the Feds are telling me that I'd be okay as its simply over 26,001 lbs or not.

However the CA site is kind of vague in that the list does not state inclusive or not, so if my trailer is 14k GVWR, then I'd meet the second line condition even though I dont meet the first. especially confusing to me is that the CA list includes criteria for Class C Commercial in it making me read it as 'if you meet one criteria, then you need a CDL'

I'm probably over thinking it though

If you meet one of the criteria, then you're in. Now realize, that pretty much includes every gooseneck, and almost every bumper pull larger than a single car hauler, or generic 16 foot tandem trailer in the country. You can plate your trailer for 10,000 and be okay, but if you get caught over the 10k limit, you'll get an overweight ticket, and could also get a driving without a liscense ticket as well. Now, most cops don't go around harrassing trailers, they've usually got teenagers in riced out hondas to use for their quota, but, you are still walking a line, especially in California. Most troopers won't bother with you, but CMV enforcement has been on a nation wide crackdown on Goosenecks, for reasons we're discussing here.
As you can tell by reading this topic, as well as others on similar subjects, most folks, don't really know what the laws are, and therefore most are in violation of them. This offers the DOT a target rich environment.

so am i likely to get popped hauling my trail rig on a 14k gooseneck behind my dually with my basic class c?

In CA for personal use - here it is simply:

Class C can tow any tag trailer up to 10K GVWR and GN/5er up to 15K GVWR. go over either of those and you need a Non Commercial Class A.

Keep in mind those are GVWRs for the trailer, meaning that if the trailer is rated at more tha those numbers you need the Class A to haul it Empty or loaded.

Classes are for weight basically, and CDL vs non Com are if you are paid to haul or not


:usa:

In CA for personal use - here it is simply:

Class C can tow any tag trailer up to 10K GVWR and GN/5er up to 15K GVWR. go over either of those and you need a Non Commercial Class A.

Keep in mind those are GVWRs for the trailer, meaning that if the trailer is rated at more tha those numbers you need the Class A to haul it Empty or loaded.

Classes are for weight basically, and CDL vs non Com are if you are paid to haul or not


:usa:

that is what i figured, but the ca site only lister travel trailers, no mention of gooseneck flatdecks

If you just haul your toys on the weekends, you'll be ok. If you do get pulled over and the officer asks if you won any prize or money say "NO" because then your toy, your truck, and trailer become income or a business. The cowboys around here learned the hard way, braggin to the cop about winning some money with there roping horses.

Since I'm private, for my toys I don't pull into scales. Since I only haul on weekends and usually on Holiday weekends, I've not been messed with yet. I'm waiting for my day.

Michael