Emergency Service Project in San Rafael Swell!



U4WDA and Castle Country King Crawlers 4x4 Club have organized an emergency service project in San Rafael Swell in coordination with the Price BLM Field Office. The project is in response to recent trail damage that occurred on the Devil's Racetrack OHV trail.



A group will meet in Price (details below) and caravan down to the worksite. We need to represent with as many volunteers as possible to make a strong showing with the BLM. We are requesting that a minimum of 10 workers attend to allow for completion of the project. Even if you don’t have a 4x4 for transport to the work site, meet in Price and some seats will be available for additional passengers.



When:

Saturday February 17 at 8:30 AM



Where:

Gas-n-Go in Price (104 West 100 North)



What:

Bring gloves, personal lunch and water, rakes, shovels, and handsaws (no power tools allowed)



Please attend if possible! Thanks!

While I admire and respect any and all who would take time out of their busy lives to perform this badly needed and obviously desperate service...why has this orv community been reduced to perforning "emergency" restoration anywhere?

As an example:

We've got more outlaw damage here in Michigan than the state or even the community itself can even begin to quantify...something that all of us admit is getting worse not better every day.
Yet why is it that our own orv community is up here fighting tooth and nail to prevent professionally structured and privitized maintenance service programs that would not only 100% assuredly FIX each of these violations as they occur....but effectivelymaintain these precious trails in a uniform manner on an everyday basis.

It's called "pay-to-play" folks...and while I commend and encourage everybody out there in these western states to work with these agencies and do all that they possibly can....there is a 'concept' out there which will bring compliance within our ranks much faster than our knee-jerk reactions to damage we obviously have absolutely no control over.

We will start policing ourselves when those respecting the rules are forced to PAY for those who don't....plain and simple.

Every national orv leader that I have ever talked to wishes to quickly 'change the subject' when it comes to Michigan's insistence that "environmentally responsible" wheelers 'get by' on maintaining over 3,000 miles of trails @ 16 bucks per user at the largest damn maintained trail system out there (with sticker sales FLAT for over 3 years in this state).

Now I don't know if these guys are all wishing that we send all our money into 'them' as opposed to fixing our local systems on a daily and certainly emergency basis...but it sure as heck shoots their credibility all to hell when they talk about us as being these 'great' stewards of the environment that are all about fixing what we impact at any cost.

Oh, I'm sorry....I'm not supposed to say the above or dare point out how these goofs support our local leaders in flat out embarassing the sport.....

the reason it was labeled 'emergency', is because this happened in a highly sensitive area that's watched very closely by deep pocketed, extremist greenie groups like SUWA... the BLM was in process of investigation, and very impressed with the OHV user response on a two day notice to help clean up one guys' off-trail abuse.

When the reports came back after the project took place, it was learned that there was by far much more time and effort put in to clean up and block off illegal tracks created by more specifaically ATV users' illiegal routes.

If nothing else, the big response from the fullsize OHV'ers in this was good for relations between us and the BLM and other land managers.

-Jason

That's great news about the positive reception by the BLM. I know in Colorado we have a very good working relationship with the BLM statewide and the BLM knows they can call any time they need help, but most of the time we beat them to the phone call.

I'd like to suggest the possiblity of starting a state wide UFWDA Volunteer Trail Patrol group in Utah. I started one in Colorado and we have well over 125 already trained, with another 150 waiting for training and we train all motorized rec users (ATV, dirtbike, snowmobile, 4WD). It has had a huge success rate over the last two years (and I started it in one of the least receptive OHV FS ranger districts - Boulder - and they love us!).

i hate to say it, but it seems the majority of OHV enjoying Utahns are going to sit around until their favorite destination gets closed... then, then they'll throw up their hands in protest... and might get involved.

We have many awesome numerous environmentally active fullsize 4x4, and ATV clubs, USA-ALL who does amazing things to keep land open and fight battles in court and on the capitol steps... the Utah 4Wheel Drive Association that's been around for a number of decades that is very active in projects across the state. In fact, last NPLD U4WDA hosted and organized the largest service project in the state's history for that day, with 18 U4 member 4x4 clubs rendering 250 official volunteers who put in 2000 labor hours at 10 sites around the state.

we are trying to grow and expand the membership in the U4WDA. we are a small group working with what we can to keep the Utah roads open. the numbers of members in the U4WDA and also USA-ALL, BLUE RIBBON and so on are such a small fraction of those that use OHV's... not to mention the dealers of these products who make money on our sports, and aren't giving any back to help manage and preserve lands... or educate users...

we have a long way to go to get through to people about how serious losing land here in Utah is. but in '06 the U4 doubled it's members to around 800, with a large number of great business supporting members. the greenie groups have massive funds to keep issues in court and use up our money and resources. and we can combat that with more hands to show by actions that we want our roads open. i just hope more Utahns will realize this sooner rather than later.

-Jason

I know the feeling, trust me, a hand full do the work that several of us depend on to keep areas open to drive and ride. And for that we thank everyone that wants and does get involved.

Work on partnering through MOU's with the BLM and FS. Find projects to work on together to keep areas open and to open new trails. I know Utah has one of the best recreation people at the state level in the BLM office - Patti Klein. She rocks!

Even if it is just a handfull of us working to keep trails open, it is better than none at all. USA-ALL is a great organization to get involved with, same with the Utah State 4 Wheel Drive Association.

Here are a couple of ideas I can throw out to help:
Get more motorcycle clubs involved - they want to, they just don't know how.
Work on an Memoradum of Understanding (MOU) with the BLM and FS through USA ALL. Ideas for this are to assist to keep trails open, create a responsible recreation campaign state wide (see www.staythetrail.org for an example), come up with ideas to fund areas to keep them open like a trial ride.
Work on getting a trail patrol unit in place locally or state wide. From experience doing this state wide takes about a year to prep and partnering with the agencies before you can launch. Locally is much faster and Carla Boucher from UFWDA can help you with the training and launch. People who live in Colorado know that there is a trail patrol watching, and our trail patrol is identified with a sticker and are volunteers of the FS, BLM and Colorado State Parks. The basic premis of the trail patrol is to observe and report back to the law enforcement officer what was seen out on the trail - no interaction because you never know who's packing a gun. Keeps patrollers safe that way. It may not sound like much, but it does work, and its not a bunch of vigilantes on the trail - training takes 2-3 hours before you become certified to patrol. And once trained you can patrol nationally. Its all explained in the training process, and like I said, call Carla, she created the program and does the training for United.
Colorado is not the only place we've had success with the trail patrol program, I know that Carla trained a group in Wynoka, OK, and the town is very thankful for it (its an ATV town close to the sand dunes).
Also, work on being proactive vs. reactive to the greenie efforts. And it never hurts to throw a monkey wrench in their efforts to close areas.

"...Also, work on being proactive vs. reactive to the greenie efforts...."

Great suggestions (every one of them) yet I have a simple question regarding the above:

If greenies are concerned with closing down trails....and we are concerned with our image as related to combating this....isn't being "proactive" in regards to our own funding of these trail systems actually of the utmost of importance?

I mention this because some of the same national organizations that you often quote as being on the front lines of what we'll call it "pay-to-play"....seemingly run interference for groups that aren't the least bit 'proactive' when it comes to properly funding some of our largest riding areas or even so much as ACTING if they will do so in the future.

Again, I agree with your suggestions and support your premise....yet isn't showing not only these greenies but indeed the rest of the world; that every single one of us DO willingly have our wallets out...probably just as important an issue as any of those brought forward above?

(Example):

The most recent Michigan orv group representative proposal has suggested that 'subsidized training programs' receive triple the amount of percentage funding received in any funding increase while law enforcement, maintenance, restoration and every other percentage based funding program program receive LOWER percentages out of any total increased funding pie.

Now if our national orv organizations aren't willing to denounce issues such as this openly and honestly....who in the heck is when all talk of actually funding the resources we are stewards over...is locked up behind cloosed doors by people that they know very well and continually defend no matter what the situation?

Is being 'proactive' the buzz word here ONLY if it doesn't involve those already caught with their hand in the pie or embarrasingly involve their 'buddies' running cover for them?

I'll even go further to say that when proper funding for our systems is put in place on a sustainable basis using pay-to-play as the catalyst....if/when the time comes that fine volunteers such as the topic indicate above cannot be found on a regular knee-jerk basis....the community is less likely to suffer a black-eye because of it through their already exhibited willingness to pay for their own when policing these same people each and every time is deemed impossible.(which 'wonder upon wonders' promotes just that as these acts finally start getting into our own pockets directly and the whole mess finally becomes 'personal'.....).:mad3:

Great suggestions (every one of them) yet I have a simple question regarding the above:

If greenies are concerned with closing down trails....and we are concerned with our image as related to combating this....isn't being "proactive" in regards to our own funding of these trail systems actually of the utmost of importance?
YES! however funding also needs to va available to maintain the trail systems, which can be done in a number of ways, for example: club adoption, consessionair (which I'm not a fan of, but it is an option), grants.

I mention this because some of the same national organizations that you often quote as being on the front lines of what we'll call it "pay-to-play"....seemingly run interference for groups that aren't the least bit 'proactive' when it comes to properly funding some of our largest riding areas or even so much as ACTING if they will do so in the future.

Again, I agree with your suggestions and support your premise....yet isn't showing not only these greenies but indeed the rest of the world; that every single one of us DO willingly have our wallets out...probably just as important an issue as any of those brought forward above? Yes!

(Example):

The most recent Michigan orv group representative proposal has suggested that 'subsidized training programs' receive triple the amount of percentage funding received in any funding increase while law enforcement, maintenance, restoration and every other percentage based funding program program receive LOWER percentages out of any total increased funding pie. I'm not familiar with what is occuring in Michigan, nor do I work for any of the national organizations so I strongly suggest you bring the issue to their table to discuss, however how are you supposed to correct an action or reaction from the general OHV user if they are not properly educated on what the right thing to do actually is? You can't punish a theif if the only thing he has ever known is to be a theif and he has never been taught right from wrong because he wouldn't understand what the punishment is for. Same concept - you can't change a behavior if the behavior was never taught as being incorrect. Now I'm not sure how substatial the funding shifts are, but there are always alternative means to fund areas that are receiving budget cuts - that is why it is important to partner with the land managers and find out if corporate donations are acceptable, if trail adoptions are acceptable, if creating a volunteer trail patrol for an area is acceptable. And if it is not, your need to pursuade them that those are acceptable.


Now if our national orv organizations aren't willing to denounce issues such as this openly and honestly....who in the heck is when all talk of actually funding the resources we are stewards over...is locked up behind cloosed doors by people that they know very well and continually defend no matter what the situation?
Then maybe it needs to be presented in a differnt light if the issue is as large as you are stating. However there are MUCH bigger issues than budget cuts at the moment on our public lands nationally - the biggest is the implementation of the National OHV Rule. In comparison, budget cuts won't mean much if the trail doesn't show up on the Motor Vehicle Use Map (MVUM) because then the trail does not exist=illegal trail.....and the catch: to get it back on the map you most likely have to go through NEPA. With that said, I smell a rat with your situation: budget cuts will be utilized to close an area in conjunction with the implementation of the National OHV Rule. Your state and local organizations need to write letters, voice concerns, and become the squeaky wheel. Trust me, if approached appropriately the land managers will listen. What they don't like is to listen to complaints by an organization/individual because that turns them off. But if you voice your concern and come up with a possible solution you will get results.

Is being 'proactive' the buzz word here ONLY if it doesn't involve those already caught with their hand in the pie or embarrasingly involve their 'buddies' running cover for them?
Nope. There is more than one way to resolve the Michigan issue. Being proactive is always better than reactive. More issues are solved in a positive manner, more is accomplished, and a better outcome is achieved; even if you have to compromise.

I'll even go further to say that when proper funding for our systems is put in place on a sustainable basis using pay-to-play as the catalyst....if/when the time comes that fine volunteers such as the topic indicate above cannot be found on a regular knee-jerk basis....the community is less likely to suffer a black-eye because of it through their already exhibited willingness to pay for their own when policing these same people each and every time is deemed impossible.(which 'wonder upon wonders' promotes just that as these acts finally start getting into our own pockets directly and the whole mess finally becomes 'personal'.....).:mad3:
The only time I will ever endorse a fee base situation is if the funds collected from the fees for an area are 100% put back on the ground. If and only if those funds can reach the ground in trail maintence and new trail creation is it only acceptable in my opinion. If those funds go to salaries for law enforcement or other ranger activities the program needs to change. We don't go to public lands pay-to-play areas to fund someone's salary.

The only time I will ever endorse a fee base situation is if the funds collected from the fees for an area are 100% put back on the ground. If and only if those funds can reach the ground in trail maintence and new trail creation is it only acceptable in my opinion. If those funds go to salaries for law enforcement or other ranger activities the program needs to change. We don't go to public lands pay-to-play areas to fund someone's salary.

i disagree with this, there needs to be some sort of a balance... we have two officers that police the biggest area out here in the SLC area.. where tons and tons of illegal ATV routes are made each week.. all it takes is one set of tracks, and in less than a week you have a trail established enough to look like its been there for years... thus, uneducated users will travel, further causing more problems...

there needs to be more money for education, policing/law enforcment, AND for preservation of the land.

look at it from the BLM or FS's point of view. if you have an area, let's say one specific canyon that gets so much OHV use that you can't stay on top of closing all the illegal user created routes each week, are you going to want to spend the time and money to create more trails? more trails that will have 100 spur trails by the end of the first month? which means more time and man power for closures, maintainance, law enforcment... that's not how they think... they see giving more trails as more of a reward than a solution to the problem of over-crouded OHV areas.

there needs to be more tax/donations on/from the dealerships who sell ATV's/dirtbikes that goes 100% to these issues.. i think states should step in with a mandatory class that teaches everyone proper trail ettiquette/safety, and responsible riding. i ask whats more damaging, a concealed weapons permit holder, or the average joe on a quad? i say the guy on the quad will have a greater impact on us all... somewhat apples to oranges, but think about it..

-Jason

While I admire and respect any and all who would take time out of their busy lives to perform this badly needed and obviously desperate service...why has this orv community been reduced to perforning "emergency" restoration anywhere?

As an example:

We've got more outlaw damage here in Michigan than the state or even the community itself can even begin to quantify...something that all of us admit is getting worse not better every day.
Yet why is it that our own orv community is up here fighting tooth and nail to prevent professionally structured and privitized maintenance service programs that would not only 100% assuredly FIX each of these violations as they occur....but effectivelymaintain these precious trails in a uniform manner on an everyday basis.

It's called "pay-to-play" folks...and while I commend and encourage everybody out there in these western states to work with these agencies and do all that they possibly can....there is a 'concept' out there which will bring compliance within our ranks much faster than our knee-jerk reactions to damage we obviously have absolutely no control over.

We will start policing ourselves when those respecting the rules are forced to PAY for those who don't....plain and simple.

Every national orv leader that I have ever talked to wishes to quickly 'change the subject' when it comes to Michigan's insistence that "environmentally responsible" wheelers 'get by' on maintaining over 3,000 miles of trails @ 16 bucks per user at the largest damn maintained trail system out there (with sticker sales FLAT for over 3 years in this state).

Now I don't know if these guys are all wishing that we send all our money into 'them' as opposed to fixing our local systems on a daily and certainly emergency basis...but it sure as heck shoots their credibility all to hell when they talk about us as being these 'great' stewards of the environment that are all about fixing what we impact at any cost.

Oh, I'm sorry....I'm not supposed to say the above or dare point out how these goofs support our local leaders in flat out embarassing the sport.....

We've already got pay-to-play out here in the west. It's called service. We pay to keep our public lands open by volunteering to maintain trails, educate OHV users, and repair damage when necessary.

I actually like the idea of paying a professional entity to do this type of work. If we could figure out some way to do it, I think it's an intriguing idea.

As it is, we feel that people are more involved and invested with land use causes when it's their labor and sweat that's keeping an area open.

I know the feeling, trust me, a hand full do the work that several of us depend on to keep areas open to drive and ride. And for that we thank everyone that wants and does get involved.

Work on partnering through MOU's with the BLM and FS. Find projects to work on together to keep areas open and to open new trails. I know Utah has one of the best recreation people at the state level in the BLM office - Patti Klein. She rocks!

Even if it is just a handfull of us working to keep trails open, it is better than none at all. USA-ALL is a great organization to get involved with, same with the Utah State 4 Wheel Drive Association.

Here are a couple of ideas I can throw out to help:
Get more motorcycle clubs involved - they want to, they just don't know how.
Work on an Memoradum of Understanding (MOU) with the BLM and FS through USA ALL. Ideas for this are to assist to keep trails open, create a responsible recreation campaign state wide (see www.staythetrail.org for an example), come up with ideas to fund areas to keep them open like a trial ride.
Work on getting a trail patrol unit in place locally or state wide. From experience doing this state wide takes about a year to prep and partnering with the agencies before you can launch. Locally is much faster and Carla Boucher from UFWDA can help you with the training and launch. People who live in Colorado know that there is a trail patrol watching, and our trail patrol is identified with a sticker and are volunteers of the FS, BLM and Colorado State Parks. The basic premis of the trail patrol is to observe and report back to the law enforcement officer what was seen out on the trail - no interaction because you never know who's packing a gun. Keeps patrollers safe that way. It may not sound like much, but it does work, and its not a bunch of vigilantes on the trail - training takes 2-3 hours before you become certified to patrol. And once trained you can patrol nationally. Its all explained in the training process, and like I said, call Carla, she created the program and does the training for United.
Colorado is not the only place we've had success with the trail patrol program, I know that Carla trained a group in Wynoka, OK, and the town is very thankful for it (its an ATV town close to the sand dunes).
Also, work on being proactive vs. reactive to the greenie efforts. And it never hurts to throw a monkey wrench in their efforts to close areas.

Very good points. We do need to do a better job of getting MOU's with all the districts and BLM offices in the state. Right now, we only have MOU's with the places we work with most frequently.

We do have a statewide Trail Patrol program based on Carla's work. I've been a little dissapointed with how it's been implemented, but there are a few very active TP groups in Utah. I believe the TP leadership is working on restructuring their management to be more effective, and we definitely support them in that effort.

Many great points are being made here. If we could only get our fellow users to turn their rants and raves into action, we'd eliminate the problem.

LOL! You must see this!

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LOL! You must see this!

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...

Dont forget to see http://freewebpostcards.com/show.exe !





Dont forget to see http://freewebpostcards.com/show.exe !

The only time I will ever endorse a fee base situation is if the funds collected from the fees for an area are 100% put back on the ground. If and only if those funds can reach the ground in trail maintence and new trail creation is it only acceptable in my opinion. If those funds go to salaries for law enforcement or other ranger activities the program needs to change. We don't go to public lands pay-to-play areas to fund someone's salary.

i disagree with this, there needs to be some sort of a balance... we have two officers that police the biggest area out here in the SLC area.. where tons and tons of illegal ATV routes are made each week.. all it takes is one set of tracks, and in less than a week you have a trail established enough to look like its been there for years... thus, uneducated users will travel, further causing more problems...
look at it from the BLM or FS's point of view. if you have an area, let's say one specific canyon that gets so much OHV use that you can't stay on top of closing all the illegal user created routes each week, are you going to want to spend the time and money to create more trails? more trails that will have 100 spur trails by the end of the first month? which means more time and man power for closures, maintainance, law enforcment... that's not how they think... they see giving more trails as more of a reward than a solution to the problem of over-crouded OHV areas.-Jason

I refrained from replying to these two opinions (which I both respect) as I wanted to see if anybody else other than Jason saw this argument as being probably the most important one we have in regards to our future.

While I respect the fact that many hold back here for the simple reason that they are tired of the indecision involving these issues and that they maybe just don't have the time....could somebody please answer one simple question for me here?

HAS ANYBODY IN THE HISTORY OF MOTORIZED RECREATION EVER WITNESSED ANY ORV LEADER (you know, the people we send money into every year) COME DOWN ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER OF JASON'S EMBARRASINGLY BASIC PREMISE ABOVE?

I'm hoping that YJgirl or even John Stewart himself can give us some kind of insight on this very scary unagreed upon phenomena; as both seemingly work closely with some of these "powers that be" on what should be this very subject.

Seriously....is there any subject matter that we talk about any more critical than the above...and how does this lend itself to the "pay-to-play" issues that are obviously TABOO on every one of our orv discussion boards?

While I respect the fact that many hold back here for the simple reason that they are tired of the indecision involving these issues and that they maybe just don't have the time....could somebody please answer one simple question for me here?

HAS ANYBODY IN THE HISTORY OF MOTORIZED RECREATION EVER WITNESSED ANY ORV LEADER (you know, the people we send money into every year) COME DOWN ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER OF JASON'S EMBARRASINGLY BASIC PREMISE ABOVE?


If you're referring to his assertion that some land managers don't want to make new trails because they will only increase the strain and damage on the land, then yes that's absolutely true. He and I have been told that by a handful of land mangers in the FS and the BLM.

Illegal OHV use is a serious problem. AND IT IS EVERYWHERE. From front country areas like AF Canyon to the most remote regions of San Rafael Swell, illegal OHV use (that's everything from atv's, dirt bikes, to 4x4's) is a major threat to protecting our access.

Like I stated, we do have "pay-to-play" in the west. OHV enthusiasts volunteer for the land managers, and they pay to join local and national organizations to support the cause of OHV access.

The idea you've suggested is interesting. I suggest you work on it, and make it happen.

[QUOTE=scoutabout;6523018]If you're referring to his assertion that some land managers don't want to make new trails because they will only increase the strain and damage on the land, then yes that's absolutely true. He and I have been told that by a handful of land mangers in the FS and the BLM.

I think I've confused the issue; as I can't recall mentioning land managers; only orv representatives in relation to publicly making a stand on funding issues and more importantly the percentages argued earlier.
Answering the above: Jason's first post read as follows:

"...the BLM was in process of investigation, and very impressed with the OHV user response on a two day notice to help clean up one guys' off-trail abuse. When the reports came back after the project took place, it was learned that there was by far much more time and effort put in to clean up and block off illegal tracks created by more specifaically ATV users' illiegal routes...."

Whether it was one guy here or a hundred.....the BLM had to inform these good people that somebody had better get out there and clean up this mess. Jason then gives probably the most honest assessment I've ever heard of the encroachment problem unfortunately rampant all around this country here:

"...look at it from the BLM or FS's point of view. if you have an area, let's say one specific canyon that gets so much OHV use that you can't stay on top of closing all the illegal user created routes each week, are you going to want to spend the time and money to create more trails? more trails that will have 100 spur trails by the end of the first month? which means more time and man power for closures, maintainance, law enforcment... that's not how they think... they see giving more trails as more of a reward than a solution to the problem of over-crouded OHV areas...."

Now what's the surprise here(?) and to get back to my original question....

Are they (land managers) being told by "our guys" that you and I are all *for* sending a privitized crew out there next time (with volunteers in tow or not) that will be at their beck and call if/WHEN this obviously happens again?

My point here is that at no time in the history of these guys speaking for 'us'.....have they ever suggested that we take a proactive as opposed to reactive stance on these closure and maintenance issues in regards to good 'ol hard cash and the mountains that it does indeed move.

We have the same thing here in Michigan.
The DNR proposes that we try a privitized maintenance pilot program to get some kind of hold on soon to be almost 4,000 miles of trails; damage they themselves can't quantify and trails EVEN OUR OWN ORV LEADERS have suggested be shut down for multi-year "studies" on regteneration......
Polaris and some good meaning legislators come on in here and suggest we build the only width trails that any private company would realistically tackle (60 inch)....
And the motorcyclists opppose the whole damn thing because not only is there a good chunk of money involved on their part...but "environmental responsibility" obviously threatens the future of their arrogant separation from the rest of us on A WHOLE BUNCH of what they consider God-given mileage. (with the DNR opposing 60" multi-use trails; the elimination of single-track keeping the majority of the off-road community off "their" land and a system in place which guarantees a job overseeing dis-jointed/antiquated volunteer programs instead of for-profit privitization with tougher pro-orv lobbying forces).

I keep hearing about how the west is so much different than anywhere else and how this frankly inspiring volunteerism is the long-term answer to these problems...yet in the same breath I hear about the 'inevitable' due to apathy and a lot of the same DAMN leadership problems we have here in Michigan absolutely poisoning this sport through lack of any kind of publicly held position regarding simple multi-use sytems or in fact pay-to-play.

I don't know how I can make it any plainer than that.
Great people doing bigger than life things to keep this sport alive; yet absolutely no one leading them in a manner which encourages folks to get excited about carrying this legacy on or thinking outside a box that hasn't even been described for the sake of simple unification.

"..The idea you've suggested is interesting. I suggest you work on it, and make it happen....."

If one can't get a reaction to the above or even Jason's extremely important disagreement earlier with YJgirl regarding how we even use what monies are out there...why in the heck bother? (I really hate ending a comment like that; yet there is absolutely nothing go on at the leadership level in this sport that would honestly excite a SMART young man or woman into building these legacies or continuing these fights....and that's a damn shame).

Yes, the various user groups are split amongst the motorized community, and it's a problem being worked on.

Yes, having money would change the battle. When you find out where to get that money please let us know.


If one can't get a reaction to the above or even Jason's extremely important disagreement earlier with YJgirl regarding how we even use what monies are out there...why in the heck bother? (I really hate ending a comment like that; yet there is absolutely nothing go on at the leadership level in this sport that would honestly excite a SMART young man or woman into building these legacies or continuing these fights....and that's a damn shame).

You make a big statement about doing more, and then this?

I don't know what's going on in Michigan, but I invite you to come to Utah to see the work being done by U4WDA, USA-ALL, RR4W, and many other groups. If this isn't inspiring enough to excite a "SMART young man or woman" then they must already be dead. Get involved, make things happen, and change things for the better.

:)

[QUOTE=scoutabout;6524108]Yes, the various user groups are split amongst the motorized community, and it's a problem being worked on.

I'm going to be blunt here:
Exactly who is working on the above rampantly divisive problem and more importantly....what has EVER been offered up publicly as even approaching a solution?

Here's Mr. Stewart not LAST MONTH offering up a summary of what is happening AT THE LARGEST DAMN SYSTEM OUT THERE:

"...And, it is counter-productive to split forces. Splitting forces in Michigan did not result in a recreation plan that addressed the needs of all...."

And here's another respected member of this community responding to John's statement that we are more organized than ever:

primergrey said:

"....I completely disagree with this statement. The OHV community is NOT more organized, the different factions, 4X4, 2 Wheeler, and Duner groups are more organized. As a whole, the OHV Community is still fragmented....."

Now why are these two individuals, widely respected in the orv community, willing to simply tell it like it is and not 'candy-coat' anything....while your only answer to the hundred of questions put forward here IN DETAIL is to regurgitate the same old line that we've been hearing for decades now with no names or publicly held positions clarifying anything?

"...Yes, having money would change the battle. When you find out where to get that money please let us know...."

I've given you a very detailed example of literally millions sitting right now on the table that anonymous and secretive 'leaders' won't even allow public discussion regarding.

I've pointed out increased fee proposals BY OUR OWN PEOPLE which seek to cut funding percentages for everything but opportunists seeking the tripling of unneeded subsidies thrown their way.

How much MORE would you like us to "let you know"???

Or is it the opinion of yourself and every other organization sitting there with their hand out on the "national" level....that anything happening east of the Mississippi River...is our own damn problem?

"...You make a big statement about doing more, and then this?..."

And then what, my friend....all the myriad of issues I've brought forward here for months now that you seek to answer in a couple short sentances with no one person named and certainly no meaningful details given as to what's being done at the moment?

"...I don't know what's going on in Michigan, but ...Get involved, make things happen, and change things for the better...."

You don't give a damn what's happening in Michigan at the largest maintained system out there and frankly, we're sick and tired of the same old 'rah rah' crap that you guys in the west ARROGANTLY spew out like a broken record as if we're all a bunch of mindless idiots.

Instead of me coming out to Utah...why don't you come here and witness why actually maintaining these sytems is a damn sight more important than knee-jerk reacting to every damn time somebody has a dumbass attack and gives the community yet another black eye.
Our orv 'leaders' are up here demanding that these 'raped' trails be shut down for study....have any of YOUR guys bumped their heads this badly....or should we just "put up with them" while they meet your guys for drinks around the pool at the next convention?

[QUOTE=scoutabout;6524108]Yes, the various user groups are split amongst the motorized community, and it's a problem being worked on.

I'm going to be blunt here:
Exactly who is working on the above rampantly divisive problem and more importantly....what has EVER been offered up publicly as even approaching a solution?

Here's Mr. Stewart not LAST MONTH offering up a summary of what is happening AT THE LARGEST DAMN SYSTEM OUT THERE:

"...And, it is counter-productive to split forces. Splitting forces in Michigan did not result in a recreation plan that addressed the needs of all...."

And here's another respected member of this community responding to John's statement that we are more organized than ever:

primergrey said:

"....I completely disagree with this statement. The OHV community is NOT more organized, the different factions, 4X4, 2 Wheeler, and Duner groups are more organized. As a whole, the OHV Community is still fragmented....."

Now why are these two individuals, widely respected in the orv community, willing to simply tell it like it is and not 'candy-coat' anything....while your only answer to the hundred of questions put forward here IN DETAIL is to regurgitate the same old line that we've been hearing for decades now with no names or publicly held positions clarifying anything?

"...Yes, having money would change the battle. When you find out where to get that money please let us know...."

I've given you a very detailed example of literally millions sitting right now on the table that anonymous and secretive 'leaders' won't even allow public discussion regarding.

I've pointed out increased fee proposals BY OUR OWN PEOPLE which seek to cut funding percentages for everything but opportunists seeking the tripling of unneeded subsidies thrown their way.

How much MORE would you like us to "let you know"???

Or is it the opinion of yourself and every other organization sitting there with their hand out on the "national" level....that anything happening east of the Mississippi River...is our own damn problem?

"...You make a big statement about doing more, and then this?..."

And then what, my friend....all the myriad of issues I've brought forward here for months now that you seek to answer in a couple short sentances with no one person named and certainly no meaningful details given as to what's being done at the moment?

"...I don't know what's going on in Michigan, but ...Get involved, make things happen, and change things for the better...."

You don't give a damn what's happening in Michigan at the largest maintained system out there and frankly, we're sick and tired of the same old 'rah rah' crap that you guys in the west ARROGANTLY spew out like a broken record as if we're all a bunch of mindless idiots.

Instead of me coming out to Utah...why don't you come here and witness why actually maintaining these sytems is a damn sight more important than knee-jerk reacting to every damn time somebody has a dumbass attack and gives the community yet another black eye.
Our orv 'leaders' are up here demanding that these 'raped' trails be shut down for study....have any of YOUR guys bumped their heads this badly....or should we just "put up with them" while they meet your guys for drinks around the pool at the next convention?

You must have misinterpreted my positions, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not actually insane.

The details of how every group across the country is working to further unite the various factions of the motorized community would be a very lengthy post. As I suggested, get more involved and you'll know what everyone is doing to work on this problem. Give Mr. Stewart a call, and I'm sure he'll be happy to discuss it.

The motorized community, on both sides of the Mississippi, is in the fight together. Things that affect the east affect the west. I'm not sure where you're seeing the attitude you're citing.

Are you asking a question about what to do in Michigan, or should there be more Michigan people to discuss this?

[QUOTE=scoutabout;6527450][QUOTE=TrailLegacy;6525257]
"...You must have misinterpreted my positions, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not actually insane...."

My point was that you are not offering positions here; simply throwing us back the tired old line involving lack of funds 'nationally' and how 'national' orv leaders are "working on" uniting us all after Mr. Stewart himself points out that we can't even get it done at the largest system out there.

As to the former, you step right around Jason and YFgirl's telling disagreement (above) involving how those all these monies should be spent to properly maintain trails 'nationally' while enforcing them..while on the latter; you STILL won't reveal how separating one group of enthusiasts from the rest of us for absolutely no other reason than their own selfishness; should simply be "accepted" as promoting said unity....when no other group out here demands their own trails and never have.

"...The details of how every group across the country is working to further unite the various factions of the motorized community would be a very lengthy post...."

Well let me tell you something....the details I've given to date regarding the manner in which these people and many others are DIVIDING this community have been v ery long indeed also. The difference is: I've taken the time to detail them with facts included for the purpose of meaningful discussion...and you've acted like every other muckety-muck 'leader' I've ever run into who talks about all of this "falling off of their plate" similiar to the pc-correct and non-commital crumbs mere peons out here paying their bills are expected to lap up without question.

Insane?
I think it's insane to send money into these people without forcing them to stand up like men here and treat us the same way.

"....As I suggested, get more involved and you'll know what everyone is doing to work on this problem....."

I rest my case.:shaking:

If one can spend 8 years almost DAILY questioning why all of these doors are closed; no public positions are given; all talk of us actually being viewed as environmentally responsible through pay-to-play are rudely rebuffed or just where is any "outside the box" thinking that could finally attract young people into our ranks....and not "know" any more than when he started for the arrogance of these "good 'ol boys" blocking the gate...what hope is there out here for any of us out here with either half a brain or any hint of how a FAMILY needs to be built?

"....The motorized community, on both sides of the Mississippi, is in the fight together. Things that affect the east affect the west. I'm not sure where you're seeing the attitude you're citing...."

I'm sorry, but that's either a lie; you haven't read a word of what I've said above...or both.

"....Are you asking a question about what to do in Michigan, or should there be more Michigan people to discuss this?..."

What has happened in Michigan (as Mr. Stewart alluded to) is symptomatic of both the cooperative and improper funding problems that have plagued all of us for decades now.
Over 3,000 (soon to be almost 4,000) miles maintained/enforced at $16.25 per year...with sticker sales FLAT for over 3 years or better?
Orv leaders attempting to reduce maintenance and enforcement percentages....while tripling the precentages going into subsidies? (people previously getting away with charging $60 PER KID to administer not teach classes and who charged parents to SIT IN ON their kid's classes with not so much as a 'peep' from anyone besides the state?)
How about orv leaders known very well and even PRAISED by our national leaders...proposing that we shut down trails for "study"...a trick right out of the good 'ol greenie handbook itself?

Again, this is happening at the largest system out there (and this is important)...a system having made the the commitment to (supposedly) maintain each and every trail out there every year....or shut them down.

And good luck in finding folks from Michigan in the know...the only '22,000 member representative council' that we have takes pride both in their anonymity and the secretiveness of their positions!

If you don't allow for-profit privitization to come on in here and work with these volunteers to make certain that the job is done and done peoperly...pretty soon, the volunteers will be gone and their will be absolutely no job to do.(for example, we presently have greedy single-trackers right now monopolizing the maintenance funding of massive mileage at the largest systyem out there and killing simple 5" on either side widening bills that would allow private businesses to get in here/do the job with much more varied equipment).

I've spent a good part of my life talking like a man and calling a spade a spade on many of these issues and as primergrey and many others have mentioned; we are tired of doing so with absolutely no support.

If these national and local leaders expect you to keep quiet and you obviously like it that way....more power to you. I just always felt that there was more at stake here than their huge egos and the honest debate that they've effectively squashed for years.

The tone and insinuation of your comments illustrate a good reason why you haven't gotten a lot of support for your crusade.

There is no cabal of secret leaders trying to keep you in the dark.

I can only speak from my own perspective and experience.

The tone and insinuation of your comments illustrate a good reason why you haven't gotten a lot of support for your crusade.

There is no cabal of secret leaders trying to keep you in the dark.

I can only speak from my own perspective and experience.

If you could just take the time to dispute anything I've said here; I'll apoligize.

Then again, if you or anybody else on here has nothing but insults as opposed to cold hard facts disputing any of the mess I've brought forward for you here in detail...I could really care less who 'supports' me or not.

"If you could just take the time to dispute anything I've said here; I'll apoligize...."

I'm still waiting to apoligize; as we discussed a lot of things in this thread that frankly examined the core of who we are as a group.

I'm still waiting to apoligize; as we discussed a lot of things in this thread that frankly examined the core of who we are as a group.

Apologize for what? You have a personal crusade against the "national ohv" leadership. My advice is to become a leader at the national level and change the things that you think are being done so poorly.

All I can say is that the dissapointments you've mentioned are not something I've experienced here in Utah.

You have a personal crusade against the "national ohv" leadership.

the dissapointments you've mentioned are not something I've experienced here in Utah.

can we get this tatoo'd on your forehead TL?

your issues against the national orv leaders are not ones we see here... your system is completely different than ours.. you need to understand that when you come into an international board and spit heat about these guys.... i think a number of us have no damn clue as to who your always referring too...

-Jason

[QUOTE=scoutabout;6572237]"Apologize for what?...'

That's pretty much the way I felt after offering to apoligize earlier for anything that I've offered up previously that has not indeed been based in fact involving the 'leadership' we're saddled with and our reluctance to actually 'pay' for maintaining the resource.

"...You have a personal crusade against the "national ohv" leadership...."

I have pointed out that my contacts with national leadership have been less than productive; as have others on this board who you don't seem to focus on.
My 'crusade' here in Michigan has involved the public's right to be informed and offered the opportunity to become involved in off-road issues without being treated arrogantly in the process.
It's a pretty simple concept...when tens of millions are on the line and hundreds of miles to boot...you come out from behind the curtain and talk like a man regarding how the community will be represented BEFORE you simply show up every quarter (with no two-way answers required) declaring that this is how it's going to be.

"...My advice is to become a leader at the national level and change the things that you think are being done so poorly....."

I can't even get a national orv leader to answer my repeated requests regarding the ground rules at these workshops or if the peon public will even be 'allowed' to ask questions of them after travelling 4 hours north in the middle of the winter...do you think that they'll accept my application? (lol)

"..All I can say is that the dissapointments you've mentioned are not something I've experienced here in Utah....."

Well, like I've said before, if it doesn't happen west of the Mississippi...it never happened anyways.
And this is exactly why more and more of us are looking harder and harder at our support of YOU everyday (frankly, I've never met a more 'it's all about us' bunch in my life).:shaking:

?

I work with the Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association, so yeah I guess I'm focused on Utah. I have no idea what you're referring to.