posting some pictures for a friend of his dual 4 speed set-up since several people have been lookign for photos.He has a 408 ci small block(11:1),dual sm 465's, to a 205 and now 2.5 ton rockwells(used to have dana 70's)...system has been in use for three years with no problems..

pic one is of adapter which marrys the 4 speed's together. It is a piece of flat plate,inside the you see a coupler used to mate a 465 to a 205 used to mate the tailshaft to the resplined input on the second 465

Sweet. 43:1 in the "transmissions" :eek:

and damn near 600:1 total :eek:

picture 2 is of the front input of the second transmission which has been resplined to 10 spline on 1 3/8 diameter(just like the tailshaft of a 465).

picture 3 is a side view of the front input on the second transmission and the retainer....if you have questions look up the username toploader4x4 and e-mail him here on the board....I have seen it work and it works dam good..:D

Sweet setup. What's the original spline ct./ diameter on the front input??

front input for the 2nd trans was originally 1 1/8"x10. It was just a factory GM input shaft for a 1/2ton truck.

so what was used in place of the original input shaft-- i mean, since the original was only 1 1/8" x 10 spline, how was it increased to 1 3/8" ?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55213

just a link to the origonal thread that spawned this one.

thank you for emailing me the pics

I am really curious as to how it drives? Do you leave the rear trans in 4th and the use the 1st trans like normal or what? Sounds very cool!!

Yes, if you put one transmission in 4th, it acts like it is not there (1:1, no gear reduction). It is cool to put both in reverse, then it goes forward.

Originally posted by toploader4x4
Yes, if you put one transmission in 4th, it acts like it is not there (1:1, no gear reduction). It is cool to put both in reverse, then it goes forward.

Please explain this.....

So if you want low, low, you put both in first?

actually, the 465 has a low gear of 6.55 and a reverse gear of 6.09, so both in reverse will be higher than both in low

but, both in reverse will make you go forwards @ 37:1 which is still pretty low

drnut,Yes you would leave the second in 4th and shift the first.I am thinking of doing this and was going to put a short shifter on the second trans so you wouldn't been accidentially shift that one when you didn't want to.Toploader you don't have any pics of the whole setup together outside the rig do you?Blazin:rasta:

I was thinking the front box should have rev ripped out and use the second as the main

I am contemplating a similar swap but I figured the first tranny should be left in 4 and the 2nd tranny be used as the primary. If you are in 2nd gear (first tranny), the 2nd tranny gets the added torque after the 1st tranny multiplies it. constantly taxing the 2nd tranny. Does this make sence or would it even matter???

Sorry guys, I don't have any pics of it out. I shift the first one when driving. I have thought of the added torque to the rear one, but the 465 is a BIG transmission, I don't think you would hurt it. Both of my shifters are full length, the learning curve is pretty quick. It doesn't take long until it is second nature. The hardest part is wondering what gear you need to be in.

I would shift the first tranny,Just because it would be in the stock spot.The second would be so far back it would be hard to shift easily.Blazin:rasta:

I would also shift the first tranny, because the extra rotating mass of ALL the internals of the first SM465(if shifting the second) would be a substanial amount more than the stock synchros were meant to slow down/speed up for the shift... Just my $.02

learn to match rpm and you wouldnt be eating syncros

I would not want to spin the input of the second tranny backward when reversing
it seems that would send thrust forces the opposite direction that the box is designed to see.

I have bucket seats so shifter location shouldnt be an issue

I've chewed the front input shaft out of 1 465, and lost 2nd gear teeth in the other. I'm not a big fan, but I guess with low power the 2nd 465 will live. I'd personally shift the 2nd tranny, but I don't know what sort of set up it's in.

Originally posted by MR4WD
I've chewed the front input shaft out of 1 465, and lost 2nd gear teeth in the other. I'm not a big fan, but I guess with low power the 2nd 465 will live.


If a SM465 isn't enough of a tranny for you then what tranny is?




:zzz:

lotta talk there

Hopefully this set up will last. I'm a big clutch dropper. ie, 40's locked solid on rocks or in mud, no momentum, must move forward. An auto will defeat that problem.

http://www.bogginfreaks.com/phpreaders/albums/MR4WD/abh.jpg

Here's a friends unit, same thing

http://www.bogginfreaks.com/phpreaders/albums/mudder/aah.jpg

Here's a friends unit, same thing

get a 2 wheel drive unit with the 32 spline output shaft It handles almost a 1/3 more torque and horsepower .

:beer:

arent they 35 spline?

Yes, the 2wd 465 output is 35 spline. Unfortunately, Advance doesn't make any adapters for it...right?

Sorry i dont understand why if both were in reverse you would go forward. So does this mean if both were in first it would go backwards :confused:

Originally posted by Still a NEWBIE
Sorry i dont understand why if both were in reverse you would go forward. So does this mean if both were in first it would go backwards :confused:

You are not not incorrect.

Originally posted by Still a NEWBIE
Sorry i dont understand why if both were in reverse you would go forward. :confused:

The engine is turning clockwise (when viewed from the front). The first transmission reverses the clockwise rotation of the input shaft to counterclockwise rotation of its output shaft. The second transmission reverses the counterclockwise rotation of its input back to the original clockwise. The end result is a forward gear but the shaft between the transmissions is turning in reverse.

Originally posted by Still a NEWBIE
Sorry i dont understand why if both were in reverse you would go forward. So does this mean if both were in first it would go backwards :confused:


thats why your STILL A NEWBIE :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Still a NEWBIE
Sorry i dont understand why if both were in reverse you would go forward. So does this mean if both were in first it would go backwards :confused:

and exactly as toy283 explained!!

but if you put it into reverse and then reverse again it goes forwards, super cool and confuse your mates ;)

just back the rig up a bit!! :eek: :rasta:

Still nobody has answered what the NEW input shaft started out as. The previous stuff stated the 10 splined to mate were 1 3/8", and the original was fine spline at 1 1/8" So what did he use?

I have a 2wd sm465 here and this looks like it might be a cool thing to do.

Depdog:usa:

I know this will raise some eyebrows, but here goes. My input shaft is two shafts welded together. The rear part (inside the transmission) has the front 2/3 machined off. The 1 3/8"x10 spline section is machined off a donor shaft. The two pieces are machined to be a press fit together, this insures the center lines of the two shafts meet in a straight line. The pieces are welded up and turned back down on a lathe. Hopefully this answers your question.

Originally posted by Randy



thats why your STILL A NEWBIE :flipoff2:


Damn this is too true i was driving along today and thinking about what i asked and damn im dumb i was tired when i asked the Q and didnt give it any real thought, But today i did and i realised as toy283 said how it worked. I guess it also gives you 4 different reverse gears too if you put the front box in reverse and shift the rear box through its forward gears.


When i thought about this i thought i bet those Yanks are over there flamming me right now, but maybe i had the wrong idea on all you guys. Have some :beer: :beer: on me.

I drew up a dream plan on the dual 465 idea in 1995.
even marked where in the cab the new shifter holes need to be.
thank you for your posts they have reinvigerated the idea.
problem is now I want to get greedy and find a different tranny to mix with the 465 for a greater variety of ratios, maybe a close ratio box and just use the 465 for the deep gearing....
second thought :flipoff2: why did you start me on this again?

the welded input doesnt phase me at all.
I have seen input shafts made that way for odd ball tranny combos before.
the Eaton 18speed in semis rated at continuous 2000ft lb input torque have the gears in the spliter/range box welded together

Toploader -just for informations sake and for those of us contemplating doing this, just a few ?'s
1.which shafts do you need to use for this to work?
2. is the plate adapter just attached to the backside of the original adapter from the 465?
3.and you can get these machined for $200
4.is there anything else I am missing?


Thnx
:)

ok here goes,
1) you need the original input shaft out of the second transmission, and ANY shaft that is splined 1 3/8" x10. The input shaft is cut off, the 1 3/8"x10 section is cut from the donor shaft and welded to the input shaft.
2)the plate adapter is NOT just attached to the factory adapter. My adapter is the entire piece between the two transmissions. The front piece is 7/16" steel plate machined to bolt to the back of the transmission. The rear piece is 7/16" machined to bolt to the front of the 2nd transmission. Someone has mentioned just making a single plate that would bolt to the factory adapter, I am concerned about the strength of this. I have heard several stories of the factory adapters breaking and cracking. I wonder if the added weight and leverage put on the adapter would cause even more failure. Anybody have an opinion on this?
3) $200 for machine work on the shaft only, you might find someone to do it cheaper, but my guy is good!
4)this makes for a damn long front driveshaft, and a short rear one. the front driveshaft is very hard to keep out of the rocks (another reason I went to rockwells). You might want to think about a 2nd crossmember to help carry the weight, but if you put one in you will have to build it around the front driveshaft. Also makes for one heck of a conversation piece, everybody thinks it has dual t-cases at first.

Ok I think I want to do this.But was thinking of using my stock jeep 3 sd behind the 465.Since this combo would be shorter.Think the jeep tranny can handle it?And what about using a carrier bearing in the front shaft?This way you could run straight for a ways then drop down to the diff.This is going in a Cj-5 that will be stretch like 20"-22".Any ideas?Blazin:rasta:

Originally posted by MR4WD
Hopefully this set up will last. I'm a big clutch dropper. ie, 40's locked solid on rocks or in mud, no momentum, must move forward. An auto will defeat that problem.

http://www.bogginfreaks.com/phpreaders/albums/MR4WD/abh.jpg

Here's a friends unit, same thing

http://www.bogginfreaks.com/phpreaders/albums/mudder/aah.jpg
What is the top pic of. I dont belive I see an adaptor in there. do they but against each other.
OK EVERONE Rag on the wanna be:flipoff2:

Looks like a turbo 400 and a late model round patern NP205 right? :rolleyes:

I see the adapter.:flipoff2:

Looked again and saw the adapter with the cross member mount on it.

Originally posted by mj
...I want to get greedy and find a different tranny to mix with the 465 for a greater variety of ratios, maybe a close ratio box and just use the 465 for the deep gearing....


I've thought about this too, since I wanted to put a manual between an auto and the t-case, the problem is that the only close ratio trannys I could think of came in cars and wouldn't be strong enought. It would certainly give you more usable gear options, though. Would be nice to be able to leave the second trans in 4th for street use w/say 35s, then put it in 3rd when running bigger tires. I just have questions as to the durability, even with a 465, when the first trans is in low. Since these trannys were never meant to see that kind of input torque (6-7 times what the motor is making).

Pete

2wdr truck tranies are often a lot closer gear spacing then 4wdr.
and 3.5 or taller gears the cruise rpm in 3rd/4th is same as 5.13s would be with single 465. not that i looked or anything. still say the front tranny should be the deep reduction and drive with the rear

I see the part in the middle but it looks more like a stock part not something fabbed up. Thanks

pcorssmit,
I really doubt you would be using 6.55 gear in the reduction box and tranny at the same time. in your case that would give 13:1ish in just the range boxes not including the tranny and difs.
the owner of this tranny seems to claim other things break prior to the transmissions.
ujoints are cheaper fuses

Aside from the cool factor, I see no real reason to go through that much bother or any real reason to have 34 forward gears. Gearing more that 200:1 is IMHO a waste of time and money. But hey, to each his own!

the real reason is the cost is much lower then other options.
lower then a simple doubler I bet.
with no rare parts to find.
a 4 speed version 203 for a chev is hard to find
a 400 version 205 for a chev is hard to find
hard to find = $$$ or long time searching

Originally posted by mj
pcorssmit,
I really doubt you would be using 6.55 gear in the reduction box and tranny at the same time. in your case that would give 13:1ish in just the range boxes not including the tranny and difs.

Thats another reason I wanted to try finding a close ratio tranny that would work, in order to have more usable gear ratios. I had also thought about using an older 4 spd w/a single speed t-case if you could save length this way, but not sure you'd be able to get much shorter than a 4 spd/205 combo (unless the adapter was shorter). If it works, the 4 spd/case would be dirt cheap.

As for the 10 spline 203, they are somewhat rare, but there really isn't any demand, the last one I found I turned down for $75.

Pete

you should grabbed it.
you could get a few hun for it I bet

Originally posted by mj
you should grabbed it.
you could get a few hun for it I bet

It was a few years ago, I went to look at it because I thought it was a 205 (IIRC, the truck was a '75, or at least thats what the guy told me on the phone).

I've already got enough stuff lying around my garage/cellar that fits the category of "could get a few hun for it I bet", the problem is finding the person.

While I did turn down the 10 spline 203 for $75, I did pick up a Ford 203 for $10 that some guy didn't want to haul home from the swap meet. :D

Pete

The main reason for me wanting to do this is $$$. have the trannys to do it already.No need to search for the 4sd 203 then the 400/205 then pay $800 for the adapter to put them together.And after all that end up with only 108to1.(4:10s)With dual trannys I would have more choices and a crazy low/low/low.With 2 465s and 4:10s it would be like 350 to 1.If I can get the input shaft built for a couple hundred then build the adapter I am better off.Blazin:D

it looks like I am going to weld the coupler directly to the input gear if machinist says it can be done.
I was pondering cutting up the 10spline 203 I have but the coupler may work out better.
this will shorten the works up

So if a guy was to say......bolt up two ford tranny's together, would it be best to use a Chev 32 spline coupler (I believe this exists). Anyone know of the shaft size for the 32 spliner??

Originally posted by Rogue Bronco
So if a guy was to say......bolt up two ford tranny's together, would it be best to use a Chev 32 spline coupler (I believe this exists). Anyone know of the shaft size for the 32 spliner??

couplers for chevy's are either 10 spline(465/205) or 27 spline(th350/205)..The turbo 400/205 uses a 32 spline shaft .However, the transfer case has a female input rather than using a coupler. Believe ford is 31 spline ..Hope this helps.:D

I was thinkin of usin a coupler to connect the two trannys (ford)
Tranny #1 - output machined to match coupler.
Tranny #2 - Input machined to match coupler.
So 27 is the finest/largest splined coupler? Do you know the shaft size??
Ford is 31 spline, but the outputs are WAY long anyways. So I'll have them shortened & resplined anyways.
Just measured and the output is 1.35" Dia. and the input is 1.00" Dia. Might be time to re-think this idea, 1" seems pretty shabby for the #2 input :(

MJ are you welding the coupler to the stock input?

current thinking is to cut the coupler down to ~1.75" long
cut skinny input shaft off of input gear and weld cut down couple on.
should make adapter ~3.5" and have 10 spline tranny output plug into new female 10 spline input.
thinking on the seal issue still.
either run the one that is normally at the TC end on the front of the adapter on tranny#1 output shaft, or no seal and connecting line between the 2 trannies drain plugs
was thinking of regearing diffs to 3.54:1
driveshaft rpm on the hiway will be nice and low so vibration/whipping will be less of a problem then deep gears n OD
with one tranny in 3rd would = 5.13:1 in the dif
which many recommend for my 39" tires and SBC

again this all depends if the machinist says he can stick the coupler to the input gear. no idea what either of them are made of

I thanking on doing this. And I read the hole tread is it going to work? And can it be done with the 420?

sorry for bringing up an old thread:flipoff2:

Has anyone tried mounting a short automatic in front of a SM465? Something like a "shorty powerglide" (drag race short tailshaft conversion for dragsters).

Or maybe some sort of front wheel drive transmission that has been converted to rear wheel drive. Most FWD autos have all of the "important stuff" in a very small package and then have a chain or gear transfer to an intermediate shaft to get the power to te differential. I have thought about bypassing the intermediate shaft crap and make an tailhousing/output right there. Has anyone else looked at this?

It would also open up a lot of FWD engines to the swap list for buggies!!!