this is on my 94 4.0 YJ . i have decided i want to use 2" BDS wrangler springs for my springover instead of waggy springs. i still want a longer wheelbase though so i want to extend the frame in the front, move my spring mounts forward, and gain about 4 - 5 inches in doing so. this might include a spring pad offset, not sure. (in the back i will probably put the shackle mounts on the rear bumper, similar to H8Monday, but no as extended). i know i will need to use 1/4" steel to extend and box up the front of the frame, followed by moving the steering box forward just as many inches as i stretch it, but what else will i need to do? what about the steering shaft? does it telescope or will i have to have it lengthened? keep in mind i will be doing a shackle reversal too. so what am i missing here? thanks!


oh yeah - im going d300 gm 60/14bolt if it matters


- jake

no one?

Theres a couple of different ways to do this, but the easiest, would be cutting the chassis just behind the grill. Some 2x4x.120 rect. tubeing will be enough (no real need for 1/4") with a little finness you should be able to fit the 2x4 inside the old rails. By do it this way you will get rid of all the old steering mount holes and have a pretty deacent looking finished product. While your remounting the box try to clock it down some, for some reason wranglers have the box clocked up quite a bit makeing for some shitty steering geom.

The steering shaft will need to be lengthend, but with a little paitience it's not a hard job.

When you stretch the wheel base up front with the shackle reversal it's going to put the shackle mount in the upward travel part of the stock chassis, you may need to build down a bit or you may get away with sleeving the chassis, try not to use a long shackle do to this problem, you wont be happy with it.

good luck
ericfilar@fatcity

i dont understand how cutting the frame would be the easiest. why not just add 2x4 box to the front of the frame, building a front bumper and spring mounts into it?

what do you mean by "clock it down"? do you mean just the mounting height on the frame or the actual angle it is mounted at?

and about the shackle reversal, could i just make some shackle hangers similar to the stock ones, but a little longer so they reach down enough to match the stock level, and then just use stock length shackles?

thanks!


- jake

Originally posted by JeeperJake
i dont understand how cutting the frame would be the easiest. why not just add 2x4 box to the front of the frame, building a front bumper and spring mounts into it?

I guess that would be the absolute easiest get it done in an hour who cares what it looks like way to do it. But if you have a little extra time to do it right, it will give you a compleatly new platform to work with makeing the overall project easier and more profesional looking.

[i]
what do you mean by "clock it down"? do you mean just the mounting height on the frame or the actual angle it is mounted at?[/B]

The actuall angle that it is mounted at

[i]
and about the shackle reversal, could i just make some shackle hangers similar to the stock ones, but a little longer so they reach down enough to match the stock level, and then just use stock length shackles?

thanks!
- jake [/B]

I think the stock shackle hanger on those things are just a peice of 3/8 with an eye rolled into the end right? I'm not sure how to make those longer, but it would'nt be to hard to sandwich the chassis with some 3/16, drill a large hole thru them and sleeve it with some tubeing and a bush. The stock shackle length is fine
ericfilar@fatcity

Originally posted by FatCity


I guess that would be the absolute easiest get it done in an hour who cares what it looks like way to do it. But if you have a little extra time to do it right, it will give you a compleatly new platform to work with makeing the overall project easier and more profesional looking.


this seems to look pretty clean to me: http://www.rockskullz.com/matts3402/matts/P1010003.jpg

http://www.rockskullz.com/matts3402/matts/P1010004.jpg

http://www.rockskullz.com/matts3402/matts/P1010005.jpg


so how far would you clock the box? what advantage does this have? thanks!



- jake

The advantage to clocking the box is that the connecting point on the pitman arm will not be so high in relation to the connecting point on the steering arm. Thus you have a decreased drag link angle. You can combat the drag-link angle with drop pitman arms also, but like FatCity said, since you have to redo the mount anyway, why not set it up right.

Take an angle measurement of the the pitman arm (flat portion on the round part that fits on the box) in relation to the ground. That's the working angle of the box. You can change this so that it's parallel to the ground or whatever when you drill your new mounting holes. This will allow for longer pitman arms without necessitating a drop.

For example- I needed to add a 4" wagoneer drop pitman because a stock wagonner arm is flat. The extra length and flat arm did not work well with the designed angle of the YJ box. Now if my arm was parallel to the ground (box shaft would be perpendicular) then the longer arm would not have increased the angle. It's like traveling further up the hypotenuse of a triangle, you get higher in relation to the ground.

BTW that looks like good work in those pics

Thats just the guys bumper mount not a frame extension.
Your just going to have to trust me on this. Theres a right way and a wrong way for everything and the right way is rarely the easiest.
ericfilar@fatcity

Kudos to bigdude, for the streight answer :flipoff2: :D

i see what you are saying about decreasing the drag link angle, but couldnt you just drop the height of the box itself? seems like that would be just as effective and it seems that the working angle of the box would be there for a reason. am i wrong? also, if the box was clocked rather than dropped, wouldnt that put a greater angle on the steering shaft? is that not an issue?



"Theres a couple of different ways to do this, but the easiest, would be cutting the chassis just behind the grill. Some 2x4x.120 rect. tubeing will be enough (no real need for 1/4") with a little finness you should be able to fit the 2x4 inside the old rails."

so you are talking about sleeving the frame, right? will 2x4 really fit in there? what size is the frame?

and after you sleeve it, there would be a thinner part of the frame- how would you make it even, just weld plates around that part where it was sleeved?

thanks!



- jake

Originally posted by JeeperJake
i see what you are saying about decreasing the drag link angle, but couldnt you just drop the height of the box itself? seems like that would be just as effective and it seems that the working angle of the box would be there for a reason. am i wrong? also, if the box was clocked rather than dropped, wouldnt that put a greater angle on the steering shaft? is that not an issue?

four things:

1. I can't think of one reason they clock the box like that, but it deffinatly wont change the opperation of the box.

2. It will increase the angle on the steer shaft, but thats not a problem due to #3

3. Theres a good chance (I just thought if this) that you might need a pillow block of some sort in the shaft when you move it out 5". The steer shaft may want to go thru the grill, but this might be counter acted by clocking the box down.

4. lowering the entire box location make it more likely to hit things such as rocks and small children ect.




[i]
so you are talking about sleeving the frame, right? will 2x4 really fit in there? what size is the frame?

and after you sleeve it, there would be a thinner part of the frame- how would you make it even, just weld plates around that part where it was sleeved?

thanks!



- jake [/B]

It should fit (it dose on CJ's) I'm possitive something will fit, but your the guy with the wrangler and the messureing tape.:D

Clearify the sleeving question, I'm not sure what you're talking about

ericfilar@fatcity

If you drop the box height you'll still be increasing the angle on the steering shaft. It's six one way or half dozen the other.

I'm not an engineer for Jeep but I'd wager the clocked box had something to do with the drag-link to tie-rod connection with a stock YJ steering set-up. Think about supsension cycle while turning the wheels, you have to keep the attached drag-link from interfering with the tie-rod. Swinging the arm through an angled arch can help to solve this. If you're going cross-over or high-steer (I'm sure you are with this build-up) than that should not be an issue anymore and you can flatten out the box.

Don't worry too much about the shaft angle. Look at someone with a 3" BL, that's equivalent to dropping the box 3", they're fine, so you will be fine re-clocking it. I personally used to have a 2" BL and never changed a thing with the steering shaft, now it's gone and everything is still fine.

And just because I'm posting more of my tech recently does not mean the amount of flaming dealt out will decrease:evil: :evil:

Originally posted by FatCity



4. lowering the entire box location make it more likely to hit things such as rocks and small children ect.



ha! thats good.

if im understanding the method you are talking about, i should cut my frame behind my grill, stick a length of 2x4 inside them, and yet separating them my desired length. so in effect, the shape of the top of the frame for example will look like this:

-------_____----------

so i was just asking if the next step would be to weld plates around the sleeve to reinforce it and make it blend in with the rest of the frame. eh?



thanks


- jake

Originally posted by bigdude
If you drop the box height you'll still be increasing the angle on the steering shaft. It's six one way or half dozen the other.

I'm not an engineer for Jeep but I'd wager the clocked box had something to do with the drag-link to tie-rod connection with a stock YJ steering set-up. Think about supsension cycle while turning the wheels, you have to keep the attached drag-link from interfering with the tie-rod. Swinging the arm through an angled arch can help to solve this. If you're going cross-over or high-steer (I'm sure you are with this build-up) than that should not be an issue anymore and you can flatten out the box.

Don't worry too much about the shaft angle. Look at someone with a 3" BL, that's equivalent to dropping the box 3", they're fine, so you will be fine re-clocking it. I personally used to have a 2" BL and never changed a thing with the steering shaft, now it's gone and everything is still fine.

And just because I'm posting more of my tech recently does not mean the amount of flaming dealt out will decrease:evil: :evil:

why wouldnt it be an issue with high steer? you still have to keep the drag link from hitting the tie rod.

oh yeah, and i already have a 2" BL. i was planning on keeping it too, so i could clock my D300 and maybe raise my tank a little, but mostly for the 300...


-jake

The 2x4 rectangular tubing I used to lengthen my frame (94 YJ)
would not fit inside the existing frame rail. Would almost fit widthwise (2") but was same hight (4")
I added a 3.5" piece, preped a bevel, centered it on the end of the frame rail and welded it on. was a butt joint top and bottom and sort of a lap joint at sides. Then I took 1/4" plates (3.5"x4") layed them over the 2x4 piece I added which brought the width equal to existing frame. Straped the top and bottom, ran a corner bead, and then finish ground everything smooth.
You can't see where I added length.
Not that I see anything wrong with the other idea, just my .02.
Haven't moved my steering box yet. I was learning here too. :D

cool- that actuall ysounds like it would be alittle more precise when it comes to being level in the end. looks like ill be using that method...


- jake

Originally posted by JeeperJake


ha! thats good.

if im understanding the method you are talking about, i should cut my frame behind my grill, stick a length of 2x4 inside them, and yet separating them my desired length. so in effect, the shape of the top of the frame for example will look like this:

-------_____----------

so i was just asking if the next step would be to weld plates around the sleeve to reinforce it and make it blend in with the rest of the frame. eh?



thanks


- jake

No, cut it behind the grill and use that piece to keep the trash can from floating away

The method of witch I speak of would give you an entire new front end
---------------_________________

__________------------------------

ericfilar@fatcity

why wouldnt it be an issue with high steer?

Because with a true high-steer set-up you drill your tie rod mounts in your arms with enough clearance that the drag-link will never interefere with the tie-rod:rolleyes:

bigdude-
that would be if you put the drag link end right on top of the tie rod end on the steering arm. not sure how that works, but i guess thats what i need to do?


fatcity - wouldnt that be weaker than using the existing front and sleeving it, since the 2x4 wont fit into the frame all the way?



- jake

Originally posted by JeeperJake
bigdude-
that would be if you put the drag link end right on top of the tie rod end on the steering arm. not sure how that works, but i guess thats what i need to do?


No, it's a lot easier than that. You just have one hole reamed for the drag-link, then have a second hole, further out on the arm, reamed to accept your tie-rod. Then on your second arm you just have a matching hole reamed the same distance as your tie-rod hole on the other side. Depending on the distance needed to stay clear of the drag-link you space the holes accordingly and dictate the length of you steering arms. This will constitute a custom drag-link and tie rod. It's a good time to switch to 1-ton rod ends or heims if you like (I got rod ends) If that's too much cash then just get 1 high-steer arm reamed for your drag-link and run a cross-over set-up (keeping the drag-link in the stock location). Then later on you can get a second arm and a custom tie-rod to go full high steer.

If I confused you let me know and I can try to explain it better

i thought you wanted to put the holes on the arms as close together as possible for steering geometry? whats the problem with mounting the drag link on top of the tie rod? what do you have to do to do this? thanks bigdude


-jake

I don't think it's necessary to have the tie-rod extremely cose to the drag-link. You don't want it out front by a mile but there is no problem with leaving enough space between the two to avoid interference. The most important thing I wanted in my set-up was that the drag like was perpendicular to the frame rails (parallel to the axle housing) while the steering was centered. Once you have that you have even steering geometry in each direction so You can mount your tie-rod to avoid contact and it will act the same in both directions (assuming you box steers the same amount in both directions, which they normally do:D )

I don't think you can stack rod ends, but you can stack heims. this is done mostly due to space constraints from what I've seen. If you've got the room (which you do because I have a YJ and I do) just have your tie-rod mounted as close on the arm without causing intereference with the drag-link. DO NOT run your draglink to your tie-rod if you don't have to (and I don't think you do) Thatopens up all the clocked box and interference stuff I mentioned before.

Now are you going cross-over, full high-steer, or what? Then tell me if you want rod ends or heims? Is the GM60 ball joint or king-pin. i'll take some measurements off mine once you tell me this info so you'll have something to work with.

well, i havent found a 60/14 combo for a decent price yet, so i cant tell you, but i want to go full high steer, and definitely rod ends since it will be my DD.


- jake

You've got to do everything else first. Mount the box, get a steering shaft, then worry about the arms. After the arms are on then worry about the drag-link/piman-arm. You can choose different pitman arm lengths for tight steering out of a stock box when fuul-width. Then worry about your tie-rod.

Right now I think lengthening your fram and steering should be last on your list considering you don't even have axles to use:rolleyes:

Originally posted by bigdude


Right now I think lengthening your fram and steering should be last on your list considering you don't even have axles to use:rolleyes:


true, but while im waiting, i might as well be planning out as much as possible

Originally posted by JeeperJake

true, but while im waiting, i might as well be planning out as much as possible

Re-building axles takes a lot of time and finding them takes even more. I'd be putting all your effort into this, JMO.