Well I just got back from the Cedar city UROC compition a day early thanks to moser axle shafts and my partners led foot.....(we run a narrowed k5 blazer) Cedar city kicked are ass!!! Here is my gripe just to pass on some info on a poor product.
WE Broke 3 moser shafts in the front dana 44 with CTM. I know get a 60...... We have one in the shop we just ran out of time to get it in. The CTM kick ass they never broke but the moser shafts ALL sheard at the same spot. Right where they quit their hardning prosess by the ears. We had 1 stock axle in 1 side and broke 2 mosers all before the stock one finally decided to give! To top it off we called them and they told us it must have been a bad day!!!! Bad day my ass!!! They will not stand behind thier product. I know alot of people on here like moser but this was not just a single incident. The reason the stock side was in was because we broke a moser on that side the week before down in little Moab. I belive this is a poor product for you 44 front owners.
The comp. was great lots of roll over I mean lots!!! alot of good people willing to help out. Thanks to all of the guys that helped are red neck buts out down there. We finally had to call it quits when we broke the 14 bolt rear. But it was a hell of a good time...

Not a lot of people break 14 bolts. What part broke?

Go 60 front, it sounds like you surely need it.

Moser shafts are 1541 material (unless they changed in the last 2 years). It's the same material used in the stock Dana shafts. I don't see an advantage to using the Moser shafts.

Like I said we have a 60 in the shop. I bet Steve breaks it to. That kid has one hell of a lead foot. We broke the 14 bolt shaft right next to the spline. To clarify a little it is the semi floater 14 bolt so it tapers down a little by the spline but not much.
Moser treats its shafts so they are supposed to be stronger than stock and they are all the way up to about a 1/2 inch or so next to the ears. They quit their hardaning prosess there and i belive it causes a weak link. I know people will argue this but i have seen them break time and time agin in this exact same spot.(and not just on are comp. rig) even with stock spicer u joints.

Go with Warn shafts. ChroMo all the way through, including the ears.

Originally posted by 1990JeepXJ
Go with Warn shafts. ChroMo all the way through, including the ears.

I'm sure you meant hardened all the way through as opposed to carburized.:flipoff2:

hmm hardened all the way thru would have no give, snap pretty fast.

ya Jeepin801...know where you're coming from. I can't recommend Moser anymore either. I am going to CTM's and Warn axles soon. So this is where you broke yours? see this link http://www.dreamwater.com/zuk/detroitsoftlocker.html

Might just be you found the weak link. Eventually something has to go at some point. With the CTM's if you had Warn shafts and started stripping Yukon gears would the Yukons be crap? Competion is the ultimate abuse and guys break 35 spline 60 stuff all the time. I know of two Atlas's that broke on two different trucks in the same place. Advance would'nt fix them for free because it was competition. Are Atlas's crap? I think the other part of your statement says a lot also "...partners led foot.....(we run a narrowed k5 blazer)". A full size with a V8 and big tires in a rock crawling competion is a lot to expect from ANY 44 axel.

Zuke yes that is the exact same spot they broke on all 3 axles.

Fear me Yes it is the weak link but with most people I know who run warn shafts the hub has usually gon way before the shaft or CTM ever has. We know the 44 is a substandard axle thats why we had so many spare shafts with us and a 60 waiting at the shop to go in. My gripe is that the stockers held up better and took more abuse than the mosers.
Oh and the thing about being a full size it weighs less or about the same as most built jeeps(i.e. cages, larger axles, 350. ect.). The only thing left out of the body is the skins. All the floors fire walls ect. are made out of aluminum. So as for as it being heavy it is compared to somthing like captin americas rig. But compared to most of the toys, jeeps, and other rigs its about the same....

I tell you what I give you guys 3 obstacles in your next comp before you break the front 60:D:D:D...I was the upper judge on #7 where the driverside let go...I give you guys credit though...they made it up to the top in two-wheel drive and a hell of a lot of motor...yes I just stood clear as I watched the rig come flying up the hill...very good show and I like your guys' different approach to the rig thing:D:D:D

Any pictures of the narrowed K5?

Ken H.


Originally posted by jeepin801
Well I just got back from the Cedar city UROC compition a day early thanks to moser axle shafts and my partners led foot.....(we run a narrowed k5 blazer)

Originally posted by four_by_ken
Any pictures of the narrowed K5?

Ken H.




You would bever guess it was a K5...besides the silverado emblem still on...I will see what I have...:D

well 801....I just ordered a set of CTMs from Jack.....300 plus shipping. Seems like a pretty good guy also. Now I have to find the best place to get a complete set of axles for my custom 44......

The problem isnt with Moser at all. Hardened is hardened, and ALL axles are hardened. But hardened "aftermarket" shafts are only slightly stronger than OEM. If you are gonna run high end CTM's in a 44 with BIG tires, low gears, heavy foot and big rocks, then guess what? Your hardened shafts are the weak link (as mentioned earlier). You will need to go with 300M shafts if you want to find the next weak link in the chain and my guess would be the hubs.

Originally posted by Ramstein
The problem isnt with Moser at all. Hardened is hardened, and ALL axles are hardened. But hardened "aftermarket" shafts are only slightly stronger than OEM. If you are gonna run high end CTM's in a 44 with BIG tires, low gears, heavy foot and big rocks, then guess what? Your hardened shafts are the weak link (as mentioned earlier). You will need to go with 300M shafts if you want to find the next weak link in the chain and my guess would be the hubs.

I know of several cases where the mosers have failed with just spicer joints in them, then the guys switched to warn shafts and they stopped breaking axles (the occasional u-joint, but the axles survive)

well like I said we are putting a 60 in. Steves driving style needs rockwells in my opnion, but that should help.

Supergeper I think you have us confused with the tube frame chevy truck that was there. They definantly had a different look to em.
I will see if i can find a pic of are rig to post in a bit.

OK yep I have ya confused...was your finished rig Miami Dolphins colors??? I was thinking that was an EB but I never really looked too closely at it...you guys never got to my obstacle then #7

So what is to stop one from getting their Moser shafts hardened all the way? Is this not good for the splines or something else? Cost? Impossible? Seems then they would be the same as Warns if not better because of the amount of material.
Please correct me if I am wrong

Phil:usa:

Ya it was the one with the miamie dolphins colors. Althoagh I cring at the comparison lol.
For some reason my pics that i have on webshot community will not show up anymore so i cant show any pics of the rig.

What stops you from getting the moser shaft hardend all the way is moser. they are the ones who decide where to stop thier hardning prosess. They would be as strong as the warns if they followed the prosess the whole length of the shaft.

Moser uses 1541, just like Spicer. Warn uses 4340. 300M is just an improved, vacuum-melted version of 4340 with slightly higher silicon content. :shaking:

Originally posted by jeepin801


What stops you from getting the moser shaft hardend all the way is moser. they are the ones who decide where to stop thier hardning prosess. They would be as strong as the warns if they followed the prosess the whole length of the shaft.

Right, but are there any shops that could follow through where Moser left off? Re-harden the WHOLE thing.

Phil:usa:

i don't think there is anything wrong with a moser shaft or any other 1541 shaft per say. the real issue is that your rig is too heavy for any 30 spline shaft regardless of who makes it or what material you make it from. fat rigs need fat axles shafts.

that being said if i had a rig that a 44 was a suitable axle for i would select a warn 4340 shaft. but i don't so i have 40 spline 300m shafts in my tera 60's :flipoff2:

Originally posted by camo
i don't think there is anything wrong with a moser shaft or any other 1541 shaft per say. the real issue is that your rig is too heavy for any 30 spline shaft regardless of who makes it or what material you make it from. fat rigs need fat axles shafts.

that being said if i had a rig that a 44 was a suitable axle for i would select a warn 4340 shaft. but i don't so i have 40 spline 300m shafts in my tera 60's :flipoff2:

Yup Yup, I finaly saw the light and followed in Sir Camo's footsteps (at his suggestion) and I aint broke a shaft since :D

In general, making a part like an axle shaft harder DOES NOT make it stronger. It makes it more wear resistant on bearing surfaces, but what describes the strength, or toughness, of a part is the area under the stress-strain curve. For a given alloy, hardening trades increased yield stress for decreased strain (or ductility, or flex, or elongation, or whatever you want to call it.) Hardening makes a part more brittle, but not necessarily stronger. Annealing can make a part tolerate greater strain, but at lower stress - ie. it is softer. Of course this is a gross oversimplification, and one needs to consider grain size effects as well as the thermal and stress history of the material since it left the furnace, but it is a useful simplification for the purpose of this discussion.

Of course bigger axles are tougher. Of course better materials make tougher axles too. But those who think they can just through-harden a 1541 shaft and get a tougher axle are totally full of shit.

Stronger is a term overused and underdefined. It has many meanings that can only be understood with careful clarification.

Through hardening will raise the yield stress. It will have an impact on the breaking capacity. As mentioned earlier through hardening will DECREASE the toughness. The material is more brittle and less capable of resisting impact or high strain rate loading.

Surface hardening, on the other hand, raises the surface yield strength of the shaft where the highest shear stress (torsion) is occuring. This in turn increase the FATIGUE resistance of the shaft AND improves the load carrying capacity of the shaft without significantly effecting the section toughness. Essentially the outer skin carries high shear stress but the inner core is soft enough to deform without full section failure.

Surface hardening that stops at a high stress location will leave a difference in load carrying capacity at the surface. The hardened surface will have a higher yield strength than the non hardened surface. The net effect is the nonhardened material will yield under high load, the hardened material may yield but not as much. The region between these surfaces will then have very high residual stresses that when reversed will cause rapid failure. Even if it's not reversed it's operating in low cycle fatigue. Every impulse will cause the boundary region to yield more and ultimately lead to failure.

I don't think the induction hardening process is correct for these shafts because it's not flexible enough to adapt to the difference is shape at the yoke end. A direct hardening process would probably be better and cover the entire part.

As for the material. The 4340 and 1541 should have similar strength and hardening capability. The 4340 should have higher toughness which will mean the shaft will last longer under the same loading. 300M will again be slightly better than the 4340 by removing inclusions or crack initiation sites.

Another way to improve the fatigue strength of the shaft is to micropollish the surface. This will remove the stress concentrator from the rough surface finish and will improve the life of the shaft. This has a MUCH lower effect on low cycle fatigue or ultimate strength.

The point of this discussion has gone off the deep end though. To get back to my original comment and reinforce it a little:

YOU NEED BIGGER AXLES OR LESS SKINNY PEDAL!!!! :)

another key design feature that very few axle builders use is that the shaft dia must be smaller than the root dia of the splines. this allows the whole shaft to twist some like a torsion bar instead of break right at the splines.

even fewer micro polish.

if you guys really want a top of line axle shaft that has the best material, 300m micro polished, proper heat treating, hobbed splines, proper design. and tested in the fastest and most badass desert racing trucks in the world. call sandy cone and bust out the check book cause the real deal aint cheap.

Camo,

Change hobbed splines to rolled splines.

Rolled splines are about 2 times the fatigue strength of hobbed or cut splines. In this case the compressive residual stresses are beneficial.

Sandy sure knows his stuff, but not everyone has that much cabbage to throw at a rig.

Originally posted by lt1yj
The 4340 and 1541 should have similar strength and hardening capability.

I agree with most of what you've said, but have to take issue with this comment. Cold-forged 1541 is typically 115,000 psi and 4340 is usually treated to 230,000 psi (depending on application; can go to 275 or so). 300m usually goes 290-300 (all stresses here tensile). Having got that off my chest, THANK YOU for injecting some coherent tech. into this thread! ;)

so since i am looking for alloy shafts right now who has the best deal for warn shafts

Thanks Craig

LLoyd,

I was going off memory for a modified 15B41. The specs I could find for 1541 are considerably lower yield and tensile than 4340.

Thanks for the correction!