Got axles? [Archive] - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board

Cajun

05-28-2002, 04:32 PM

ItsaCJ6 I got the axles and the custom brake work all from Don Henry. Great craftsmanship, very good to do business with. He goes by taradon on this bbs.

Mine were the 2nd ones he did, after his own, so his prices may or may not have changed. I don't want to give you the wrong info, so give him a shout. They're not cheap, but it's a very good price for what you get. My 2 fronts to my door weren't anywhere near what a pair of 60's from Dyantrac run, and I have no doubt that I'm getting A LOT more axle for my money.

Justin Messer

05-29-2002, 07:18 PM

Those are damn nice.
Are you going for rear steer?
What wheels are you going to have to use?
Ditto for the Suspension.
Is there a write up of detailed specs for portal axles like those?
What is your address and when will the axles be left alone ;)

Cajun

05-30-2002, 08:17 AM

Yes I'm going rear steer. As for wheels, I'm using hummer beadlocks. I'm going to cut the centers out and have new ones fabbed locally to fit the 'Mog bolt pattern. Backspacing shouldn't be an issue for fitment, but I may or may not reduce the backspacing depending on overall width. I'm shooting for 80-85" or so.

For suspension, I'd love to go coilover, but they're just so expensive. I'll probably end up going coils, I've talked to people that have had good results with stock ZJ or TJ coils. I'll probably just make a pass through the junkyard and get a whole gang of different kinds (in sets of 4, of course) and see which ones work the best.

I'm planning on using 4 links front and rear, similar to what Toy Family has on his new buggy. As long as I keep the triangulated links from interfering with the driveshaft during articulation, I shouldn't have any problems, correct? I'm concerned because of the offset of the rear diff. Or would I be better off using a non-triangulated 4 link and a track bar (like the '94-'00 Dodge 4x4 front end)?

Justin Messer

05-30-2002, 10:39 AM

Hmmm... leaves you with some intersting possibilities and challenges too.
For my money I would CAD design it and cycle before I even fired up the welder.
Or at least get a very experienced susp. designers opinion. Lots of guys have done this type of thing (although maybe not with portals) so you shouldnt have any problem.
For the t-case. Are you going to use a offset rear output, like the Spicer 18? Either way I love offset rear diffs because you always know where to aim the big rocks going underneath.

I like F150 coils. Just my .02

Go 1/4 ellip in th rear. Its just as difficult as coils and probably as cheap. As long as you make your own spring packs and fab it yourself. All the link concerns are basically the same.
Good luck and show some pictures of the buildup.

Cajun

05-30-2002, 02:36 PM

Yes, the project will most definitely provide me with MANY interesting possibilities and challenges! I think I'm as excited about building it as I am about wheeling it.

Depending on what the driveshaft angles look like when I mock it up, I may offset the engine and drivetrain to the passenger side. However, if the angles are acceptable, I'll leave it centered. I figure that as long as the angles are cool, it dosen't matter if they're down or sideways. (compound angles, if you will) The CV joints don't know which way is up.

I'm going Atlas II for the T-case, period.

Why 1/4 elliptical over coils?

Justin Messer

05-30-2002, 04:54 PM

"I'm going Atlas II for the T-case, period.

Why 1/4 elliptical over coils?"

I agree with t-case choice especially since you have obviouly invested in bombproof parts already.

As for susp. I thought about it, and youre right. IMO if you use coils in front, use coils in the rear. Make them the same ones and you would always only need one type of spare.
The same goes for 1/4 ellip. though. If you do it in the back, then do it in the front. AKA the Sniper suspension setup. Again you would only need one typ of spare parts.

I guess that I just like the bracketry and design of a 1/4 ellip. better than coils.
But you know what, its your rig, so do it the way you like it.
Either way its going to be:smokin:

Spankbomb

05-31-2002, 09:47 PM

Cajun,

Why did you stay with the Mog bolt pattern? Wouldn't have been easier to convert to a standard 8 bolt pattern at this time?

BTW, love the axles.

Cajun

05-31-2002, 10:14 PM

I stayed with the 'Mog bold pattern because it was cheaper to fab new centers for my hummer beadlocks then to have the conversion to 8 on 6.5" done, and because this way saves me 2" in total width.

MOGXJ44

05-31-2002, 10:16 PM

What BS are you going to go with for the Hummer wheels? And are you going to widen them at all? What size tire?
Travis,
Mogified XJ

Spankbomb

05-31-2002, 10:56 PM

Cajun

06-02-2002, 08:27 AM

Travis,

I don't plan on changing the backspacing unless I have to. During a "test fitting" there weren't any clearance problems, granted there was probably 1.5" of wheelstud in the way, but I didn't see anywhere that was even close. I'd like my overall width to be between 80" and 85". I figure that's wide enough for stability and narrow enough not to hang up on everything down here, so I may decrease the backspacing to get there.

I'll be running 42"x15" TSLs, so there's no reason for me to widen the wheel. They work fine.
http://offroadrepublic.com/fj40/chapter5/tsls_mounted2.jpg

Sillyneck

06-02-2002, 11:08 AM

where'd the disks come from? I kinda read the post but didn't see anything about them.

Cajun

06-02-2002, 08:55 PM

The disks are Wilwood units, 13.7" diameter.

taradon

06-03-2002, 05:51 PM

The Rotors are custom made, 13.7", cross drilled, the calipers are wilwood 4 piston racing units.

Don Henry

stonpny

06-03-2002, 11:30 PM

Do you have contact info?

CaptainFleXJ151

06-04-2002, 05:41 PM

Taradon - Are you associated with Exaxt? A friend of mine is planning on purchasing axles from them, but if you can do it cheaper then he would be all for it. Contact info. would be nice!
Also, why 4 piston calipers? You have no need for that sort of thing, unless you are running laps in your 4x4 at high speed. Maybe I'm missing something. And also, does the brake kit bolt on or do you have to machine the hub?

Cajun

06-05-2002, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by CaptainFleXJ151
...why 4 piston calipers?...

Why not? :flipoff2: :D

taradon

06-05-2002, 07:00 PM

Hi There, you can email me at taradon@uniserve.com or you can phone during the day or most evenings at (604) 828 7795.

I am not a part of exaxt, I have my own disc brake conversion.

I use Wilwood 4 piston calipers because then I don't have deal with a sliding caliper, because they have tons of clamping force, there are like 10 different kinds of brake pad materials to choose from, and they only weigh a couple of pounds.

Don henry

road1will

06-06-2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by GollyGwagen
I wanted (and still want) Mog axles under my Gwagen. All in the family you know. ;-)

I was told that Mog axles rotate backwards of normal axles. You appear to be running fronts on both ends, so I obviously have no idea how that works since it seems like they would want to travel away from eachother. I don't want rear steer, so can I just put Mog front and rear axles under my truck and make it work?

The other question is can you reach highway speeds running anything smaller than 42's?!?

hey Q, i dunno who told you about the running backwards thing but that is just plain WRONG.

and as to the highway speeds, i wouldnt run them at highway speeds anyways, because the bearings and lube systems in the mogs were not designed to be run at above 59mph :D

seriously, you risk bearings seizing at any significant speed.

so until you are ready to make your G a dedicated trail machine, i think that you would be better off swapping in some D44s or something of the like.

m016324

06-06-2002, 07:32 PM

actually the bearing and lube system in the transmission is the problem and they are actually bushings not bearings so running the axles are not a problem. You can run the tranny up to 55 all day but much past that you are probably going to burn up the bushings. There are kits to change them out to bearings and emilinate the problem but who wants to drive much faster than that in a mog anyway? And what you probably heard q was the front ujs on the axles look like they are running backwards when the truck is going down the road but that's not actually the case just looks funny.

-ben

CaptainFleXJ151

06-06-2002, 07:35 PM

From what I understand the Unimog's differential spins in reverse, but the portal hubs turn it back the other direction. Anyone else on this one?

P.S. Can someone fill me in on why those rotors are not vented?? Are they for off-road use only?

Cajun

06-07-2002, 07:49 AM

Yes, the differential spins in "reverse", but the hub reduction corrects this. Yes, I am using 2 fronts. This will be no different than running 2 rockwell fronts to achieve 4 wheel steering.

As for highway speeds, I've heard that the problem is with the portal housings. They're not designed to hold much oil, so at highway speeds (65+ mph) the limited oil volume just isn't enough to cool the gears. Not a concern of mine, since the only time mine will see highway speeds in on a trailer!

Yes, the rotors are not vented because it is a trail only rig.

taradon

06-07-2002, 05:41 PM

The discs don't need to vented, they are .810 thisck, and cross drilled. I was worried about this at first but when I found out that the stock Diesel Mog axles use solid rotors I wasn't as worried.
I also consulted with wilwood and they agreed that there isn't a real need to have vented rotors on these kinds of 4x4's

Don Henry

Sillyneck

06-08-2002, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Cajun
. Not a concern of mine, since the only time mine will see highway speeds in on a trailer!

hehe mine too :D

The Fleckster

06-09-2002, 11:59 AM

Well yes they do run backwards and the portal reverses that.

Bitchen that there is now mog tech since i have a Mog/60/70 hybrid pair of axles going in my Project X.

The plan is 3 weeks from now my axles will arrive from Switzerland, i have them forwarded aired to me for a total cost of around $1600 or so.

I will then cut off the axles C's and graft them onto a narrowed Dana 70 that will be upside down, and a Dana 60 that will also be upside down. That way the axle will spin in reverse for the portal to change directions on. I have not decided on weather I should do a disk conversion or just recenter my hummer rims.
One nice benifit I will have it that by flipping the axle I will have a high as hell High pinion for driveshaft angles. I am not worried about axle lube on the front bearing and heat buildup due to the slow speeds this rig will be entcountering on the trail. The ups and downs will slosh enough oil to the bearings, plus if I overfill it that will help too. If for some reason it becomes a problem I will dry sump the diff with a mini resovoir and squirt oil on the bearing or add a slinger.

Hey Tardon i am gonna call ya and pick your brain on the disk stuff. Cool?

BTW for thoes wondering My axles are coming from Expidition Unlimited, same place that the Rock Mog got his chassie for the tube buggy.

unimogken

06-09-2002, 01:31 PM

So whatcha gonna do with the "leftover stuff"?

Ya ya ya, i'm a Unimog packrat. :D

Later.

Ken S.

The Fleckster

06-09-2002, 03:11 PM

I am gonna take them shaved pumpkins and put them on my oxy acteleyn cart with a brigs and stratton 5 horse so i can move the tanks over uneven ground easier.

Okay so probley not but really i had though of selling them back to E.U. or another thought is to use them in a Scout since they have a cable locker built in. Attach regular tubes and Cs from a Dana 44 and run them in a "standard" scout. Benies are cable lockers front and back, and 3.54s work well in scouts, plus they are a shaved pumpkin design. Gotta figure out if i am on the coast or run side in a regular application though.

unimogken

06-09-2002, 04:23 PM

I thought that the welding cart was a good idea. I may have to do something like that when I finally get a welder.

A welder cart with portal axles.....hmmmmm Can you hear the (portal) gears turnin in my head?

Cajun

06-09-2002, 08:39 PM

Drop me a line if you decide to sell those 3rd members.

ryeguy

06-12-2002, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Cajun
I stayed with the 'Mog bold pattern because it was cheaper to fab new centers for my hummer beadlocks then to have the conversion to 8 on 6.5" done, and because this way saves me 2" in total width.

Cheaper, yeah. But I don't think you're going to save much in overall width. My Hummer rims are tucked in about as much as possible. Any more and there would be interference problems with the portal bolt pattern.

--Rob (back from TTC)

ryeguy

06-12-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by m016324
actually the bearing and lube system in the transmission is the problem and they are actually bushings not bearings so running the axles are not a problem.

Actually, there are bushings in the front axle too. And there isn't a lot of oil in the portals, either. We're looking into dealing with both issues...

--Rob

ryeguy

06-12-2002, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Cajun
Yes, I am using 2 fronts. This will be no different than running 2 rockwell fronts to achieve 4 wheel steering.

Be careful, Cajun. Using an unmodified steering axle in a rear application can lead to problems...judging by the phone calls I'm getting, there's lots of little things that lots of people (including some selling these axles) aren't aware of.

--Rob

The Fleckster

06-12-2002, 01:21 PM

And the issues are? Come Awwwwn Man spill the beans. BTW whats the easies way for me to convert mine to 8 lug pattern with disk brakes??

ryeguy

06-12-2002, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by The Fleckster
And the issues are? Come Awwwwn Man spill the beans. BTW whats the easies way for me to convert mine to 8 lug pattern with disk brakes??

At the risk of being flamed, I'm weary of posting my little things like these gotchas, and/or helping another guy who is also selling Mog axles (how to do a pinion conversion, where to go for disk brake parts, actual gear ratios and shaft diameter sizes, etc.) only to lose business. So for now, at least, I'm gonna keep quiet over this and a few others.

Easiest way to go to 8 lug pattern? Buy a disk brake kit. I know of 2 such kits (I sell one). Sorry, that's about it. I looked into going to an 8 lug pattern with the drum brakes, and it wasn't cost effective.

--Rob

The Fleckster

06-13-2002, 04:15 PM

There is nothing wrong with helping people with "Hey watch for this bushing, or look at X before buying, these tend to go bad".

I mean thats what this board is all about, helping people.:D

As for gear ratios, and axles shaft diameters, why is that a secret? Thats common knowledge in the Unimog world or anyone who wants to do a little reasearch for it. I would not hesitate to say the Unimog has a coarse X spline and is such and such diameter. I have many ideas on how to convert to disk brakes using Dana 60 stuff, and the two holes on the portal gearbox would make excellent mounting points. Wilwood sells calipers and ya can fit up most anything with a machine shop, steel, and some fab work.

I just figured someone else who has done this may be able to give some tips to a guy doing it so he dont screw up. Now i understand if this is your business and you feed your kids with this livelyhood. I did not know you were a business under strict confidentiality orders.

What shop do you own? This disk kit you sell, if its reasonable priced then yea i would be inclined to buy one, but many i have seen are way overpriced. I love to pay someone cost plus $50 for their ideas and not have to worry about them on my own. Thats business in a nutshell. For instance i sell Gear sets and lockers at cost plus $20. I dont feel i have to make a killing off every person. I just sell more and keep cost down, plus i get a $20 for my troulbles and paperwork that crosses my desk. It is fair and i make a living at it. So if ya want PM or e-mail me privatley and i would love to talk more with you.

John

taradon

06-16-2002, 12:00 PM

Fleckster, I am working on a set of hubs that can use stock chev parts, they will slip right on and use a 8 lug pattern, or 6 lug pattern. I will be closer to finish in about 1 month. It would make it easy put discs onself.

Let me know if you are interested.

Don Henry

coachgeo

06-16-2002, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by taradon
Fleckster, I am working on a set of hubs that can use stock chev parts, they will slip right on and use a 8 lug pattern, or 6 lug pattern. I will be closer to finish in about 1 month. It would make it easy put discs onself.

Let me know if you are interested.

Don Henry

are these Hubs for a Mog 404 ur working on?

The Fleckster

06-17-2002, 10:35 AM

Yea i thought of that as well. Basically take the 6 bolt pattern and manufacture a plate that bolts to that and then a raised up plate that will bolt to say a Dana 60 rotor. I also have given a T-case mounted brake thought since you would be stoping the input force before it got multiplyed 2.13 times. Core the Tires would back feed the driveline up to the brake and possibley twist something. Personally I am still exploring the Dana 60 rotor conversion. Its seems easy enough with a machinest buddys help.

Is this the same line of though you had or how is your different?

taradon

06-17-2002, 10:53 PM

I am looking into buiding new hubs, it is a waste of time and money to do the old ones. They are big and it dosen't let you just drill another set of holes in it and bolt a rotor on (that would be too easy.) Any way I am building new ones out of some 4140 and having them splined to fit the 404 portal output shaft. And I am going to do away with the stupid ass high interference side fit that they come with. Some of the hubs have as much as .008 of an inch interference, and some are a more reasonable .002 of an inch. There is no need for such a huge interference, they have to be snug but not a press fit. This will make wheel seal changes and installing the hubs WAY easier.

Anyway, if you really interested shoot me a PM and we will chat.

Don Henry

ryeguy

06-18-2002, 11:47 AM

Don, Tibus already has that new hub that you are talking about. And we're not that far behind doing that, either.

Fleckster, I understand what you are saying about what should be proprietary and what should be public knowledge about these axles. But I'm tired of teaching other people about these axles only to have them run with the information as if they've researched it and figured it out for themselves.

If you want some help, then gimme a buzz. The phone number is on the web site, www.exaxt.ca. Some people do feel it's overpriced, but all the stuff adds up, and there really isn't that much profit in this, or any of the stuff we are doing.

--Rob

unimogken

06-18-2002, 01:03 PM

How did your truck do at TTC ryeguy?

Later

Ken S.

taradon

06-20-2002, 09:32 AM

RyeGuy, I know Tibus already has the custom hubs, I will be starting production next week, I will sell the 3/4 ton GM rotors, calipers, caliper mounts, wheel studs, and of coarse hubs for 1300US per axle. This means that you can have front and rear discs for 2600 US when customer does intall.

So if you guys want a cheaper alternative to the other disc brake kits out there this is it. Also this will leave the hub with a 8 bolt pattern.

Don Henry

ryeguy

06-20-2002, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by unimogken
How did your truck do at TTC ryeguy?

Later

Ken S.

Only 8th. I was a bit disappointed, but hey, it's their competition, and I absolutely abused the axles and nothing broke, so I'm happy about that. Expect a trip report on BC4x4.COM shortly.

--Rob

unimogken

06-20-2002, 12:37 PM

Hey, 8th isn't bad at all!! Its top 10, and think of how many entered and didn't make it. You did a fine job!!

I didn't think anything would break anyways...hehe

Looking forward to the report.!

Later.

Ken S.

The Fleckster

06-20-2002, 01:00 PM

Okay so I am confused here. Tardon is going to produce the same hubs you already offer Ryeguy? Or is he making them for you or what? If in fact these hubs already are in production, tardon don't you think it makes more sense to pore your resources into some other product thats not on the market yet?

I mean thats what is done in the IH world so that we can get as many cool parts out there, rather than make the same thing someone else is making, unless of corse one has a superior design over another. :D

Just my 2 cents.
But either way i look forward to seeing them, however $2600 is a pile of bread. The chevy stuff is commonly available so i would say just sell thye hubs and let folks scour the yards for the chevy parts, but as a backup they can buy complete from you as well.

How much are your hubs Tardon?

How much are your hubs Ryeguy?
Ryeguy i could not access your site. Whats up with it?

ryeguy

06-20-2002, 02:44 PM

Hm. Can't access my site? Which one?
http://www.bc4x4.com/ryeguy
http://www.exaxt.ca

They both work for me here. Lemme know what the error message is so I can talk to the provider, please. The 'ryeguy' site needs updating, though...

I don't make the hubs. Tibus does. We're considering it, but as you said, why do it if someone else is already? We make an adaptor which bolts onto the existing hub after a bit of machining. I chose that over making my own hub to keep the original shield to the portal seal intact (which is lost with the hub designs that I've seen, but I think I can deal with it). If you're interested, I can just sell you those, that will get you to 8 on 6.5 but you'll still have to mount the caliper.

Re: products, there's only so many things that we can cover, and with the new stuff coming down the pipe I can't spread the company too thin. We've got enough new things in the pipe that something like that may have to wait, or not even happen. Once the products are fully tested, they'll be announced and available for public consumption. I can't comment on Don's choice for products. But you're right, you have to try to find a niche, and the market for disk brake conversions for Mog axles is only so large (and pretty small at that). Re: costs of disk brake conversions, I've been over the #'s time and again, it's expensive, but there's lots of parts to them, and there just isn't room to drop the prices ('til I find better suppliers for stuff).

--Rob

Originally posted by The Fleckster
Okay so I am confused here. Tardon is going to produce the same hubs you already offer Ryeguy? Or is he making them for you or what? If in fact these hubs already are in production, tardon don't you think it makes more sense to pore your resources into some other product thats not on the market yet?

I mean thats what is done in the IH world so that we can get as many cool parts out there, rather than make the same thing someone else is making, unless of corse one has a superior design over another. :D

Just my 2 cents.
But either way i look forward to seeing them, however $2600 is a pile of bread. The chevy stuff is commonly available so i would say just sell thye hubs and let folks scour the yards for the chevy parts, but as a backup they can buy complete from you as well.

How much are your hubs Tardon?

How much are your hubs Ryeguy?
Ryeguy i could not access your site. Whats up with it?

taradon

06-26-2002, 05:39 PM

Hubs are going to be in the 280US per range, I have changed from Chrome Moly to just high grade steel, when you go to put the studs in they should sink into the metal so I will stick with the high grade steel, but it definitely is not mild steel.

RyeGuy, I am very impressed with your performance in TTC, this is (IMO) by far the toughest TTC top 10 trucks ever, and I almost shit when I saw your Blazer bucking in the tow test and not break anything.

Don

ryeguy

06-27-2002, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by taradon
RyeGuy, I am very impressed with your performance in TTC, this is (IMO) by far the toughest TTC top 10 trucks ever, and I almost shit when I saw your Blazer bucking in the tow test and not break anything.
Don [/B]

In the tow test, or in the tug of war afterwards? Both times, the truck was bucking. Never had that much traction before with the Cepeks. Back to the drawing board...

Tow test, no breakage. Tug of war: Cory's D70 axle shaft, and both rear torque arms on my Blazer.

--Rob

Supergper

06-27-2002, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by taradon
Hubs are going to be in the 280US per range, I have changed from Chrome Moly to just high grade steel, when you go to put the studs in they should sink into the metal so I will stick with the high grade steel, but it definitely is not mild steel.

RyeGuy, I am very impressed with your performance in TTC, this is (IMO) by far the toughest TTC top 10 trucks ever, and I almost shit when I saw your Blazer bucking in the tow test and not break anything.

Don

so for $280 a side and then I supply the rest of the parts I could get to 8x6.5"??? thats cool:D:D:D

taradon

07-02-2002, 05:55 PM

Hubs are 280 each not per side.

Rob, I meant the tug of war, Corey's truck looks like it has serious power eh! whats your guess on his horse power Rob?

Don

Rabid Rhino

07-03-2002, 07:22 AM

I'm in the UK building a buggy which up until recently was based on Toyota running gear.

I've got the chance to buy a pair of brand new 900 axels.

There's 2 front & 2 rear for sale all wrapped in the factory grease paper.
I'd like to go rear wheel steer. 900 axels come in 5 parts - Diff, axels & hubs. Could I buy 2 front axels & bolt in a rear diff ? Would the wheels all spin in the same direction ?

Next Question

Please hear me out.....I've already bought my wheels & tyres. 39.5/18.5/15 boggers on 12x15 MT beadlocks. To get the set of 5 over here cost me £3,600 that's over $5,000 !!!! I can't afford to sell them cos I'll lose too much despite they're only a few months old & unused.
Is there any way you guys can see for machining up an adapter from the unimog to the Toyota bolt pattern.
On top of that seeing as they're only 15" rims it looks a bit tight in there for a disc. Will anything fit & if so what ?

I'm really new to these unimog axels and any fabricators reading this who may be able to help please contact me..... jnunespe@gcr.com

Thanks

Joe

Wolfgang

07-04-2002, 02:50 PM

The hubs we make are from Chromo 40/2 steel. The splines are made in the same factory in Germany who made the original Unimog hubs. They fit with the same precision. It must be a press fit or they wear out very quick. The brake rotors are vented and easy to get from a local store in USA. The calipers are not the floating type. They are 4 piston calipers and also to get easy in a local parts store. It is also possible to run 2 of these 4 piston calipers on one wheel just in case you like to have more stopping power!

www.killeraxles.com

We also sell used 404 axles

Wolfgang:rolleyes:

coachgeo

07-04-2002, 06:16 PM

Wolfgang and Taradon.... I have air assist brakes on my mog. How do I set this up with disk brakes like your kit?

Again a distant conversion but curious

Wolfgang

07-05-2002, 01:05 PM

@9volt
there is absolutely no bearing problem w. speed over 60 mile. I do it almost every day and never had a problem. The temp. at the hubs after 1 hour with 65 mile is about 140 F.
But it´s no fun to go faster than 70 miles.

@teradon
It´s always a need to run cool brakes, spec. on heavy trucks.
Stopping produces heat!

@cachgeo
There schould be no problem to run our disc brake set up with the air assist.

www.tibus-offroad.com

coachgeo

07-05-2002, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Wolfgang
@9volt
there is absolutely no bearing problem w. speed over 60 mile. I do it almost every day and never had a problem. The temp. at the hubs after 1 hour with 65 mile is about 140 F.
But it´s no fun to go faster than 70 miles.

[SNIP]

ok Wolfgang can you set up for several 404 rigs in your area to do test runs on that. It would be great to put this argument to rest with actually data.

Most seem to say damage will occur but no one has any actuall data to back it up that I know of.

Do you run synthetics in your axles that u drive 65mph with? You mention 140 degrees reached. Do you have a guage attached to your axles, or are u using an external thermomenter?

I would certainly love to travel at highway speeds and I think my rigs moto will be capable of it buttt.... I cant afford replacing parts all the time.

Wolfgang

07-05-2002, 02:16 PM

@coachgeo
look, i like to build and sell Unimog axles stuff. So it is normal for me to test as much as possible. For this reason i shipped my truck to Moab this eastern. i drive the truck on the "Autobahn" in Germany.
For temp. test i use an infrared-gun. That works perfect. You stop and check all temps in seconds.
It´s always better to use synt.oil.
But like i said before, it´s no fun to go fast with big axles and big tires but it is technicaly possible.

www.portalaxles.com

ryeguy

07-05-2002, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Wolfgang
The temp. at the hubs after 1 hour with 65 mile is about 140 F.
But it´s no fun to go faster than 70 miles.

I'd be a bit concerned about 140F. I just looked up in my handy-dandy little Shell lubricants book.
Spirax HD 75W90, HD 80W90, Dentax 80W90 have max operating range temp's of 35C/95F
Spirax HD 85W140 has a max operating range temp of 40C/104F

The rep said 180F absolute max, but that was off the record.

Their industrial synthetic oils have far better spec's but no operating range temp's in my book. But they aren't multi-weight oils, either.

Considering that my NP203/NP205 case reads 125-135F outside the case, but my temp gauge tapped into the case reads another 50F (really), I think this is worth more discussion. 'Specially when these cases have lots more oil in them than the portals. I'm running synthetics in everything, too. I've toasted one NP203 so far...

--Rob

Wolfgang

07-05-2002, 03:14 PM

now i am confused
So you can not go across Arizona in the summer time with Shell oil in your axles? The outside temp there is higher than the Shell oil can handle? There must be something wrong.

I had the same temps on my Suburban and my son´s Dodge M37.
The TCase temp was 180F.

The av. temp on my portals was 40-45 C. You can easy touch the hubs.
I am going to make some tests on other trucks. I keep you informed.

www.portalaxles.com

XTRMTOY

07-05-2002, 03:31 PM

Ryeguy,
Don't worry about the quoted temperature for these gear oils and if 140F is as hot as the oil gets it will not be an issue. The recommended temperatures in the Shell Handbook refer to outside temps and are only a guideline. What limits the temps of API GL-5 gear oils is the extreme pressure (EP) additives used. These EP additives are sulphur based and when heated above 90-95C (roughly 200F), the suphur can start to react with yellow metals such as bronze and brass. The yellow metals will turn black from the chemical reaction. The other reason I would not want to see temps above the 90-95C is that the oil while oxidize at a very fast rate when you get to those temps. As a general guideline here are the temps I recommend for the Spirax oils:

Spirax HD 80W90 : -27C to 95C
Spirax HD 75W90 : -40C to 95C
Spirax HD 85W140 : -12C to 95C
Spirax S75W90: -40C to 100-110C (full PAO synthetic)

If no yellow metals are present, then you can take them to higher temps, but the viscosity (oil film) will diminishe so you will have to make sure the viscosity of the oil at theoperating temp. is above the minimum requirement.
As for the Dentax oils, they do not have any EP additives in them and are therefore not limited because of it. Of course since they have no EP, you can't use them for a diff application.

As another piece of info a typical class 8 highway truck rear diff typically operate between 200-250F on a hot summer day.

Mat
PS. I work for Shell as a Tech Advisor

ryeguy

07-05-2002, 04:36 PM

*grin*

That makes me feel better now. The local sales rep was basically telling me to get coolers on both T-cases, 'cause I was on the fine line, and that's why one T-case burned up. I'm no oil expert, just going by what the book (and he) said.

--Rob

Originally posted by XTRMTOY
Ryeguy,
Don't worry about the quoted temperature for these gear oils and if 140F is as hot as the oil gets it will not be an issue. The recommended temperatures in the Shell Handbook refer to outside temps and are only a guideline. What limits the temps of API GL-5 gear oils is the extreme pressure (EP) additives used. These EP additives are sulphur based and when heated above 90-95C (roughly 200F), the suphur can start to react with yellow metals such as bronze and brass. The yellow metals will turn black from the chemical reaction. The other reason I would not want to see temps above the 90-95C is that the oil while oxidize at a very fast rate when you get to those temps. As a general guideline here are the temps I recommend for the Spirax oils:

Spirax HD 80W90 : -27C to 95C
Spirax HD 75W90 : -40C to 95C
Spirax HD 85W140 : -12C to 95C
Spirax S75W90: -40C to 100-110C (full PAO synthetic)

If no yellow metals are present, then you can take them to higher temps, but the viscosity (oil film) will diminishe so you will have to make sure the viscosity of the oil at theoperating temp. is above the minimum requirement.
As for the Dentax oils, they do not have any EP additives in them and are therefore not limited because of it. Of course since they have no EP, you can't use them for a diff application.

As another piece of info a typical class 8 highway truck rear diff typically operate between 200-250F on a hot summer day.

Mat
PS. I work for Shell as a Tech Advisor

coachgeo

07-06-2002, 09:30 AM

How does vehicle weight play into the bearings and oiling issues. Tibus Im sure you are driving a truck modified to Mog 404 Axles. This rig is far lighter than a Mog itself.

Iffff a 404 mog could travel safely and comfortably at 65mph the work load on the axil is more cause of vehicle weight right?

My point being as you make your measurements and do your test if vehicle weight increases the work load of the axle then people need to know the weight of the vehicle tested with to better evaluate your data.

Wolfgang

07-06-2002, 01:54 PM

coachgeo
the weight of my truck is about 5500lbs.(not far lighter)
Take a look at the bearings and you´ll see they are a lot bigger than Dana 60 or Hummer wheel bearings. There is no problem with load and speed, but dont think about a comfortable ride with your Mog at 65miles.
As i said before, Mog axles are good for a speed up to 80 miles or so, but they are not comfortable. All heavy axles are not comfortable. In my opinion are the Mog axles the first choice for serious Offroading, but not for highway use with speeds over 70 miles. Be glad if you can go 70 miles/h with your Mog.
Be careful with the brakes. Most axle failures are due to overheated drum brakes!

If you like to go faster with the portal axles, you have to change the ratio, that means you have to use a different centersection, like Ford 9" or Dana 60.
Have fun with you Mog!!
Wolfgang

www.unimogaxles.com

coachgeo

07-06-2002, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Wolfgang
coachgeo
the weight of my truck is about 5500lbs.(not far lighter)

How much does a mog 404 weigh again ?

Take a look at the bearings and you´ll see they are a lot bigger than Dana 60 or Hummer wheel bearings. There is no problem with load and speed,

I'll have to take your word for that having never had any of these apart myself. Im sure if anyone disagrees they will say so here.

but dont think about a comfortable ride with your Mog at 65miles.

Comfort is relative word. Besides upgraded seats and seats with their own suspension can make a huge differnece from what I understand. Up grades in steering may help too. Im not looking for a cushy ride nor do I expect one. 60 -65 would be a great crusing speed ifffff it did not burn up components.

As i said before, Mog axles are good for a speed up to 80 miles or so,

Well, that is where we all need to see data. Your business will bloom if you can "stronglyyyyy" show this to be true, cause it does go against the Unimog groups consensus. If you are right this opens up more possilbities for Mog axle uses and Mog modifiers.

but they are not comfortable. All heavy axles are not comfortable. In my opinion are the Mog axles the first choice for serious Offroading, but not for highway use with speeds over 70 miles. Be glad if you can go 70 miles/h with your Mog.
Be careful with the brakes. Most axle failures are due to overheated drum brakes!

If you like to go faster with the portal axles, you have to change the ratio, that means you have to use a different centersection, like Ford 9" or Dana 60.

Now that is something I did not know you could do. What is more expensive?... creating a hybrid or having an engineer design then have made a new ring and pinioun for the Mog axle... hmmm.

Have fun with you Mog!!
Wolfgang

www.unimogaxles.com

Thanks, have fun testing and keep us posted. Do you know any other rigs capable of 60-65 with mog axles that can assist you in data collection? Need to avaid chances of people saying ur data is trumped or biased cause ur trying to sell axles

Wolfgang

07-07-2002, 01:43 AM

A hybrid axle is not possible to use in a Unimog.
For producing ring and pinion with a different ratio, i need at least 50 orders. Then i can make it.

wolfgang

www.killeraxles.com

coachgeo

07-07-2002, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Wolfgang
A hybrid axle is not possible to use in a Unimog.
For producing ring and pinion with a different ratio, i need at least 50 orders. Then i can make it.

wolfgang

www.killeraxles.com

Well.... first we need to know for sure that turning our 404's into "fast axles" is not going to burn them up.

You seem to be the only one saying the 404 axles wont burn up. So how do u propose to test the burn up theory. Can you put a set of axles on a truck and run them in some races, well at least around a race track since you would be to slow to actually race. Or do an endurance run as publicity for your axles with rebuilt axles. Either on a Race track or even the Autoban (how long is the Autoban?) When race over you have a neautral shop tear the axle apart and report their findings.

Ryeguy... what about you folk. If either of you two prove that the 404 axle wont burn up ur sales is going to go up. Right now your customers are limited to trailer queens. Proving the axles wont burn up at highway speeds will increase your customer Base.

coachgeo

07-07-2002, 07:18 AM

The historic speed related "weak point" in the Unimog axles, was and
still is the tail shaft bearings. With the standard ratio axles, higher
speeds translate to increased tail shaft RPM and the bearing fails.
There have also been issues with wheel hub gears. (In fact the factory
just approved increasing the lube quantity in the wheel hubs of
contemporary Unimogs in 2001).

The commercial 404 specifications, with 10.5-20 tires, call for a
maximum speed of 95 km/h (59.0 mph) in 6th, however, you have to
recognize that in the factory's thinking no one would operate at this
speed, for more than a short distance (5-25 km). The only, sustained
speed, long duration testing ever done was at 70 km/h for ten hours.

There are plenty of documented axle problems, here in the U.S., with
heavily laden Unimogs, going long distances, at high speeds. Granted
these were 406, 424, 435 and 437 models, not 404's. However, they share
the same design concepts.

We had both axle and transmission failures with a BLM U1200 fire truck.
When we took it to the factory engineering and service folks at Gaggenau
and explained they were on a 215 mile fire response on the interstate
highway system, going as fast as the Unimog and grade allowed. The
Germans all told us the same thing: "We never planned for a Unimog to be
used like that. That's really too bad."

Jack Russell

coachgeo

07-07-2002, 07:22 AM

Snip

Being a little worried about what affect (highway sustained speeds on a U1550L) that would have on the drive train
I asked Sean's German engineer who designs and builds his race trucks and customers machines what happens?? He stated that the first thing to worry about are the seals. The sustained high speeds will burn up the seals. I guess if the seal goes; the oil goes; and them the bearing goes.

Snip

Wolfgang

07-07-2002, 02:33 PM

The speed limit for trucks over 3,5tons GVW in Germany is 50miles/H or 80km/h. I personaly use the Mog axles since 5 Years in different rigs. I never had a blown a seal, because i changed the old ones when i installed the axles.
What do you want now..a race car or a offraod vehicle?
Keep in mind that a super swamper or a Michelin or the Nato tires or any other tire on the Mog are not rated for a speed over 65miles. It doesn´t make sence to build high speed rated tires if it is forbidden to go faster than 50 miles/h. I would say you blow the tires before you have to change a seal.
If you like to go faster than 70 miles with your Mog, you have to put a V8 in.
Btw on the Dakar rallye were some Mogs with top speeds of 100miles and more.
I dont know how long the Autobahn is. I would guess about 10000km. It´s the only road in the world (as far as i know) without a speed limit. If i like to go fast, i take my Porsche (170miles/h). For offroad i take my rig with Mog axles. With this combination i made long runs(with the Mog axles) with 65miles/h and i never blew a seal or bearing because the bearings and seals are made of the same material like all others. Why schould they blow???? If the temp is ok, the bearings and seals shouldn´t make a problem.

Has anybody tested a Rockwell axle at 90miles speed?
I know about oil leaking axles on all the Van´s if they go on the Autobahn with speeds about 100miles/h because they are running far to hot! I have a oil leaking Dana 44 on my Grand Wagoneer when i push him to the top speed.

I really dont know what your problem is.

Wolfgang

www.unimogaxles.com

Wolfgang

07-07-2002, 03:18 PM

here some tech. data
Unimog 437 240HP 90km/h
Unimog 437 211HP 84km/h
Unimog 437 156HP 83km/h
Unimog 435 170HP 107km/h
Unimog 404 82HP 95 km/h
Unimog 404 110HP 100km/h
Unimog 406 84HP 80km/h
Unimog 416 100HP 85km/h

Do you think they build the axles exact for this speed and you cannot go 10km/h faster? oh boy!

coachgeo

07-07-2002, 03:19 PM

Tibus... I mentioned race only cause its a way to put the axles in a demanding sitation that makes for a good controlled test. Thats it.

Lots of folks are staying away from Mog axles cause of potential damage at highway speeds. Your the one saying the axles can go 80mph with out damage. Im only asking for data to back that up. I have no intent to go more than an "average" of 55 mph in my rig for several reasons with one being buring up the tranny and another the axles.

Guess you dont have data to back up ur claims and you dont intend to provide it.

Ryeguy.... do u agree with the 80mph with out damage? What do u think is the upper limit speed with Mog 404 axles? What about the "average" sustained cruising speed?

weps

07-07-2002, 08:10 PM

All these questions of "Highway speeds" and 404 'Mog axles has me a bit confused. Do you REALLY expect ANYTHING with 40"+ offroad tires to handle/drive well at highway speeds? My M715 has 40" swampers, and can do about 55 mph. And it sucks at that. PLUS the braking from that speed quickly enters the anti-lock phase..... Is this your 1st "Offroad" truck? You may want to put a tow rig and trailer into your plans;)

coachgeo

07-07-2002, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by weps
All these questions of "Highway speeds" and 404 'Mog axles has me a bit confused. Do you REALLY expect ANYTHING with 40"+ offroad tires to handle/drive well at highway speeds? My M715 has 40" swampers, and can do about 55 mph. And it sucks at that. PLUS the braking from that speed quickly enters the anti-lock phase..... Is this your 1st "Offroad" truck? You may want to put a tow rig and trailer into your plans;)

:rolleyes: These are GENERAL questions. :rolleyes: Questions raised cause Tibus said Mog Axles can go 80mph with out damage. Lots of folk out there are looking and planning mods for their future rigs. I found Tibus information to clash with what others say so I pinned him down on it for the sake of those that may be lead to beleave they can run Mog axles with out potential for damage. Esp. beefy rigs that will be driven to events. Yeah.. they wont be driven at 80 but they may be between 55 and 60 which some still say will damage the axle. Mine is one of them that will be driven to events cause it is my camper. I got to watch out for the Tranny first but thats a whole nother post.

Antidotal info from Tibus and Mogers seem to clash so I pushed for empirical evidence. That would be GREAT info to have. I can understand the cost in dollars and time in creating empirical evidence so guess we gotta wait longer.

Oh... as to first off road rig... my daily driver/only vehicle is a well equiped 97 TJ designed purposfully to be a daily driver/offroader. (35" MTRs, 456 gears, Atlas II, appropriate lift etc. ) cause till recent I could not afford two vehicles etc. I just added the Mog to my vehicle family. In the near future I may not be able to afford two car payments again so I need to get things payed for, fixed and running good and "efficiently" real soon.

ryeguy

07-08-2002, 09:42 AM

First things first, we can't just say "80mph is going to burn them up". What's really important is the RPM that the gears and shafts are spinning. 55mph with 40" tires is the same as 60mph with 44's and so-on.

Tibus is correct about the bearings. They are huge. And they are oil bathed. But that's not what we are talking about.

Top speed? I'm not going to question the Mog engineers. The FSM's that I've read state 55mph sustained, 60mph on occasion with the factory (40" tall) tires. Some people say this is the Mog speed, defined by the engine (and lack of HP to go faster) and doesn't necessarily apply to just the axles. And the transmissions do burn up too, but there are kits to replace the bushings with bearings in there too.

Can the axles live at higher speeds? Tibus says they can, but I'm just not convinced of that (yet). Before I could say that, I'd want to replace the bushings in the front axle (that support the shaft side of the CV) with bearings.

What I can say is that I've had no problems with my Blazer at highway speeds and 44's. But then again, I'm only pushing the spec by 10%. And I have no need/desire to push the truck much faster. How much safety factor is in there, again, I can't say.

--Rob

Originally posted by coachgeo
Ryeguy.... do u agree with the 80mph with out damage? What do u think is the upper limit speed with Mog 404 axles? What about the "average" sustained cruising speed?