Confronting People

[steveh]

Confronting people is a good thing, as long as it does not get out of hand.

Last Winter our club did a Snow Patrol on Iron Mtn, and some dick heads here wheeling off to the side through the trees and breaking thorugh the snow to the dirt. I confronted them very politly and asked them if they would stop and get back on the road. They completly ignored my requstes and reasons I gave them stating they were "Rubicon" people and could drive thier rigs in that area.

The other thing they said that pissed me off was that the only way they would listen to me is if I could show them a badge and a gun :mad3:

Well, in hind sight, I should not have confronted the group of 3 rigs alone, the other guys in our group should have been with me, and maybe they would have listened to our reasons.

Anyway, expect some people to just flat out be dicks about being asked to stop destructive behavior.

Long story short, lets have suggestions on how we can deal with dickheads without having the "Badge & Gun" that the "Rubicon" People need to see to listen. Makes me wish I had a badge to flash ....

Note: It offends me they even refered to themselfs as "Rubicon People"

[Brandon]

When I talked to Hippy Hunter last year he said he would shoot me if I came in his camp, nice eh?

Gotta asses the situation before ya get shot :eek:

[Rubicrawler]

Steve- you did all you could do in that situation. Having a couple of others from your group may have helped, but I doubt it :(

Food for thought :idea:

I noticed that search and rescue people on the trail were waring orange vests. It made them look official! I wonder if we (FOTR) could pull that off? I don't know, just a thought.

[4x4Grrl]

I am a bold bitch. So I think I will just carry around a little pad and a pen and after they deny my request as such I will just take down there license plate numbers. What are they going to do? Hurt me? That would be the wrong frigging move. I don't take shit and I have ALOT of friends, not to mention ALOT of Peace Officer friends. Some of which are Rubicon Cops now. The way I see it, if they want to tangle, lets Rock! If they can't respect then they don't deserve the right.

[Rubicrawler]

Originally posted by 4x4Grrl
I am a bold bitch.


I can't imagine anyone giving you sh!t! I'd want you on my side during a brawl :D

[steveh]

Originally posted by 4x4Grrl
I am a bold bitch. So I think I will just carry around a little pad and a pen and after they deny my request as such I will just take down there license plate numbers.

Great point, I had wished I would have done that or taken some digis / Vidi's.

Later in the day when we met the Ranger he asked if we had any problems, and maybe he could have done some follow-up with license plate and or pics.

I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I have heard Law Enforcrmnet won't act on that type of evidence. But at last nights meeting Jeff Neeves asked for us to provide it.

And ya Kelly, I don't know ya real well yet, but I'd have your back or any one elese for that mater that needed it. (Not that you don't already have some awsome backup with the POR club)

[Jeepndel]

There are some ways to do this and what is being talked about here is in the right track. See my article on motorized outlaws at www.delalbright.com/outlaws.htm

Taking pictures, getting license plates, remembering what the driver looks like, and reporting this to the Sheriff and/or USFS is a GREAT way to do some follow up.
Del

[Dan-H]

I talked with the Jeff Neeves (undersheriff and sheriff elect) last night about this topic.

I said quite bluntly if I'm wheeling with my wife and 2 year old, I'm not going to be confronting a drunken yahoo just because he might be out "tearing it up".

I asked how can law enforcement be contacted since usually we are out of cell phone range.

He said Eldo Co. Sheriff does not have CBs

It was suggested a ham could hit a repeater and make a phone call and call it in. He said the real issue is unless they are in the area, the yahoos would likely be gone by the time they arrived.


I asked what the Sheriff Dept would do with photo evidence of trail abuse? They said they would not likely be able to prosecute unless the act was witnessed by one of the deputy's.

But he did say they would follow up any complaints with photo evidence of trail abuse.

He also stated deputys are being issued laptops and they are using it to track warnings and complaints received. This allows the deputies to quickly share the information and to be able to search.

So, if a "yahoo" is a repeat offender, and multiple complaints are lodged, I would expect at least a phone call or perhaps a visit.

Certainly if the "yahoo" is stopped for something else and his name pops up with a list of complaints it might help to define a trend.

- Dan

(note "yahoo" is my wording, not the Sheriff's ).

[4x4Grrl]

Please do not get me wrong. I sincerely do not like violence, especially on the trail and we are all trying to vacation and have a good time. I am just stating that I am not afraid to say something to an individual. Trust me, my first attempt to reach the individual(s) would be of a very reasonable way of explaining why. If that should not be adequate, than I would just take down the information via by paper or just repeat their license numbers until I have them memorized in order to write them down. Then I would just turn and walk away. Can't say that I wouldn't snub them like I thought they were the low lives of the earth or anything though. :D

[0ILBURNER]

Originally posted by Dan-H

I asked what the Sheriff Dept would do with photo evidence of trail abuse? They said they would not likely be able to prosecute unless the act was witnessed by one of the deputy's.


- Dan



I'm just visiting here, but have to ask a question towards the statement above:

Are there not laws in place against "destruction of public property" or such? If so, then technically a civillian has the right to make a "citizen's arrest" & prosecute the offender. Granted, trying to arrest a drunken yahoo could easily result in violence - I understand refraining from this action.
But you're saying that even if an individual reports a crime as a Witness & has photographic evidence to back up his charges, unless the police catch the people in the act, they will get off?? I don't understand.:confused:

[steveh]

100% Agree on no violence, and I'm sorry if I insinuated I would resort to such. What I really mean is is maybe when some one is confronted by more than one person reasonbly asking them to stop wgatever abuse is going on, it may be easir to educate someone. It really is about education, a lot of people really don't relize they are doing something wrong.

It takes guts to say something, and there's a good chance it may not help at the time, but if enough people step up, then the abusers will learn. I'm not saying that every time we wnat to say something to someone it has to be a group, just that if someone hears it enough from different sources mayme it starts to sink in .... or when there's no seat a the campfire maybe a light goes on ....

[smurfsdad]

I know its wrong, but why not just beat their sorry ass to oblivion. At least it might keep that one ASS from coming back.

[Booger Weldz]

how effective are pix with license plates? i wheel with my family or in small groups who are no match for a bunch of drunken idiots with guns, etc. but i ALWAYS have a camera. i think pix in the general forum of blatant idiots trashing the trails or dumping garbage will get mega attention from a majority of the 12000 or so of us and someone will know the guilty parties...

i saw a lot of atv's passing everyone off the beaten path do to the massive traffic, but i also saw a lot of incapable vehicles spinning up there open diffs creating terrible ruts in the wet areas so others could pass too...

i pray , but it seems that eventually everywhere is gonna end up like bassi, i just hope my son and his kids get to have opportunities ive gotten to really enjoy it in double low....

[Rubicrawler]

Originally posted by smurfsdad
I know its wrong, but why not just beat their sorry ass to oblivion. At least it might keep that one ASS from coming back.

Yeah Nick, it's wrong, but I know just how you feel:mad: When I was a young man, my Dad would kick my ass if I treated the environment the way some do today. I guess more Dad's should be kickin' ass! I came REALLY close this weekend.

[Binderfan2002]

I might be a Newbie to this board but i have loved wheeling since i can remeber. I havent relized tell last weekend how many a$$holes out there on con that should not be there at all. I can definitly say there were a few guys that i would have loved to put under a tire. Its not right but if you cant handle the traffic or waits dont be there. One thing i saw most is impasiant people. mainly bikers and ATV's. Just because they can fit between trees they feel as if they can be there. They need to be on the trail where everyone else is. Im not saying its only them. No one shoudl cut a corner because somone broke. You just have to wait it out and if all posible help and do what you can to get everyone moving again. And as said before, educate those who needs to be educated because yeah its true most of them really dont know what there doing. To those who just dont care are the ones that should be reported. All we can do is try are best and keep out eyes open to how people are acting. if they are acting irrsponsable we need to let them know and hope if gets through there head. If we are lucky they wil lrelize where we are coming from and be one of us.

Steve

[kidwired]

they want badges huh?
ok how about this yrs ago when a local park was threatening to close mtn bike trails they started a volunteer patrol. that trail is still open 15 yrs l8r.

we could start a RUBICON TRAIL PATROL. we could have all the pretenses of being official. Stickers for rigs, hats and badges etc.

http://www.shomertec.com/products/badges_502_crime_prevention.jpg

http://www.shomertec.com

a kind of a Guardian Angels thing.

[ironpig70]

from what i read 30k++ people hit the con in a 3 month period and if i did my math correct 10k per month divide by 30 days that 333 people a day on the con. now if you don't want to wait then they way i see it you need to go during non peak months

remember when confronting people to be polite and don't be accusing towards them i have never been on the con and if not properly marked there may be a trail already cut by others leaving the designated trail and i not knowing am following an illegal trail.

[kidwired]

the people that i see going off the trail are usuall not even aware of the concept of "illegal trails". they just think its a free for all.

[Jeepndel]

As a citizen, never be confused that you CAN do something. You must have a witness, a photo helps, AND be able to identify the driver. You can file a complaint with the DA and/or the Sheriff, and/or the USFS if they're off the trail, for example.

What if we did start the volunteer patrol idea mentioned here. I did mention that to a Sheriff's deputy the other night. He liked it.

What if we started POSTING violators, yahoos, etc. on THIS web site/BBS or the Friends of the Rubicon web site???? Photo, name if we have it, rig name, event, location, etc. And just make fools of them to start with. Maybe a phone call from a member of FOTR as a warning to behave or have a complaint filed?
Del

[Jeepndel]

By the way, the BlueRibbon Coalition web site is:
www.sharetrails.org

thanks, Del

[PJNTJ]

My thoughts:

The Northeast Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs has begun a pilot program with New Hampshire Fish and Game. It is called the "Safety Patrol Program". The emphasis is on education and not enforcement. I don't think we as wheelers are properly trained to enforce the laws and I'm not sure the authorities want us to.

So, when confronting a Yahoo, renegade or what-have-you, the pair of Safety patrol folks simply explain that they are there to educate this person as to what they may be doing wrong, and not to be a "rent-a-cop" or tattle tail. Through education of the laws the hope is to get more people to obey the laws.

Anyhoo, I'm thinking this may be a valid approach to your problems out west.

.02 Paul.

[StinkBug]

Originally posted by kidwired
they want badges huh?
ok how about this yrs ago when a local park was threatening to close mtn bike trails they started a volunteer patrol. that trail is still open 15 yrs l8r.

we could start a RUBICON TRAIL PATROL. we could have all the pretenses of being official. Stickers for rigs, hats and badges etc.

http://www.shomertec.com/products/badges_502_crime_prevention.jpg

http://www.shomertec.com

a kind of a Guardian Angels thing.

Thats exactly what i was thinking. Some people wont listen at all unless you have a badge. funny thing is, it doesn't matter what badge, be it safety patrol, security, sherriff, FBI or CIA. I think having a group of vollunteers with special shirts or jackets and badges similar to the pictured ones would really help. If I lived closer i'd Vollunteer, and be there every weekend. Wish i could.

Dallas

[Whitewater]

ironpig, I'd venture to guess that those #'s are a bit high, regardless.
Late last summer I took a couple people up in my truck that had not been before but before I went I thouroughly versed them in the aspects of tread lightly and the reprocussions of not doing so. We were nearly to Little sluice when we came upon a broken rig blocking the trail, there were about 20 people waiting for this guy to finish his repairs so they could move on. Well unfortunatly some jerk decides he's going to drive around. I heard the cracking of branches in the trees and immediatly went after him. I was as cordial and polite as I could be at the time :mad: I tried explaining to the guy about treading lightly and staying on the trail. He pretty much refused to look me in the eye and said "if the soil was wet that he wouldn't have done it" :rolleyes: I then explained to him that he still made tracks where there should be none and told him people would see those and probably follow them thereby creating a new spur. He kinda shrugged and drove off.
My point of telling this story is that although I wasn't able to get the guy to reverse and go back where he came from I planted that seed that there are people watching and that what he was doing is the reason so many trails are being closed. Hopefully he will think twice next time, as will the 20 or so people nearby that heard me confront him.
Just let these people know what they are doing is wrong, tell them why and if they continue to do it get pictures or video and post them here or contact law enforcement if necessary. I'm glad to see more of us getting vigilant and I hope this trend continues.

[kidwired]

Stinkbug, yup i remeber me and my rowdy buds (along time ago) were patying late one night, and it carried into the street a neighbor came out and asked us to keep it down, we told him to f' off (we were kids) the he flashes a badge. we shutup and moved on. hell it could have been ANYTHING!! he coulda been a fireman or a night watchmen lol

its like whitewater says, no need for confrontation just education and a polite "please keep our trail open" if they wanna be assholes get a license #.

[Jeepndel]

Not just a license number. Get a photo too of the offense (digi works great). But for sure, write down, who, what when, etc. and witnesses. AND be able to identify the driver. Then you got something you can hand authorities (and I'd be happy to follow up on with the law guys to make sure something gets done.)

Hell, I'd even write em a letter from the Friends of the Rubicon if I can track em down. And post their photo on our FOTR web site.
Del

[kidwired]

pjntj- can we get more info on that program? I'd be interestred to see any materials/instructions that they provide for the patrols.

[FULLSIZE]

i'm with kid, a volunteer security patrol(kinda like the gaurdian angels) would be a good thing. not only to stop assholes from doing stupid shit and trailblazing, but to educate them on why its wrong. :beer:

[Jeepndel]

I'm going to start a new, easier to id thread on this. I've got some things to report. Look for:
Rubicon Volunteer Trail Patrol.

Del

[PJNTJ]

pjntj- can we get more info on that program? I'd be interestred to see any materials/instructions that they provide for the patrols.

Sure! The President of the Assoc. is Rhonda Pratte. I'm not sure of her email though. The VP is Scott Hatch, he can be contacted at NE4WI@hotmail.com. The Assoc. site is http://www.nea4wd.org/index.html , but there is not too much there about it. I'm thinking it would be best if you contacted Scott or Rhonda about the program to get the "Official" word on it.

Paul

[Jeepndel]

This thread has moved.
Look for Rubicon Volunteer Trail Patrol.
Del

[kidwired]

BTW steveh, I was at that snow patrol, we ran on friday and bailed out sat. i was rogkdogs shotgun on fri's midnight run ;)

sorry OT, I will contact those guys to find out more on their trail patrol.

Thanks pjntj