Any thought's on Ned Bacon's rant against organized rock crawling as it's now practiced? (He's done a couple of pieces in the 4WPW rag, where I get -all- my wheeling info, on how it's a bad thing for wheeling in general.) His basic premise is that it should be held on man-made obstacles in stadiums and/or arenas in order to make it safer and keep greens from using it as amunition for trail closure efforts.

I think he's full of shit.

Originally posted by Lance
I think he's full of shit.

I've met him a few times, hell I even have a set of his tires on my cruiser. And honestly, I find what he says extremely one sided. A few months back I had seen him that morning driving to work in his power stroke diesel and that night I got the 4WP's rag in the mail and there we was ranting on and on about how he hates people who drive big ass trucks and how he drives his little 914 everyday just to save gas and be the "Green wheeler"

And basically after that, I don't even read those pages of ramblings.

Originally posted by Lance
I think he's full of shit.

No really, tell us how you REALLY feel! :laughing:
I quit reading his rants a long time ago :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I think he's a nice guy.... But I still think he's full of shit. ;)

I think he's a comedian. Oh and I could give a sh!t what he thinks

What I don't get is why when he has competed in competitons himself he says that? Is it me or is that a double standard? Maybe I am wrong.

He writes what the editors tell him :D

Or maybe he's just goofy like that.

my thoughts exactly 4x4grl ....

Honestly I've never read any of his stuff.

I read 4x4 magazines like I read my Playboy magazines :flipoff2:

With one hand????? :flipoff2:

Thats just Ned Bacons way, I have wheeled with him before hes just an opinonated guy..

Much like the rest of us I suppose

I don't think it's a double standard. He competes and he's voicing his opinion on how he thinks the sport could be made better. He's full of crap, but that's his opinion. Now saying he is a green wheeler and then doesn't follow through makes him an idiot, hypocrite and full of crap.

:rant on: Does he not go to the cleanups at these events or does he just compete? After the Moonrocks events the BLM personel was very pleased with our efforts and had a great impression of our sport and the people involved with it. If anyones opinion matters I think theirs is who I care about. Ned seems like a nice enough guy but the sport started in the rocks and to try and contain it indoors or on a track is bullsh*t and the Greens are ignorant A-holes that can kiss my arss and we would just be giving in if we were to do this...:rant off:

Originally posted by skank da sock puppet
His basic premise is that it should be held on man-made obstacles in stadiums and/or arenas in order to make it safer

I don't have a problem with the sport taking this direction.

More locations, more exposure, more $$$$ in spectators, etc.

FYI Ned does not compete anymore. He is "boycotting" them.

Originally posted by DRM
I don't have a problem with the sport taking this direction. More locations, more exposure, more $$$$ in spectators, etc. Oh the pain..... I agree. Hmm 3,000 spectators or 30,000. Not to mention more coverage, look how stadium racing has evolved and promoted what used to be toy trucks playing in the sand with no one watching. Nope not saying take it away from the outdoors but with combined options it will draw bigger crowds. Bigger crowds means bigger purses. Bigger crowds means potentially more R&D in rock crawling styled trucks. Example: TuRDs and Stadium Racing.

As far as the rock racing aspect of it. Well, "GET IT,,, ARCA STYLE" ;)

Originally posted by DRM


I don't have a problem with the sport taking this direction.

More locations, more exposure, more $$$$ in spectators, etc.

Watching the crawling competitions outdoors, there are many different obstacles for people to watch competitors attempt.
The indoor/stadium runs are going to be one long pile of rocks, which will quickly become boring for spectators, especially when people start breaking in the middle and need to be dragged off.
Plus, the specators that are going to the outdoor crawling competitions know exactly what they're going to see. If you group the rockcrawling competition in with say, mud bogs and monster truck type jamborees, people will watch it as a curiosity, but most likely will lose interest fairly quickly.
Anyone not directly involved themselves in wheeling/building a rig, will see it as an amusing little sideshow that is interesting for approximately 10 minutes. JMO, for what that's worth

Everything Welby said, plus at a huge arena the spectators can't get close enough to the action to see the different lines the rigs are taking. It's the little details that you can only catch by close to the action that make it cool ;)

Supercrawling (indoor)
Motocrawling(outdoor)

Just like the bikes. Short technical courses in the winter when the stadiums are being hit up, and longer wicked courses for the summer.
Guys might even end up with indoor buggies, and outdoor buggies:eek:

It could get there:D

Dumb.......Gay..........Stupid

Hes probably pissed because his name is outta the spotlight and the new wheelers are in town.


LOL

Agree with lance, he is a hot head.
I always read those to get a chuckle out of them, it seems he will jumps side evey month in a new artilce

Has anyone here seen indoor trials motorcycle competitions? Those are very cool to watch, and it is not just 1 pile of rocks like someone said above. They use very interesting man made obstacles that are extremely challenging to cross. I have seen such things as steep man made waterfalls that had to be scaled(Only 1 rider made it to the top), moveable or unstable obstacles like barrels and huge power cable spools. Also creative use of seemingly small things can make interesting obstacles such as having to cross over those heavy concrete table/benches that you see in parks in such a way that makes it extremely difficult.

Side note:
Have you ever thought about driving over one of those? I have, and it looks like fun to me. I think it would take portal axles, and big tires if you were forced to drive down it the long way with tires on the benches, and axle going over the table.
End of side note.

If you lined up several of these type obstacles to make a run, and had like five runs to be judged on each run with a special theme specifically requiring a certain skill to complete like off camber course, high center course, climbing ability course, extreme maneuverability course etc..

Not saying that this is something that I would be interested in competing in, but I would watch it on TV, and go see it if it came to my town. It would get more people interested in the sort, and get more people out to the real world, real trail events. And with the right people promoting the event, it could provide ALLOT of money to go towards saving our trails, and funding new recreational areas.

Sean

Station is all over that issue.

Originally posted by mj
Station is all over that issue.


Well, there's alot of heavy machinery, paid people and $$$ involved in bringing in the dirt/rocks, etc. and setting up the course, and then in the teardown afterwards. Are the sponsors going to want to cover all of those costs, plus whatever money is in the purse for the winners and people in the top spots?
In the outdoor competitions, is there a fee for spectators, or do people just come out and watch for free? Let's say that there is alot of money put into setting up a course in an arena, and money put into advertising the first "Mega rock crawling championship" on banners, TV and the radio. How many people do you realistically think are going to want to part with 10 or 15 dollars to get in to see it?
Are the sponsors going to be thrilled when an arena built to hold 15,000 people is holding 500 or 1000 (optimistic) people to watch the event? Call me a pessimist, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Originally posted by Welby
....Call me a pessimist, but I'm trying to be realistic. Pessimist.

I'd seriously doubt that a promoter would attempt a single action attraction. If it was me... there would be various rock crawling courses center stage. Some big air jumps along the front rows and maybe throw in the technical climbing like that station was discussing.

Even in stadium racing and Monster Truck events, there is mini-moto's and quad races etc etc etc. Little diversions and added attractions.

You could have an evening event with activities for the spectators in the parking lot such as mini-Rubicon's, ramps and teeter toters. Yep done right I think you could draw a crowd and keep the active spectator happy.

Also on the note of being able to be up close and personal at an outdoor event. I think that those days are numbered. The first time someone gets killed by a flying u-joint chunk and the family sues the snot out of the promoter, driver etc etc etc. The promoters will be forced to move the crowd away or stop holding events as the cost to insure would be too much to turn a profit.

Just trying to be realistic. ;)

Talking to a couple of BFG people at the Reno CalRocs event, the general consensus if that for the sport to attract large manufactures (Jeep, Ford, etc) and for the sport to be seen as a test bed for new technology (Let's face it, that is the only reason Indy exists) is for the sport to move to a more spectator friendly venue. I also feel that the sport needs to move to an elimination format, where two teams run identical courses, loser walks, Rock Drags if you will. The crowds only come for three things, excessive use of the loud pedal, mass carnage, and women. During the CalRocs event much of the crowd lost interest is watching the Unlimited class, due to the use of technique verse HP.

My 2 cents

Joe

For one, I thought Bacon's commentary was right on the money. Well, maybe not all of it, but his opinion and mine of organized competition jibe. I believe rockcrawling is a slow, controlled and technical sport. It tends to appeal to only those that are into it in the first place.

Today's competition is more like rockracing; i.e., point it and gun it. Much of the technique is gone. Please note: This is not a jab or intended as disrespectful to all the people on this forum that DO compete. I think you guys are awesome and I'd wheel with any of you anytime. But the style of wheeling that's being pushed by these competitions is exactly the opposite of what I believe real rockcrawling is.

When you introduce uninitiated spectators to this sport, I believe they're there for the following: beer and carnage. If rolling and busting up your shit for some drunken yahoo who doesn't know rockcrawling from Rolling Rock is your thing, God love you. I'd rather roll and break my shit for the guys I regularly wheel with (grin).

Again, flame if you must, but no offense intended to the competitors on this board. Just my opinion.
Dion

I think......................................... Ah who cares what i think!

Originally posted by Welby

is there a fee for spectators, or do people just come out and watch for free

I believe the spectators were charged $5 or 10 per head @ Reno CalROCS. There were about 4000 people there....

Originally posted by Lance
I believe the spectators were charged $5 or 10 per head @ Reno CalROCS. There were about 4000 people there....

Any clue how many snuck in and didn't pay? :p

If calrocs can pull 4000 people out to somewhat remote areas (victorville comes to mind) then they should have no problem getting a decent size crowd to stadiums in large cities, especially with good promoting and well built courses. I know i'd be there in a second. outdoor crawling would still be the best tho. nothin like being close up on real obstacles set up by mother nature.

Dallas

Originally posted by Lance


I believe the spectators were charged $5 or 10 per head @ Reno CalROCS. There were about 4000 people there....

It was $10 per person, or $15 for both days.

Think if they took a few sections of chairs out of a place like the Metrodump (dome) and had rocks going up in teh stands..YOu would get some people close up, elevation change, and some carnage on multiple rolls:D
I would much rather shell out $10 to see crawlin, than monster trucks.....

i think his killer b finally stung him. the competetions, have done alot for the sport, got alot of people interested, and alot of r/d done.

I think Belly Dragger has a point. Calrocs and other competitions should make spectators sign a liability waiver. It would take long, but its too risky not to do. I wish I could say the people there (Like me and my friends who were there) would take responsibility for the risk they take, but this is not so. There is always someone who wants more money (9-11 victims' families?). I hope it never comes to a death, but you can never be too safe.

comps have been working well as part of larger venues. The comp that is part of the truckin' nationals in Phoenix is growing in popularity evey year. The promoter seemed very pleased with the results. The stands are always full. All they really need now is a first class course designer and some big names to show up. I would like to see the sport head in that direction for its own sake. Some killer man made courses to maximize the action, who knows how far the sport could go.

Originally posted by LordRatner
I think Belly Dragger has a point. Calrocs and other competitions should make spectators sign a liability waiver. It would take long, but its too risky not to do. I wish I could say the people there (Like me and my friends who were there) would take responsibility for the risk they take, but this is not so. There is always someone who wants more money (9-11 victims' families?). I hope it never comes to a death, but you can never be too safe.

waiver or not, if someone get's hurt and wants to sue, they can. Reglardless of if they signed a waiver or not. Unfortunately there are about a million ways for a sue happy person, or a sue happy family to get around the waiver and sue a promoter for an injury or death.

That's why you don't have to sign waivers to go see Pennywise, or Elton John. 1 it takes to damn long 2 they don't work.
:D:D

I read that article a while ago. Figured he was just :crybaby2: because he could not beat the big boys.

His rig was one of the biggest and baddest for quite a while. Still is a fairly nice rig but nothing compared to what else is out there now.

After reading all of his articles I am nothing more than annoyed by him.

Hell I was even annoyed by the pull pall writeup where he pulled strings to Winch all the way up one of the scree slopes near carson.

yeah, that was usefull

:rolleyes:

Then maybe a witness removal program?

http://www.cadaverinc.com/services.asp

"Rockracing" is just another facet of the sport. When I go archery hunting, I don't bitch about the rifle hunters because "they're too damn loud and they're giving the sport a bad name because people hate the NRA and soon they will shut down hunting for good and everybody will wish the rifle hunt never existed blah blah blah..."

Whatever. Nobody says Ned has to have anything to do with the competitions. If sunday drives up the canyon are more his style, more power to him. Not everybody is into what he's into.

Originally posted by LordRatner
Then maybe a witness removal program?

http://www.cadaverinc.com/services.asp

That's just plain wrong:barf: :barf:

Originally posted by Monkeyboy
He writes what the editors tell him :D


He is a hired gun. He writes and if they like then they pay him....This stuff is his own Ive heard him share his discontent myself.

Maybe if he had more fun during the comps he attended and placed better perhaps he wouldn't feel this way.....Or maybe he is just trying to enjoy regular trail such as rubicon that this brings attention to...Which he is trying to help keep open...Either way he is not the only one talking about moving the comps to fixed locations. Event figure heads are also talking about this...Who knows...Whou ld you'all like to sit in the stands for eight hours to watch some one else crawl rock in order to keep your trails free from greenie bashing...Or would it change a dam thing.

Not taking sides either way....Not sure fixed location wheelin would stop anyone from wanting to close the trails
:(

Originally posted by Blatant
For one, I thought Bacon's commentary was right on the money. Well, maybe not all of it, but his opinion and mine of organized competition jibe. I believe rockcrawling is a slow, controlled and technical sport. It tends to appeal to only those that are into it in the first place.

Today's competition is more like rockracing; i.e., point it and gun it. Much of the technique is gone. Please note: This is not a jab or intended as disrespectful to all the people on this forum that DO compete. I think you guys are awesome and I'd wheel with any of you anytime. But the style of wheeling that's being pushed by these competitions is exactly the opposite of what I believe real rockcrawling is.

When you introduce uninitiated spectators to this sport, I believe they're there for the following: beer and carnage. If rolling and busting up your shit for some drunken yahoo who doesn't know rockcrawling from Rolling Rock is your thing, God love you. I'd rather roll and break my shit for the guys I regularly wheel with (grin).

Again, flame if you must, but no offense intended to the competitors on this board. Just my opinion.
Dion

Same here. I also think it's gives the greenies more ammo. All they have to do is take a clip of some Jeep roaring WOT up a rock pile and then rolling to the bottom and show it to Joe "Dumbass" Public. The tell them that this is what we do and it's ruining the enviroment. And Guess What!! Joe "Dumbass" public agrees and more trails get closed.

Originally posted by Weasel


Same here. I also think it's gives the greenies more ammo. All they have to do is take a clip of some Jeep roaring WOT up a rock pile and then rolling to the bottom and show it to Joe "Dumbass" Public. The tell them that this is what we do and it's ruining the enviroment. And Guess What!! Joe "Dumbass" public agrees and more trails get closed.

And why couldn't they use that same video clip if it was in a stadium? :shaking: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Lance


And why couldn't they use that same video clip if it was in a stadium? :shaking: :rolleyes:

The stadium appears to be a controlled non-wilderness environment, to 'Joe Public' . Also an event held in a stadium appears to more legit then one held outdoors, due to the stadium, lights, technology, etc. An event in a stadium removes the outdoors as part of the equation. Events held outdoors appear to impact the environment despite the best efforts by the promoters to control, and lessen any / all such damage. It becomes a professional spectator event not a day outdoors enjoying our hobby.

Holding the events in a stadium also makes the event less approachable to the spectator, I.E. you don't see guys thinking they can outperform Big Foot. Hold an event outdoors and any yahoo that can make it to the location with his stock Heep will try to make the same obstacle, with all likely hood of damaging the area. Holes dug in the dirt, spilled fluids, or injury for roll over with further worsen the image of the sport. How many people were in the box this weekend with under equipment vehicles? We've all talked about the damage an under equipped vehicle can do to a trail.

Moving the Rock Crawling indoors will increase the number of people that can enjoy the event, increases awareness, provides a viable platform for broadcast, and may help to preserve our hobby.

He's just mad because he can't run with the best!.And hes the best just ask him.....its:rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow:

Originally posted by Blatant
I believe rockcrawling is a slow, controlled and technical sport. It tends to appeal to only those that are into it in the first place.

Today's competition is more like rockracing; i.e., point it and gun it. Much of the technique is gone.

So you dont think scaling up an obsticle with the pedal to the floor doesnt take technique? It takes more "technique" than crawling. Its not "finessing" it, but finesse doesnt necissarily imply a higher level of driving skill, just the inability to think and react quickly :D

:smokin: Bratcher

Ok.....I've been watching this for long enough, now hear me speak words of wisdom....:D :D

If we can create a more life like atmosphere in an arena, the indoor/arena events will work. Will it be as good as it is now for the spectator......NO, but the differences on what takes place and how the event is run, ie rules and course layout and etc. will be exciting for the main stream crowd. There are plans already in place for indoor events, it just a matter of time and $$$$$ to amke it happen. No it won't be what you see now, but it will be good and profitable for the competitors (unlike today).

The sport will evolve from what it is now, no stopping that:D

Ned has some fine points and some not so fine points, look what CalROCS has been trying to do, use private lands, not public (except for Moon Rocks) and we will continue to try and use non public lands (Carnage for the Con). It was my conversations with Ned that led CalROCS to seek out private lands, even thought the cost of doing business on private lands is nearly 3-4 times higher than public land use. For this I applaud Ned.

Rich
CalROCS

Here's the point of view of someone on the other side of the continent:

I've only SEEN him drive in videos, not only the comps he's entered but some other ones too, the Killer Bee is a favourite of the camera, for whatever reason. I've always been impressed with his technical driving style, he is one of those ones that always tries to 'crawl' ..........

- and there's the rub. I heard him say it, and I read him print it, but I think in general he is against the turn away from the sport as HE traditionally thinks of it, rock CRAWLING, towards what he sees it becoming, kind of combination of rock RACING and rock CLAWING up rock cliffs.

personally, I think ARCA and all of that is great and I really enjoy it. I'm just saying that I notice some 'traditional' wheelers have sort of turned their backs on rock crawling competitions since the first few competitions, more or less corresponding with a general move away from the traditional 'trials' type basis of the sport to a more spectator friendly hill climb type of event. So whenever I read the opinions of one of these people, I have to remember where it's coming from, and the point of view from which it is expressed, which naturally colors whatever is being said.

me personally, I like it ALL. And I think there is room for all of it, too.

THE ARENA IDEA IS FINE FOR MONEY MAKERS WHAT ABOUT THE MOUNTAIN CLIMBERS THEY DON'T BUILD THEIR TRAILS WHATS HAPPENING TO THE WEEK-END COMPITIONS AND FUN STACKING A BUNCH OF ROCKS INSIDE CAN BE DONE BY ANY-ONE BUT I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYBODY THAT FOURWHEELS SAYS WHEN THEY FIND THAT GREAT HIDDEN PLACE TO CRAWL OR ROCK RACE THERE IS NO ORGANIZED SPORT TO BEAT THAT THE MONEY MAKES THIGS BIG IT ALSO CLOSES DOORS OR TRAILS SHUT WHATS NEXT WHEN YOU HAVE TO STOP AT THE LOCAL POLICE STATION ON YOUR WAY HOME FROM WORK TO GET A PERMIT TO FAWK!!!!!!

Originally posted by partsjunkie
THE ARENA IDEA IS FINE FOR MONEY MAKERS WHAT ABOUT THE MOUNTAIN CLIMBERS THEY DON'T BUILD THEIR TRAILS WHATS HAPPENING TO THE WEEK-END COMPITIONS AND FUN STACKING A BUNCH OF ROCKS INSIDE CAN BE DONE BY ANY-ONE BUT I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYBODY THAT FOURWHEELS SAYS WHEN THEY FIND THAT GREAT HIDDEN PLACE TO CRAWL OR ROCK RACE THERE IS NO ORGANIZED SPORT TO BEAT THAT THE MONEY MAKES THIGS BIG IT ALSO CLOSES DOORS OR TRAILS SHUT WHATS NEXT WHEN YOU HAVE TO STOP AT THE LOCAL POLICE STATION ON YOUR WAY HOME FROM WORK TO GET A PERMIT TO FAWK!!!!!!


For the love of god man, find the caps lock key as well as the comma and period :eek: :eek:

Originally posted by Lance


And why couldn't they use that same video clip if it was in a stadium? :shaking: :rolleyes:

Uhhh, think about that. Joe "Dumbass" Public see it in a controled enviorment not in Nature's back yard.

Private Land is a good idea too for the comps.

There's no doubt that an outdoor event where you can be part of or close to the action is great but, I'm suprised that the liability issue hasn't been a real issue. People sue for all sorts of goofy things, I know, I own my business and have been threatened before. Not that I did anything wrong but they assume that you have deep pockets and try to take advantage of it.

Do I like the thought of indoor comps.? No, but based on the possibility of huge lawsuits if little billy gets bitch slapped with flying carnage, I don't see any reason not to move people to a safe distance from the action. If you want to be hands on with the action, enter your own damn rig.

Let the flaming begin, but remember, this is only from the standpoint of liability.

I dont know how many of you actually compete here on this thread or board. I know Lance does obviosly, as do I and my friend. I am just a spotter, and love being just that for the rockcrawling events. If you have competed then you will know where im coming from. There is nothing like competing on what mother nature gave you. Every event, whether it be in Johnson Valley, Farmington, Utah, Nevada, wherever, One of the funnest parts besides competing is getting to travel to these, for the most part "remote" areas. Now, dont get me wrong, if you want to get paid to Get IT, you need sponsors,spectators,ect...I just dont see it being as fun or as challenging if it were to be done in an arena. By challenging, I mean look how much work it would take to make some of the long steep climbs, moving all the rocks around and everything. For example, just because the event is in Cali, or NM, you probably wont get Cali, or NM type rockcrawling indoors. I say if arena crawling is the next wave, do it. But there always needs to be outdoor, mother natures version of "real"rockcrawling ya heard me!!:beer:

Originally posted by Weasel


Uhhh, think about that. Joe "Dumbass" Public see it in a controled enviorment not in Nature's back yard.

Private Land is a good idea too for the comps.

Again, I ask what would be the difference in the greenie's video clip? Do you SEE what Im saying? The video clip is going to show joe wheeler rolling off a cliff. What does it matter where it is? They can portray us how they want, whereever we are, be it in a stadium, or on a rock in Farmington. They can spin the story how ever they want.....

Bottom line is responsible promoters like BigRich and CalROCS leave an area in BETTER shape than it was BEFORE the event. That's a FACT. The BLM is happy, and THAT is all that matters. You can't constantly worry about what the greenies are doing, because they will ALWAYS find their propoganda, be it stadium competitions, or not......

I'm kinda scared that so many of you are in favor of turning these competitions into a promotional sport.... Having been to these Comps and knowing a lot of the competitiors, I think I can safely say that 99.9% of the people involved do it because the love to do it, not for the publicity or the money (Walker was the other.1% that does it for the money and publicity)....

I'm not sure I know what to make of this alarming trend. Where will this lead in the future....to fourwheeling in a stadium only environment. Everything we do can be used against us or for us...Like Lance was saying the Greens will manipulate everything to their advantage, regardless of hte truth....

I could see it now (write this down, I'm making a prediction) the sierra club to the government "They know they ruin the environment, thats why they moved to stadiums. So, by their own admittance, they should no longer be allowed to use their earth destroying machines on Public Lands...."

I hope I'm wrong on this....:(


:usa:

I think the "rock racing" is awesome. Sure, it's kinda fast to be considered rockcrawling, but it definitly adds an interesting tone to the events. I've seen other competitions that weren't racing competitions, and were more technical, but each has it's own strong points. I can't stand it when people criticize competitions and the like. If you don't like it, keep the opinion to yourself, and deal with it. It's gonna happen anyway and there isn't a thing you can do about it. Get over it. Other people enjoy it and you should be happy for them.

Wow that took along time to read......Ned is a good guy and fun to wheel w/ but he's also done his damage too. Look at his rig. You tell me if he's spilt a little oil and gas on the ground. I remember when he was always at the top of the hill looking down at everyone. I think times have changed and he's looking up now and dosn't like it. About the indoor stuff.... I'm all for it. My brother/spotter and I tear our rig up at every event. The last RRCA event we totaled it and will have a new one ready for July's event. Our rig gets a total face lift after every two events. It's not free. So you have to give everyone a break for trying to get some help to pay for this carnage sport. I'm from Farmington and I will always love the outdoor climbing but we need help w/ some of the costs. Big Rich is on the right track looking at indoor stuff. I will follow his lead if he can put the events together. You have to remember there's 15 guys at every event worried about winning and 55 that are there for fun and to hear the croud roar. So you can have 4000 yelling outside or 30000 yelling inside. You tell me what would be better. Its all about money don't trash the guys looking to get their share. They'll be lucky to break even anyway.

Originally posted by Yellowsub1962

I could see it now (write this down, I'm making a prediction) the sierra club to the government "They know they ruin the environment, thats why they moved to stadiums. So, by their own admittance, they should no longer be allowed to use their earth destroying machines on Public Lands...."

I hope I'm wrong on this....:(


:usa:

You make a good point here; my desire for seeing competitive rock crawling is to attract big money sponsors to the events. Larger companies investing in the marketing side (the real reason to sponsor an event or team) are going to want to protect their market I.E. the trails where the consumers use the product. We may see some vocal support from larger manufactures against the greens if they stand to use their market place.

I'm in a 4wd club here in Middle Tn . The club sponsored a mud bog this past weekend , they had a huge turnout . This was a smallish event in a small town , but it could of been bigger . The club also had a rockcrawl type of event but it didn't draw much . Five competitors in an isolated creekbed , still the weekend turned out well . I just wanted too add my .02 worth ! :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Yellowsub1962
[color=yellow]I'm kinda scared that so many of you are in favor of turning these competitions into a promotional sport.... Having been to these Comps and knowing a lot of the competitiors, I think I can safely say that 99.9% of the people involved do it because the love to do it, not for the publicity or the money (Walker was the other.1% that does it for the money and publicity)....


Wake up Peter - These ARE "promoted" events already...

Do you think Big Rich is gonna keep doing this if he can't turn over a dollar or two? I know Bob Hazel would not be involved if he could not make some $$$...

Lance mentioned something like 4000 spectators at $5-$10 a head at just one event.... Do the math and see if THAT is not about MONEY.

Do you think Warn, Superlift, Goodyear, etc. are donating their name, product, and $$$ if there was no monetary benefit down the line?


Now maybe the competitors are not in it for the money - but IMHO they are the only ones :p:p:p

Originally posted by Yellowsub1962
I could see it now (write this down, I'm making a prediction) the sierra club to the government "They know they ruin the environment, thats why they moved to stadiums. So, by their own admittance, they should no longer be allowed to use their earth destroying machines on Public Lands...."

I hope I'm wrong on this....:(


:usa:


This is the old "damned if you do - damned if you don't" scenerio - no way to win this one, and an underhanded adversary will play this card every time to their benefit.

David it is true that the number of spectators reached somewhere around 2500 plus. But without a controlled enviroment. fences, gates, etc. the actual number of paid spectators can be nowhere near the same total. we saw less than 1600 paid at the gates, If and when we can get a handle on gate control, either on public or private lands, and have large paid turnouts, a larger purse will be available to the drivers. oh and by the way not all sponsors pay for their spots, some make services or product available to competitors, some pay only contingency monies to the competitors, and some us are so new at this, if we can get anything from a sponsor, it is likely very little compared to the biggies. For instance, at Moon Rocks we had sponsorship that only covered about 23% of or operating costs, to cover the rest, we had to rely on spectator gate fees. That's a big gamble for a small promoter, but I guess also some of the fun.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

the price of trying to do something new, along with the learning cruve, can be high. But what the hell, I for one have never been known NOT to take chances:D :D

Rich

I follow you Rich - believe me ;)


My point was just that momey is a BIG part of this as soon as it became a "sport" and nto just a "hobby".

Companies like Warn may only be giving contingency money = but that is money, and they are only doing that because of the advertising $$$$ that win represents.

And I know what you are saying about spectators getting by the gates - early figures show that we had between 600-1000 people make it into our mud bog competition and not pay... beside the 2000 or so that did pay. But there again - a stadium setting would lend itself to MUCH better control of these types of things, so I would definately chalk that up to a huge benefit for stadium rock events.

Originally posted by Yellowsub1962
I'm kinda scared that so many of you are in favor of turning these competitions into a promotional sport.... Having been to these Comps and knowing a lot of the competitiors, I think I can safely say that 99.9% of the people involved do it because the love to do it, not for the publicity or the money (Walker was the other.1% that does it for the money and publicity)....

I had the same thought Sub. How big do we want it to become? Yeah, I know it's kinda the "slippery-slope" argument, but...

I figured competitors were happy with the way it is now... but apparently many want to see it grow more. Is there a point when it's too big? Too many events? Too many competitors? Impossible to compete w/out big name sponsors (like NASCAR?)?

And you're probably right about the Sierra Club....

They can spin the story however they want...

Yes and no. If ALL rock racing events are held in stadiums and never to be held in the wild again, they would be caught lying because we would all know. I definately feel that it should be a stadium held event, or at least on private ground. I personally feel that it has gone too far. I wheel to get AWAY from traffic and stress. That doesn't mean I don't get it with all I got, it just means that I don't need a big croud cheering me on. My cousin, best friend, and my wife(not all the same person!), will do just fine. Besides, these aren't even trails anymore, they're just obstacles, easily duplicated in stadium. Besides, you would opening it up to 4-5 times the amount and different types of people. It would be the same amount or more in revenue, not including concessions.

I just think rockcrawling and competing should be kept completely separate. My club even just took out a small group who said that they were "in training" for rock racing. It was a phuking joke. Within 30 minutes, two were on their sides, and one had managed to knock down a large pine tree, which really pissed me off. We almost lost our trail because of their "training" program which consisted of immediately wrapping tow straps around roll bars and engaging the "throttle ON" toggle switch. It is just what they've seen and heard. But this is all beside the point.
Keep crawlin' crawlin' and keep it away from competition.

hey Big Rich-

I'm assuming that you are a competition promoter?

The item in the article that caught my interest was the (sensored) liability insurance angle-

I used to teach AZ Concealed Weapons classes- the liability/saftey questions forced me to stop- I had a million in liability insurance, but one un-intentional discharge by a student would wipe that out-----

How are you guy's handling this? That may be the biggest factor in moving the sport to a stadium type setting- I read a suggestion above on waivers- they won't hold up in court.

later

The greenies will spin anything to reflect their point of view. For instance, closely cropped photos of Mt St. Helens a couple years after the eruption were shown on National TV, and in classrooms to show the devistation of logging practices in the area. My family has a logging co. so I'm observant of the greenie propaganda and it's lack of factual base. They have more time and far more money than we do to spread their message.

After reading all of this it sounds like the answer is to hold the events on private land. If you held an event there each year you could make it permanent by adding fences to control the crowds and adding grand stands for some of the obsticales. Of course finding a willing land owner may a different hurdle all together. And having different obstacles each time would be tougher but that can be overcome by laying out the gates different, mother nature, and possibly some man made assistance. It may be a dumb idea or it may just be the happy medium between the staduim and a better controlled outdoor event. Just my nickel, Jake

I have not competed yet, but i want to badly. And when i do, i will not be one of the ones there to have fun. I will be there to win, make $$ and get a sponsor. If you waant to wheel for fun, go to the Easter Jeep Safari or Chile Challenge, don't enter an RCAA event. It is true that as the competition side of things grow, the sport will get more complex and political. I would rather have it this way than not. At least potentially i will be able to earn a living doing what i love. That is what i want, and I love BigRich's attitude because he is being realistic about the future possibilties. If taking the sport indoor means more $$ and publicity, then i am all for it. I don't care if it takes away from the "spirit" of rockcrawling. If i want a relaxing trail-ride, i will go on a relaxing trail-ride, not enter a competition.

Look at NASCAR, it is all about $$ and publicity. Do you think any of the current team owners/drivers/mechanics etc. are complaining about what has happened over the past 25 years to NASCAR?? NNNOOO!!!! Of course they aren't... Would they rather be back racing down the beach at Daytona on sand?? Of course not... Somewhere along the line, the $$ came in to play, and they decided to build racetracks for the events, instead of running around in the dirt...

Rockcrawling will inevitably take the same course, and i want to be there every step of the way. Some day enough $$ will be invested to buy land, and devlop a specific course that will be run every time. Now, whether this is man-made or natural is not important. If we simply took some of the courses we have now, and privatized them, we could build bleachers, and other utilities near all the specific obstacles. That would increase capacity, and make it more comfortable for the fans.

Also, why not have an indoor course made out of the same stuff they use for Rock-Climbing walls? It would have to be designed to hold a little more weight, but you could replicate the steep hill climbs of Farmington, or the tall ledges of Las Cruces. Also, what about concrete?? That seems like the easiest way to form some sweet obstacles...

Just my opinion...

I agree with Blatant, I think it could be very cool if done well in and arena. I also think that the comptitions are not an accurate view of what most of us do when out rockcrawling. It seemes to me to be like all other sorts "Racing' Spend lots of money, go realy fast. That is just my .02, you can take it for what it is.

I suppose I should clarify my view on things. I'm sure that in the future RCAA (or whoever is the big rock crawling organization at the time) will eventually go to stadium type venue. I don't have a problem with that. I DO think it will be tough to build man made courses that replicate what we do on natural courses. Not impossible, just tough.....

Where I think Ned is full of shit is in saying that CURRENT rock crawling competitions (that are on natural courses) are HURTING the sport of rock crawling. That's just dumb.....

Originally posted by Lance
Where I think Ned is full of shit is in saying that CURRENT rock crawling competitions (that are on natural courses) are HURTING the sport of rock crawling. That's just dumb.....

Oh sheet why did you not say so in the first place. :rolleyes: Well I guess it's settled then.

The Eastern Rock Crawling Championship (ERoCC) is approaching rock crawling competitions in some unique ways:

We are holding events for the following reasons:

1. To make money for The Trail Keepers Foundation, which spends the money on creating and maintaining new recreational riding opportunities.

2. To increase awareness about The Trail Keepers Foundation.

3. To increase tourism to the area where the events are held.

4. To show the local land owners and government leaders that we are a responsible group that can be beneficial to work with.

5. To further the sport of rock crawling.

In terms of the course itself, some of the obstacles are natural, some are man-made. However, the course lay-out is designed to allow spectators to easily walk between different obstacles and to actually see multiple obstacles at once.

We have created a large parking area close to the course. We are currently using port-o-lets, but have plans in the future to bring in water and electric and have fixed facilities.

So maybe this is the future of rock crawling? Unique, purpose-built courses that feature the local terrain. Spectators come out and spend a weekend at them, rather than a couple of hours.

People keep saying that NASCAR went the way of the arena shows, but I don't think they have. They have unique facilities all over the US that people travel long distances to attend events at. They don't use multi-purpose standiums where you go for a couple of hours. By building our course, we have designed a destination people enjoy visiting. It is outside, but it is somewhat controlled, and it is spectator friendly.

In terms of the original question about whether "rock racing" is hurting rock crawling - I think that is just the sport evolving, and if it doesn't evolve, it will die. It is still not about horsepower, but engineering, suspension, tires, driving, spotting and strategy. It is amazing to see the rigs change from year to year. Speaking of strategy, since NASCAR keeps being brought up, NASCAR still has a lot of strategy involved in it, also. It also takes excellent driving and an excellent car to win those races.

Another question was raised about whether the sport would hurt trail riding, or create bad images that could be used against us. Well, the sport already has a lot of momentum, so I don't see anyway to stop it now. If you try to ban it, make it illegal, or sabotage it, you are not much better than the exclusionists or eco-terrorists. So instead of sitting on the sidelines, either get involved and make sure the sport goes where you want it to go if you plan on competing, or if you don't plan on competing, figure out a way to make it benefit trail riding, if that is your "thing".

As for me, I don't compete in rock crawling events, but I love to watch them, and I enjoy organizing them. I have a trail jeep and I am involved with an event that uses rock crawling to benefit both rock crawling and trail riding.

If you want to compete in our events, the next one is June 21-23 in Jellico, TN. It is limited to 40 competitors and spots are filling fast. You can find out more or register online at http://www.erocc.com.

Thanks!
Tim

Ok, I see what your saying Lance. I don't think man made obsticlues would be all that hard. You could make some killer stuff just on current items produce now. Like thos concrete barriers used in construction. Place a few of thos in the way to drive over.

Lots of good input on this one- I was amused by ned's stuff too.

I've done a lot of midwest events that are combining many elements of wheelin. To the average Joe-six pack spectator, the rock crawling is a yawn fest. They just don't get into it. Somebody thrashing thru and or breaking a poorly prepped vehicle gets more applause than a smoking tube chassis crawlin thru without a perfect score.

They do love the mud, hillclimbs, speed courses, log jams. Personally, I'd rather krawl but i respect that the promoters nee spectators.

I can't see mass appeal for rockcrawling when you're on row 56 in the upper level, or row one for that matter. It's more for the techies who appreciate the beauty of the cars and the finess and teamwork of the successful teams which can only be appreciated from a closer position.

Ned does hit on some good points- not slamming those who elect to do it but some of these events are really putting spotters at risk- I prefer an event that's more about rig prep and driving, not about how hard my spotter can pull on a strap or stack rocks under my vehicle. Ned needs to open his eyes more- many events are very technical yet don't compromise the spotter as much or rely on rock stacking so heavily. The Rock Garden club's event is one of those and ProRock also leans that way.

I want to see the sport prosper as well, it would be great to have more events closer to home. getting a qualified spotter to volunteer his time is enough of a challenge- I'd hate to ask him to needlessly risk harm or life too. Ned's last article did refer to a Competitiors dad Losing part of his leg- this is the stuff we can do without.

Happy Wheelin!

Ken

I think (which dosnt happen often) that there sould be bolth in door and out door comp. Because then the sport can travel to a place like florida were they dont know what a rock looks like. I also think that man made obsticals cant beat what mother nature made. I dont think it would be any safer in a studium but there would be more people. I do think that there sould be some more rules on the spoters. I think they sould only be able to use straps instead of pushing the trucks because im waiting for a sporter death and then it would give the 4X4 hateing people and argument. I dont know this just what i think and im a dumb arss.

Originally posted by skank da sock puppet
Any thought's on Ned Bacon's rant against organized rock crawling as it's now practiced? (He's done a couple of pieces in the 4WPW rag, where I get -all- my wheeling info, on how it's a bad thing for wheeling in general.) His basic premise is that it should be held on man-made obstacles in stadiums and/or arenas in order to make it safer and keep greens from using it as amunition for trail closure efforts.

Thats so he (and 4wheel parts) can charge entrance fees and make lots of money. I think he believes that this is Mickey Thompson Offroad Racing and not a bunch of guys how really enjoy this $hit.

Ned's "Rant about Rockracing" was created and published to do two things: 1, get people thinking about where our beloved sport is headed with regards to safety and the enviornment. (Which by looks of this thread did a good job) and 2, pay bills, he's a writer, he submits articles that stimulate people's intrests. He gets paid to do so. I think he's a damn good writer too. So all you people who think that he is giving us rock crawling folk a bad image, use your freedom of speech and submit an article to get peoples attention. Write to the magazines and tell them how you feel. If the magazines here enough, things will change. Thats my humble opinion.:usa:

Originally posted by GloNDark


I've met him a few times, hell I even have a set of his tires on my cruiser. And honestly, I find what he says extremely one sided. A few months back I had seen him that morning driving to work in his power stroke diesel and that night I got the 4WP's rag in the mail and there we was ranting on and on about how he hates people who drive big ass trucks and how he drives his little 914 everyday just to save gas and be the "Green wheeler"

And basically after that, I don't even read those pages of ramblings.

Hmm.. one sided? no.. I'de call him a

LIAR!

My biggest complaint is the cost to compete!!!!!!!!!!!
Who can afford 2 or 300 each event? This had very quikly become out of reach for the average Joe, and become a race for the Rich or Sponsored.

Originally posted by Welby
If you group the rockcrawling competition in with say, mud bogs and monster truck type jamborees, people will watch it as a curiosity, but most likely will lose interest fairly quickly.
Anyone not directly involved themselves in wheeling/building a rig, will see it as an amusing little sideshow that is interesting for approximately 10 minutes. JMO, for what that's worth

Actually, pretty good points here. The one rock crawl I witnessed was a man-made pile at "Mudstock". Granted, overall that was one sorry excuse for an event. But, what I noticed was that at any given time, there'd be 5-10 people watching the rock crawl & 3-400 watching the mud bog (ignorant pit though it may have been). The lack of variety in the obstacles combined with the perceived lack of action by those attempting to drive "elegantly" made the rock crawl about as interesting as watchin' paint dry. The only time I watched was when a friend of mine was up there spotting.

Granted, RCAA level competitors would have made it a lot better. But, the course just wan't that interesting. So, I don't know how well RCAA would do indoors or in smallish arenas. Plus, hauling the rock in & out would be prohibitively expensive. Same problem we have mud racing indoors. Costs more to haul in the dirt than to rent the building.

Now, what I could see is permanent rock-crawling courses set up on private property, even on the backside of other motorsports complexes. Think about something like a motocross track that already has all the amenities needed for a spectator event (parking, good roads in & out, concession stands, permanent toilets, etc). If they had some acreage on which to expand, they could install a permanent rock course (or even excavate one out of the available rocks) that would be large enough & challenging enough to be interesting. At the same time, it could be more spectator friendly than a traditional outdoor course, and being on private property, nobody could bitch about environmental impact.

As to "rockracing" vs. "rockcrawling", I think there has to be some non-elegant action for the casual spectator to be held captive. Y'all might remember the 4Wheel & Off-Road Jamborees having an "obstacle" course years ago. Essentially, it was an elegant driving contest. Nobody watched. Then, they emphasized time more & it got kinda interesting. In 1992, they moved it into the arena, took out most obstacles & added jumps, and changed it to what we now know as "tough truck" racing.

People want to see tirespin & hear motors screaming. You just have to make sure that in the interest of "speed" and "action" that they don't pussify your obstacles ;)

TEX

Originally posted by Yellowsub1962
I'm kinda scared that so many of you are in favor of turning these competitions into a promotional sport....


:usa:

I'm not sure why that would threaten you. Truth is, it's already a big "promotional" sport. Hell ARCA (RCAA) would not have even come into existence were it not for the fact that Goodyear wanted a place to show off their new MT/R's. And while the vast majority of the competitors aren't in it for the money, they're certainly in it for the COMPETITION. This is not a bad thing & in no way does it detract from the recreational wheeling everyone enjoys out on the trails.

TEX

Originally posted by TEX


As to "rockracing" vs. "rockcrawling", I think there has to be some non-elegant action for the casual spectator to be held captive. Y'all might remember the 4Wheel & Off-Road Jamborees having an "obstacle" course years ago. Essentially, it was an elegant driving contest. Nobody watched. Then, they emphasized time more & it got kinda interesting. In 1992, they moved it into the arena, took out most obstacles & added jumps, and changed it to what we now know as "tough truck" racing.

People want to see tirespin & hear motors screaming. You just have to make sure that in the interest of "speed" and "action" that they don't pussify your obstacles ;)

TEX

I agree 100% - people (in the numbers necessary to support the activity) are not going to pay money for rock 'crawling', but as ARCA has proved, they will pay to see rock 'racing'. As a non competitor, when I watch ARCA I am fully aware that THAT is not really what "I" do - it's altered somewhat by the necessity to maintain casual spectator interest.

Now me personally, I WOULD pay to see rock 'crawling', but I think in reality I am in the minority, and even if everyone on this board was with that 100%, that still would not be nearly enough people to support it as a business.

The only real 'problem' occurs when one watches or participates in one thing expecting another. To me there is no conflict between the two, because they are two distinctly different ways of wheeling, but some people don't see the distinction, and I think that is where some of the 'controversy' lies.

Just my 2c.

Coming from the other side of the fence.......

If we set up a course that we believe is truly a crawling course (which we try and do) there are drivers out there that will still it with a full throttle

There really is a fine line that we try to maintain, between exciting and hair raising, to life threatening and absurb.

With the coming of our first arena event (NorCal Rally), we are bring in some of the biggest boulders that can be moved, we'll speed up the event (interest for the casual spectator) and then hope that we can convert some of the new interest into what we are doing with the series (more events on private property).

We invited Ned Bacon to come to the NorCal Rally, but unfortuntly he has other plans for the weekend. But maybe he'll read the articles from thee other National Media that will be in attendance.

Rich
CalROCS

Ned's opinion is just that...'His' opinion, and OBVIOUSLY everyone here has there own. No matter what your own personal opinion is on the subject, you have to admit that if Ned didn't bring it up in his article, more than likely none of us would be here talking about it.

Thank you Ned.

I just wish we could get Granville King's 2 cents worth on the subject.

Finally got around to reading his rant. While I read I kept thinking what a dumbass this guy is. Then it finally hit me. He's the Killer Bee Ned guy that was at TTC. He's so worried about the image of rock crawling events yet he shows up to help judge an even that includes rock racing? Hmmm? And, the WORST part is if he is so worried about the image we send out as a group, why was he drinking his beer and driving his turd while everyone was playing on the mini-Rubicon after TTC was done? He even spilled his beer when he rolled over backward, and some of the kids there thought it was cool how he was taking a drink just as he went over backward.

If he is so concerned about the image we send out as a group, perhaps he needs to clean up his own act first before saying one word to the way anyone else does anything.

He's a dumbass

Originally posted by Big Rich


Ned has some fine points and some not so fine points, look what CalROCS has been trying to do, use private lands, not public (except for Moon Rocks) and we will continue to try and use non public lands (Carnage for the Con).

Thank you Rich! From what I have seen you are the most thoughtful promoter out there.

I was at Moon Rocks and the rigs were SWEET and all of the competitors I talked to were really cool. But take that away and greenies (or even the general public for that matter) see people drinking beer at 9 AM and hooting and hollering when someone rolls or breaks their junk. The general public doesn't see Rich and his crew going back out there and cleaning up the site either. You might not care what the greenies and general public think but they have deeper pockets than we do and are the ones who influence land policy.

Just step back and think about it for a minute. I have a friend who has an environmental policy degree :rolleyes: and works for a non-profit "open space" organization. I took her wheeling once and even though my club and I were on our best behavior the actions of some of our fellow wheelers were embarassing. Now I try and approach every trip as though there was a greenie watching and it really makes me do some things differently.

I for one do NOT want Johnson Valley or Farmington or any of the other competition locations to be closed to recreational wheeling. And in "recreational wheeling" you aren't dragging tires with cutting brakes and throttling up the hardest lines until you break (at least I'm not).

Just thought you all might want to know that Ned was at the uroc sanctioned Kremling Crawlers this weekend. He won in the Legends (stock) class. Yeah, with his 38's. The promoter feels 38's are close enough to stock, so he changed the rules. At least Ned seems like a nice guy.

Actually they were 37" goodyears.Mike just used the UROC name and did his own thing.Didn't like the 38" tire limit.We competed running 33"ers.Still came out with 11th.I thought he was kind of arrogant.Blazin:D

Originally posted by skank da sock puppet
where I get -all- my wheeling info,

And what about the Pirate4x4.com? Hmmmm :flipoff2:

Hey blazin,

Yeah, those may have been 37's. I never really had time to look at them. How's the Jeep? I'll try to get some pics off the video of you guys Gettin It on seven, airborne!

I can't even imagine a world where I can't drive on a rock with some friends without a bunch of heckling spectators that I don't want to deal with. I mean seriously they're rocks man there not alive they don't cry or bleed when you crawl over them. There's millions of them and big broken ones become small rocks which none of us want to see happen anyhow. Maybe some tire marks get on the rock sometimes big deal they erode off. Now if you told these Starbuck guzzling greenies that asphalt made the land look bad and they we're going to have to use dirt roads they would freak out. Practice a little if it doesn't hurt you then don't bother someone else's fun just because its different then what you think is fun. You want an indoor event check this one out put 100 convicted greenies in an arena and let us try and run over as many as possible in 20 minutes and to make it interesting put some rocks in the arena so they have something to hide behind and a sporting chance.:D

ned was running 38.5 Sx's
and he came across to me as beeing a real dick :flipoff2:
i made some coment about his coils with tennis balls in them being stock and he wouldent even reply or look at me

he took the normal puss way of wheeling too, drive up the the obstical pull the cable and take the 15 points i saw 2 he dident even try to drive just took the cable i dont know how he did so well like that but all i have to say is :flipoff2:

we worked our ass off with 35's and came in 12th and were
happy and had a blast beatin the crap outa the little jeep!!

TIM

Originally posted by Curtis
He even spilled his beer when he rolled over backward, and some of the kids there thought it was cool how he was taking a drink just as he went over backward.


Does that guy run helium in his front tires (*), cause all I've seen or heard about him is rolling over backwards :D. I have the Goodyear vol. 1 tape, and any time they showed him, he was on his back 2 wheels :D


(*) Disclaimer: Yes, I know that won't do anything, so spare me the "You moron" routine :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Rockmonky
........

he took the normal puss way of wheeling too, ............
TIM :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Originally posted by Rockmonky
he took the normal puss way of wheeling too, drive up the the obstical pull the cable and take the 15 points i saw 2 he dident even try to drive just took the cable i dont know how he did so well like that but all i have to say is :flipoff2:



That's something that aggitates me. Some team busts there ass and completes and obstacle, hits a couple gates, takes a couple backs, say 25 points. Some jerkoff winches the thing and comes away with 15 points :rolleyes: I've seen it before in ERoCC and I wanted to slap the guy for not trying anything.

With ERoCCs advent of legends gates for extremely difficult sections of trail i think Legends winching should be bumped up to 40 points, just like unlimited. If it's unpassable, then everyone will get 40 points and it's fair.

Originally posted by bigdude


That's something that aggitates me. Some team busts there ass and completes and obstacle, hits a couple gates, takes a couple backs, say 25 points. Some jerkoff winches the thing and comes away with 15 points :rolleyes: I've seen it before in ERoCC and I wanted to slap the guy for not trying anything.

With ERoCCs advent of legends gates for extremely difficult sections of trail i think Legends winching should be bumped up to 40 points, just like unlimited. If it's unpassable, then everyone will get 40 points and it's fair.

fuck it, it's GAY, he he...If someone were to pull up to the rubicon's "lil sluice" and get right to the begaining and bust out the winch, pull all the way through....he would be heckled so bad...might even get his ass kicked, lol...might even start crying before he was all done! he he he BaWaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa............Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa

Originally posted by bigdude
That's something that aggitates me. Some team busts there ass and completes and obstacle, hits a couple gates, takes a couple backs, say 25 points. Some jerkoff winches the thing and comes away with 15 points :rolleyes: I've seen it before in ERoCC and I wanted to slap the guy for not trying anything.

With ERoCCs advent of legends gates for extremely difficult sections of trail i think Legends winching should be bumped up to 40 points, just like unlimited. If it's unpassable, then everyone will get 40 points and it's fair.

We took a couple gates, (okay, more than just a couple) a few backs, some stops... but never pulled the winch all weekend at UROC Kremmling. Unlimited winch penalty was 30 points--at 40, you're "pointed out" of an obstacle, so we tried (and did) every obstacle there, on driving and spotting and running over cones (oops). Never pointed out once either, but we did take 38 points on one obstacle.

While I think the 15 point penalty for winching is too minimal for the legends, I do understand why it's less than unlimited. I'm kinda of the opinion that unlimiteds winching, should be "pointed out" as soon as they pull the winch--the whole point of unlimited class vehicles is that they shouldn't have to pull the winch.

The legends pulling line, should be within one cone hit of pointing out, IMHO... if it's 40 points to point out, and 10 per cone, winching should be 30 points. If you're gonna pull cable, you better have a near-perfect run other than that, 'cause if you're on the string, you have far more control than normal.

As for the 38's and 38.5's in the legends class, that's bull. The rules said 36's and under, measured height... not tire carcass height, not "wedge the measuring thing between the tread lugs till it squishes to 36 inches". I don't even run legends class, and I think it's bull. I know more than a few guys who had a set of 35's or 36's on a truck that normally runs 38's, guys who read the rules and left their 38's at home, and then they show up and have to compete against guys running 38's.

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper


While I think the 15 point penalty for winching is too minimal for the legends, I do understand why it's less than unlimited. I'm kinda of the opinion that unlimiteds winching, should be "pointed out" as soon as they pull the winch--the whole point of unlimited class vehicles is that they shouldn't have to pull the winch.

The legends pulling line, should be within one cone hit of pointing out, IMHO... if it's 40 points to point out, and 10 per cone, winching should be 30 points. If you're gonna pull cable, you better have a near-perfect run other than that, 'cause if you're on the string, you have far more control than normal.


I think it is 30 points actually and I was just mistaken. I normally participate in Unlimited and just remembered "We'll never winch because we may as well point out" so I said 40.

I agree with you 100%, 30 points for the cable, 40 for the point out. Originally the ERoCC legends class ran the same courses as the unlimited. This made Legends winching on 3+ obstacles a must for 90% of the people. But there was that one crazy fawker (and PBB member) who drove the shit when everyone else was pulling cable. He would've done much better (won instead of 2nd) if winching cost higher points.

Now ERoCC has added legends gates around some of the rough unlimited areas. You can run the unlimited gates for *bonus* negative points, or you can run the legends gates w/ no penalty for taking them. Same course, just different gates. This should eliminate quite a bit of winching, which is why I think the penalty should be increased.

It's one guy, with no balls, who ruined watching the legends class. Pull the cable was his strategy while others were gettin' it, he won by not trying :( That's a black mark on competition in my mind

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper

As for the 38's and 38.5's in the legends class, that's bull. The rules said 36's and under, measured height... not tire carcass height, not "wedge the measuring thing between the tread lugs till it squishes to 36 inches".

38X12.50/15 TSL's mounted on 10" rims will easily slide through a rigid 36" caliper held horizontally with just the slightest push, even in brand new condition (keep in mind, this tire was originally stamped "37X13" up until the mid 1980's). The 16.5" version however will NOT fit w/o substantial pushing, nor will any 38.5 made.

We actually gave up on "measured height" for mud racing because of all the bitching about different ways folks measured (and because of the manufacturing variances in Interco's tires). We now use stamped height - for tires with no stamp, we still bring out the caliper, but all 4 must slide through with ZERO pushing. Because the 38X12.50's are more like an oversized "36" than a true "38", I have a class that cuts off at 38.0, with 38.5's NOT allowed.

TEX

Originally posted by bigdude
That's something that aggitates me. Some team busts there ass and completes and obstacle, hits a couple gates, takes a couple backs, say 25 points. Some jerkoff winches the thing and comes away with 15 points :rolleyes: I've seen it before in ERoCC and I wanted to slap the guy for not trying anything.


What should agitate you is that this problem is due to SCORING, not PARTICIPANTS.


IMHO - when you are in a competition, it is about strategy, and using the scoring method to YOUR ADVANTAGE.

Example:

The small rock crawl comp. we put on had 19 gates, numbered one through 19. You got 10 points for every gate X the number of the gate you passed through.

That means that the first gate was worth 10 points, while the last gate was worth 190 points.

So, thinking SMART, the wise thing to do would be to completely ignore the first half of the gates, and then take your time on carefully completing the last 10 gates. Shoot - backups were only a one point deduction, but does that really matter on a 190 point gate?

Would it suck to see someone ignore the first 9 gates? Sure it would!
Was it the fault of the comeptitors that it was in their favor to do so - NO!
It was our fault for setting up the scoring system to where that was the best way to win the competition...


Bottom line - if someone is pulling cable and winning the competitions - then the scoring needs to be adjusted to fix it...

Originally posted by DRM

Bottom line - if someone is pulling cable and winning the competitions - then the scoring needs to be adjusted to fix it...

It does need to be adjusted. However I have every right in the world to be agitated by a sissy driving a NOS equipped tube buggy that is afraid to attempt climbs, obstacles, and roll. That is what the competition is for. This fellow does not use this strategy to win, he just uses this strategy because he is a baby. He won through luck, and he has used his strategy to losses many times before. The point systems will be arranged in the future to prevent fellows with his attitude from entering.

Until then I can only hope that my severe heckling will deter him at this next event from re-entering :flipoff2: for Bettio's bitch ass

Originally posted by DRM

Bottom line - if someone is pulling cable and winning the competitions - then the scoring needs to be adjusted to fix it...

God I hate when I agree with you. :flipoff2: It hurts EVERY time!

Originally posted by DRM
What should agitate you is that this problem is due to SCORING, not PARTICIPANTS.
IMHO - when you are in a competition, it is about strategy, and using the scoring method to YOUR ADVANTAGE.


Ow! Ow! It does hurt to agree with you. :)

That's the point I was trying to make--the legend class at Kremmling had two attitudes--there were those who were there to "give it hell" and those who'd carefully strategized how far they were going to go, where they were going to pull out the winch, etc. And there were a few obstacles where even unlimited buggies were timing and/or pointing out.

Because of the winching penalty for the unlimited class (which I don't think is severe enough) we were forced to decide what to do, strategize down which cones we were going to hit, etc., because taking a cone or two, but not winching or timing out, was a better thing. And there were a couple obstacles that my truck physically didn't fit through the gates on... one in particular that we hit two cones with the front tires, simultaneously.

I personally believe that the winching penalty wasn't severe enough for the legends class. IMHO, if you're on a rockcrawling/rockracing/whatever course, where it's a competition of technique, equipment, spotter bulk, or whatever, winching is (to me) throwing in the towel. It shouldn't be a means of motion through an obstacle (except maybe some of the stuff at Top Truck); it should be a recovery tool once your run is over. When there's nine obstacles to run, if you point out on one or two, that's competition.

That's the point I was trying to make--the legend class at Kremmling had two attitudes--there were those who were there to "give it hell"


that was US!!! we did #5 on saturday 4min faster than any one in both classes we took 4 cones but dam she was flyin i just got out the dam way and let her run!

I can't believe this thread is still alive.



Die! Die! Die!:flipoff2:

~dso

Rockmonkey,What Jeep were you running?We worked our ass off to get 11th.Them little 33'ers just don't clear alot.I wanted to slap on my 36" swampers but my partner was afraid of breaking with them.
We had another Jeep with us that finished 3rd.He was on 35" goodyears.They bust there ass off also.They were able to do #5 Sat with no winch.He just launched it!
Pete kick down some video.The hood is trashed and the right fender.Lyle ordered a fiberglass hood and is pulling the fenders off.Also picked up a newer axle from Joel.Has the 297 joint.Should work for now.
DavidO,If you don't like this thread then don't read it!:flipoff2:

I was spotting for the Black Tj with 35 bfg's
and the yellow stickers on the hood

Blazin

I'll try to get you some pics next week when I get the tapes back. Unfortunatly, I do not have the hardware/software for the video yet. Alex is ordering Warns and CTM next week. Were going to the Supercrawl:flipoff2: Rockmonky, looked like you guys were having fun, too.