ok, now don't everyone laugh at once.

Has anyone put or know of putting an underdrive on a B/W?

I am constantly trying to balance my rig between a grocery getter and trail pig. I am facing some engine brake issues, and can't get any better without changing the gearing. It's an 89 rr w/32's, auto box and stock motor.

My thought is that with the underdrive I will still be able to drive at speed on the freeway without being at 4k plus at 70mph. I have had no power issues off-road, but I have been using the brakes just a bit too much for my taste.

I know that lot's of people are using them on LT's. Thoughts? Flames?

I don't know where one would be able to fit on a BW. On the 230 it takes the place of the cover behind the imput hole. Not to mention that I don't don't think the chain drive would hold up. When I swapped in a LT230 in to my 1990 RR, I gave the BW away to a friend to play with/analyze. I think he was so unimpressed with the unit that he lost it.

The reality is an LT230 swap is cheap and worth doing if you are even thinking about crawler box.

I know that it is not the best box, but I have gotten so used to just pointing and shooting it down the trail.

Susposedly the gang at ashcroft do a underdrive conversion as a swap. That's what I was referring to.

Johnny

Originally posted by ciocc77
I know that it is not the best box, but I have gotten so used to just pointing and shooting it down the trail.

um, ok. so instead of just pushing it forward into low range, you have to push it forward and to the left...

WHOOP-DEE-FAWKIN-DOO!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

the 230 is stronger, more reliable, cheaper to rebuild, more controllable, and you know it is locked, cause it is always locked when you want it to be. i have witnessed in the trail (esp in muddy conditions) that the BW still has a bit of give to take in before it locks, and that little bit in a momentum situation is the difference between making it or not.

and besides, if you cannot be bothered to move the damn lever one more detent before getting it, then i guess you cant be bothered to get out and air down your tires either. after all, why prep the truck when you can just point and shoot down the trail?\

id hate to see you bitch if you had a manual on the trail... ohhhh i dont like this, its too hard. i just like to point and shoot. :rolleyes: :rainbow:

IMO there are LOTS of things you should be doing to your truck before considering an underdrive/BW combo.

Besides totally agreeing with Briggs that the BW is a piece of crap and unworthy of an underdrive, I don't think that it'd fit.

I have had my BW fail in the absolute MOST inconvenient position possible. Remember that video of the person rolling their 4-runner down the gates of hell in moab? Well, that was where my BW conked out and left me with ONE friggin' wheel spinning in the air. FAWWWWK!

I had to get towed up and out. It's a fawkin' miracle I didn't roll backward and do the ol' turtle.

Get rid of the dang thing if you're really gonna wheel that truck.

Save your $$$ and do an LT-230 conversion.

Better yet, buy a late '89 with the 3.9, non-ABS and LT-230. You could probably buy that truck for the amount you'd spend on the Ashcroft underdrive.

Later,

Michael

Damn Adam !!!!!!!!! Bad day at high school today or what? It is towards the end of the year, did you not get laid at prom? Take a deep breath and go four wheeling, and talk to us in the morning.

Dr. Way:flipoff2:

"Better yet, buy a late '89 with the 3.9, non-ABS and LT-230. You could probably buy that truck for the amount you'd spend on the Ashcroft underdrive"

No such truck exists. All 89s (and thus all 3.9s had the BW)

Ron

I agree with ditching the BW it's junk and if you have big tires it doesn't lock up enough to get both driveshafts turning. The underdrive is really awesome just be sure to get the one with the right amount of teeth, 26 or 28. The LT230 is pretty easy and there are a few center console mods to do (hacking). With an automatic the underdrive is not needed as much so I would save it unless your truck is already built up heavily.

I remember seeing a picture in an old LR mag some time back, showing a RR 3.9 w/ B/W, one of the rear wheels was sat on a set of rollers (thus giving 'no grip') and the one of the front wheels had a kind of 'wedge' chock thing under it. what SHOULD have happened is the B/W should have locked up and allowed the rangie to drive up over this 'obstacle' with the front axle, but alas, it just sat there spinning the rear wheel.


Get an LT230. and if you REALLY feel like spending some $$$, then drop the center diff out, and install a Quaiffe one, which you can order any % ratio you want, so you (well, i...) would get one with the torque % bias set at 50% front and rear, AND you can still lock it by pushing the short stick to the left.

that WOULD be sweet! best of both worlds.

Jamie

Originally posted by 9-Volt


um, ok. so instead of just pushing it forward into low range, you have to push it forward and to the left...

WHOOP-DEE-FAWKIN-DOO!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

the 230 is stronger, more reliable, cheaper to rebuild, more controllable, and you know it is locked, cause it is always locked when you want it to be. i have witnessed in the trail (esp in muddy conditions) that the BW still has a bit of give to take in before it locks, and that little bit in a momentum situation is the difference between making it or not.

and besides, if you cannot be bothered to move the damn lever one more detent before getting it, then i guess you cant be bothered to get out and air down your tires either. after all, why prep the truck when you can just point and shoot down the trail?\

id hate to see you bitch if you had a manual on the trail... ohhhh i dont like this, its too hard. i just like to point and shoot. :rolleyes: :rainbow:

Ok. WHO THE FAWK PISSED IN YOUR WHEATIES!

I can take shiat as well as give it, but, consider the following.

I have been driving "off road" for as long as you have been alive.

I learned to drive off road in a porsche motored rail job, that at the ripe age of eleven I helped build the motor for.

Also, I have never been "in the trail" is that a frickin zen thing?

You have never met me, seen me or wheeled with me, so keep the personal shiat to yourself.

Oh, and one more thing, listen to Way if you won't listen to me.

Johnny
:flipoff2: :mad3: :flipoff2: :mad3: :flipoff2: :mad3: :flipoff2: :mad3:

ok, heres the deal.

Unfortunately, everthing in my drive train works. I KNOW that the 230 is a better box. But, since this is also a daily driver, I can't justify fixing something that ain't broke and mine doesn't even leak! (and no it's not empty).

B/W's that work, work great. Those that don't really suck. What I am trying to do is find a way to re-gear for better low range performance with 32-33 inch tires, without sacrificing highway driveability. So rebuilding the box or messing with low makes more sense to me than changing the axles to 4:11's or 4:56's.

Given that my goal is to keep the highway driveability, what other real world choices? Swap a 230 with different low's?

"IMO there are LOTS of things you should be doing to your truck before considering an underdrive/BW combo.'"

ok micheal,

What else besides 1.25" steering gear, relocated; HD axles w/lim slip, re-engineered brakes with a metal plumbing, oversized ujoints, 10-11" front 15" rear travel, special bushings, skids and armor, 3 inch lift, and 32's would you put on a daily driver?
j

Short answer:

It depends....

Smartass answer:

Warantee

Real answer:

It depends...

Seriously, it does depend. On my SWB RR which is my daily driver, I *still* haven't replaced the B/W even though it damn near cost me my truck because I haven't had it fail again (238XXX miles BTW). I KNOW that it's gonna fail, but until it does I'm not going to do anything. That truck is slated for an iminent retirement, so I'm trying to just squeeze enough ot of it until I can replace it with another LWB. I am just saying that so you know that I totally empathize with your situation.

Hmmm, I think I might add a second set of wheels/tires for road use only. Run them super high PSI to squeeze all of the dino-juice that ol V8 can muster. Maybe some 18 inch rims????

Sounds like you're ready for a front diff upgrade. It's also just a matter of time before the 2-pin fails and it's really ugly. A 4-pin off of a series truck, or a RR II will bolt right in BTW. An ARB is always nice even if it never gets plumbed.

Bushings and shocks are always a quick way to get some more pep out of a tired daily driver (ask me, I know...). Mine are all wayyyy tired and need to be replaced. Again, I'm just gonna milk her till she's' dry.

A CB radio would be a great investment (and I truly consider the CB an investment even though it's cheap on the $$$ scale of things).

Upgraded headlights and harness are also really nice. I run an IPF harness with el-cheapo Hella H4 bulbs at 100/140.

Basic maintenance is also a great investment for a daily driver. Make sure your PS hoses don't leak (forget worrying about the box), the tranny cooler fittings are also prone to leakage. Check your a/c hoses. If they are oily at all under the plastic cover you have a leak and might consider getting new ones rebuilt (don't buy factory, they are made by Aeroquip anyway).

Some good CD's and a nice stereo are paramount if you really drive in it alot.

One thing I would consider is blacking-out the panel on the scuttle that angles back toward the driver. That has always caused problems for me until I blacked out the entire hood. Additionally, I have disliked the wood grain trim on the shift lever panel. It gives me serious reflection problems at about the same angle of the sun that the scuttle vent does.

You didn't mention winch/bumpers, so I won't go there.

One thing that I really really like, that I have used quite a bit, are some disconnects for battery cables that I have run to both the front and rear of my trucks. I have jumper cables with the corresponding disconnect on them, and even made a jumper cable with disconnects on each side so I can jump all of my trucks w/out opening the hood. Trick, really not important in the larger scheme of things, but when you run out of stuff to do....

Well, you asked for it.

Later,

Michael

No problem, I can take it.

I have every thing you mentioned except the black out hood. I am waiting until I blow the diff befor I put in a new one.

The bumper is a modified "great divide" edition.

j

hey michael - what wouldn't crap out on you @ over 230K miles??!! :crybaby2: :flipoff2:

i've driven through some amazing crap on the BW unit; obviously a fully locked center dif is better in most off-road scenarios, but I don't think it the BW sucks wind as much as you guys are trying to make it sound like.

my .02 -

isaac

Ok, when they work properly they aren't to bad, ask Way, he is still using his. When you start to have a problem they suck. My viscous coupling went bad in the course of day to day driving, no big deal, but I really had no way of knowing. So I took the family out for some mild wheeling with a buddy, well I only had 1 wheel drive. I realized this when I poped a CV. The path of least resistance was to the broken CV, an the truck would no longer move under its own power.

I replaced the CV's and for $500 I threw in an LT230 and called it done. As I recall the Viscous coupling alone was more than that.

That being said, I am a fan af break it first, then replace it, the problem was that I didn't know when it was broken and when it wasn't.

-Jeff

Alright Isaac,

The original point of this thread was weather or not it was worth it to put an underdrive on a B/W unit.

Several have said it's a waste of time. I still maintain that opinion.

Several have said it's a piece of crap. I still maintain that opinion.

Yeah, it works great when it's young, fresh, and relatively untested. Get it up in miles and you starts to take your chances, so to speak.

I have spoken with other B/W RR owners who have had their units fail on them in Moab as well.

Fact is, and you admitted it, the LT-230 is a better unit. Infinitely more tweakable, undoubtedly more robust, and quite frankly, easier and cheaper to obtain. Don't try putting a b/w behind more than 210hp you are running on borrowed time (just like you are now, but the clock just sped up). Put an LT-230 behind 400+hp and it will be happy. Nuff said???

Maybe not...

None of the LandCruiser and Jeep guys are considering putting a b/w unit in their vehicles, but they are slowly but surely putting the LT-230's in. If you plan to install one in your truck I'd suggest starting to look for one now before they become scarce.

Also, I don't know of anyone who is going the *other* direction with a swap (if you find one be sure to let me know).

The B/w unit didn't crap out on me today (230xxx miles), it crapped out on me at under 175xxx miles. The LT-230 wouldn't have suffered the same problems at 300xxx miles.

Let's see, yeah, there are lots of things on my RR that have failed catastrophically on it due to high mileage, but none of them did when my life could have been in jeopardy. If you can't let me bitch about that, then well, tough.

Good luck on your decision to stick with your B/W. I'm sure it will be the right one.

Johnny, I think that you're truck is pretty set up to be a daily driver. Don't do a thing to it. Even with all the shit I give the B/W unit in my truck, fact is, I've been driving around with no rear propshaft for a week waiting for my rear driveline to be finished.

Yours will probably last a long time. You might consider 4:10's or lower if you can stand the highway speed. Other than that I think you're pretty much stuck with what you've got.

Later,

Michael

Originally posted by Way
Damn Adam !!!!!!!!! Bad day at high school today or what? It is towards the end of the year, did you not get laid at prom? Take a deep breath and go four wheeling, and talk to us in the morning.

Dr. Way:flipoff2:

yeah kind of, i just finished typing a 5 page paper on catholic christianity :rolleyes:

so sorry i was in a bad mood, you would be too after writing that! :D

ok, let me state my opinion in a civil manner :flipoff2:

You say that since the BW hasnt let you down, you see no need to replace it. Well, by installing an underdrive on it, you are asking for a reason to break it. i think that the ratio for the crawler is 2.6:1, so imagine running a 450 lb-ft of torque motor, with your transmission, and the BW TC. would you? yes. would it last? hell no!

Your range rover is currently at what i like to call the edge of the pit. you can either keep it the way it is right now, and be happy, not spend too much money on it, and just WHEEL, or you can take one more step and then just keep on falling. cause next you will break the BW, then you will put in a 230, then you will break the front end, then you will beef that, etc etc etc.

also, the fact is that you just simply do not need an underdrive. i know some may read this and say that im just jealous, but no. you are running a 3.9, auto, 32s, and stock gearing. that is essentially the same setup on the range rover in my driveway, except it is an 88 with a 3.5 and LT230. off road, this setup is just FINE. the auto gives so much more control. there is an excellent amount of throttle control, power, and crawlability with the 3.5 even. why do you feel that you need more? have you been hypnotized by ECR's website?

what you need to focus on is getting some lower gears in the axles. this alone will return you a much better performing vehicle on road and off. a change to 4.10s will return you to about the stock gearing, and you will gain driveability and off road finesse.

so, IMO, do that first, then when your BW breaks (and it will), swap in the 230. then, if after you put on some 38s, swap in 60s,and go to a manual, THEN you can get the crawl box, which is when you will actually need it.

which brings up another point in my mind. if you were to go ahead, ignore everyones advice on here, and get the crawler, you will only be abusing it whenever you use it. this will lead to broken axles, broken transfers, broken drivelines, and broken diffs.

be smart, spend the cash on something you REALLY need.

adam

y'all fessed up showed a little luvin for the borg-warner: mission accomplished. but man can some of you guys beat a dead horse. Just trying to keep things honest LOL

johnny, I believe ashcroft has a R&P just under the 4.10's, something around a 3.8 - this might give you the gain you're looking for w/o mucking up your highway ratios too badly.

cheers,

isaac

http://www.autoconv.com/

it is 3.8 R&P - put in 3.8's, get the lower gear for the LT230 and call it a day.

you might be able to order an LT230 w/ the lower gear installed for less than that crawler box.

Originally posted by 9-Volt
ok, let me state my opinion in a civil manner :flipoff2:

You say that since the BW hasnt let you down, you see no need to replace it. Well, by installing an underdrive on it, you are asking for a reason to break it. i think that the ratio for the crawler is 2.6:1, so imagine running a 450 lb-ft of torque motor, with your transmission, and the BW TC. would you? yes. would it last? hell no!

adam

Adam,
Much better. Thanks!

Where in sam hell do you get 450lb of torque? Last I checked, a normally aspirated 3.9 had somewhere around 235ft-lb.

Thanks for the correction post, religion can piss off a lot of people!

j
:flipoff2:

Originally posted by SeaRover
http://www.autoconv.com/


you might be able to order an LT230 w/ the lower gear installed for less than that crawler box.

That might be the ticket I think.

Originally posted by ciocc77


Adam,
Much better. Thanks!

Where in sam hell do you get 450lb of torque? Last I checked, a normally aspirated 3.9 had somewhere around 235ft-lb.

Thanks for the correction post, religion can piss off a lot of people!

j
:flipoff2:


because i was factoring in the torque multiplitation of the 2.6:1 Cbox, and showing the kinds of stresses it produces. and according to the 235ft lb measurement, if you were running no crawler box but with the same amount of torque, you would be at 611ft lbs, not including the reduction from the auto.

so basically what i am saying is that running a crawl box with the 235ftlb, would be like running 611ft lbs with no crawler box, at least as far as stresses put on the BW goes.

get it now?

the last time I checked, the price of a low crawl gear set from GBR was astronomical. Is this what you guys are talking about for the LT 230?

I guess the chain in the BW is a little narrow, however, chain driven boxes are handling way more power than our 3.9, 3.5 engines! I do have to agree on the Viscous coupling though, it can be kinda flaky! I like the idea of a *diff lock* lever so that I know I got 50-50 split. Heck, I miss the good old fashion hub locks too but oh well.

How much heavier is the LT230 over the BW? You might also notice a bit of gear whine depending on the age of the LT you find.

Ali, I understand about pining for the old school hubs with a coil axle.

Well, let me tell you what we're working on this weekend.

Front coil axle, vented disc brakes, freewheeling hubs, part-time LT-230.

All the parts are ready, I just have to get up to the shop and bolt it all back together.

I'll send some pics to Way after I get her all bolted together.

Later,

Michael

anyone who wants to get rid of their LT gear whine just give me a call :p

I'd love to trade it out for all my "clunks" and "clanks" . . . my chain drive is dying a slow death @ 135k


cheers w/ :beer: 's

-isaac

Originally posted by SeaRover
http://www.autoconv.com/

it is 3.8 R&P - put in 3.8's, get the lower gear for the LT230 and call it a day.

you might be able to order an LT230 w/ the lower gear installed for less than that crawler box.

The only lower low range I'm aware of is the maxi drive low range sold by GBR. They go for around $2500 which is about the same price as the underdrive unit and won't go in the BW unit anyway. Have we confirmed that the underdrive won't even fit on the BW?

9-volt, if high school is too hard and upsets you that much I suggest dropping out immediately. And don't try college either, a term paper may drive you to murder.

Got the news from Ashcroft today. No underdrive for the BW, but it can be re-geared. Cost prohibitive.

Sorry for the dead horse beating earlier, but (I can't believe I'm saying this) I value y'alls experience and opinions. Even 9-volts, (god I hope he doesn't know about Columbine).

I am stuck with this beast as a daily driver for a while and I am just trying to explore ways to keep that top end speed.

[i]anyone who wants to get rid of their LT gear whine just give me a call :p

I'd love to trade it out for all my "clunks" and "clanks" . . . my chain drive is dying a slow death @ 135k

-isaac

Hate to break this to you but changing out the BW won't get rid of that lash you have in your drivetrain! Even after I changed out the chain, the lash from an old drivetrail still prevailed. But it'll still help:)

Originally posted by alia176


Hate to break this to you but changing out the BW won't get rid of that lash you have in your drivetrain! Even after I changed out the chain, the lash from an old drivetrail still prevailed. But it'll still help:)

I spent a short time working at a LR dealer, (in service) and one of my customers wanted to by a disco, as his rangie was getting worn, and loose he said. We we let him drive one of the loaners we were selling (10k miles), when he came back, "that damn thing clunks into gear worse than mine!" I just smiled... some things don't get better with newness.....

j