I do not want the FOF to be in the position of becoming an enforcement group for moral behavior. Our main focus is and will remain trail etiquette, maintenance and legal issues but during our run last weekend I observed some stuff that I feel I must comment on. I don't know if drinking on the trail is on the rise or I am just now more aware but I have seen what I perceive as a rise of drinking while driving and downright driving while drunk. That being said I do feel this is a case of a few isolated individuals or clubs lack of judgement.

I personally tried to help one individual that was stuck on Winch Hill 3 and he was so drunk he could not understand what I was saying. I was hoping his friends would help but they, for the most part were in no better shape. I did try to get him to exit the vehicle but had no luck. Even his friends could not accomplish that. Luckily one of them was broken and they had to stop and spend the night. Another in our group came upon a driver that had to bypass because of a stuck vehicle in the group. That person drove off trail and was drunk as well. Then he became abusive when told his driving was not appropriate after hitting several trees.

A lot of us like to tip a few at the end of a great day of wheeling after we are in camp for the evening. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe even stopping for lunch on the trail and having a beer or two. I am not going to comment on that. Each person must judge what is appropriate for themelves and others in their group.

What is not appropriate is to let your friends endanger themselves and others by driving down the trail, beer in hand and being totally incapable of directing their vehicle. I will stand a little more errect on my soapbox now and state that each of us has the responsibility to comment to our friends or even others when we see this kind of behavior. Drinking and driving and driving while intoxicated are both crimes and neither action is right. These are the kinds of things that will focus attention of the worse kind on the off road community.

I haven't yet decided if I personally need to take pictures and report this kind of behavior. I probably should. My purpose in writing this, my first editorial is to get all of us thinking about our future use of our trails and how we can best ensure our continued access.

Thanks for bearing with me on this,

Bret

Well said Bret.

Well said Bret.
x2

Thanks Bret. I agree that putting yourself and others in danger and risking what could be a fatal accident needs to end.

my first trip to fordyce was last weekend and i could not believe how many people were trashed. one guy lost his brakes in a taco when trying to clim up the side of the winch hill where the wagen wheel is and lost his brakes and rolled backwords about 200 ft before a tent stoped him. thank god that knowbody was in it. its one thing having a drink or two but getting smashed to the piont where you dont know what your name is, is'nt right.

Word!:D

Bret,

This is exactly the right subject for a first editorial. I too am not anti alcohol but the type of behavior described here is what is going to do us in. If you want an all day animal house kegger, do it somewhere else. You won't remember the trail anyhow.

just by chance saw this thread. I think it should be under General, because it is being done at almost every trail out there. & the whole rockstar thing don't apply (I play better when I am drunk.......I wheel better when I am drunk)

Thanks for standing up & saying somethin...

& just to add, it seems usually the most drunken ones are the ones that leave the biggest mess behind (I.E. not cleaning up after rollovers, cleaning up camp, cleaning morning after puke & shit athons wich always seem to be in the middle of the trail)

I personally think pictures and names SHOULD be posted. Put them in such a light than no one will associate with them. those who do will carry the same stigma.

I cant stand drunken folks on the trails they dont know how bad they make responsible wheeling look and how stupid they act or damage they cause. I say post the photos:smokin:

OK, I will give my opinino here. Take this from somneone who USED to drink a LOT on the trail... That was downright STUPID!!!!!! As I got older, I realized that the beer is still goiong to be ther at the end of the day., In the days since, i DON'T drink at all unless I am having lunch (1 or 2 beers),or when I get to camp. Last time I was on Fordyce there was a DRUNK ass kid there (I am ashamed to say he was in the group with us, but would no listen). We tred to tell him to stop, but he would not listen. We split off from the group the next day after they brought out guns and started shooting up their rig... Talk about stupid. I WILL take pictures of rigs where the people are obviosly hammerd. If someone is just drinking and is obvioulsy sober, no big deal.

Dima

wheeling while drunk and drinking while wheeling should be and I believe IS immediate grounds for DUI, and should be handled accordingly. In my opinion, it's more dangerous than driving drunk out in the regular world. If somebody gets seriously hurt because of you, you're not 10 mins from a hospital, or 3 mins from paramedics that'll come get you and take care of you. It's ridiculously stupid, and should be punished brutally.

Shooting there own rigs what a group of tards:barf:

IMO when drunks drive it endangers others on the road or trail. It is IMO your duty to call out and expose these tards. The drinkers need to know that it is o.k. for someone to put them in check to protect others around. if they get loud and dumb just shut em down. It is not worth it to let the drunk carry on, to many things at stake.

just remember the more on the board the more ammo for the other side. If something needs to be handled do it off the board.

I cant stand drunken folks on the trails they dont know how bad they make responsible wheeling look and how stupid they act or damage they cause. I say post the photos:smokin:

I see just as many sober people being stupid and making the sport look bad. I drink on the trail but I don't need to get trashed to have fun. You know the saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" same applies with alcohol. If you cant be responsible then maybe yes actions should be taken and that goes for drinking, carrying a fire arm or driving wrecklessly. The way I look at it is on the trail there is a diffrence beween drinking and driving and driving drunk, one of those two I do not do. I see the concern here but it goes further than alcohol... Regaurdless certain behavior isn't appropriate drinking or not. In no way am I saying I'm right, this is just how I feel about it.

True non intoxicated people foul it up as well but I am one of the few whom has to go out and bring back the drunken individuals after a crash and patch em up or have to go put out a forest fire they started from a camp fire.

To blackwidowcj , I for one hope you get a ticket and your vehicle impounded for drinking while driving even if it is on the trail.
Dick Wentworth

I see just as many sober people being stupid and making the sport look bad. I drink on the trail but I don't need to get trashed to have fun. You know the saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" same applies with alcohol. If you cant be responsible then maybe yes actions should be taken and that goes for drinking, carrying a fire arm or driving wrecklessly. The way I look at it is on the trail there is a diffrence beween drinking and driving and driving drunk, one of those two I do not do. I see the concern here but it goes further than alcohol... Regaurdless certain behavior isn't appropriate drinking or not. In no way am I saying I'm right, this is just how I feel about it.

Well, I agree and disagree.

Drinking while driving is wrong. Drinking and driving after if not drunk is a judgement call but never a good idea.

I will agree that there is a lot of other behavior that has nothing to do with drinking that is equally as bad and should not happen.

Examples:

Driving off trail.

Not using a toilet or digging a latrene.

Picking a fight for no reason.

Being plain obnoxious (loud at night, etc.)

Just because one is out in the forest doesn't mean it's a free for all.

That's reserved for the Hammers!:grinpimp:

This was said as a joke but a good friend pointed out it was not a good idea to joke like this so I am editing it out with this explanation.

Thanks Jes. You are right. Never a good idea to allow a free for all!

To blackwidowcj , I for one hope you get a ticket and your vehicle impounded for drinking while driving even if it is on the trail.
Dick Wentworth

Thanks "DICK" :flipoff2:

Excellent post and well said.

What this really comes down to is responsibility and consideration. Doesn't matter if it's an illegal, DUI, or legal, playing your music loud enough to disturb others around you, activity. There are people that will constantly be responsible and considerate of others and make the correct choices. Then there are those that will not and do not. Some of us fall more to one side or the other.

I believe that the irresponsible inconsiderate ones are in the minority but they can do enough damage to ruin it for all of us. Unfortunately there is not much an individual can do except try to talk some "sense" into these people. Confrontation can become dangerous. Picture taking and prosecution for resource damage is one solution. Education about responsible, considerate behavior is another.

Drinking and driving is just stupid. Save it for camp or home.

Thanks "DICK" :flipoff2:

Show some respect. Don't come in to my Rubicon forum with that tude. You have all but admitted to drinking and driving in a public forum. Are you 12??

Brett, I heard rumor of an incident recently involving your club. When it is all over I do hope names will be posted here. Heads on a pike. That's what we need. From the story I heard, that was pretty much handed to you. Someones business could suffer from this greatly.

Also, remember as a mod you have the power to band at you fangertips.

Scott

OK, I will give my opinino here. Take this from somneone who USED to drink a LOT on the trail... That was downright STUPID!!!!!! As I got older, I realized that the beer is still goiong to be ther at the end of the day., In the days since, i DON'T drink at all unless I am having lunch (1 or 2 beers),or when I get to camp. Last time I was on Fordyce there was a DRUNK ass kid there (I am ashamed to say he was in the group with us, but would no listen). We tred to tell him to stop, but he would not listen. We split off from the group the next day after they brought out guns and started shooting up their rig... Talk about stupid. I WILL take pictures of rigs where the people are obviosly hammerd. If someone is just drinking and is obvioulsy sober, no big deal.

Dima

dima, do you have a hard time letting things go? last year when the incident occoured that you are refering to happened, you hounded the kid on two boards(to my knowledge). he was severly yelled at by the "grown ups" that he normally wheels with for the "one incedent" you and your brother witnessed. back then you had him banned from the marlin board for "throwing beer cans in the camp fire" and "throwing his trash out on the trail". how did you witness any of this while you were towling(sp? to towle ones vehicle off) the truck down? now i do not condone making a mess out of our trails(but from the parties that i spoke with, that you didn't hound on the interweb, that were there you were no better with your bottles in the fire).

and as i understand it, it was a hood that was shot all in good fun and not "shooting his runner up" like you make it sound.

i do not aprove of drunk driving on the trail as much as i do not aprove of adults acting like children almost a year after an incident happened. dude did wrong and manned up to it. he also dosen't act like this any more. your continually following him around on the interweb and telling him to act like an adult while you act like a vindictive child is not cool

Take this from somneone who USED to drink a LOT on the trail....

does this mean that we should follow you around saying how you used to be a TRAIL DRUNK?

dude back off of the kid, he did about the same as you admitted to doing, but no one is following you around the web giving you shit. the shit last year at fordyce is over and dealt with move on.

ps i will pm you my number if you feel this needs any futher discussion.




mike

Mike, Dima,

As Mike suggested I think it's a good idea if you take any further conversation on this off line. The personal stuff doesn't really have anything to do with the thread except to demonstrate how much of a problem drinking on the trail can be.

Mike, it might be a good idea to edit your post to remove the fellow's name. Up until that point he was just that "kid."

Bret

I think many wheelers have had a drunken moment or two on the trail. From my experience heavy drinking and wheeling leads to bad things. People get hurt by mistake, climbing lines get careless, rigs get stuck and broken. I am not one to get pissed off when someone rolls down the trail with a beer in a cozy if they are acting resoponsibly. Getting shitfaced and proving how inbred you are doesn't make the trail fun for anyone. I think there is a general attitude with some people that "once in the woods, no rules apply". While it is true that there is no CHP waiting atop winch hill #2, that doesn't mean it is time for a sloshy free-for-all. This sport is about as much fun a person can have without driving a racecar (perhaps even more fun than that). These trails are not cake-walks though. They require good judgement and caution, two things booze impares. Having said that, I would be careful about posting pictures here. I want this sport to be as safe as it can be, but I also know how people take to their privacy being comprimised. Over the years I have seen people wasted, tweeked out, tripping balls etc. on the trail. I can only imagine the response if I had posted photos of them up on the net with names. These encounters have usually been some of the most uncomfortable moments I have had on the trails. Trying to confront these people about their poor choices has usually led to conflict. Ultimately I just try to give these people as much space as I can and not camp anywhere near them if possible. For me and many people out there, this is a family sport. People just need to remember to respect one another up there. So keep your eyes on your friends, keep them in check. It is easier for friends to moderate one-another than it is for stragers to get involved with a wasted idiot. Often there are rangers out on the trail. If someone is being dangerous then using them to resolve the problem is a safer route, IMHO. Is there a radio channel they track that you can call in on? If you do feel you need to act on a personal level to improve things, then hide your identity if at all possible. I would fear the backlash from the one crazy idiot who figures out your personal info and wants retribution. :shaking:

dude did wrong and manned up to it. he also dosen't act like this any more.

mike


Well if he doesn't act like this anymore, maybe it was what he needed. Glad to hear he came around.

I think there is a general attitude with some people that "once in the woods, no rules apply".

Trying to confront these people about their poor choices has usually led to conflict.


To the first, sadly it seems to be on the rise.

To the second, too true.

I attended the Rubicon Trail Patrol Meeting last Month. The El Dorado County Sheriff supervisor of the off-road enforcement task force spoke, as well as Merlin, who lives on the Rubicon and works for the sheriffs dept.

First point they drove home: Always be safe. Do not approach obviously intoxicated and agitated people on the trail. Observe, get pictures, get license plate #'s, and report them at the first opportunity. It may not lead to an immediate arrest. However, LE will not be on the lookout for them. Eventfully they will get busted, if they keep being asshats.

If LE can be notified there is a situation they are needed for, and they can respond, let them. You can be a good witness later.

If LE shows up, and determines they need backup, the will back off and wait for help. Remember, they will bring in the #'s to keep themselves safe.

The story told to drive it home was this: 2 drunk guys are fighting, neither is getting the upper hand. If the Deputy intervenes, now it is 2 drunk guys vs one deputy, good chance of getting hurt. Deputy stays back, lets 2 drunk guys wear out, which is exactly what will happen. If one guy is really pummeling the other, they call for backup. In other words, they use numbers of deputy's to overcome the the odds to stay safe.

Be smart out there, do not put your self in a dangerous situation even when your right. It's not worth getting hurt. Eventually the asshats will get caught as we build our relationships with LE, and continue to educate each other and those new to the sport.

Excellent advise here, glad I decided to read this thread. It always worries me when people have to justify having a drink to have fun. Is the trail itself not enough fun without the booze? How often is the phase "I've only had a couple, I can handle it" heard?

If you really can't get thru the day without the 1 or 2 beers, there may be a problem. Living in MI, I can only imagine having trails like this within driving distance to enjoy, why risk ruining it?

Just my thoughts, not yours.

Well, I agree and disagree.

Drinking while driving is wrong. Drinking and driving after if not drunk is a judgement call but never a good idea.

I will agree that there is a lot of other behavior that has nothing to do with drinking that is equally as bad and should not happen.

Examples:

Driving off trail.

Not using a toilet or digging a latrene.

Picking a fight for no reason.

Being plain obnoxious (loud at night, etc.)

Just because one is out in the forest doesn't mean it's a free for all.

That's reserved for the Hammers!:grinpimp:

This was said as a joke but a good friend pointed out it was not a good idea to joke like this so I am editing it out with this explanation.

Thanks Jes. You are right. Never a good idea to allow a free for all!

Thanks again Jes!

Living in MI, I can only imagine having trails like this within driving distance to enjoy, why risk ruining it?

Just my thoughts, not yours.

I wish more people in California could have empathy with this.

I agree completely with your editorial.

Well done.

I am an advocate of personal responsibility as well as the greater good.

I am an advocate of personal responsibility as well as the greater good.

Are you running for Congress?

Are you running for Congress?

last I checked personal responsibilty was not a common trait amoungst congressmen :flipoff2:

last I checked personal responsibilty was not a common trait amoungst congressmen :flipoff2:

Having it and being an "advocate of" are two totally different things. Answers that don't really pick a side of the fence are common traits amongst the politicians (and website owners :flipoff2:).

having it and using it are also completly diffrent.

so..


I have, use and advocate personal responsibility :flipoff2:

Politician gloves off. Does that mean you think it is okay to drink and drive on the trail?

Yes or No

Politician gloves off. Does that mean you think it is okay to drink and drive on the trail?

Yes or No

YES I think it is ok to have a drink on the trail as long as your capable of maintaining your personal responsibility.

NO I do not think it is ok to be drunk and irresponsible on the trail.

but my philosphy extents far beyond the DRINKING issue. apply my statment to any aspect of the sport and or life and we will all be much better off. Both personally and as a group.

I am not trying to rain on Tinmans parade or his editorial.....I am right there with him on the subject...

I respect that. Good to hear it said, instead of dancing around it with words. While I think a beer at lunch is okay and drinking at camp is fine, while driving just isn't necessary. The philosophy in general, I agree with.

Steve Gardiner

PS It easy for me to take a stand since I don't drink alcohol at all :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

PS It easy for me to take a stand since I don't drink alcohol at all :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

I don't burn USA flags but I will fight for peoples rights to do so.

I don't drink very often and usually not while wheeling, but to me the issue isn't drinking....it is being responsible. I have seen plenty of sober irresponsible idiots. It just bugs me that people think that drinking is the issue when it is irresponsible people in general. In the same way we know not all wheelers are bad, not everybody who has a beer on the trail is the problem. again...personal responsibility.

I hear you. They have outlawed drinking and driving but it is still legal to be stupid and living.

I don't drink very often and usually not while wheeling, but to me the issue isn't drinking....it is being responsible. I have seen plenty of sober irresponsible idiots.


Alcohol has a tendency to make the irresponsible person less responsible.

not everybody who has a beer on the trail is the problem. again...personal responsibility.

Agreed

Alcohol has a tendency to make the irresponsible person less responsible.


Alcohol seems to impair judgement, not responsibility. :)

It also seems to loosen inhibitions, making the irresponsible, worse. It also makes her clothes fall off.

Alcohol seems to impair judgement, not responsibility. :)


But it is the irresponsible person that willingly puts themselves in a position of impaired judgment when their judgment is marginal to begin with. :D

But it is the irresponsible person that willingly puts themselves in a position of impaired judgment when their judgment is marginal to begin with. :D

But your version of impaired judgement is different to my version of impaired judgement.

And has your mom told you that judgeing people isn't nice.:D

But your version of impaired judgement is different to my version of impaired judgement.

Agreed

And has your mom told you that judgeing people isn't nice.:D

Judge them as you find them. Never prejudge anybody, based upon any of those things that sometimes people are prejudged on. Norman Schwarzkopf


IMO it is foolish not to judge people by their actions....how can you hate the evil and love the good if you refuse to judge?

Yes this is getting off topic. :flipoff2:

Yes this is getting off topic. :flipoff2:

I am good at that. Your welcome.

Back on topic....

For the retards who don't know how to enjoy and adult beverage, thanks alot. You guys/girls/retards are effecting my individual freedom, to drive my toy on free land.

I have had a drink or two and have been behind the wheel. I am not a retard, can be a responsible, and I am being punished because of some idiots, preventing the idiots from becoming true to their form....idiots.

There is no true line between drinking and driving, because people react totaly different to alcohol consumption. That is why people are stupid idiots sometimes.


I will finish my thoughs later...

I'm not sure what's not to understand here.

Drinking and Driving is against the Law, open containers are against the Law.
Doing things that are out right against the law give all us wheelers a bad wrap even if you THINK your being responsible.
If you can't drink something other than alcohol while driving then you have a problem and your problem make us all look bad.

I'm not sure what's not to understand here.

Drinking and Driving is against the Law, open containers are against the Law.
Doing things that are out right against the law give all us wheelers a bad wrap even if you THINK your being responsible.
If you can't drink something other than alcohol while driving then you have a problem and your problem make us all look bad.

Tell that to the sober people equally screwing our trails. If it isn't alcohol, it is weed, if it isn't weed it is, crank, coke, but I haven't seen smack yet.

Talking shit makes us look bad, washing our trucks in the car wash makes us look bad, welding, cutting, grinding, in our front yards makes us look bad. Our beat to hell trucks makes us look bad. You as a wheeler don't need to point the finger at other wheelers. The alcohol is just the tip of the iceberg, the cherry on top, the apex of the curve. 80% of people don't take their 4wd out off the pavement. Most people don't realize that some wheelers have over 35k invested in their toy, and it still looks like hell. I don't drink on the pavement, at all. When we get to camp then it is on.

I don't think drinking makes wheelers look bad. I think it is the preception of the 80%. The 80% needs to realize that the drunk guy isn't the problem, the cause of the fires, the accidents, the roll overs, the deaths, just one of the things, the only things that the 80% can harp on.

I'd bet that the 80% haven't even seen what is on the other side of HWY80, it is clear cut/fresh planted trees.

I try not to have a beer on the trail, but when you get stuck behind trail tampons and are there for 2 hours, of coarse you will have a couple. Is that bad?

By anyway I am not defending public drunk driving. I just hate it when people like you, point the finger, say "Your wrong, it is against the law."

I'd bet you have MP3's or burned discs laying around your house, bought/sold something on ebay and didn't claim it on your taxes, worked "under the table"....etc.

Think before you point the finger, "he who casts the first stone." ---sound familar?

Your a wheeler also.

I don't think drinking makes wheelers look bad.

Wrong. It makes whatever else is happening look worse.

I try not to have a beer on the trail, but when you get stuck behind trail tampons and are there for 2 hours, of coarse you will have a couple. Is that bad?

If you are in a traffic jam on the highway, is it okay to pop open a beer?

Pull off the road/trail and I have no problem with you having a beverage.

If you are in a traffic jam on the highway, is it okay to pop open a beer?

Pull off the road/trail and I have no problem with you having a beverage.



I don't drink on the pavement, at all. When we get to camp then it is on.



Nice read.

I'm not a drinker but :beer: & Popcorn I'm enjoying the show.

By anyway I am not defending public drunk driving. I just hate it when people like you, point the finger, say "Your wrong, it is against the law."

Sound like a defensive statment to me. I wasn't pointing you out but you sure did try and point me out and belittle me alone.
My statement still stands Wheelers are already portayed as rebels just like bikers were 15 years ago so why an add to the impression buy blatantly braking the law in front of everyone. I have seen guys spilling their beers out the side while trying to drive. You say most of the people don't see this, Your wrong almost everytime I go out I either have my family with me or friends and not all of them are wheelers they just enjoy the outdoors and it leave a nice impression of OUR sport.
You also keep using this 80% number, I'll tell you where it fits, more that 80% of the garbage cans left on the trail are beer cans, I guess they must have been drinking one while they were waiting for the tampon to get through.

Sound like a defensive statment to me. I wasn't pointing you out but you sure did try and point me out and belittle me alone.


I was just pointing out that you are a good reader.

My statement still stands Wheelers are already portayed as rebels just like bikers were 15 years ago.

Look at it now.. a chopper shop in just about everytown.

I have seen guys spilling their beers out the side while trying to drive. You say most of the people don't see this.

I have never seen that. You must be part of that crowd...you rebel.:D

Your wrong almost everytime I go out I either have my family with me or friends and not all of them are wheelers they just enjoy the outdoors and it leaves a nice impression of OUR sport.


But they could be potential wheelers. Kinda like the chopper thing in the 80's. We all have different opinions on what wheeling is. I like to drive over big rocks, park my rig, enjoy an adult beverage, and heckle people like you who can't make it, or better yet brake your d44. :D (getting off topic)

You also keep using this 80% number, I'll tell you where it fits, more that 80% of the garbage cans left on the trail are beer cans, I guess they must have been drinking one while they were waiting for the tampon to get through.

That 80% is about how many people own a 4wd and don't ever use it. I am a wheeler and pickup trash on the trail. Hell my 4runner is the cadillac of garbage truck on the way out. I even started a thread of some asshat leaving a fire on barrett trail 2 years ago and posted it here, with his license.

To each his own man, I will drink a beer with you anytime :) I will just make sure it is an NA beer on the trail for you.:D

That 80% is about how many people own a 4wd and don't ever use it. I am a wheeler and pickup trash on the trail. Hell my 4runner is the cadillac of garbage truck on the way out. I even started a thread of some asshat leaving a fire on barrett trail 2 years ago and posted it here, with his license.


I give big thanx for ya carrying my trash :laughing: I remember that asshat that left the fire going at Barrett lake. He was the asshole in the red jeep and thought it was funny when he was leaving when we told him to put it out. I wonder if he ever got a ticket for that. :mad3: If the Forest service, Rangers cops and some people want to take beer off the trail then they should try taking jeeps off the trail.:laughing: I understand the jeep thing, I just don't understand the driver.

If someone is just drinking and is obvioulsy sober, no big deal.

Dima[/QUOTE]
But complete intoxication is not appropriate for the 4X4 community, especially when others are looking into our world, and are waiting for something to complain about.

[QUOTE=scmountaintech;7215678]If someone is just drinking and is obvioulsy sober, no big deal.

Are you suggesting that drinking and obviously sober while driving is ok? If this is what you are trying to communicate then you are giving not only the others you mention but ALL of us something to complain about.

If it's obvious you're hammered, that's retarded. If your actions, driving, and demeanor in general give the impression of safe and sober then good enough in my book. It's kind of the old law of the land (I keep harping on how much better it was when I got started). Never used to matter. Things have been cleaned up so much one must conform.






























Now if it's late late at night, raining, and nobody is on the trail! wooooooo if a drunk falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear him (puke) did he really make a sound? j/k :D just trying to add a little levity to a tense thread.

Wow half of the arguments are based on the fact that it's illegal. I havent seen one person bring up any evidence as to why it's wrong to have a beer or two on the trail while driving. Whats the difference then pulling over and drinking a beer. You're still driving with the same amount of alcohol in your system, you just had to stop to get it in there. Gimme a good reason why we have the open container law!

just remember the more on the board the more ammo for the other side. If something needs to be handled do it off the board.

This is exactley along the lines of what I was thinking (just said a lot nicer). Sometimes these stories just sound like gossip to me and sometimes very understanding in point BUT are you really telling any WHEELERS anything new or just trying to black label someone from the trail or ?? That type of behavior has always been around and I suspect it will always happen someplace sometime...just hope and pray that my loved ones and I aren't around to be there or blamed. So before some dummy talks shit...Yes I have been drunk and loud on the trail and EVerywhere for that matter so I do know both sides to how it looks to others but putting it out there on the net for everybody to see is not very smart!:shaking:

This is exactley along the lines of what I was thinking (just said a lot nicer). Sometimes these stories just sound like gossip to me and sometimes very understanding in point BUT are you really telling any WHEELERS anything new or just trying to black label someone from the trail or ?? That type of behavior has always been around and I suspect it will always happen someplace sometime...just hope and pray that my loved ones and I aren't around to be there or blamed. So before some dummy talks shit...Yes I have been drunk and loud on the trail and EVerywhere for that matter so I do know both sides to how it looks to others but putting it out there on the net for everybody to see is not very smart!:shaking:

yep... putting it in the public's eye is bad but sometimes it needs to be said. I think if the pussification of america wasn't so prevailant there would be nothing to discuss :D
I mean we didn't post pics of our pre camping clean up from some san francisco hat wearing cous cous eating, greenie fag... but we sure cleaned it up :D
So I've found out that I'm opted out from drinking and wheelin anyways... damn ratchet shifter sux, had I been drunk there'd be no way I would get to where I was going (facing the right direction at least) :)

just remember the more on the board the more ammo for the other side. If something needs to be handled do it off the board.

Posting pics although a great Idea like, most wanted... bad PR for our sport.. we need to find another solution. A great deal of people and clubs have come a long way in the last few years as far as responsability on the trails. I would hate to see our reputation continually smeared by a few drunken retards. Something to think about, How to handle this I mean. You know since they started giving DUI's on the con things have changed up there, maybe something to consider.

I see just as many sober people being stupid and making the sport look bad. I drink on the trail but I don't need to get trashed to have fun. You know the saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" same applies with alcohol. If you cant be responsible then maybe yes actions should be taken and that goes for drinking, carrying a fire arm or driving wrecklessly. The way I look at it is on the trail there is a diffrence beween drinking and driving and driving drunk, one of those two I do not do. I see the concern here but it goes further than alcohol... Regaurdless certain behavior isn't appropriate drinking or not. In no way am I saying I'm right, this is just how I feel about it.

The bottom line is it doesn't matter if you think it is alright to just drink a little while on the trail or on the highway in your rig. It is against the law to drink anything while driving your motor vehicle - end of story. Your are absolutely right when you say guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people............ vehicles don't kill people either, but drunks driving vehicles surely do kill other innocent people.

Unfortunately it's time for the responsible 4x4 enthusiasts to step up to the plate. Our sport has a bad enough rap and I'll do what is necessary to clean up the riff raff that contributes to my bad rap. As in life it's that 10% of idiots that don't give a shit that give the rest of the people a bad reputation.

It is against the law to drink anything while driving your motor vehicle - end of story.

I'd bet your life is black and white. :D

Wow, this whole thing is kinda ridiculous, I would be super pissed if someone posted a picture of me up here "labeling" me as a drunk or something, because I do drink and drive:eek: oh no no big deal sorry I like to relax and cruise down the trail eatin some seeds and sippin on a oat soda. No big deal, my rig is more than capable of doing any trail forward and backwards. I don't get shitfaced and act like a moron, but I do push the limits of my vehicle, and hold on to your hats might even roll it on its side!!!! Crazy for alot to comprehend but I always wear a seat belt wipe up any fluids and pick up any trash afterwards, and of course I stay on the trail!!

Well anyways just cause it is illegal in California dosen't mean it is nesscesarily right, there are other states were you can drive with an open container so whatever, I won't stop and if someone posts a pic up of me with any sort of label on it I will sue them for slander!:flipoff2: Well have fun with this stupid post, thought I would ad my .02 take it for whatever!!

amen brother lol cant wait to get some time off and go wheeling again!!

Silly I agree with 100% of your last 2 posts!:flipoff2:

Sober wheelers live it up!

I know it's not a good thing to have derelicts running around but it's a good time to watch them mess up their own stuff but it goes too far when they in-danger others on the trail.

I vote to keep them off trails.

Good read.

I'm with the Camo campaign on this one. I don't think we need more laws just more common sense.

This PC world is getting out of hand. We will soon suffocate our selves and way of life with everyone wanting someone else to do it this way or stop doing something. It hurts us all by giving "them" more power.


If I was out on the trail and some old guy came up and told me to calm down, I would. If I was out on the trail and saw something WAY out of line, I'd go let them know in the nicest "we're all wheelers and on the same team" kinda way I could. Common sense.:homer:

Freedom is a state of mind. I also vote for common sense.

As one person said most of the cans on the trail are beer cans is right. I pick them up to recycle. I notice the ones that disrespect the most is the locals. They are the dumpers. The people that drive a while to get there appreciate the place the most.
Some day the donators will buy me my under drive. Thank you.

Freedom is a state of mind. I also vote for common sense.

As one person said most of the cans on the trail are beer cans is right. I pick them up to recycle. I notice the ones that disrespect the most is the locals. They are the dumpers. The people that drive a while to get there appreciate the place the most.
Some day the donators will buy me my under drive. Thank you.

or get the trails closed:(

Yes litter will get it closed. Instead of talking about it why not pick up what you see. That way you feel good about what you did and you just may have preserved the trail for the future. Everyone needs to be proactive. Just my .02.

I notice the ones that disrespect the most is the locals. They are the dumpers. The people that drive a while to get there appreciate the place the most.

I think your right I'm a dumpster, I don't appreciate and disrespect the trail because I'm a local and only live 20 min from Fordyce. :shaking: Thanks!

I agree it's not good to find cans or trash on the trail and pick them up when I see it (sorry for taking your cans :p). But I do know a lot of locals and non locals that enjoy and respect the trail.

What are you doing Saturday? I'll be repairing the off camber section of the trail before the first crossing. Your more than welcome to come and help. Or better yet help Bret and FOF with the mud hole they will also be up there. :D

Have a great day!

Yes litter will get it closed. Instead of talking about it why not pick up what you see. That way you feel good about what you did and you just may have preserved the trail for the future. Everyone needs to be proactive. Just my .02.

I do,everyone
I know does too

I would like to help out, but a transmission swap is what I'm working on right now. Thank you for the invite. Maybe in the near future.

having it and using it are also completly diffrent.

so..


I have, use and advocate personal responsibility :flipoff2:

Well and simply stated. All the issues discussed here stem from
a complete lack of personal responsibility. Alchohol, litter, waste (:barf:)
are just the visible evidence. If everyone just took personal responsibility
for their actions and affect on their surroundings, there would be no issue.

JD

Ok, I can understand the drinking and driving thing cool, but the whole noise at night and acting stupid.... F! that, I go weelin to have fun and do as I want to get away from the stresses of everyday life. Be the one to come up to my camp fire and tell me I am being too loud or take pitcures of my rig. I will freekin curb stomp you on the closest rock I can find. This is America land of the free home of the brave and guess what I have served my time, thoes of you that have not don't have room to talk.

Ok, I can understand the drinking and driving thing cool, but the whole noise at night and acting stupid.... F! that, I go weelin to have fun and do as I want to get away from the stresses of everyday life. Be the one to come up to my camp fire and tell me I am being too loud or take pitcures of my rig. I will freekin curb stomp you on the closest rock I can find. This is America land of the free home of the brave and guess what I have served my time, thoes of you that have not don't have room to talk.

that is a good way to get shot

bret/ tinman-
i know this is a little off suject but do you or anyone else know (ring a ding) dan (always wants to bet on a game of shoes) red land cruiser hangs out at fordyce alot. just wodering what his pirate user name is or email or phn#. helped get me bump started after getting drowned in river last spring, white 4runner that had tube doors and no top. the night that guy crossed river 1 at like 450cfs + with his 4 year old in truck, that was a long cold ass night in shorts and t shirt.

I do know him. Was just talking with him a few days ago. I'll pm you his e-mail.

thanks I had his phn at one point and lost it. this helps

you or anybody else doin any snow runns in near future

Ok, I can understand the drinking and driving thing cool, but the whole noise at night and acting stupid.... F! that, I go weelin to have fun and do as I want to get away from the stresses of everyday life. Be the one to come up to my camp fire and tell me I am being too loud or take pitcures of my rig. I will freekin curb stomp you on the closest rock I can find. This is America land of the free home of the brave and guess what I have served my time, thoes of you that have not don't have room to talk.

You don't seem to understand how good ol' American freedom works.

You do NOT have the right to do anything you please, and everything you do can have a consequence. You don't have any more rights than the next guy and your rights stop where his begin. As soon as your right to enjoy something (loud music or whatever) starts infringing on his right to enjoy something else (peace and quiet), then there is a conflict. This is where common decency takes over, and when that fails, there are rules to follow.
If you are loud and obnoxious in public where it affects other people, you can expect somebody to complain. It is THEIR right. It is your consequence.

And don't forget that there also may be other consequences to your actions that may not nearly as immediate or tangible:
If you go out in the public lands and act obnoxious "because you can," other people who don't want to put up with you will use you as an example and make every effort to keep you (and the rest of us) OUT. Think about the greenie movement and how you may be fueling their shitstorm. Everything we do is under a microscope. Your poor behavior can help take away some of the "rights" we all think we have to use the land how we like to. Its really not a right- its a privilege that is slowly being taken away. Screw it up, and it will only get way worse.


So forget about what you think YOU have earned and what YOU deserve. Be responsible. Be respectful.
WE all deserve that from you, and you deserve the same from us. Nothing more.

You don't seem to understand how good ol' American freedom works.

You do NOT have the right to do anything you please, and everything you do can have a consequence. You don't have any more rights than the next guy and your rights stop where his begin. As soon as your right to enjoy something (loud music or whatever) starts infringing on his right to enjoy something else (peace and quiet), then there is a conflict. This is where common decency takes over, and when that fails, there are rules to follow.
If you are loud and obnoxious in public where it affects other people, you can expect somebody to complain. It is THEIR right. It is your consequence.

And don't forget that there also may be other consequences to your actions that may not nearly as immediate or tangible:
If you go out in the public lands and act obnoxious "because you can," other people who don't want to put up with you will use you as an example and make every effort to keep you (and the rest of us) OUT. Think about the greenie movement and how you may be fueling their shitstorm. Everything we do is under a microscope. Your poor behavior can help take away some of the "rights" we all think we have to use the land how we like to. Its really not a right- its a privilege that is slowly being taken away. Screw it up, and it will only get way worse.


So forget about what you think YOU have earned and what YOU deserve. Be responsible. Be respectful.
WE all deserve that from you, and you deserve the same from us. Nothing more.

Just to add to what Erik said, I understand wanting to go out into the wilderness to get away from the stresses of everyday life and let loose but there are just as many people that go out to find some peace and quite. If you cant respect that then you dont have room to talk. If I was you I would try harder finding places that you can do this without affecting the ones that want to have the quite. I myself go on plenty of trips that I know we plan on being loud and get drunk but we find places to do this that doesnt affect others and if someone does come up to us and asks us nicely to be quite then we apologize and turn down the noise. Oh and just incase your drunk ass doesnt like it when I tell you to please turn down the music I would be more then happy to watch you try and curb stomp me but good luck cause I'm betting that I'm bigger, stronger, and can fight better then some drunk punk with an attitude.

"i curb stomped him because he said i was being too loud, your honor"

:laughing:

A word to the wise.

Twice last year at the top of the hill at fordyce lake we ran into rangers on a sunday writing a few minor citations and checking drivers for intoxication.

We also saw the sheriff at the pavement coming out from meadow checking for OC's and overall glancing over all the vehicles coming out.

The LEO presence is increasing don't become a statistic that counts against the trail they are surveying the situation just like Rubicon was watched. Be wise or be part of the problem, we only have ourselves to blame if it becomes an issue

Thought I would add in my $.02 The idea of someone telling me that I shouldn't drink and wheel because its against the law just doesn't quite due it for me. Part of the reason I go out to the woods is so that I don't have to follow societies rules. I do follow my own rules which include lots of respect for trail I am on as well as the other people on the trail. If someone can responsibly drink a couple adult beverages while they cruise down a trail I see no problem with that. The people who are drunk, obnoxious, and a danger to themselves and everyone else around is a different story. They give wheeling a bad name and they usually do it even when they are sober. A beer in the lap while driving down the trail isn't a big deal as long as the person is in control.

I was at or should I say broke at winch hill #3. I myself though didnt see anybody a group from Truckee that was kind enough to give us a ride back down and fix my buddys rig... lots of winching haaha.
What were these people driving that were DWI?

I was at or should I say broke at winch hill #3. I myself though didnt see anybody a group from Truckee that was kind enough to give us a ride back down and fix my buddys rig... lots of winching haaha.
What were these people driving that were DWI?

hmmm thread started 4 years ago
I think they are home by now:p

:laughing:

my wheeling group had an issue this last weekend with drunks at fordyce. a guy crashed his rig into one of ours and we told him to stop because there was a 2 year old in the rig he hit, he then backed up and tried to go around again and broke out the taillight. his friends wanted to fight since we demanded he pay for the taillight.
We also felt very unsafe on the trail since they were firing rounds right off the trail.

Its one thing to have a couple on the trail but when your slurring your words and wanting to fight it doesn't make wheeling fun.
Is there something we can do to keep these assholes from ruining the trail for the rest of us? i think these are the same guys i was picking up cans after all along the trail

my wheeling group had an issue this last weekend with drunks at fordyce. a guy crashed his rig into one of ours and we told him to stop because there was a 2 year old in the rig he hit, he then backed up and tried to go around again and broke out the taillight. his friends wanted to fight since we demanded he pay for the taillight.
We also felt very unsafe on the trail since they were firing rounds right off the trail.

Its one thing to have a couple on the trail but when your slurring your words and wanting to fight it doesn't make wheeling fun.
Is there something we can do to keep these assholes from ruining the trail for the rest of us? i think these are the same guys i was picking up cans after all along the trail

take his pic, rig & driver + plate # & file with the sherrif
this is only legal thing you can do
fighting or shooting him will just lead to trouble
ya don't want to do a citizens arrest, opens you up to being sued.
you don't want to detain him for the cops, could get kidnapping charges:barf:

thanks, i will do that next time, the trip went well until we ran into them. sucks that some people don't think that there actions will get a bystander hurt and possibly close down the trail

There is cell phone coverage on the trail. Once clear I see no problem with a call to LEO's for asshats like that. Driving under the influence, vehicle damage, threat of bodily injury and unlawfull discharge of firearms:shaking:

WE don't need those types of people on OUR trail anyway.

90% of the posters. On this thread don't drink I go to the trail to get away from home, work life in genera .

90% of the posters. On this thread don't drink I go to the trail to get away from home, work life in genera .

Not sure about the "90% of the posters on this thread" part but I agree 100% about going to the trail to get away from all the daily grind.

Ok, I can understand the drinking and driving thing cool, but the whole noise at night and acting stupid.... F! that, I go weelin to have fun and do as I want to get away from the stresses of everyday life. Be the one to come up to my camp fire and tell me I am being too loud or take pitcures of my rig. I will freekin curb stomp you on the closest rock I can find. This is America land of the free home of the brave and guess what I have served my time, thoes of you that have not don't have room to talk.

Last time I checked my DD214 doesn't give me the right to act like an assclown.
And while the thread is an old one, the poster above is right, this is a good way to get shot. Also, if you are loud when drinking then you are probably A drunk, not drunk, but A drunk with a problem. And being a slave to your desire for liquor only demonstrates how weak you are. In general your rights end at the place where your actions are impacting another's rights to a peaceful nights sleep in this case.
Either we act right and manage the trail ourselves or the nanny state will do it for us.

Be the one to come up to my camp fire and tell me I am being too loud or take pitcures of my rig. I will freekin curb stomp you on the closest rock I can find. This is America land of the free home of the brave and guess what I have served my time, thoes of you that have not don't have room to talk.

I know this thread is an old one but I just stumbled across it so :flipoff2:

People like you sir are one of the reason's Tellico was shut down. The last trip we made (spring/summer 07) there were a group of 4 guys completely hammered to the point of not even being able to control thier vehicles :shaking: I don't mean became this way toward the end of the day while riding, I am almost certain they were this way before we left camp that morning.

One guy was so drunk that he stopped in the trail and starting holding his Jeep to the floor in Neutral on the way up to guardrail calling it a "piece of shit" and saying he was going to "blow it up" :shaking:. Other's including myself were trying to get him to stop or at least move it out of the way so we could get around him.

We finally made it through the day covering about 2/3 of the ground we normally do thanks to these cat's and low and behold when we get back to camp guess who is about 50 yards away partying :homer: It get's to be around 2am and everyone is trying to wind down and these guys are out of beer. They decide they will just take beer from other people because there is 4 of them and they will "kick everyone's ass" :shaking:

There were 3 of us in camp and many thanks to the 6 other individuals whom I can't recall names at this time that assisted with this situation. Details of what happened need not be posted here but I will tell you it opened my eyes to just how big this problem is. These weren't punk kids but fully grown men 2 of which were probably in thier 30's acting like this.

My take is this:
If your "good time" includes ruining it for everyone else then you are the problem.

If you have to prove yourself "macho" to anyone (or everyone) constantly to have a good time then you are part of the problem. I'm pretty sure noone at the entire ride cares if you can crush beer cans on your head, lift people's rigs off the ground with your manly muscles, do 1 arm pushups, etc. etc.


Last but not least if you bring 2 cases of beer (48 beers for the non drinkers) with you and run out on the first day yep, you guessed it PART OF THE PROBLEM.

I have never ridden Fordyce creek but would very much like to. I would prefer it not get shut down due to this behavior as I am sure there are those that would have enjoyed making the trip over to Tellico that now isn't possible

Derek

I've been to Fordyce a few times and have encountered similar characters. As stated earlier, when I go to the hills, it's to get away from jerks like this. I hate to say it, but the Rubicon is much more relaxed...think it might be because of the increased law enforcement. Never thought I would be one to lobby for more LEOs on the trail, but would rather let them handle the trouble makers rather than myself. I get it we need to police ourselves, but when asshats want to take these interactions to the next level, someone will get seriously hurt which could end up closing these trails for good.

I like to drink and blast my music too, but when asked to tone it down by a fellow wheeler when it's 2 in the morning just doesn't sound unreasonable. Some of these groups act like packs of wild dogs; because they out number those they encounter they will do whatever they want. If I want to be in that environment I don't have to drive to the mountains for it.

One positive thing is that the Tahoe NF is building a Jeep to help them patrol some areas... When its done I would assume we will see an increased presence by them in the areas that are easily reachable. Fordyce Lake, start of the trail to driveline hill, etc.

I for one think its a good thing, and unless you are up there doing stupid crap then I wouldn't worry about it. If you are a jackass then keep your eyes peeled :flipoff2:

Maturity & moderation is the key......

That, & policing our own.

Over the last few years I've watched as LE has increased throughout the Rubicon Trail. Ask yourself why that is? It's because the "Box" & other sections had way too many people getting way too out of hand........

People complain = more Law Enforcement presence.

Really glad this thread is still provoking thought. We need to remain vigilant concerning this and other isues to keep our trail open.