Hi,

I have a Salisbury front axle, wich I installed a Dana60 30 spline locker, made custom 1.3" shafts to go with 30 spline longfields. I´ve looked at many threads here on pirate and on Rovertracks website tech section on how to install 30 spline longfields into Rover Hubs. I think I followed every instruction very carefully, that is, I´ve bore the spindle to exactly 1.38" and pressed the toyota bush in. I installed the cv´s and everything was perfectly cleared, it had about 1 mm from the birfled to the wall of the spindle. However, as soon as I got the truck running for about 10 minutes, the front wheels got stuck.
After taking everything apart, I was amazed that the longfields were welded to the spindles.:eek:

Where did I messed up:confused::confused: I really don´t believe I didn´t bore the spindles too little, because I really followed very carefully the instructions from the guys who made this conversion here on pirate, and when I installed them, everything was perfectly cleared...

maybe you should call bobby long

WOW yes he called me this moring.
These 30 spline Longfields are desigened for Toyotas ONLY. Keith at Rover track makes a kit for these that does work well. If you don't machine enuff off of the CV shaft or in the spindle this could happen.

maybe you should call bobby long

Already did that...Bobby Long didn´t know the rover guys put 30 spline longfields in their axles. He thought that only Keith from Rovertracks had done that once and he had to machine the cv to fit the spindle, not the other way around. He said no way the longfields can get bigger, and if they are welded, they are ruined... So I believe warranty doesn´t appy to this unfortunately...

I really would like to now were I messed up, because I have an extra pair of longfields, but don´t know what to do now...

You've got to turn dowm the CV shaft. I do it, Cooper does it.

a .999" bar will fit in a 1" hole but don't try to turn it without lubrication.

Take your other CV's make some jaws for the lathe that will hold one flat on the CV the other two will need to hold on the round part of the bell.
To get a good finish I use a TIan coated carbide triangle insert with .32 radius, I turn them at about 800 RPM and take about .010" at a shot. Take about ..0325" off the diameter.

Don't have a lathe? Buy them from me I only charge $45 to turn the CV's. If you buy a kit developed by me I do it for free.

You've got to turn dowm the CV shaft. I do it, Cooper does it.

a .999" bar will fit in a 1" hole but don't try to turn it without lubrication.

Take your other CV's make some jaws for the lathe that will hold one flat on the CV the other two will need to hold on the round part of the bell.
To get a good finish I use a TIan coated carbide triangle insert with .32 radius, I turn them at about 800 RPM and take about .010" at a shot. Take about ..0325" off the diameter.

Don't have a lathe? Buy them from me I only charge $45 to turn the CV's. If you buy a kit developed by me I do it for free.


I didn´t realize you had to turn the cvs down...Most of the threads in pirate don´t mention this...but will do that for sure now. Nevertheless I never imagine the longfields would expand that much with heat, because they had pretty clearence when installed. Didn´t bought a direct kit because I am in europe, and imports from the states have to be minimum for cost reasons.

How about the pair of longfields welded to the spindles? Any suggestion on how to reuse them? Or the trash can is the only destiny for it?

Thanks for the tips Revor. How about the internal diameter of the spindles? What should it be?

If the splines of the longs fit through the spindles that is enough if you turn the CV shaft.
As for the hot ones, I would turn the stubs off and have a look, chances are they got a bit hot and could be ruined, if they clean up okay you could carry them as spares..

If the splines of the longs fit through the spindles that is enough if you turn the CV shaft.
As for the hot ones, I would turn the stubs off and have a look, chances are they got a bit hot and could be ruined, if they clean up okay you could carry them as spares..


The splines of the longs fitted through the spindles with plenty of clearance, and it turned very weel. Everything installed, with the truck up in the elevator, the wheels turned perfectly! I can´t seem to understand what happened other than the longs expandaded too much with the natural heat of movement.

As for the hot ones, I would turn the stubs off and have a look, chances are they got a bit hot and could be ruined, if they clean up okay you could carry them as spares..

C'mawn Keith! These are the new "Fuse" Longfields:flipoff2:

C'mawn Keith! These are the new "Fuse" Longfields:flipoff2:


We hate fuses!!! We think tires should be Fuses! That used to be easy until everyone wanted to run 50" tires!!

Are these the ones you're selling at 7-Eleven?

:flipoff2:

Are these the ones you're selling at 7-Eleven?

:flipoff2:

:flipoff2: beat me to it!

Are these the ones you're selling at 7-Eleven?

:flipoff2:


Well yeah! These CV's help the store owners hedge the price of fuel by offering the Best CV's

What Keith said - machine the shafts. I helped Michele install his rovertracks kit in his D90. One of the spindles didn't need to be bored - the CV stub fit through straight away, the other one we bored until the long just fit through. Everything is working fine - hey Michele?

There are a fair few people who have done the mod in OZ using (unmachined) toyota CVs (and longs?). Are stock toy CVs necked down? If not, maybe ask the guys on outerlimits4x4.com what they bore their spindles to?

What Keith said - machine the shafts. I helped Michele install his rovertracks kit in his D90.(...)the other one we bored until the long just fit through. Everything is working fine - hey Michele?

Eh?Uh?What?

Oh,yeah,everything is working fine,yup.
Yup.





Just a thing...one side turns red and glows in the dark...

Is it normal?
:D

The spline on a stock toy CV is rolled so the shaft is a bit smaller than the spline. I would highly recommend that anyone condsidering this machine their cv stub shaft down, you're not loosing anything strength wise.

The spline on a stock toy CV is rolled so the shaft is a bit smaller than the spline. I would highly recommend that anyone condsidering this machine their cv stub shaft down, you're not loosing anything strength wise.

Is the shaft soft enough that it can be machined without resorting to heroics?

Or, is carbide mandatory in this application?

"To get a good finish I use a TIan coated carbide triangle insert with .32 radius, I turn them at about 800 RPM and take about .010" at a shot. Take about ..0325" off the diameter."

They're about 48RC. Not only are they hard but they are tough! I can do one CV per point on the triangle insert, I may try ceramic inserts once I run out of the inserts I have.. I only use Iscar as they are the only ones that have held up, the same grade/coating/profile in other brands have died a quick death and the import inserts won't last one pass!!

Using the procedure above is about the only way you could do it unless you did it really slow and take a bigger chip. Then you need a lathe that is far more ridged than the one I have.

the import inserts won't last one pass!!
Then you need a lathe that is far more ridged than the one I have.

Imports, eh? That leaves me out.

More ridged, or rigid?:flipoff2:

Rigid like this one that followed me home?

What Keith said - machine the shafts. I helped Michele install his rovertracks kit in his D90. One of the spindles didn't need to be bored - the CV stub fit through straight away, the other one we bored until the long just fit through. Everything is working fine - hey Michele?

There are a fair few people who have done the mod in OZ using (unmachined) toyota CVs (and longs?). Are stock toy CVs necked down? If not, maybe ask the guys on outerlimits4x4.com what they bore their spindles to?

I am getting seriously confused now:confused::confused: If you fitted some 30 longfields in a unbored spindle (even if machined down 0325" off the diameter), and the other one was just bored until the long just fitted through, no way my spindles could be too tight!

Today I fitted a longfield in a original toyota spindle and it was very similar in clearence to my bored rover spindles.

I will take no chances and probably will make new custom spindles with LOTS of clearence, because I still haven´t seen where the problem is, other than the longfields expandaded too much with heat movement.

By the way, anyone in the market for 2 longfields with "double" heat treatment and a couple of welded bits for strenght?! :flipoff2:
Will post some pics of the carnage tomorrow...

I am getting seriously confused now:confused::confused: If you fitted some 30 longfields in a unbored spindle (even if machined down 0325" off the diameter), and the other one was just bored until the long just fitted through, no way my spindles could be too tight!

Today I fitted a longfield in a original toyota spindle and it was very similar in clearence to my bored rover spindles.

I will take no chances and probably will make new custom spindles with LOTS of clearence, because I still haven´t seen where the problem is, other than the longfields expandaded too much with heat movement.

By the way, anyone in the market for 2 longfields with "double" heat treatment and a couple of welded bits for strenght?! :flipoff2:
Will post some pics of the carnage tomorrow...

FerRi - the longs we fitted were supplied by Keith as part of his kit and machined by him. I have another pair of longs I have machined down myself (or rather the machinists at work) but haven't fitted yet. As Keith posted, the stock toyota CV stubs are necked down slightly.

FerRi - the longs we fitted were supplied by Keith as part of his kit and machined by him. I have another pair of longs I have machined down myself (or rather the machinists at work) but haven't fitted yet. As Keith posted, the stock toyota CV stubs are necked down slightly.

How about the lifetime warranty? Don´t you loose it if you machine the cv´s?

How about the lifetime warranty? Don´t you loose it if you machine the cv´s?

If I machine them I will warranty them regardless, since I have contol of the finish and so on, Since none have broke I have not had cause to try it with the manufacturer.
I'm guessing it depends on what breaks. Turning down the stub won't make it any weaker if the finish is good.

Today I fitted a longfield in a original toyota spindle and it was very similar in clearence to my bored rover spindles.

I will take no chances and probably will make new custom spindles with LOTS of clearence, because I still haven´t seen where the problem is, other than the longfields expandaded too much with heat movement.

By the way, anyone in the market for 2 longfields with "double" heat treatment and a couple of welded bits for strenght?! :flipoff2:
Will post some pics of the carnage tomorrow...

It won't have anything to do with heat. If the clearance was really adequate all I can think of is loose bearings. Was the endfloat OK on the CV?

Was there oil or grease in the swivel ball?

JP

It won't have anything to do with heat. If the clearance was really adequate all I can think of is loose bearings. Was the endfloat OK on the CV?

Sorry, but what do you mean with endfloat on the the cv?

Was there oil or grease in the swivel ball?

JP
Do you have to put grease in the swivel ball?!?!?!?!?:confused::confused:
Just kidding,:flipoff2: yes, it had grease both inside the cv, in the swivel ball and we also greased the stubaxle of the cv before installing it.

Sorry, but what do you mean with endfloat on the the cv?



When you look at the drive flange, beneath the snap-ring, there are a coupla shims that set the amount of free play between the CV joint and the drive flange. If you did not have sufficient end-float, you may have had binding in more than one dimension as things began to heat up, contributing to, or exacerbating the binding and eventual seizing you experienced.

Good catch Red

[QUOTE=FerRi;6902801]Sorry, but what do you mean with endfloat on the the cv?
/QUOTE]

See PT's answer.

How did you set the bearings?

What are you using for a drive flange? Are you confident it is running true to the running center of the hub? How close fitting are the drive flange splines to the CV splines?

When you look at the drive flange, beneath the snap-ring, there are a coupla shims that set the amount of free play between the CV joint and the drive flange. If you did not have sufficient end-float, you may have had binding in more than one dimension as things began to heat up, contributing to, or exacerbating the binding and eventual seizing you experienced.


Good catch Red

[QUOTE=FerRi;6902801]Sorry, but what do you mean with endfloat on the the cv?
/QUOTE]

See PT's answer.

How did you set the bearings?

What are you using for a drive flange? Are you confident it is running true to the running center of the hub? How close fitting are the drive flange splines to the CV splines?

I had custom drive flanges made to suit the longfields. I didn´t use any shims because the snap ring was very close to the drive flange. However I do admit it could have about 1 mm endfloat. The longfields were very tight in the splines of the drive flanges, no play whatsoever.

I will check if the drive flanges are preciselly centered to the hub, it could explain a lot if they weren´t. The truth is I had them done in a very appraised local workshop and didn´t check this before installing them with the longfields. Will let you know later....

I set the wheel bearings by feel.

So if you did not check the end float....how did they decide of the width of the drive flanges??? It seems like a lot of custom work without measuring the few important bits.

So if you did not check the end float....how did they decide of the width of the drive flanges??? It seems like a lot of custom work without measuring the few important bits.

I didn´t said the endfloat wasn´t measured. If by endfloat you mean the amount of play that the cv has inside of the hub (in and out), I tell you it could be about 1 mm. I should have used 1 mm shims to avoid this, that is true, but was really this the problem?
All the measurements were carefully made. However you have to have some margin, and that 1 mm was that margin. If 1 mm of endfloat would be the cause of this kind of troubles, there wouldn´t be any LandRovers still running.

But if you really think that we should have been more precise than this, I can tell you that when the drive flanges were made, both drive flanges in the spline area fitted perfectly in 3 longfields. The 4th longfield didn´t fit.
So I believe everybody has margins when they make something.

I think what red90rover is getting at is if the pivot point of the CV is lined up with the pivot point of the swivel ball.

End float is part of that equation when all of the parts are designed together. The bronze bushing/thrust washer in the stub axle should position the pivot points in line and the drive flange keeps its up against the bushing. If your bushing positioned the CV too far in, or out, having the proper end float will only keep it in the wrong place.


-Jeff

1 mm I'm sure is fine....but as you don't seem to know what it is you've never read a workshop manual and one starts to wonder what important things you have missed..

Were the bearings properly set? If they were loose it would allow the hub to move around.

Really tight splines could be bad as well. There should be a little freedom at the splines to allow for misalignments.

I'm just trying to help you find the problem. Obviously something has been done wrong....

As just stated, maybe the CV bush located the CV in the wrong place.

1 mm I'm sure is fine....but as you don't seem to know what it is you've never read a workshop manual and one starts to wonder what important things you have missed..

Were the bearings properly set? If they were loose it would allow the hub to move around.

Really tight splines could be bad as well. There should be a little freedom at the splines to allow for misalignments.

I'm just trying to help you find the problem. Obviously something has been done wrong....

As just stated, maybe the CV bush located the CV in the wrong place.

The reason I didn´t know what endfloat means is because my mother language isn´t english. I live in Portugal, and the techinal expressions usually aren´t direct translations, I am sorry.

However I do know that bearing pre-load is very important but I don´t seriously believe I have failled here, because I have done this in several rovers many times with no problems till now.

I appreciate very much your help on finding the problem, and you may well be right with the centering of the drive flanges with the hub. As I said, I didn´t check it personally before I installed them, but will do it and let you know...

Once again, thank you

Mail Me ... We'll work it out for you.

I didn't want to get into this too deeply given the language differences (I suppose we could make it worse and use Esperanto :flipoff2:).

The thickness of the drive flange is critical as the imaginary centerline of the CV joint assembly must be in accord with the imaginary centerline of the swivel. Perhaps imaginary is not right and theoretical would be a better way to put this. If these dimensions are not in agreement in all three dimensions, exactly what you described could and most likely would happen as binding would occur, but this binding would not necessarily be symmetrical given the design of CV joints in general. The assymmetric binding could in fact make matters worse by introducing some harmonic activity that would result in more friction and greater heat generation.

I would think it might be better to have more play than less as I imagine the CV joint has some degree of self-centering ability under real world dynamic conditions-ie-it will float around to where it wants/needs to be if it is free to do so.

I don't think one could find this sort of information in the FSM. It might tell you what the endfloat should be, but it isn't going to tell you why, nor what will happen if you don't understand it when making major custom modifications.

Pendy-please feel free to make corrections as I cannot refer to the FSM to argue the point :flipoff2:

Mail Me ... We'll work it out for you.

Will email you. Thank you.

I didn't want to get into this too deeply given the language differences (I suppose we could make it worse and use Esperanto :flipoff2:).

The thickness of the drive flange is critical as the imaginary centerline of the CV joint assembly must be in accord with the imaginary centerline of the swivel. Perhaps imaginary is not right and theoretical would be a better way to put this. If these dimensions are not in agreement in all three dimensions, exactly what you described could and most likely would happen as binding would occur, but this binding would not necessarily be symmetrical given the design of CV joints in general. The assymmetric binding could in fact make matters worse by introducing some harmonic activity that would result in more friction and greater heat generation.

I would think it might be better to have more play than less as I imagine the CV joint has some degree of self-centering ability under real world dynamic conditions-ie-it will float around to where it wants/needs to be if it is free to do so.

I don't think one could find this sort of information in the FSM. It might tell you what the endfloat should be, but it isn't going to tell you why, nor what will happen if you don't understand it when making major custom modifications.

Pendy-please feel free to make corrections as I cannot refer to the FSM to argue the point :flipoff2:

I aprecciate your explanation, but you really don´t need to argue the point, as I understand the implications of a bronze bush or drive flange not being centered with the swivel ball centerline. I already said it may well be uncentered drive flanges, and if this turns out to be the problem, it is a production error, not a design error. I already made these "major custom modifications" before, I had bronze bushes fitted to spindles and drive flanges made (for the AEU2522 conversion) and all went well.

However, it´s quite nice reading some more technical explanations of what may really be happening.

However, it´s quite nice reading some more technical explanations of what may really be happening.

Thanx. I wasn't certain of your level of understanding of all that is involved.

PT

abriged please. Bandwidth required for flaming

Have made plans for the new set up of the hubs, to fit the 30 spline longfields. I´ve decided I don´t want to machine down the longs, mainly because off warranty issues, so will be doing new custom spindles. Haven´t yet been able to check if drive flanges are centered, because the truck is not near me at the moment, but will check this as soon as possible and will make new ones if they´r defective.

I already made custom spindles for my rear Salisbury axle, to fit 35 spline axles, had to use bigger bearings and machine the hub to accept the new bearings. I am thinking on doing exactly the same in the front hubs, so I can have all the clearence I need and use same padron all around the truck.

I am thinking on 40 mm internal diameter with toyota bush pressed in (the toyota bush has aprox. 40 mm outside diameter), and 4140 alloy steel, same as rear spindles. What are your thoughts on this?

Have made plans for the new set up of the hubs, to fit the 30 spline longfields. I´ve decided I don´t want to machine down the longs, mainly because off warranty issues, so will be doing new custom spindles. Haven´t yet been able to check if drive flanges are centered, because the truck is not near me at the moment, but will check this as soon as possible and will make new ones if they´r defective.

I already made custom spindles for my rear Salisbury axle, to fit 35 spline axles, had to use bigger bearings and machine the hub to accept the new bearings. I am thinking on doing exactly the same in the front hubs, so I can have all the clearence I need and use same padron all around the truck.

I am thinking on 40 mm internal diameter with toyota bush pressed in (the toyota bush has aprox. 40 mm outside diameter), and 4140 alloy steel, same as rear spindles. What are your thoughts on this?

So, did everything go ok??

abriged please. Bandwidth required for flaming

thanks for the sig line:smokin:

So, did everything go ok??\

Finally got the chance to finish this. Here are the pics:

Ruined Longfield:
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9486/img0014rd9.jpg

The other one didn´t get this bad, so I manage to machine it down. Nevertheless, it got a little crank, so I´ll use it as a spare one.
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4610/image089df8.jpg

New spindle:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1749/image085rm5.jpg

New spindle with toyota bush pressed in:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7927/image084ss4.jpg

Internal diameter 40.00 mm, don´t believe I will have clearence problems now. Had to use bigger bearings and machine a little bit of the hubs in order to have a spindle of this size:
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3959/image086ub9.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/105/image090dw3.jpg
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1701/image092wl0.jpg

New spindle, Longfield and drive flange:
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8413/image101ur3.jpg

Small low quality video of longfield in spindle:
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc160/_FerRi_/?action=view&current=VIDEO_008.flv

Would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks

What was determined to be the cause of the failure? Without knowing for sure, it will be a guess, as im sure it looked good last time as well.

-Jeff

What was determined to be the cause of the failure? Without knowing for sure, it will be a guess, as im sure it looked good last time as well.

-Jeff

Well, I determined as the cause of failure that the longfields in order to be used with standard rover spindles must be machined down to have propper clearence. I couldn´t find no other problem that could justife what happened, but I am still open to other suggestions.

The truck has rolled for about an hour and everything seems to be working pretty well.

Why turn the CV when their is meat left on the spindle to bore it out. We have bored rover spindles quite a bit with no issues.

Why turn the CV when their is meat left on the spindle to bore it out. We have bored rover spindles quite a bit with no issues.

KC, I think he turned the ones that had seized in the undersized spindle (stub axle) to recover an otherwise unusable CV.

I almost called you last week, I guess I should have, you would have been pleased at my predicament, Pendy (and Afi too) was.:flipoff2:

PT

Why turn the CV when their is meat left on the spindle to bore it out. We have bored rover spindles quite a bit with no issues.

I didn´t want to bore rover spindles more than I did before, and it turned out to be not enough. First I still would have to machine down brand new CVs(wich I do not want to do) to get enough clearence and then I would loose strength (I already broke one unbored rover spindle before).

The machined longfield in the pic had surface damage due to being welded at the bored rover spindle (due to lack of clearence in my opinion). This way I could use it as a spare. The other one was impossible to recover. I am using brand new standard 30 spline longfields with these new spindles.

Those are pretty Spindles!

The biggest thing with the boring of the spindles is that to retain strength I like to bore them only big enough for the 30 spline to fit through, then turn the stub shaft of the CV down from full diameter to the pitch diameter, won't hurt the strength of the CV and maintains the most strength in the Spindle.

I have bored Rover spindles to the point that the lock washer flat was distorted. I had to build up the spindle at the flat and modifiy the lock washers. Those spindles held up just fine in a fully loaded D-90

I have bored Rover spindles to the point that the lock washer flat was distorted. I had to build up the spindle at the flat and modifiy the lock washers. Those spindles held up just fine in a fully loaded D-90

I do believe that can be done, but having broken a unbored rover spindle before, that option scares me for the use of this truck. Nevertheless, these custom spindles, even if not so cost effective, are by far stronger, safer and I get all 4 wheels in the same padron as I also have custom rear spindles in the rear for 35 spline shafts (same lock washers, same bearings).

Well...the Defender has been tested. It competed in "Rainforest Portugal", a 5 day competition with competitors from Portugal, Spain, France and UK) and had no breakage on the axles (I believe this was the first time since this truck competes). Will take everything out soon to check for any problems. However it broke 4 driveshafts :mad3: Overall it finished 3rd place, wich is pretty good.

It is a D-90 TruckCab, tuned Td5 (430Nm torque), Rear 35 splined Salisbury, front 30 splined Salisbury, Longfields, custom made halfshafts, spindles and drive flanges, 38.5X15 Boggers.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2809/pyetd877483402zf1.jpg

However it broke 4 driveshafts

congratulations...you found the next weakest link... :D don't bother with spicer 1310's as a fix... they aren't up to the task either.... you would have broken 1310's with just 27 spline longs... and wouldn't have had to go through all the agony.