I am looking for a way to make some money and i figured i could make bumpers and cages ect... If i started to make bumpers and sliders and cages who would be interested in buying them? I am not out to make a fortune just enough to buy my dream car (project) i would also do custom work, and make products for just about any vehicle. price wise i am thinking price of tube + %150 for bending and welding. Example 100 bucks of tube for something and i would sell the product for somthing like $250. i would also make spring hangers, and various other things.
Thanks

post pics of your work and some people may be interested.


Drew

yup, I wanna see

no pics as of right now, but as soon as i have the ability i will post them, i am just looking to see how many people think thay might be interested before i spend the money on a hydrolic bender
Thanks

u won't know unless u try

People who need them and like your work!!!:rasta:

If you buy a bender, then make me a roll cage, I'll put it in my truck and run it for you for a "test truck" I'll even put a sticker on my window...or somthing.:flipoff2: And if I'm not too embarrassed to be running your work...you can make me bumpers too:flipoff2: and sliders;)

put me down for:
GOTTA SEE SOEM OF YOUR WORK BEFORE I GIVE YOU MONEY

I say if you are talented, go for it. People will buy it, if it is good.

well i guess i'll fork out the cash for the hydrolic bender.

What kind of bender do you have?I'm willing to be your guinea pig for a discount and will post lost pics. ;)

will my bumper have product liability insurance behind it ? will the company building it have business insurance ? or when i run in to the back of somebody will i be left on my own to fight the legal battles?

will my bumper have product liability insurance behind it ? will the company building it have business insurance ? or

I hope you are kidding. Liability insurance for your bumper???Liability insurance follows the automoblie, not the bumper.

products liability???? What kind of liabilty can fall back on a bumper, it anit like you are selling medicine, or food ( something that liability can actually fall back on)

I think you need to be asking: does the bumper come with any kinda of waranty.....not insurance:flipoff2:

Originally posted by TN85YOTA
I think you need to be asking: does the bumper come with any kinda of waranty.....not insurance:flipoff2:


ne he's got a good point, unfortunatly for all teh backyard fab guy's...

aftermarket product's are blamed for damage in accident's all the time...

DSI and Camo,

Do you know of anyone this has happened to? I tend to believe what you are saying but it seems a bit far fetched that you could be successful in suing someone because you hit them and THEIR bumper did damage to you or your car.

BTW, I'm looking for someone to build a bumper for me in the Santa Rosa,CA area.

John

Originally posted by camo
will my bumper have product liability insurance behind it ? will the company building it have business insurance ? or when i run in to the back of somebody will i be left on my own to fight the legal battles?

Camos points have some merit but I am curious as to how many of our "BIG" suppliers actually have "product liabilty" (on every product)since the term is broad , and the amount of different products for one manufacturer is numerous.
I have been qouted very large amounts of cash for "PL" , and it is impossible to make any items without massive quantities sold to be able to make profits.
I am not in the business of making "mass products" but rather a general "job shop" which consists of basically doing code work on buildings, farm equipment, custom one off consumer goods etc. Product liability could be applied to me , and all others in the business-----but what is common for small job shops is a general liability which basically covers mishaps in & around your property. You have no protection if a product fails. In some particular instances I will take a policy for whatever becuase the job demands it & that is fine becuase it will be taken into the bid , and therefore does not kill me cash wise.
Besides "insurance" is only good for the amount that you are insured for.
Example-----I have $1,000,000 general liabilty now while out on a mobile job working on a piece of logging machinery I start a forest fire:eek: which when finally contained costs $3,400,000 to surpress well great I'm cover for a mil but I still owe $2,400,000 F%#$. (this did not happen to me-thank god)
The way to limit ANY liabilty would be to incorporate or start a L.L.C. this would leave your business open to be destroyed but would protect your familys' assets.
BUT BUT BUT..............NOTHING will protect your from criminal liability ..............meaning if you make a cage, and you have no qualifications (ie not an M.E./W.E. etc etc.) , and people die/or injured as a result of your cage NOT keeping them from being harmed YOU WILL GO TO PRISON!!!!!!!!!!! It has happened before, and in the future will happen again.
Anyways I love what I do , and it blows me away all the time to think that I created my own job, and to think of some of the BIG companies I have been paid by to work for but I dont think I like the business side of it which unltimately will make me go back , and work for somebody. Being sued scares the shit out of me- I never cut corners EVER becuase if someone got hurt not only would I be responsible I would feel horrible.
If you have the balls to go forward I say go for it, and be prepared to learn like never before -about everything -IRS BOE insurance, advertising, accounting, welding, welding,welding..etc etc. Good luck
Weldpro---

Originally posted by Schly
DSI and Camo,

Do you know of anyone this has happened to? I tend to believe what you are saying but it seems a bit far fetched that you could be successful in suing someone because you hit them and THEIR bumper did damage to you or your car.

BTW, I'm looking for someone to build a bumper for me in the Santa Rosa,CA area.

John

The big lawsuit I'm waitng for is front bumpers on new trucks with airbags( not deploying)----I bet you many have settled out of court already!!!
weldpro

Weldpro - I remember when Essentially Off Road was starting up several years back - they looked into product liability insurance and quickly realized 2 things:

1. It is REALLY expensive
2. Very few shops carry it :p


I am willing to bet that there are very few companies who are making products that carry product liability insurance....

Weldpro has a point on the roll cage issue. If you do build a roll cage and you advertise that it will withstand XX amount of pounds... that vehicle gets in an accident and someone is injured becuase your rollcage did not " hold up', you may be found liable for soem of the damages. I am not positive you will be held for criminal charges, but more on the lines of 'tort' negligence.

Criminal and Tort are two different baskets. if you shoot someone, that is criminal law, if you sell a bad product, that is tort law.

If you are only going to make bumpers and rock sliders, I do not see an issue with this at all. I do not see an insurance compnay coming back to subrogate for damages caused by a bumper. To protect your self, I would just have people sign a waiver ( waiving you from any liability connected to your product)

About the only way to get around a waiver is if you do something : grousely negligent", but there again, your only making bumpers, not airbags...

aftermarket product's are blamed for damage in accident's all the time...

Well, It depends on the product. If it is a bumper, the bumper did not cause the accident, the vehicle did.

But if it were some aftermarket brakes, then they might come back and try to blame the aftermarket brakes for not working properly thus causing an accident to happen.

Originally posted by TN85YOTA


Well, It depends on the product. If it is a bumper, the bumper did not cause the accident, the vehicle did.

But if it were some aftermarket brakes, then they might come back and try to blame the aftermarket brakes for not working properly thus causing an accident to happen.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT OR WHO CUASED THE ACCIDENT!

You can be hualed into court for ANYTHING!!! The real question is can you afford to sport a lawyer (no small claims here) for six months costing you untold amounts of $$$$ just to prove you had no liabilty in "said" accident? Since we are talking about "proving" you had better have some cash for your own "expert witnesses".

I used to be a Probation Officer , and was around the courts alot , and trust me I would look at the Docs' for the day(see why I had to wait) , and whoa I saw some strange suits. People (some) have absolutely no idea what personal responsibilty is!
weldpro

Originally posted by TN85YOTA

products liability???? What kind of liabilty can fall back on a bumper, it anit like you are selling medicine, or food ( something that liability can actually fall back on)



This kind of liabilty-
Your sitting in traffic , and somebody rear ends "customer" but since the bumper was not "of the type that absorbed impact"(ie like factory) said customer sustained major injurys!!!!!!!! We're taking the manufacturer to court.
Front bumper- Same but you hit a deer , and not only did the bumper not absorb impact it also made the air bag switch not funtion therefore plantiff suffered injurys that would have "most likely NOT occured" if a energy absorbing bumper was in place.

Thats how you would end up in court--the rest is being able to afford the battle , and the potential liabilty if you lost, and a potential criminal negligence (by the state) also which would not be likely unless death or serious injury(s) resulted.
weldpro


OBTW- yes the bumper would not be blamed for the accident but rather the extent of the damage as a result of.

One way around the lawsuit part is to claim that your products are for show only and are not intended for vehicles that are to be driven on roads or highways.

I am in the process of getting an LLC started up (well, I've looked into it at least:rolleyes:)..but only because I can them use the tax laws to my advantange..I'm not quitting my real job or anything...

Back to Schooner...don't ask who would buy your stuff..just start making your own stuff and when people find out that you can fab stuff, they will come looking for you. I get inquiries all the time and I sell just enough stuff to finance my 4 wheeling habit.

Weldpro:

I am in TN and I know that laws are different in every state. But if you are driving your own vehicle and you hit a deer, your medpay coverage would come to play. med pay coverage is a ' no fault ' coverage.

A driver can not be held liable for there own accident.

Now, I guess the insurance company could go back and subrogate back to the manufacturer of the bumper stating the bumper caused more damage than if the bumper was factory. But, the vehicle owner had the right to choose to put on that bumper, therefore that person took that assumption of risk,thus possibly waiving any rights of subrogation. I do not see an insurance compnay winning that one.


I do agree with you, people are sue happy these days, and they will sue you for anything.

I believe we dug into this topic a lot deeper than it was inteded for.


:beer: :beer:

This is why most shops that make cages and bumpers and everything else have disclaimers stating that their products are "intended for off-highway racing use" gets them off the hook.

This is also why many outfits call their cages "sport cages" and don't make any claims of actual protection.

Originally posted by dangerber
This is why most shops that make cages and bumpers and everything else have disclaimers stating that their products are "intended for off-highway racing use" gets them off the hook.

This is also why many outfits call their cages "sport cages" and don't make any claims of actual protection.


This is by no means a guarantee of anything! If someone wants to take you to court they can & will , and even if you can win you will still foot the bill for you costs to fight the plantiff.
weldpro

If only everything was as simple as a disclaimer!

I am also starting a new business. I dont manufacture anything but its a dog eat dog world and its real easy to get ripped off. This isnt much of an issue if you only providing a cash for service business.

I would think a disclaimer with BIG LETTERS about the part of this is for offroad use only and has no implied protection benifits, use at your own risk bla bla bla. I dont know if you own your own home/married/kids whatever.

Myself being single with no money or a house to worry about losing I would do it in a second. Starting your own business if you want to be professional about it, is a major pain, but at the same time its exciting. Dont think for a second its less work than working for someone else, you'll have plenty of worries to make up for that. My suggestion is buy the bender, do a couple of projects to pay for it, now your back in the clear. Everything you make after that is your money to invest in better tools/advertising. Eventualy if all works out you'll have enough business to quit your daily job.

I would interested in someone who could build a Bumper that was close in shape and design to a Bull Bar. Doesnt have to be pretty, but I like the way it hugs the body and hides the winch.

I wouldn't worry about product liability too much, if you are driving around in the kinds of trucks( meaning mods or totally custom) we have. Have you ever had a friend or someone you knew who hit and killed someone while driving a modified truck, lets just say it ain't pretty. Especially when the insurance co. thinks you are driving a stock truck, when the lawsuits start popping up and they see that you had a big a$$ steel bumper and a winch that was about head height for a normal passenger car. Even if the accident was not your fault you could still get F#%ked.

If you made a wrap a round tube bumper for the rear of a '89-'95 truck I would be interested. :smokin:

just thought i would through out some food for thought. basicaly if you get in a accident and your insurance company finds out you have a aftermarket bumper then they will deny your claim and then the other guy is going to go after the manufacture of the bumber as well as the driver. just shit to think about.

wrap around rear bumpe= :cool:
like i said i will do custom work for very little extra.
I learned alot from this post. I guess i need to make every one sign a waiver saying that these products are for off-road use only, and I can not be held responsable :D

How much for a rear bumper with a swing out for a spare on it? I would buy one if the price isn't to extrem.;)
I'll even throw in beer:beer:

i wouldn't buy one.... :flipoff2:

OK i am going to get the bender soon so i will let everyone know when i can start building stuff.:smokin:

An easy way to cover your ass is to put the waiver/disclaimer crap on an invoice, filled out with each order. Every customer signs on the line at purchase time. You give them a copy and keep one with your records.
Now you have invoices to track taxes with, previous customer records for future sales calls, and a complete record of every signle person who bought your stuff saying "I take responsibility for the installation and safe use of this product".
You should also consider setting up an LLC or corporation as mentioned earlier in this thread. I have a sole proprietorship, but I'm strictly retail&installation, not manufacturing. My liability is limited to warranty replacement and "product failure or injury as a result of improper or defective installation".
Get insurance!! It will definitely save your ass one day from the moron who thinks your bumpers magically turned his old pickup into an M-1 Abrams tank, then drove it at 40mph into a boulder.....now he's paralyzed. Fuck him, he's obviously a shithead. A civil court might not agree. You could be buying his retarded ass a house, if not more.
I wish you luck with your business idea. Just balance your excitement with caution.

Dave
CT Mobile Media

You want to buy mine:flipoff2:

Anyways good luck!
weldpro

Originally posted by weldpro
You want to buy mine:flipoff2:

Anyways good luck!
weldpro

man, i gotta convert over to hydro... that thing looks great!

do you ever have a problem with how low it is?

Originally posted by poppycock


man, i gotta convert over to hydro... that thing looks great!

do you ever have a problem with how low it is?

I am 5'11" so you can see it's not low (it sure looks like it though in the pic above!). I would say that it is a very ideal height , and yes I belive hydro rules! (especially for business-speed is essential)
weldpro

how much ya want for it:confused:

Sorry man I was just joking- I would sell my soul before i would sell any tool! (unless it was getting replaced)
I can tell you that it cost me $2550 (December 2001)which would be for JD2 model 4 with hydro hose, enerpac turbo pump, swiss Nike 10ton 14in stroke Hyd ram, 2" 180 deg die set, 1.5" 180 deg die set, 1" 180 die set, JD2 notcher, shipping for all , and a few bucks for materials & paint to make the cart.
weldpro

oh well i didn't want that garbage anyway:flipoff2:

Originally posted by daveugm
An easy way to cover your ass is to put the waiver/disclaimer crap on an invoice,
Dave
CT Mobile Media

in california a wavier does not mean anything in court. you can not sign away rights.

Since being sued already scares me , and this thread has brought up vivid nightmares of potential things that can go wrong I think rather than wait to be sued I'm going sue somebody first, and I pick Camo helping me have these "bad dreams" , and I also spilled hot coffee in my lap after reading "you can't sign away your rights in Ca." Your gonna get it for that one too.



:flipoff2:
weldpro

LOL:bounce2: :rasta: ;)

Here is the deal. You go on the net and read about the Federal and California Product Liability laws. Then you get some of the disclaimers and waivers and take them to a product liability lawyer that you trust and pay $100+ to review and legalese the document. Then you put him on retainer or join a legal network. Everything you sell you make the buyer sign the waiver/disclaimer.

In the US a contract/disclaimer/waiver really means nothing to a good lawyer and the right lawsuit. I go rock climbing at this indoor place down the street. I sign a waiver that holds them, their facility, the equipment and their employees to non-fault. While climbing their caribeener breaks, lets go of the rope and I plummet and break ten bones, do you think I can't, or won't, sue them and the manufacturer? You bet I will, and win.

Welcome to the world of owning and running a business. Also talk to whomever you have an auto or homeowner policy with because a lot of them sell business insurance. I have $1M for about $75 a month.

The big lawsuit I'm waitng for is front bumpers on new trucks with airbags( not deploying)----I bet you many have settled out of court already!!!

If they had some sense, they would sell a kit that adjust the accelerometers to deploy the airbags at a lower g-force....seeing as the front will not crumple. Oh well.

Wow, there's alot of tort lawyers on this board:rolleyes:



How much for a rear bumper with a swing out for a spare on it? I would buy one if the price isn't to extrem.

Ditto, I'd buy a cheap spare tire swing out bumper. You can put any kind of disclaimer stickers on it and I'll sign whatever you want. It'll be cool anyways. I live in Texas, a lot less liberal than Cali:flipoff2: