Yep, I knew it was going to happen sooner or later with the Ram assist. I don't know why but most my major breaks always seem to happen close to home. But anyway it broke mainly due to driver error ( doing stupid sh!t ) I was climbing a concrete wall with the right front tire and then turned into it , to try and get completly vertical. I had all of the front ends weight on those four studs and then turned even more into it and SNAP down she went. I knew exactly what it was when it happened. I nursed the rig 100 yards to the main road and called the tow truck. I had AAA and I was only two miles from my house and didn't feel like doing trail repairs that close to home. So I tore it apart and it wiped out the top bearing sheared the studs off and tore the Super Birfs outer shell up pretty good from driving on it.


Does anyone know if GRADE 8 is stonger than stock studs ????

The studs do nothing but clamp the arm - If they are seeing sheering forces, you ave already lost the majority of the strength and are about to break anyway.

I would be willing to bet the nuts were not on there tight.



Whose arms were they? Dod they re-use the stock studs and cone washers?

Nuts were tight, just checked em recently. But I did come back from Fordyce a couple weeks ago and they were loose. The arms were built by KDS Mfg. in Rocklin it's BEEFY using 3/4 ton chevy joints and they do retain the stocks studs and conewashers. When tightened down the nut sits level with the stud. So I'm thinking about longer studs to get a some more threads showing is grade 8 stronger ?

Originally posted by Chopperman
is grade 8 stronger ?

I think you miss my point.... still....

The strength of the bolts or studs is pretty much irrelevant. They are just there to provide clamping force to the mating surfaces of the steering arm and knuckle top.

You could make the bolts longer, stronger or bigger - and it is all irrelevant unless you can come up with some way to clamp those two surfaces tighter together.

Besides that - bolts are actually worse, since you lose the cone washer feature - which is one of the ways the steering arms are able to be kept so tight against the knuckle (like the coned surface of lug nuts keeping a wheel on).

But to be simple about it - NO.... switching to grade 8 bolts is NOT the answer... :)

hey-

SAE grade 8 is stronger, (150,000 psi) but is brittle like any hard heat treated steel-

SAE grade 5 is strong, (120,000 psi) but retains some "elasticity"-
____________________________________

metric fastener use a different system of grading-

a metric G8 (113,800 psi) is the equivalent of a SAE grade 5-

the G10 (142,000 psi) is the equivalent of a SAE grade 8-

and the G12 (172,000 psi) is the equivalent of a N.A.S. 623 grade-


later-

I've never had a steering arm loosen, stock or various forms of crossover steering. I wonder if the steering arm in this case is not seating firmly to the knuckle and that slight mismatch is causing the nuts to loosen.

So if I need more clamping force how about using longer studs, the shim, then the arm, conewashers, flat washers, then adding a flat plate that whould help distribute the clamping force over the entire arm, then lock washers and then the nuts ?? Aaaaannnnndddd THEN....

Originally posted by crawler#976
hey-

SAE grade 8 is stronger, (150,000 psi) but is brittle like any hard heat treated steel-

SAE grade 5 is strong, (120,000 psi) but retains some "elasticity"-
____________________________________

metric fastener use a different system of grading-

a metric G8 (113,800 psi) is the equivalent of a SAE grade 5-

the G10 (142,000 psi) is the equivalent of a SAE grade 8-

and the G12 (172,000 psi) is the equivalent of a N.A.S. 623 grade-


later-

Just for sh!ts and giggles does anyone know what stock studs are rated at and yes I understand the clamping therory now !!!

Ya might be able to figure it out based on the stock "torque" recommendation in the FSM

In my FSM in the back there is a list of diamater and torque specs related to grade of fastener.

Hey, we carry the perfect bolt upgrade for your knuckles!

Featuring tungsten carbide and cobalt tantalum binders, our upgrade bolts are zirconium based high strength low alloy (HSLA) with potassium double fluorides and niobium based metallurgical tantalum composites. The nuts are of a high purity superalloy iron manganese tantalite with a special adhesive layer of pentoxide (from the mineral cassiterite) and are electrically smelted through a chemical extraction know as Thaisarco smelter Phuket.
We then take stock Toyota cone spacers and put them through a 12-stage acid solution mixed thoroughly with MIBK (methyl-iso-butyl ketone) which dissolves the tantalum and niobium compounds into the ketone while leaving impurities in the aqueous solution. Then the left over organic residue (ketone solution) is separated from the aqueous layer by liquid-liquid separation.
We then throw all of the bolts, nuts, and cones into our barbecue where the tungsten carbides are compacted with an electron beam furnace.
The end result is a relatively soft and elastic 950,000 psi knuckle bolt set that will end all of our problems!

Cost: 4 U.S. Stealth Bombers and 1 4A-GZE (Supercharged MR2 Engine).

Now taking orders daily!

>> SIKE! :D :D <<

Regards,
BigMike

Daummm and I was going to be a smart-ass and sugest welding the arm down :D

mike you a smart ass???? i want i set for my gocart


i know where a 4age super charged moter is (no joke) and it will cost me about 1k with every thing, and the tranny is $650 just thought i would let you know




drm the surface contact has little to do with the arm breaking, the studs are the ones that pysically hold the arms on to the nuckles. but that is like some one said that the force that is between the drive flanges is what holds it together, if that is true than way does it need the bolts??? way not use vise grips???? if the surfaces mating together are what keeps it from spinning??? its the pysical object that keeps it form moving, the cone washers keep it center as well


Cliff

Cliff,

I will have to side with DRM.

The actual psi loaded onto a surface effects the amount of friction applied to that surface, agree? So, in essence, the bolts are not doing anything except for applying the force which sets a high surface level of friction. In order to break the studs, you must first overcome the friction surface forces before and side load is to be applied to the bolts themselves. So if you left your drive line loose and did some burnout with your Mad Turbo 22RTE, you would shurely shear all four bolts apart. But since you torque them down a high level of friction is created between the two metals. That force must first be overcome before the bolts will be. So in reality, no one could make bolts (like in my cool last post!) that would be so strong as to hold on to high side loads. That's why you want to make sure your flanges are surfaced to a true flat surface (ie. belt sander) so that the maximum surface area can be used to appliy the friction to.

DRM: Hats off'

Regards,
bigMike

rj, i just got an 83 front axle complete, leeme know what you need for parts so we can both get back up and running:smokin:

Originally posted by Chopperman


Just for sh!ts and giggles does anyone know what stock studs are rated at and yes I understand the clamping therory now !!!

the studs or nuts should be marked according to grade-

SAE grade 8 has six "dashes" on the nut, stud or bolt-
grade 5 has three

Metric 8G should have an "8G" on it- 5G with "5G", etc. etc.

later-

Mike you beat us to it, we were going to come out with the very same product!

Originally posted by Booger Weldz
rj, i just got an 83 front axle complete, leeme know what you need for parts so we can both get back up and running:smokin:

Whatcha got planned for that axel....?????

big mike,i thought you were talking about a new super vitamine:D

Originally posted by BigMike
DRM: Hats off'

Regards,
bigMike


Awwww.... :clown: occasionally I get one or two right ;)

This is what I saw a guy do for a D44 highsteer arm he made...it may apply to a toy high steer arm if you wanted to figure out a way to do it.

The guy had his steering arm drilled in 4 spots on the flat surface which sits on the knuckle (remove the arm, flip it over and drill it), he them had corresponding holes drilled in the knuckle, then put in hardened pins. He then had 4 hardened pins and 3 cone washered studs holding his arm to the knuckle.

(This is sort of the approach used on aisin hubs on a toyota pickup)

Originally posted by Priest


Whatcha got planned for that axel....?????

i need the hubs, rotor carriers and inner alxes for spares:D

Try some high tensile strength epoxy in that joint between arm and knuckle. I've been experimenting with this stuf for a few years with good results.

Brian

Originally posted by Bjowett
Try some high tensile strength epoxy
You mean this stuff? (http://liquidnails.com/) :rasta:

Originally posted by Shane Krause

You mean this stuff? (http://liquidnails.com/) :rasta:

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :eek::eek::eek:


Blast from the past! :laughing:

Likkid niels, just what you need for that sticking turdmostat. :D

Originally posted by Shane Krause

You mean this stuff? (http://liquidnails.com/) :rasta:

That's for the woodgrain panels I placed on the sides.:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Brian

mike your dad told me that the force (torshoinal load) that is on the drive lines is more than the clamping force can with stand (no crawler involved) so they (toyota) made the bolts larger on the 84 and up trucks because the bolts carring are most of the load??? but in one respect DRM is right ???? the turbo out put flange is larger in diameter=more clamping area??????:confused:


i think that DRM is right in the clamping aspect but the studs didn't failed because the arm lower surface area let go, it simply snaped the studs=stronger studs= less likely to fail.:eek: the studs were to be stronger you could clap them down tighter and it would be stronger right?????



Cliff

Originally posted by e cliff
it simply snaped the studs=stronger studs= less likely to fail.:eek:

Nope.

I don't care if the studs are twice as strong. To prove my point, I see Dana 60 high sgteering arms fail the bolts too.

The point still is that once you have overcome the frictional force of the two surfaces, bigger bolts are gonna fail too.


Try this analogy....

You can use stock U bolts on a front axle, or you can use much larger 5/8" U bolts on a front axle. But once the clamping force is such that either are loose - a hard corner is gonna break either one...

So, what is the consensus for the guy? What should he replace broken studs with? Stock studs or grade 8 bolts?

(Can you tell Im interested.)

Im making my high steer arms out of 1.125 Flat bar this next weekend and I am plannin on just using some grade 8 bolts with no cone washers. I have seen some D60s hold up fine with bolts on some more intense (read: full hydro + 39's) rigs than mine and by your deductions, the fact that the 4 bolts on a D60 are bigger will not make them hold up any better to shearing force than what I will use on my Toy axles, right? Meaning effectivly my bolts will hold up just as well as a D60 under the same conditions.

Wouldnt the length of the steering arm be a factor to as far as leverage? If so, wouldnt the shortest arm be the best arm?

I know there is not a lot of room on the top of that knuckle, but it'd be nice to have a couple grooves run into it, and then corresponding raised surfaces in the steering arm that would set in them. Torque the nuts to factory specs, and then the shearing resistance would be shared by the studs, cone washers, bolts, and machined grooves.

Originally posted by TyTy
Im making my high steer arms out of 1.125 Flat bar this next weekend and I am plannin on just using some grade 8 bolts with no cone washers. I have seen some D60s hold up fine with bolts on some more intense (read: full hydro + 39's) rigs than mine and by your deductions, the fact that the 4 bolts on a D60 are bigger will not make them hold up any better to shearing force than what I will use on my Toy axles, right? Meaning effectivly my bolts will hold up just as well as a D60 under the same conditions.


No.


Comparing your arms to the D60 ones do not take into account the increased surface area of the D60 knuckle to arm mating surface.

Yes, steering arm length, and tire size both have an effect on leverage on the arm - so that matters too.

I find it hard to believe that the D60's you mention are "just fine" with bolts and not cone washers... From my experience - it is not a matter of "if" it will fail - it is a matter of "when".

DRM I see you post allot on this thread, but I have not seen you give this guy a suggestion on what to do..............I'm sure we would all like to hear uh...your....[rant] derrrrr....thoughts:rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta:

Originally posted by DRM
I find it hard to believe that the D60's you mention are "just fine" with bolts and not cone washers... From my experience - it is not a matter of "if" it will fail - it is a matter of "when".

How many bolted arms have you seen fail??

Originally posted by SeaBass44
DRM I see you post allot on this thread, but I have not seen you give this guy a suggestion on what to do..............I'm sure we would all like to hear uh...your....[rant] derrrrr....thoughts:rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta: :rasta:


He already said he had not long before found that the stock nuts were loose and he had to tighten them, I am willing to bet that they came loose again, and that is the only reason the studs failed.

The solution is easy IMHO - get new STOCK studs, and make sure they stay tight.... Simple, eh? ;)

Originally posted by convertiyota


How many bolted arms have you seen fail??

To date, I have seen 5 Dana 60 high steering arms fail - and every one of them was running plain grade 8 bolts - not studs and the proper coned nut or cone washers.

Originally posted by DRM



..............
The solution is easy IMHO - get new STOCK studs, and make sure they stay tight.... Simple, eh? ;)

that's my opinion too....what took you so long to say it:flipoff2: if they are tight...I don't see a problem, I check u-bolts and steering every trip! including the steering BOX! See those fail or loose on the trail near every trip....why people don't check there stuff is beyond me:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Originally posted by SeaBass44

what took you so long to say it:flipoff2:


Seabass - did you miss my SECOND POST to this thread where I said:

But to be simple about it - NO.... switching to grade 8 bolts is NOT the answer...

Originally posted by DRM



Seabass - did you miss my SECOND POST to this thread where I said:



Yup saw that it give out what the answer is NOT:flipoff2:

A friend of mine had the studs actually pull out of his stock toyota "j" arm and knuckle while wheeling once. He was able to get a couple of the studs back in (sort of cross threaded so they had some holding power) then limp out of the woods.

This was with the stock PS and a drop draglink. Sort of weird if you ask me.

How about a double steering arm - that is, one that mounts on the top 4 studs, and another piece that runs down from the high steer arm to the lower 4 mounting studs.

Brian

Originally posted by Tankota
A friend of mine had the studs actually pull out of his stock toyota "j" arm and knuckle while wheeling once. He was able to get a couple of the studs back in (sort of cross threaded so they had some holding power) then limp out of the woods.

This was with the stock PS and a drop draglink. Sort of weird if you ask me.

not weird at all, if they are loose that can and does happen.....

So what yall are saying is that I need to integrate some cone washers into my steering arms...awwwww MAAAAANNNN!

That sucks. Only part that I am worried about is how accurate do you think the taper I need to drill into the holes needs to be? The exact pitch of the washers or just kind of a taper:D?

The taper needs to be a pretty much exact fit to work like it is supposed to...


But here are some things to consider....


-You could take your arm when you are done to a machine shop and have them countersink the taper holes like you need - should not be too expensive.

-You could have a machine shop maybe re-cut the end of a large drill bit to the taper you need, and you make the tapers yourself.

Originally posted by TyTy
So what yall are saying is that I need to integrate some cone washers into my steering arms...awwwww MAAAAANNNN!

That sucks. Only part that I am worried about is how accurate do you think the taper I need to drill into the holes needs to be? The exact pitch of the washers or just kind of a taper:D?

just buy arms, don't skimp on this part, you can make near anything....but it would suck to break the steering.........could be fatel:eek: :eek: :eek:

Thanks for all the input, I'm going to check and re-check the two surfaces and make sure they have good contact and use stock studs. A couple things that I found out after really looking at the parts while it was torn apart.

1st
The washers I used on this HS set-up mix matched and two of them did not seat properly on top of the cone washer. It was just a little too big and sat on the outter edge of the tapper and may have not made full contact with the conewasher. However they looked like they were seating OK.

2nd
The nuts were f-ing tight, I could hardly get em off the studs I used so much thread locker. But that really doesn't matter if they weren't making full contact with the conewashers in the first place. Plus the fact that I drove 80 plus miles on a loose arm a couple weeks ago probably didn't help in the first place. I should have replaced them when I found they were loose instead of re-tightening them. I really feel this is the reason they failed on me while doing stupid sh!t....


Ohh booger,

Just picked up an 85 front end complete w/ 4.88's for 50.00.. and some labor ( I need to tap his PS box for him )..Almost as good a deal as your free 22re ( not really ) but still a good deal

Another side note... You cannot buy the knuckle bearing anywhere except Toyota

Knuckle bearings are 33.50 each
Studs are 3.50 each
cones are 3.00 each
nuts are 2.50 each

I bought a complete front end for the price of what it would cost just to repair it. And now I have tons of spare parts to give to PAUL when he breaks all of his spares on the trail.Only suggestion I would have when using ( good ) used bearings is to re-use the race that was paired with that bearing.

Go to another dealer.... I got my Toyota knuckle bearings for $25 each.... The prices you were quoted are way high...

you can get the whole kit for $129? allpro...somewhere else cheaper but I can't find the link....

They are Koyo bearings, get the number off them and call up Bearing Supply Co. in downtown Sac and see if their prices are any better. :)
Otherwise, print out another dealers internet discount coupon and take that to Roseville Toyota or Maita or where ever and they will match it (20-25% off list).
Also, Auburn Toyota has 25% off every Wed. from 5-6pm.

Originally posted by SeaBass44
you can get the whole kit for $129? allpro...somewhere else cheaper but I can't find the link....

True - but when I replaced mine, a cheaper aftermarket kit like All Pro sells was not available ;)

Originally posted by DRM


True - but when I replaced mine, a cheaper aftermarket kit like All Pro sells was not available ;)

well you know it is now...you are giving out old info.......they are koyo's to only cheaper in price,,,not quility;) there is another kit in different stages, one comes with 5lbs of grease and wheel bearing too for like 4$299???? I'm still looking........:)

Originally posted by SeaBass44


just buy arms, don't skimp on this part, you can make near anything....but it would suck to break the steering.........could be fatel:eek: :eek: :eek:

I dont drive on the steet. Actually I dont drive period:)

I cant justify 300 bucks for a block of metal when I know I can make them and I got the metal for free...

Plus Im using 1 ton rod ends (not 3/4 ton), already bought a snap on reamer and I want my tierod behind the diff.

Not many prefabbed arms to my liking...

Ill be posting pics with them soon. Trust me, they aint gonna be no el cheapos. They hold up.

Originally posted by ErikB
They are Koyo bearings, get the number off them and call up Bearing Supply Co. in downtown Sac and see if their prices are any better. :)

They are $54 for all 4 out the door.
Steve

Originally posted by TyTy
I cant justify 300 bucks for a block of metal when I know I can make them and I got the metal for free...


Well actually - since you didn't even know the coned surface was an integral part of the arms, then I would say you do NOT know how to make them.

Originally posted by DRM


Well actually - since you didn't even know the coned surface was an integral part of the arms, then I would say you do NOT know how to make them.

Well since he has not made the arms yet and is on here asking the correct way to do it.......he will know how to make them before he does make them........you don't just know how to do something, you learn then apply it:vader2:

Originally posted by SeaBass44


Well since he has not made the arms yet and is on here asking the correct way to do it.......he will know how to make them before he does make them........you don't just know how to do something, you learn then apply it:vader2:

Or, he ignores what has been said, and builds them with standard grade 8 bolts anyway (which I am 99% sure he will still do :p ) then what? ;)

Originally posted by DRM


Or, he ignores what has been said, and builds them with standard grade 8 bolts anyway (which I am 99% sure he will still do :p ) then what? ;)

since it's trail only, he breaks and is stuck:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

www.jtoutfitters.com has the complete front end rebuild for $200.. it comes with all the bearings, grease, even the 54mm socket. they also sell the bearings for $25ea...

i build my own arms and use a 20degree tapered end mill from kbc tools in hayward

part# 1-322-W304

KBC tools 1/800/521/1740

Originally posted by Chopperman
Another side note... You cannot buy the knuckle bearing anywhere except Toyota

Knuckle bearings are 33.50 each
Studs are 3.50 each
cones are 3.00 each
nuts are 2.50 each

I bought a complete front end for the price of what it would cost just to repair it. And now I have tons of spare parts to give to PAUL when he breaks all of his spares on the trail.Only suggestion I would have when using ( good ) used bearings is to re-use the race that was paired with that bearing.


:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: ill remember you said that when im "borrowing" youre last short side inner:D :D

Originally posted by DRM


Or, he ignores what has been said, and builds them with standard grade 8 bolts anyway (which I am 99% sure he will still do :p ) then what? ;)

Then I tear down the roads, running over children with a wrechless disregaurd for life as I make my way to Tennessee in a drunken, no cone washer state. As I pull up in your yard, just as Im coming around the bend, my steering arms sheere from the vehicle....is he braking???? NOOO!!! I accelerate and plow through your house....

No seriously, I will put cone wasahers on there. Im building them next weekend. I dont think it is that crucial for me with the trailered rig and all.

By the way, my 'piece' is so close to drivable I can taste it:D
(Wheelin pics are in my near future:D:D:D:D:D:D)

Originally posted by TyTy


Then I tear down the roads, running over children with a wrechless disregaurd for life as I make my way to Tennessee in a drunken, no cone washer state. As I pull up in your yard, just as Im coming around the bend, my steering arms sheere from the vehicle....is he braking???? NOOO!!! I accelerate and plow through your house....

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Originally posted by DRM


Well actually - since you didn't even know the coned surface was an integral part of the arms, then I would say you do NOT know how to make them.

By the way, Ive seen what's comin out of your camp up there as far as high steer arms and it aint what I would consider bulletproof badass...

Its two pieces welded together!:D:D:D:D:D


I believe you were RAGGIN on someone a while back for having welded steering arms and your SELLING THEM:eek: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by TyTy


By the way, Ive seen what's comin out of your camp up there as far as high steer arms and it aint what I would consider bulletproof badass...

Its two pieces welded together!:D:D:D:D:D


I believe you were RAGGIN on someone a while back for having welded steering arms and your SELLING THEM:eek: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

BaHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Want to bet he comes up with a tounge twister to justify it.........?:flipoff2:

Originally posted by TyTy
By the way, Ive seen what's comin out of your camp up there as far as high steer arms and it aint what I would consider bulletproof badass...

Its two pieces welded together!:D:D:D:D:D


I believe you were RAGGIN on someone a while back for having welded steering arms and your SELLING THEM:eek: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:


Before you think you are smart, how about you do a search... If you can find ANYWHERE I have EVER said that ALL welded arms were a bad idea, I will eat my words.

But the fact is - I have never said that. And if you knew half as much as you think you do - you would not be running your mouth about things you obviously have no clue about.

So either buck up with the info to back up your BS claims, or consider yourself SMACKED DOWN :laughing:




As far as our steering arms - there are 10 or so sets driving around for the last few years, not a single failure of any of them yet :p

BTW - we have taken a set of our arms to to 50,000 lbs in sheared side load press to test that weld.... no failures. You gonna test yours?

But hey, I guess you were right all along... And you didn't even know what the cone washers were for :shaking:

Originally posted by DRM



Before you think you are smart, how about you do a search... If you can find ANYWHERE I have EVER said that ALL welded arms were a bad idea, I will eat my words.

But the fact is - I have never said that. And if you knew half as much as you think you do - you would not be running your mouth about things you obviously have no clue about.

So either buck up with the info to back up your BS claims, or consider yourself SMACKED DOWN :laughing:




As far as our steering arms - there are 10 or so sets driving around for the last few years, not a single failure of any of them yet :p

Im just givin ya a hard time.:D Im not saying that you said ALL welded steering arms are bad, but I am almost positive that you have critisized welded stearing components before...

I am also not saying the arms your makin are not good. (They ain't no sight for sore eyes though:D)

I can make one claim that I am sure of, my arms will be stronger than yours... NANANABOOBOOO!:D :flipoff2:

Originally posted by DRM

So either buck up with the info to back up your BS claims, or consider yourself SMACKED DOWN :laughing:



It's funny, I don't FEEL smacked down:confused:

:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by TyTy
Im just givin ya a hard time.:D Im not saying that you said ALL welded steering arms are bad, but I am almost positive that you have critisized welded stearing components before...

When bubba joe with a Home Depot 110v welder asks about making his own arms - yeah, I tell him not to.

Other than that - you are wrong... again...

I am also not saying the arms your makin are not good. (They ain't no sight for sore eyes though:D)

Look just fine to me... Like the original All Pro arms, but beefier.

I can make one claim that I am sure of, my arms will be stronger than yours... NANANABOOBOOO!:D :flipoff2:


Care to produce some way to back that up? Thought so...

Originally posted by DRM
Originally posted by TyTy
[B]Care to produce some way to back that up? Thought so...

I might could... My arms are going to be flat, made of 1.125" cold rolled steel. I dont what kind of a shear rating that type of steel has but I am pretty sure Im not going to be shearing it off anytime soon:) Id also be willing to bet that 1.125 steel has a shear rating higher than your welded area on your arm... But I could DEFINATLY be wrong, that weld might be stronger...

I do know that if your comparing your arms to All-Pros, kinda sucks that allpro changed their design...:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Bob Williams
I know there is not a lot of room on the top of that knuckle, but it'd be nice to have a couple grooves run into it, and then corresponding raised surfaces in the steering arm that would set in them. Torque the nuts to factory specs, and then the shearing resistance would be shared by the studs, cone washers, bolts, and machined grooves. Another way to do this would be to cut a keyway groove in the arm and knuckle and use a piece of key stock. A friend of mine had the studs actually pull out of his stock toyota "j" arm and knuckle while wheeling once. He was able to get a couple of the studs back in (sort of cross threaded so they had some holding power) then limp out of the woods. Not weird at all if you consider that if you "Hang" a drivers side tire in the air all of the weight is on the the "J" arm, something has to give!! Most of the time it is the arm itself!!!:rasta:

Yah, the arm did break the rest of the time with him before he got his cross over steering. I think he went through about 3 j arms before the cross over stuff came out. He has the first all pro setup from a few years back.
It only took one overnighter in the snow at Evans creek to persuade him to start carrying a spare j arm:D

Originally posted by TyTy


I might could... My arms are going to be flat, made of 1.125" cold rolled steel. I dont what kind of a shear rating that type of steel has but I am pretty sure Im not going to be shearing it off anytime soon:) Id also be willing to bet that 1.125 steel has a shear rating higher than your welded area on your arm... But I could DEFINATLY be wrong, that weld might be stronger...


well actually!

depending upon the type of steel. i'll be willing to bet you are using regular old steel with a shear rating of 50,000 psi. the welding stick can actually has a stronger tensil strength then the metal. if you use 7014 you will have a 70,000 psi tinsel strength. so in all actuallality the weld metal is stronger then the metal you are welding. but it all depends upon your welding ability.

i built my own. when i comared them to the all-pro hysteer arms i won last month i did pretty well. although i made the slop for the acriman (SP) angles going inward instead of out twords the tire. the hole for the tie rods were in the correct places and even the cone washers were pretty close. the all-pro arms were beefier though!

if i had built the acriman angle right i might have used them. the set i'm talking about are not the scary ones i built the first time. i made a new set a month later but never took any pictures. i also made mine out of 1" thick steel. welded them with 7018 at 250 amps on a dc machine! grinded them after each weld and then let them cool a little before i light up the arc again. i doubt they would have broke, but when you get the real thing you feel safer, i threw the ones i built away!:D

good luck ty ty and don't kill any one!

Originally posted by OOP'S
Another way to do this would be to cut a keyway groove in the arm and knuckle and use a piece of key stock.

Now that sounds like a good IDEA, but I don't think there is enough room with that bearing support right in the middle...

Originally posted by ross-sparky-h


well actually!

depending upon the type of steel. i'll be willing to bet you are using regular old steel with a shear rating of 50,000 psi. the welding stick can actually has a stronger tensil strength then the metal. if you use 7014 you will have a 70,000 psi tinsel strength. so in all actuallality the weld metal is stronger then the metal you are welding. but it all depends upon your welding ability.

i built my own. when i comared them to the all-pro hysteer arms i won last month i did pretty well. although i made the slop for the acriman (SP) angles going inward instead of out twords the tire. the hole for the tie rods were in the correct places and even the cone washers were pretty close. the all-pro arms were beefier though!

if i had built the acriman angle right i might have used them. the set i'm talking about are not the scary ones i built the first time. i made a new set a month later but never took any pictures. i also made mine out of 1" thick steel. welded them with 7018 at 250 amps on a dc machine! grinded them after each weld and then let them cool a little before i light up the arc again. i doubt they would have broke, but when you get the real thing you feel safer, i threw the ones i built away!:D

good luck ty ty and don't kill any one!

yeah but the Heat Affected Zone has a tensile strength of 30k, why did you use 250 amps?? was your rod like 5/16":rasta: :rasta:

Originally posted by Chopperman


Now that sounds like a good IDEA, but I don't think there is enough room with that bearing support right in the middle... Or you could dowel pin them like the hubs, You would have to drill them on a milling machine or a radial drill press. My WW II worn out Piece-O-Shit D P would never make it!!!!:rasta:

wow drm's asshole side comes out again:flipoff2: no really if you put stronger studs in the nuckle you could put more force on the arm which (arording to DRM) would make it less likely to break the clamping force between arm and the nuckle?????????


i had welded arms on my truck and gave them to my buddy when i put a manufactured set on my truck and they sell for $120 apiece and are made out of hot rolled flat bar and are much stronger than the arms that are cut out of plate steel and the cast ones. but again i ran my welded ones on my truck for over a year and that was 70 mile a day back and forth to work. as far as i can tell (what my mind tells me) is the cone washers keep the arms centered and would help hold the arm in one place.

tyty make your arms and do as you said:

Then I tear down the roads, running over children with a wrechless disregaurd for life as I make my way to Tennessee in a drunken, no cone washer state. As I pull up in your yard, just as Im coming around the bend, my steering arms sheere from the vehicle....is he braking???? NOOO!!! I accelerate and plow through your house....

please video tape the event so we all can have a good laugh.:D

i think that the "no cone washer and 7inch block f&r are the combo i will use on my next project.



Cliff

Originally posted by DRM


You could make the bolts longer, stronger or bigger - and it is all irrelevant unless you can come up with some way to clamp those two surfaces tighter together.



DRM - using bigger or stronger studs is going to achieve what Chopperman wants, I.E: increase the stud clamping load that prevents the arms from moving in shear and breaking the studs. This can be proved in either case - stronger studs (higher grade) or bigger studs (increase in Tensile stress Area (Ts)). Need to keep this in mind:

Clamp load is known as preload or initial load in tension on bolt. Clamp load (lb) is calculated by arbitrarily assuming useable stud strength is 75% of proof load (PSI) times the Tensile stress Area (sq. in.) of the threaded section of each stud size.

I will use imperial examples in deference to the fact this board is mostly Americans.

Example A: Increase in grade of bolt.

Clamping load developed using 1/2"-13 studs, SAE J429 Grade 5, 1/4"-1", Tensile Strength is 120 ksi, Proof load stress is 85 ksi. Tensile stress area of 1/2"-13 studs is 0.138 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 85ksi x 75% x 0.138 = 8797.5 lb.

Clamping load developed using 1/2"-13 studs, SAE J429 Grade 8, 1/4"- 1-1/2", Tensile Strength is 150 ksi, Proof load stress is 120 ksi. Tensile stress area of 1/2"-13 studs is 0.138 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 120ksi x 75% x 0.138 = 12420 lb.

INCREASING STUD GRADE FROM GRADE 5 TO GRADE 8 INCREASES CLAMPING FORCE BY 3623 lb. OR 41%

Example B: Increase in nominal dia. of stud.

Clamping load developed using 1/2"-13 studs, SAE J429 Grade 8, 1/4"- 1-1/2", Tensile Strength is 150 ksi, Proof load stress is 120 ksi. Tensile stress area of 1/2"-13 studs is 0.138 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 120ksi x 75% x 0.138 = 12420 lb.

Clamping load developed using 9/16"-12 studs, SAE J429 Grade 8, 1/4"- 1-1/2", Tensile Strength is 150 ksi, Proof load stress is 120 ksi. Tensile stress area of 9/16"-12 studs is 0.177 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 120ksi x 75% x 0.177 = 15930 lb.

INCREASING STUD SIZE FROM ½” TO 9/16” INCREASES CLAMPING FORCES BY 3510 lb. OR 28%

The numbers don’t lie. That is all.




:rolleyes:

Originally posted by jasonmt


DRM - using bigger or stronger studs is going to achieve what Chopperman wants, I.E: increase the stud clamping load that prevents the arms from moving in shear and breaking the studs. This can be proved in either case - stronger studs (higher grade) or bigger studs (increase in Tensile stress Area (Ts)). Need to keep this in mind:

Clamp load is known as preload or initial load in tension on bolt. Clamp load (lb) is calculated by arbitrarily assuming useable stud strength is 75% of proof load (PSI) times the Tensile stress Area (sq. in.) of the threaded section of each stud size.

I will use imperial examples in deference to the fact this board is mostly Americans.

Example A: Increase in grade of bolt.

Clamping load developed using 1/2"-13 studs, SAE J429 Grade 5, 1/4"-1", Tensile Strength is 120 ksi, Proof load stress is 85 ksi. Tensile stress area of 1/2"-13 studs is 0.138 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 85ksi x 75% x 0.138 = 8797.5 lb.

Clamping load developed using 1/2"-13 studs, SAE J429 Grade 8, 1/4"- 1-1/2", Tensile Strength is 150 ksi, Proof load stress is 120 ksi. Tensile stress area of 1/2"-13 studs is 0.138 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 120ksi x 75% x 0.138 = 12420 lb.

INCREASING STUD GRADE FROM GRADE 5 TO GRADE 8 INCREASES CLAMPING FORCE BY 3623 lb. OR 41%

Example B: Increase in nominal dia. of stud.

Clamping load developed using 1/2"-13 studs, SAE J429 Grade 8, 1/4"- 1-1/2", Tensile Strength is 150 ksi, Proof load stress is 120 ksi. Tensile stress area of 1/2"-13 studs is 0.138 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 120ksi x 75% x 0.138 = 12420 lb.

Clamping load developed using 9/16"-12 studs, SAE J429 Grade 8, 1/4"- 1-1/2", Tensile Strength is 150 ksi, Proof load stress is 120 ksi. Tensile stress area of 9/16"-12 studs is 0.177 sq. in. Clamping load developed is 120ksi x 75% x 0.177 = 15930 lb.

INCREASING STUD SIZE FROM ½” TO 9/16” INCREASES CLAMPING FORCES BY 3510 lb. OR 28%

The numbers don’t lie. That is all.




:rolleyes:

Sweet... Finally someone with some F-ing TECH. I'm sick of wrenching on the rig so, I'm not even going to look into this until the arm snaps again. So to the back burner it goes...

Originally posted by jasonmt
INCREASING STUD SIZE FROM ½” TO 9/16” INCREASES CLAMPING FORCES BY 3510 lb. OR 28%

The numbers don’t lie. That is all.



What you seem to miss out on is the fact that there are THOUSANDS of sets of high steering arms in use right now, who are using the stock studs WITHOUT FAILURE.


That fact alone should show you that all your fancy math to install larger studs is irrelevant OVERKILL.


As I said when this started - the studs failed because the nuts and/or cone washers were not tight enough. Now I don;t know this for a fact, but I am willing to bet that this is 100% the reason for the failure. And you can take your larger studs and put them in there and it will do the same thing - FAIL - under the same conditions.

All your extra clamping force is irrelevant when the freakin nuts work loose :laughing: :shaking:

dam you do get pissed off when some one disagrees!!!!!!




and i was for the stronger studs not larger.


by the way look for a scary ass toy with grade 8 bolts insted of studs coming your way soon:D

Originally posted by e cliff
dam you do get pissed off when some one disagrees!!!!!!

and i was for the stronger studs not larger.

by the way look for a scary ass toy with grade 8 bolts insted of studs coming your way soon:D

If you think that is "pissed off" - you need to get out more :rolleyes:

Stronger - larger - same thing applies :shaking:

QUOTE]Originally posted by DRM


As I said when this started - the studs failed because the nuts and/or cone washers were not tight enough. Now I don;t know this for a fact, but I am willing to bet that this is 100% the reason for the failure. And you can take your larger studs and put them in there and it will do the same thing - FAIL - under the same conditions.

All your extra clamping force is irrelevant when the freakin nuts work loose

Agreed, BUT going to a higher grade/larger stud is going to also increase the torque value that the nuts are torqued to, making it that much less of a possibility of the nuts backing off.

[/QUOTE]

QUOTE]Originally posted by DRM


I think you miss my point.... still....

The strength of the bolts or studs is pretty much irrelevant. They are just there to provide clamping force to the mating surfaces of the steering arm and knuckle top.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG: the strength/size of the studs as already proved by the “Fancy Math “ are directly related to the amount of clamping forces exerted on the arms.

You could make the bolts longer, stronger or bigger - and it is all irrelevant unless you can come up with some way to clamp those two surfaces tighter together.

See above comment.

Besides that - bolts are actually worse, since you lose the cone washer feature - which is one of the ways the steering arms are able to be kept so tight against the knuckle (like the coned surface of lug nuts keeping a wheel on).

Agreed

But to be simple about it - NO.... switching to grade 8 bolts is NOT the answer... :)

Agreed
[/QUOTE]

QUOTE]Originally posted by DRM


Nope.

I don't care if the studs are twice as strong. To prove my point, I see Dana 60 high steering arms fail the bolts too.

The point still is that once you have overcome the frictional force of the two surfaces, bigger bolts are gonna fail too. [/QUOTE]

So increasing the frictional forces by going to a higher grade/larger size of studs isn’t going to do anything is it Dave??

Originally posted by DRM


Well actually - since you didn't even know the coned surface was an integral part of the arms, then I would say you do NOT know how to make them.

If the "Fancy Math" is new to you, maybe YOU should not be the offering advice on failure modes of studs.

jasonmt - yet another person who fails to see the point.

I fully understand how stronger studs allow for more torque which equals more clamping force.

But if a poorly designed arm does not allow for proper loading of the cone washers, and consequently allows the nuts and cone washers to loosen up because of it - again the stronger and/or larger studs are IRRELEVANT.

Nobody here is arguing that stronger studs adds more strength. The point is that if the freakin nuts are not tight - it doesn;t matter.

I am done with you guys, you can argue with yourselves if you can't grasp this by now :rolleyes::D

Here is the point everyone is makeing...

DRM: You originally said that longer/ bigger/ stronger studs dont matter one bit, its clamping force.

They are saying that longer/ bigger/ stronger studs do matter cause they increase the available clamping force.

Originally posted by DRM

I am done with you guys, you can argue with yourselves if you can't grasp this by now :rolleyes::D

let me pick up where you left off.

if i have not torn off a steer arm while using the stock studs and cone washers then stronger ones are a moot point because the storkers are adequete for the task at hand. the failure was either related to poor design of the aftermarket parts or improper install or maintance.

did you get it all back togather yet? were the surfaces flat?

Originally posted by SeaBass44
did you get it all back togather yet? were the surfaces flat?
Yes, the surfaces were flat and the nuts WERE tight. However, I believe that they sheared because they had previously come loose and I drove on it for some 60 miles or so without stopping to see what the problem was and just retightened them. Also the arms that Lars made for me dont allow nut to catch enough of the studs ( or at least to my satisfaction ). I know that everyone is saying that longer studs won't help, but it will in my case plus it can't hurt to run longer studs anyway. I have several buddys running the same arms and they have the same problem ( with the nuts anyway ). I know , Iknow , Just have Lars re-tapper the holes deeper right ? Well, i would like to get the work done sometime in this century so I'm just going to run longer studs, if I can find them...

Originally posted by Chopperman

.........I'm just going to run longer studs, if I can find them...

Just find a good fastener place and they will have/order what you need.