<IMG width=574 height=252 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/d60hs.JPG">

<IMG width=436 height=316 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/d60hs1.JPG">

used avalanche arms with 1 inch spacers and there tie rod and drag link. the pitman arm is a yj 4 inch drop drilled to have a 3/4 inch hole

Just make sure that pitman arm dont tangle with that spring at full left turn. Looks good. Are you planning on sticking with the double tie rod? Beefy! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Can I ask a newbie type question? If the tie rod is that close to center, does it put more stress into turning it? I've wanted to do mine that way but like you said, I'm afraid that the drag link will enterfear with it...

the stock tie rods coming off, but its raining and i done feel like getting even more wet. the pitman and springs work fine its actually the same pitman i used for my d44 high steer set up i ran before i put the d60 in.

Originally posted by Leader:
<STRONG>Can I ask a newbie type question? If the tie rod is that close to center, does it put more stress into turning it? I've wanted to do mine that way but like you said, I'm afraid that the drag link will enterfear with it...</STRONG>

Yep like you said tie rod closer to the kingpins means more stress in the tierod and rod ends. If you make the distance between the rod end and the kingpin half of what it originally was you double the stress in the rod end.

Originally posted by Gordon:
<STRONG>Yep like you said tie rod closer to the kingpins means more stress in the tierod and rod ends. If you make the distance between the rod end and the kingpin half of what it originally was you double the stress in the rod end.</STRONG>


And, you also double the amount of steering input needed to move the tires. Looks awfully short to me, but what do I know.

<IMG width=498 height=308 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/d60hs2.JPG">


it is shorter but not as bad as it looked in the photo, if i find i dont like the feel of it were it is i can move it thats the nice part about the avalanche arms

I expect it to break the knuckle due to all the stress placed next to the pivot point.

like i said once i get it out on the trail i can test it, i think your all just jealous <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

I'm just a stupid carpenter, but, I don't see how there is any more stress on the knuckle. I understand there is more stress on the joint, due to the reduced leverage, but to me, the knuckle is doing the same amount of work either way...please explain.
My hydro set-up is very close to the same geometry, and I did spit out a hiem joint at the badlands last week, but it was a worn cheapo, and I was pretty hard on the whole rig, so I blew it off.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yjtj:
[QB]<IMG width=498 height=308 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/d60hs2.JPG">

Originally posted by yjtj:
<STRONG>like i said once i get it out on the trail i can test it, i think your all just jealous <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"></STRONG>
Na I already have high steer <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> http://www.respite.org/images/cj66dean/myjeepfront1.jpg

Jealous????? Nope, my tie rod goes behind the knuckles and is WAY out of harms way.

Dimitri

Jealous No pity yes.I understand that you are suposed to put the tierod at the same distance from the center of the kingpin/balljoint as the stock tierod location. That is the optimum steering leverage and if you move it towards the center of... then it takes less input but more torque to turn tighter. Move it away... and that takes less torque and more input or further movement at the pitman which can only be increased by a longer pitman arm, which takes more torque to move. The auto manufacturers spent alot of time and money developing a steering system for a reason, in this case its best to keep it as close to stock dimensions as possible.Am I right steering pros?????

By the way it looks nice and Id just move them out but you will work it out

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: wheelinjp ]

Where the tie rod is located has nothing to do with steering leverage (aka steering ratio). Steering ratio is affected by where the draglink is mounted on the steering arm and by the length of the pitman arm.

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: BenW ]

I'd move the box forward so I could move the drag link and tierod farther away from the kingpin.

everyone with suggestions get your own d60 and do it the way you want, mines staying the way it is

Originally posted by yjtj:
<STRONG>everyone with suggestions get your own d60 and do it the way you want, mines staying the way it is</STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> So... if you aren't open to suggestions/criticism then why the hell did you post this? To brag? Nothing there to brag about. All I see is a missed opportunity for a badass steering system (ala Ant) with the tie-rod BEHIND the axle. I don't like the SRE's either, but like ya said it's yours so who cares what we think. Being an ass when you receive constructive criticism is no way to make friends, on or off the trail. Quit being a stubborn ass and open your eyes to the suggestions that have been offered. <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0">

And yes you are putting a LOT more stress on that knuckle (moreso the driver's knuckle). Simple force balance. The closer the tie-rod to the king pin the higher the force required for a given torque. And where is that force reacted? The knuckle/joints. Like ya said though, you'll figure it out on the trail...

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: Eric Ruhl ]

at the dixe run a couple weeks ago, there was a guy with hydro assist that broke the top of his d-60 knuckle off. it got me thinking that i might just run dual tie rods like your pic shows with hydro assist on the lower one to prevent tearing the top of the knuckle off. the only concern is catching a lotta rocks..

Hey elusive!
If the cylinder doesn't stop before or at the same point as the knuckle(s) stop it will tear stuff apart, no matter how many tie rods you run.

ps...was it You that fell off the mountian on trail #1 ? wtf ?

Right on Eric.
He knows how to get to the point and bring it all into focus. It least when he does figure it out on the trail a 60 knuckle is an easy item to get from most anyone on the trail. NOT
Move the box ahead and fix it befor you a burden on you wheeling buddies and the people that have to get around you when it is broke in the middle of the trail.

everyone with suggestions get your own d60 and do it the way you want, mines staying the way it is

Many people have already done what your doing and can help you do it right. I don't think anybody trying to piss you off, just help.

BTW, I got my own and did your way and didn't work very good. So I did it this way with Ant's arms. <IMG width=376 height=276 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/arms10.jpg">
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Also, I'm open to any faults you might see, I'd rather fix it in my garage.

don't you hate it when there is alot of people who have been there and done that and give advice and someone says they are full of crap??? he hasn't even wheeled the thing yet and he already knows more than eveyone else. he should start a buisness <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0">

like i said i ran similar angles and dimentions on the d44 i had in it. it worked perfect was the best steering i had run. i also said i have to get this one out on the trail and test it and make changes if need be.
please forgive me for not being as smart as you west coasters we dont have the hardcore wheeling or knowledge and skills to be as good as all you guys. if someone wants i will buy you a plane ticket and you can come out here and build my rig for me. oh yeah if you didnt catch on this hole second paragraph is just me saying fuck you. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

<IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

damn nice jason!

please forgive me for not being as smart as you west coasters we dont have the hardcore wheeling or knowledge and skills to be as good as all you guys. if someone wants i will buy you a plane ticket and you can come out here and build my rig for me. oh yeah if you didnt catch on this hole second paragraph is just me saying fuck you.

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Way to go Jason, looks great IMHO.

You forgot to say its a trailer queen and that you wont run Baja 2000 with it, will you?! AHAHAHAHA

<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl:
<STRONG>
And yes you are putting a LOT more stress on that knuckle (moreso the driver's knuckle). Simple force balance. The closer the tie-rod to the king pin the higher the force required for a given torque. And where is that force reacted? The knuckle/joints. Like ya said though, you'll figure it out on the trail...

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: Eric Ruhl ]</STRONG>

Ok I see how there is more force on the tierod and joints but would like to see how there is more on the knuckle(and arm for that matter) The reason there is more force on the tierod is it has less leverage on the knuckles, wouldnt this leverage effectivly mean that the knuckle/steering arm would see the same force no matter where the arm is mounted??? I mean it takes the same force to turn the tires no matter wear the shit is. I know this is a horrible explination but I hope you guys understand! personally I would move the tierod around however understanding the forces on it and because of ackerman angle

Originally posted by NE-RokToy:
<STRONG>The reason there is more force on the tierod is it has less leverage on the knuckles, wouldnt this leverage effectivly mean that the knuckle/steering arm would see the same force no matter where the arm is mounted??? I mean it takes the same force to turn the tires no matter wear the shit is.</STRONG>

I think you're confusing force and torque. Force doesn't turn the tire... TORQUE does. The TORQUE required to turn the tire is the same no matter where the tie-rod connects to the arm, but remember that torque is Force multiplied by the distance from the point of rotation. 1 in-lb of torque is 1 lb of force acting 1 inch from the point of rotation, OR it is also 2 lbs of force acting only 1/2 inch from the point of rotation, etc. Now... you're pushing on the knuckle with the tie-rod / TRE in an effort to turn the wheel. What keeps the wheel from just falling off and sliding away from you when you push on it? The knuckle does by reacting the force back thru the ball joint or king pin and into the axle housing (and then thru the linkage back to the frame where the steering box mounts). The closer the tie-rod to the ball joint or king pin the more stress applied to the knuckle as it tries to keep itself attached to the axle.

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: Eric Ruhl ]

With the tyrod next to the king pin the force is pushing out against the king pin. The further out on the end of the tyrod the more leverage it has so the less force it takes to turn the knuckle. So if there is a rock stopping the tire from turning and you are still Turing the wheel it won't take long until it breaks the casting at the top.
But what do we know we are just a bunch of rock crawling idiots. We don't know anything about pavement pounding POS's that this jackass is the leader of <IMG SRC="smilies/flipoff.gif" border="0"> Go brag about you crap elsewhere. We are not jealous, envious, or F#cking off but we were trying to lend a hand but you were so stupid you went ahead and bit it. So Bite Me!!!If you didn't understand this was me saying F#ck you.

Originally posted by BenW:
<STRONG>Where the tie rod is located has nothing to do with steering leverage (aka steering ratio). Steering ratio is affected by where the draglink is mounted on the steering arm and by the length of the pitman arm.

[ 10-16-2001: Message edited by: BenW ]</STRONG>

Thanks for the correction Ben, I always get the two terms in the wrong spot.


Oh and as far as the dumbass that started this thread lighten up.

i can understand the tie rod thing, that makes sence. but the draglink is in line with the pitman were the factory intended it to be, the way it was on the original d30, the way it was on the d44 and the way it is now.

Originally posted by yjtj:
<STRONG>i can understand the tie rod thing, that makes sence. but the draglink is in line with the pitman were the factory intended it to be, the way it was on the original d30, the way it was on the d44 and the way it is now.</STRONG>

Drag link location looks fine <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> , it's the tie-rod location that is drawing the red flags. Looks like you might be able to move the tie-rod forward one hole? If so, every little bit helps <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> FWIW, the drag link load doesn't depend on tie-rod location.

Another FWIW, dual tie-rods can bind and should be avoided unless great care is taken to ensure proper geometry. This means placing the TRE's directly over one another or setup for zero ackerman angle (Not sure if even possible for non-zero ackerman when not directly over top of each other??).

wasnt gonna keep the stock tie rod on. i put the tie rod in the back hole till i can get it out and flex it once i can get the drivers side stuffed and see how close it comes to the pitman i will move it foward if i can. prolly only get it the one hole further up.

yjtj, in that second pic you posted, is that just a mark on the photo or is that spring pack cracked under the spring plate?
Not being a smartass, just wondering.

actually that is a piece of stretched electric tape i had use when i was putting a shim under the leafs. i taped the shim on till i got the bolt through it and tightened it down

Okay I see you did ut the draglink in the right spot, so right now with the stock tierod on there is no additional stress on the knuckle. I think your best bet would be to leave the stock one on until you have a chance to move your steering box forward.

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: wheelinjp ]

Just an FYI, dual drag links WILL bind with those arms and D60 knuckles. The Avalance arms have all the holes directly in line with the center of the king pin.

Pete

Eric, Pyro... <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Yes the steering will bind with both tierods. And I wouldn't stress to much about the tierod location, its not optimal but it should work. Factory Chevy draglink attaches a mere 4 inches(roughly) from the kingpin center.

Originally posted by yjtj:
<STRONG>like i said i ran similar angles and dimentions on the d44 i had in it. it worked perfect was the best steering i had run. i also said i have to get this one out on the trail and test it and make changes if need be. please forgive me for not being as smart as you west coasters we dont have the hardcore wheeling or knowledge and skills to be as good as all you guys. if someone wants i will buy you a plane ticket and you can come out here and build my rig for me. oh yeah if you didnt catch on this hole second paragraph is just me saying fuck you. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"></STRONG>
Second paragraph? I didnt even see a break in the first one <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Take a little constructive critizism.
Scott <IMG SRC="smilies/grinpimp.gif" border="0"><><

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: 1badjeep ]