Welding?

[EKW]

What is the secret to cosistently making welds like those on the spring hanger in the thread:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562295&page=3

I can't seem to get the >>>> look when I weld. I've tried to speed up, slow down, high wire speed, low wire speed, but I just can't get it.

I know becoming a good welder takes alot of practice, but I think I missed something somewhere.

[Travis Waldher]

Post up pics of what you've done.

My biggest weakness is going too fast leaving a concave weld.

[flaash]

it is all in the movement while welding. that weld patern is the drag and loop
meaning your first pass is a solid drag then loop back over the solid pass in a steady movement. drag loop drag loop drag loop...

[EKW]

So do you make two separate passes, or do you weld for 1/4" or so and then drag back through the 1/4" section?

[sn0border88]

Time under the hood. Thats it.

You can be taught by the best welder in the world, dont mean shit if you cant put it into practice.

But what flaash was talking about was all in one pass.

[Static-XJ]

Maybe try welding in a circular pattern. Make a nice even set of circles acoss the joint. How big the circles need to be is however big to get the puddle out far enough on each side of the joint (I wouldn't go more than 1/4" on either side with short-arc mig). Advance forward in the joint about half your circle size each time you come around. Need to be steady and even for the whole bead.

[threadkiller]

I think you are getting bad advice. Your posts are worded in a way that makes me wonder if you've had any formal training at all. Mig welding isn't about fast or slow wire speed. It's about PROPER wire speed. Do you know how to properly set the wire speed for what you're welding?

Your welds will be MUCH stronger if you can apply the basic fundamentals to your work instead of worrying about how pretty the bead is.

Lincoln and Miller have online tutorials that teach the basics of welding. You may also want to check out Hobart's welding forum and WeldingWeb's forum as well.

[EKW]

You're right, I have not had any "formal" training. I do have the Miller mig welding book which I have read.

I always set my welding machine to the settings chart that is the inside of the access panel. I only vary from those settings while 'experimenting'.

[KRMNALMIND]

I totally agree with what is above. I took welding for years in my apprenticeship. The books are great to get the principles and metallurgy.However you will learn way more hour for hour in the booth with your hood down. I have seen many different guys with a different pattern wether it was halfmoon semi circle or zigzag do what is comfortable to you. Just make sure you have no undercut or porosity in your joint. what we were welding really dictated how it was welded. as far as if we were doing a rut fill and cover pass or combining the root and fill then finishing up with a cover pass. once you feel prety good about your joints cut a few up and bend them cross ways then you will get a good idea how you are doing. good luck and remember there is a wealth of knowledge and support on this board so don't hesitate to ask and please don't start on roll cages. Start on projects around the house nothing meant to save your life or others until you really feel comfortable.

Craig

[fj40charles]

I always set my welding machine to the settings chart that is the inside of the access panel. I only vary from those settings while 'experimenting'.

Door settings on most welders are suggested settings to start with. Good chance you'll have to adjust setting to get the best arc depending on brand of mig wire, types of metal being welded, weld position (verticle up requires less amps), voltage to your house, etc.,

It best to spend lots of time burning wire practicing. How a weld bead looks does not necessarily indicate the structural strength.

[Wicked_S10]

A large percentage is the machine too. If you are trying to weld .25 plate with .023 wire in a MM135, W/o hours of prep work you will never get results like you see in the link you posted. A small welder simply does not have enough current to penetrate that deeply on a single pass in heavy material. You will just end up with filler built up on the surface, w/ little or no penetration. Tell us what kind of machine you are useing, and how you prep your joints. Also post up pictures.

Later,
Jason

[EKW]

I have a Miller 140 spooled with .030 wire. I know it's not the best machine, but it's all I got right now.

As far as prepping joints, I usually clean both surfaces with a grinder giving the edges to be welded a slight bevel.

Thanks for the advice so far. Pirate definately has the most knowledgable people on the subject of welding-fabricating.

[Wicked_S10]

if it is just the pattern you are after, that is 99% technique and will take practice. If you are looking for your welds to lay in deeper, not sit like a hill on the surface, then, with a welder as small as you have, you will need to make a deep bevel at the joint. The deeper the bevel is, the closer to 100% penetration you will on the first pass. Now, the catch is, the deeper you bevel it, the more you will have to fill, so it could presumably take several passes to completely weld the joint. It can be done with a small machine, but it will take some time.

Later,
Jason

[Wicked_S10]

BTW, still try to post up pictures if you can, it will be a lot easier to give relevant advise.

[mustange70]

I'm surprised it hasn't been said yet, but running back over the hot weld puddle with mig can and will cause lack of fusion (ie cold lapping) with the short circuit mig, DO NOT try to make mig welds looks like tig welds, if you want tig welds get a tig, simple as that, as there is a number of issues that can arise, with the biggest one being the lack of fusion issues.

To get a nice consistence puddle with mig is to become consistence yourself, find a simple easy pattern that works well for you (remember to stay on the leading edge of the puddle, don't slow down to make the puddle fill the joint, make multiple passes, in reality you shouldn't being doing anything thicker than 1/8 in one pass with most any process and electrode the common backyard fabricator would use), then practicce practice, don't try to make it look like a professional welders done it, as that takes years of experience, just practice on making it look as consistence and properly shaped as you can.

[BumpyDodge]

If you want to MIG like that it's easy: Set a 220v CV power supply to around 20.5 or 21 volts. with .035 wire and C-25 gas. (You can do it with straight CO2, but the spatter kind of ruins the effect) Adjust wire feeder speed until it welds smoothly on a piece of scrap. Go to work and weld ... Small circle, move 1/4" quickly, small circle, move 1/4" quickly, small circle, move 1/4" quickly. Don't let your finger off the trigger, vary your travel speed.

move torch like this -> *0-0-0-0-0-* or this *0_0_0_0_0*

I DO NOT like to criticize other people's work, but... I'll take the flames and say it's actually lousy technique with a MIG. I got into an argument with a coworker over this same topic before, so it's a sore spot with me.

My argument:
A professional welder will tell you it's not as strong as a smooth consistent low crown MIG weld bead on heavy plate. (straight line on hight heat and feed or circle,circle,circle...., moving right along without a pause). If you match the heat and wire feed/wire size to your weld properly, it won't have excessive crown and look like a "dead caterpillar" on plate.

The ripples caused by the circle-move, or worse yet, the overlapping tacks a.k.a "stacked dimes" technique just add unecessary stress raisers in the weld. They also have shallower weld penetration where the operator "whips" than a constant travel speed MIG bead would have. If you don't believe me, ask an AWS member. An article in Four Wheel Drive magazine is not proof it's an acceptable technique. To the guy who's supposedly an AWS certified welding inspector on this board- that's your cue to chime in if you're reading this.

The reason it's become popular are because
1)It looks like a TIG weld to the untrained eye.
2)customers prefer the ripple look it to a "regular" MIG weld - it sells better.
3)It makes a weld on steel look more "exotic" because it resembles an AL weld.

I'll agree with mustange70 on one point- If you want a TIG weld "look", use a TIG.

To add further fuel to the flames I'll surely get... A TIG weld on steel that heavy gauge really won't have that much ripple either - it'll be damn near smooth. It's only necessary on lighter gauge materials to prevent burn through. It's also a lot easier to pulse if you're doing AL work - pulsed TIG causes a rippled look.

Argue away!

[mustange70]

Seems like you and me bumpy are on the same page :). A little more depth to it. it comes down to the fact that short sircuiting mig (i have yet to meet a backyard welder with a machine capable of performing the spray transfer) lacks the pushing power that is needed to push through a molten weld puddle, and is where the problems of poor penetration arise, and also you only have good penetration where you point the gun.

A proper weld profile should be smooth along the edges with minimal ripples (ripples cause stress risers when improperly shaped), with a slighty convex profile.

(bumpy i'm a welding examiner and csa pipeline inspector up here in alberta)

[jasonmt]

If you want to MIG like that it's easy: Set a 220v CV power supply to around 20.5 or 21 volts. with .035 wire and C-25 gas. (You can do it with straight CO2, but the spatter kind of ruins the effect) Adjust wire feeder speed until it welds smoothly on a piece of scrap. Go to work and weld ... Small circle, move 1/4" quickly, small circle, move 1/4" quickly, small circle, move 1/4" quickly. Don't let your finger off the trigger, vary your travel speed.

move torch like this -> *0-0-0-0-0-* or this *0_0_0_0_0*

I DO NOT like to criticize other people's work, but... I'll take the flames and say it's actually lousy technique with a MIG. I got into an argument with a coworker over this same topic before, so it's a sore spot with me.

My argument:
A professional welder will tell you it's not as strong as a smooth consistent low crown MIG weld bead on heavy plate. (straight line on hight heat and feed or circle,circle,circle...., moving right along without a pause). If you match the heat and wire feed/wire size to your weld properly, it won't have excessive crown and look like a "dead caterpillar" on plate.

The ripples caused by the circle-move, or worse yet, the overlapping tacks a.k.a "stacked dimes" technique just add unecessary stress raisers in the weld. They also have shallower weld penetration where the operator "whips" than a constant travel speed MIG bead would have. If you don't believe me, ask an AWS member. An article in Four Wheel Drive magazine is not proof it's an acceptable technique. To the guy who's supposedly an AWS certified welding inspector on this board- that's your cue to chime in if you're reading this.
The reason it's become popular are because
1)It looks like a TIG weld to the untrained eye.
2)customers prefer the ripple look it to a "regular" MIG weld - it sells better.
3)It makes a weld on steel look more "exotic" because it resembles an AL weld.

I'll agree with mustange70 on one point- If you want a TIG weld "look", use a TIG.

To add further fuel to the flames I'll surely get... A TIG weld on steel that heavy gauge really won't have that much ripple either - it'll be damn near smooth. It's only necessary on lighter gauge materials to prevent burn through. It's also a lot easier to pulse if you're doing AL work - pulsed TIG causes a rippled look.

Argue away!

I had more typed out but the computer ate it, I will leave it at this:

There are more than a few of us on this board that hold AWS, CWB, National Board, API and various jurisdictional qualifications in the field, I personally think the tack tack BS (and other subjects) have been beat to death and I have no interest beating the putrid dead corpse of those horses any more.

My response to a post on this board (if given) will likely not be the same response I would give in a professional capacity when dealing with code work as the circumstances and resources greatly differ. I would much rather see advice posted to help someone out within the limits of their situation rather than the typical "Buy a bigger machine, my xxxx is the best because I bought it" response.

[BumpyDodge]

I had more typed out but the computer ate it, I will leave it at this:

There are more than a few of us on this board that hold AWS, CWB, National Board, API and various jurisdictional qualifications in the field, I personally think the tack tack BS (and other subjects) have been beat to death and I have no interest beating the putrid dead corpse of those horses any more.

My response to a post on this board (if given) will likely not be the same response I would give in a professional capacity when dealing with code work as the circumstances and resources greatly differ. I would much rather see advice posted to help someone out within the limits of their situation rather than the typical "Buy a bigger machine, my xxxx is the best because I bought it" response.

So aside from telling me you don't agree with the way I put it, what's YOUR advice to EKW with his MM140? FYI: I don't own a MIG welder, I only worked (uncertified) with what my various employers had. I think I know about "working with what you've got". If you've got no interest, why even bother to comment? Post a link to another thread if it's been beaten to death.

[mustange70]

the tack tack tack thread in the general 4x4 forum.

[ironpig70]

Time under the hood. Thats it.

You can be taught by the best welder in the world, dont mean shit if you cant put it into practice.

But what flaash was talking about was all in one pass.



yep lots of time burning wire and scrap metal and getting to know your welder and conditions that will effect it such as outside temp, humidity, wind.

[EKW]

Thanks for the advice BumpyDodge. I guess there is a reason I don't see pictures of the 'stacked dime' weld bead in the Miller MIG book that I have.

it won't have excessive crown and look like a "dead caterpillar" on plate.

This is my biggest problem. Alot of my welds come out looking like a dead caterpillar. What is the solution? Slower wire speed, faster travel, more voltage, or a combination of all three?

[jasonmt]

'So aside from telling me you don't agree with the way I put it, what's YOUR advice to EKW with his MM140? FYI: I don't own a MIG welder, I only worked (uncertified) with what my various employers had. I think I know about "working with what you've got". If you've got no interest, why even bother to comment? Post a link to another thread if it's been beaten to death.

I was responding more to the subtle "AWS certified welding inspector" comment, you really would not have liked what I had originally typed up.

I do not see anywhere in my post where I said I have no interest specifically, I did allude to the fact that trying to have a discussion with someone who lacks a basic understanding in the subject being discussed holds no interest for me (The tack-tack threads if you are in fact that dense).

Back to the specifics in this post, as the subject matter has been gone over times to numerous to mention, MY ADVICE would be for EKW to search and not only here so he can decide who has advice with some validity. Case in point would someone be posting about spray transfer and 0.035" wire in a thread with a Miler 140 being the machine used and the operator being new to welding...