i've decided instead of pissing around forever with the stock axles just to run 35's, i'm going to have diamond axles built, run e-lockers, and have the option of running bigger tires later without upgrading. i took some measurements the other day. i got a WMS to WMS measurement of 61 3/16, with the center of the diff. being 24 11/16 from the passenger WMS. Do these sound right? obviously i'm going to check them again before ordering, but i just wondered if anyone else had taken the time to take these measurements. Also, the factory land rover castor is 3 degrees correct?

Why not go wider?

what steering components are you going to use?

If its kingpin 60 stuff and you are keeping the suspension stock you pretty much have to go wider or the coil buckets end up sitting on top of the inner knuckles.

Not a easy as dropping the diamond in, couple of things if your working with a D2...

Stock width will work if you go coilover, you'll need at least 2 1/2 inches per side if you go stock/coils. Your going to need to custom make radius arm mounts for the stock arms, so why not go just get rid of the stock shit.

You'll need to rework the panhard to get the geometry right, if you plan on using the stock panhard rod...

You'll need at least hydro-assist if you keep the stock LR steering box, full hydro would be the way to go if you plan on anything bigger than a 37"

Castor is about 3 degrees, you'll need 5 to 7 depending on lift, which you'll need to fit 35's. You planning a lift, Right?

Plan on sliding the rear back a couple of inches so you can fit the tires, which means new upper and lower coil buckets and shock mounts in the rear. Plan on a new rear suspension ( A-bar 3 link, there's not enough room for a proper 4 link in either D2 or D1) to gain any benefits from that axle and tire combo.

On D1, why not just do the Rovertracks toy conversion, give you a pretty stout set-up, with lot's of options...


just some insight, I'm sure there's more...but it's 110 here and my mind is melting

frank

i'm running 3 inches of lift already. i'm custom building radius arms for the front and trailing arms for the rear. similar to toyota 80 series land rover radius arms in the front. i'll also bend them in for tire clearance. they will be 2" .250 CrMo. i'm using evolution fab. heim joints on the top. i'm also making a new panhard rod for the front. i'm going to use the DAP fender flares to keep it legal too. i'm not going too much wider because of the offset of the wheels i'm running. my plan is to stick with 35's at this point, so i'm planning hydro assist. the castor was my biggest concern at this point as i've never messed with steering geometry too much.

i'm running 3 inches of lift already. i'm custom building radius arms for the front and trailing arms for the rear. similar to toyota 80 series land rover radius arms in the front. i'll also bend them in for tire clearance. they will be 2" .250 CrMo. i'm using evolution fab. heim joints on the top. i'm also making a new panhard rod for the front. i'm going to use the DAP fender flares to keep it legal too. i'm not going too much wider because of the offset of the wheels i'm running. my plan is to stick with 35's at this point, so i'm planning hydro assist. the castor was my biggest concern at this point as i've never messed with steering geometry too much.

D1 or D2?

Again, D1 or D2, I'll gather from your last post it's a D1, if that's the case, you can gain the exact same end result with the the rovertracks toy conversion...If you go the diamond route, then you going to need to go longer on the axle to fit the coil buckets...plus a lot of fab work to get everything to fit and work...quick edit, no need for crmo on the radius arms, or the nend for tire clearance...

Why not go wider?

I'm with Pendy on this one. Add at least an inch to each side to allow for coil mounting pads and also to increase (or reduce) steering radius. With the 35" tires, you will have significantly reduced turning radius.

According to the FSM (Pendy :flipoff2:), caster is three degrees. But, it also adds that the swivel pin inclination is seven degrees.

it's a D1. i ordered the housings today. i went an inch wider per side. and 5 degrees of castor i'm running toy ends, not dana 60 stuff. the biggest reason i didn't go with the rovertracks stuff is the stock rover wheels have a little over 5 inches of backspacing, the wheels i'm using have 3, so tire clearance shouldn't be as big of an issue. i might not need a bend for tire clearance, it's hard to tell. i have 235 85's on it now, and they rub at full lock. i'm a machinist, so i do know i don't need CrMo, but while i'm making them, why not? as far as the rovertracks stuff it looks like you'd have 5100 into it for the front and rear including diffs with detroits. the diamonds with a full floater rear, e-locker diffs, and 30 spline longs will be around 5700. plus i already have two toy front axles for all the small parts. obviously i'll have some money into fabbing the suspension, but being that i'm a machinist that cost will be minimal. so for me the choice was pretty easy. it'll be nice not worrying about the sheet metal housing.

Have fun, you got some work ahead of you:D...the toy guy's that I've talked with don't run the elocker in the rear, never got in to it because I'm planning ARB's, but it's not a easy fix if it grenades...brackets and such are readily available, even more so now, compared to when I started my swap. drop me a pm if want some info on brackets and such...

frank

thanks. i have read about the splines twisting and the broken inner end getting stuck in the third member not letting you pull the third member out to remove it. since mine will be offset and a fulll floater all i would have to do is pull the short side axle shaft (because it's probably the long one that broke) and stick a bar in and pound the broken shaft out. the reason i went with the elocker is that if anything outside the diff fails it stays in the position it was in as opposed to an arb unlocking. you could also pull the actuator and switch it manually in the event of a failure of the wiring.

you can run 35's on rover axles with chromo shafts and 24 spline longfields.....

all that work for just that?

you would be better off going with a toy conversion which will run 37"+ with little work....:shaking:

oh well, good luck reinventing the wheel.

that's what I said...

that's what I said...

I concur...35-37 heavy truck Rovota axles are best bang for the buck...

Unless you have a heavy wallet and want to spend it...

If nobody reinvented the wheel, we wouldn't have the Toyota conversion.

I'm sure there was a point where folks were telling Keith it wouldn't work and wasn't worth the time.

The 60 is a proven setup. Maybe not on a Rover, but tried and proven to be pretty darned bulletproof.

no question a d60 cream of the crop strong.. point is, for 35s??? way over kill. Hey if the guy is skilled and can do the work then do it.....but from what I gather he dosen't know WTF he is doing.. otherwise he would do it and then maybe show us what he did.

anything can be done but you still can be a dumb fuck about it. :flipoff2:

It's not a 60, it's toyota hybrid...I wouldn't question putting 60's under the truck to run 40's.:D But it seems overkill to do all this for 35's, when with a little machine work you can accomplish the exact same thing..."EDIT" I'm not bashing this, I looked into those axles housing before I went the fzj80 route...

as i origionally said, i'm not so much worried about shafts, i would just rather ditch the sheetmetal housings. *edit* i also get far better brakes, vented rotors, manual hubs front and rear should i choose (i'm getting a full float rear). and every replacement part is cheaper and easier to find. also if i were looking for the best bang for my buck i wouldn't have bought a land rover.

krazz1e: i'm not running any 60 stuff, just toy stuff. way overkill? maybe a little, but as i already went over the the pricing, i'll probably only end up with 1500 more into it because of the parts i already had. from what you gather, you don't know a fucking thing about me. i'll post stuff up in 4 weeks when my housings get here, until then there isn't a lot for me to do besides measure...

oh lol... doing diamond toy axles?

yeah great idea. :laughing: enuf said. you are making this hard on yourself. you can put toy centers in the rover axle housing (which is pretty strong, common, easy to get and bolts right up!).

at least get some Spidertrax.

i'm not sure how many times i need to say that i don't want sheet metal housings. i also don't want the shitty land rover brakes and ridiculously priced solid rotors. i also want cheaper replacement parts. the rovertracks setups look great for someone who wants the easiest route and doesn't want to do any welding, that isn't me. lots of people run 39+ inch tires on longfield birfs and inner axles and toy diffs. this gives me lots of room to go bigger, which people always choose to do. i am only working with 190 horsepower, i don't need anything stronger.
here, i drew up a 3d model of the new setup in solidworks. unfortunately the upload manager screwed up the 3d rendering, so it looks a lot like mspaint...:flipoff2:

I hope the after pics are better.

LET ME SEE
you "have" a 3 inch lift ?
and you are putting "new" axels and what all
but you have not even made or bought a bumper front or rear or best that I can tell even installed a sticker on your rig (i mean truck)

post up posser

HEY PT TRANSLATE WOULD YOU PLEASE

LET ME SEE
you "have" a 3 inch lift ?
and you are putting "new" axels and what all
but you have not even made or bought a bumper front or rear or best that I can tell even installed a sticker on your rig (i mean truck)

post up posser

HEY PT TRANSLATE WOULD YOU PLEASE

Translated from Afrikaans

You're a poseur and we don't want to hear from you until you have actually done something revolutionary to you truck.

How's that?

PT -

Id say your DEAD ON THE MONEY! :grinpimp:

it'll be nice not worrying about the sheet metal housing.

Took a look at their web site. Diamonds ARE cut, bent and welded sheet metal?

Why not go portals if you're ready for the cost and hazzle of a complete axle swap?

PT -

Id say your DEAD ON THE MONEY! :grinpimp:

AFI said it, I just translated (of course, it was what I'd been wanting to say since shortly after the thread began and the true nature of the OP was made evident).

I've been making room for my 60s inside and if AFI had shown up today like he said he would, I'd have the brackets for those 60s, but alas, I must continue to wait until the donor parts arrive. I'm only going to reinvent the axle part of the wheel. I'm still debating using the drum braked Sals I found earlier in the year, but it's six hours away from me. But, I now have the $ to do the job. Fixing Rovers is my business. Sadly, business is good.

okay, i know i don't have any stickers, and those do increase ground clearance and breakover angle quite a bit. they also add 30 ft lbs of torque...i'm not quite advanced enough to put stickers on yet. i'd also say that building bumpers before i have my axle and tire position set would be fairly stupid, but some people just love to do things twice. since that picture the plastic ends were pulled off the stock bumpers and the front valence was trimmed which is about all that's needed to wheel it with no lockers and 235 85's...also, 1/4 plate is not sheet metal...it's plate. it's kind of a misnomer, but plate comes in sheets. sheet metal comes in rolls. not too many places are getting rolls of 1/4 steel. portals are entirely too much for me size and weight wise. first you people tell me the diamond/toyota axles are overkill, then you suggest portals? if you are all going to bash this at least get your story straight. and like i said before, what the fuck do you want me to post, the housings won't be here for 4 weeks. anyway, i'll be on a mission trip in Honduras for the next two weeks, so bash away.

what a fucking stupid reply. And just so you know every single thickness of steel is in roll form at some point including 1/4" And yes some people do get 1/4" rolls like my company. Now I would agree that normally you would be correct but it's those damn absolutes that kill you.

As for the truck I think you have a decent idea it's just bad execution. If you want to stay with that size tire and all ready spent the money on the axles why waste more money on stuff you don't need like linking the axles. But that's just my opinion not worth that much

-ben

I think its funny that you choose to give another poster a hard time because he is spending too much money on rims but then post up this.

yeah, 460.00 for one cast aluminum wheel that weighs as much as it's steel counterpart, that's exactly the same as upgrading to better axles...why has no one said anything about the guy who suggested portal axles...yeah, that's not stupid for 35's??? if i were pissing around with junkyard 60's no one would have said a thing. the sheet metal issue is retarded anyway because my tubes will be over twice as thick as the rover tubes and the housing almost twice as thick. and i'm not linking anything. please show me in what post i said anything about linking the axles? i'm running radius arms in the front and basically the same setup in the back maybe moved back a few inches. hell, if you want to piss all over my ideas at least read the posts to see what i'm doing. *edit* and on top of that, someone actually gave me a hard time about not having stickers...

I guess what everybodies trying to say is that it's pretty stupid to rip out the rover shit just to run 35's, and now it get's even more confusing that your keeping the stock suspension set-up:shaking:. Why are you so concerened about the axle tubes? I don' think anyone has bent a rover axle housing, so that's why everyone is asking WHY?
Also, have you thought about how much cutting your going to have do fit the 35's in the wheelwells on a 3 inch lift?

i already said earlier (this is getting old) that i'm using the DAP flares, which require a ton of cutting. i've also said more than once that i want better brakes and cheaper more readily available replacement parts.
maybe you're all right, maybe i'll keep the shitty sheetmetal housings, and the crappy brakes that cost a fortune to service and the absurd lug pattern. i'll take the 1500 i've saved and spend 100 on some cast sewer pipe caps, weld those to my diffs to make sure i take home as much dirt as possible from my wheeling, then i'll paint a smiley face on them to look like a real redneck asshole. i'll take the remaining 1400 and buy a truck load of busch pounders.

What ever...Doing this to run 40's would make a lot more sense. Still haven't addressed why your going to run the stock suspsension set-up...

i'm just running 35's now because that's what i have and i want to leave the option open to go bigger when the 35's are worn. i'm replacing the frame mounted bushings with heim joints, probably evolution fab units. with the shortish wheelbase, i don't want or need 50 inches of articulation. i also don't want the complication or expense of a link setup which as someone stated earlier really won't gain me a whole lot for the trouble it would take.

i am in the middle of an axle swap. just to run 35s. nothing that once touched the frame is rover anymore, including the steering box.
this was supposed to be done in january.

you will find that leaving the stock suspesion will not be a workable solution the more unrover you make it.

maybe try to wear a cup when posting here, it can get rough.

eventually you will get to the point when pt won't call you back, :flipoff2:but it is ok, you can figure these rover things out on your own, you are a big boy.

i totally agree that the brakes suck, that is why i went with all spicer stuff. but i miss the rover lug pattern. it was cool and unique. the rover toy swap is a good solid reliable and strong option.

you will have to build the truck around the 60s and the 60s around the truck, trust me.

good luck:spam:

there are other ways to improve the braking, i.e. hydroboost, d90 roto/calpier conversion. Besides you don't really know what the brakes are like with 35's. It's not terrible...

anyway..........have fun in hondurus don't eat out the hookers, err I mean don't drink the water.

i know what the brakes are like with 32´s... and switching to d90 stuff doesn´t exactly make finding replacement parts cheaper or easier.
and i have been avoiding the hookers...err water.

i'll give you something... you'll have different steering setup, which will probably enable you to run various toy 3rds. And beefier axle. Sure OK. Happy? :laughing:

Read this whole thread and I'm trying to figure out what everyone is slamming this guy for.
Apparently, you're all concerned that he's overbuilding his axles?!
WTF?!
I've seen a lot of guys get (correctly) flamed for underbuilding, but for going too strong? New one to me.
As he's said at least 3-4 times, he's building for the possibility of going bigger in the future. You know, the way you're supposed to.
Perhaps he should build for 35s, go to 37s, break, and have to rebuild? Yea, that'd be the way to go.
My favorate post is the one from the idiot who called him a poser for building up the driveline before he builds the showy shit like bumpers (Somebody please teach him what poser means).
Yea, some of you guys do bring the funny.

Spork, if you have the expertise, just do it. Bringing things like this to Rover boards will get you maybe 1-2 guys with actual tech, however, sorting through the 20 lemmings with assho, er, opinions to find them is rarely worth the trouble.

bringing some tech...soon. i know this is worthless without pics, they will be coming soon. i have my housings, rear shafts for the full floater (one 40in 300M shaft from currie b/c they couldn't fit a 4130 shaft that long in the heat treating oven). front shafts and 30 spline longs should be here this week. to be ordered this week are brackets from ballistic, e-locker diffs, and evolution fab. joints. because of budget constraints however, i'm going to run factory 4.10 diffs (600.00 cheaper for pair than 4.88's) and at most 33's, likely just until i can put the 35's on next fall. you'll all love the wheels i'm going to run. they are for another project, but are 6 lug, so i'll run them for the time being. i'm also going to run stock toy knuckles with ARP studs instead of 6 stud knuckles, but with the tires i'll be running they won't be a problem. a couple pics tomorrow hopefully.

I guess what everybodies trying to say is that it's pretty stupid to rip out the rover shit just to run 35's, and now it get's even more confusing that your keeping the stock suspension set-up:shaking:. Why are you so concerened about the axle tubes? I don' think anyone has bent a rover axle housing, so that's why everyone is asking WHY?
Also, have you thought about how much cutting your going to have do fit the 35's in the wheelwells on a 3 inch lift?


This is all BS. The tubes get bent all the time.

I like what you are doing spork. Keep us posted.

Oh its for a disco. You will be cutting. Who is building the diamonds for you. Maybe I could loan you some bare housings to get it done quicker. They could just copy the stock mountings to the diamonds.


JP

contrary to what mongosd2 said, i'm not running the stock suspension, but thanks. i'm doing a radius arm setup of some kind, but something to allow a little more flex, the stock setup is just too stiff. i like the flex you can get out of the landcruiser radius arm setup where both axle mounts are on a horizontal plane so that they aren't fighting each other. not dead set on that yet. the rear setup will remain virtually the stock, just corrected for the three inches of lift, with bent arms for clearance.

I got the impression from what you posted about the stock set-up...

contrary to what mongosd2 said, i'm not running the stock suspension, but thanks. i'm doing a radius arm setup of some kind, but something to allow a little more flex, the stock setup is just too stiff. i like the flex you can get out of the landcruiser radius arm setup where both axle mounts are on a horizontal plane so that they aren't fighting each other. not dead set on that yet. the rear setup will remain virtually the stock, just corrected for the three inches of lift, with bent arms for clearance.
first off anything you post from here on out is WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS:flipoff2:....ok now from ribbing, i like the radius arm style for the very reason that they are stiff. i know this sounds counter intuitive, but with the linked rear, the rear flexes like butter and the front is somewhat stiff, but nice and stable. this helps me not need anti-sway bars. plus it seems to be the set up that provides the least amount of bump steer pound for pound. bear in mind these are very UNEDUCATED opinions. i have only made a handful of these setups so i would only consider myself experienced, in that i have some experience, not an expert.

i realise that whatever front flex i gain is going to be at the expense of the "sway bar" effect of most radius arm setups. my goal is really just to get the front flex a little more on par with the rear.

i am going to sound like a broken record, but i would take 1" of traction for 20" of flex, unless you just want to max out an rti ramp. my limited experience out here on 5+ trails in the az rocks tells me that "flex" isn't what its oft cracked up to be.:smokin:

got all my stuff from ballistic on friday. not overly inpressed. 40+ lbs were shoved into one little single layer box that was rather deformed when it got to me, not to mention all the rod ends and such had been banged off of each other for a couple thousand miles. then i found that the right hand and left hand tubing inserts don't match...at all. for 140.00 the rights and lefts should look the same. i know they will perform the same, but every time i look at the links i'll notice that. also, for 7.00 you don't get a pair of misalignment spacers, you get one...yes, just one spacer for 7.00...besides the fact that the price is ridiculous for one spacer, i can't think of any reason or application where you would only want one spacer, since it changes the hole diameter. i had pretty high expectations based on their web sight. i am going to call monday about the inserts and to order the rest of the misalignment spacers i need.

When I ordered my stuff from Ballistic a while back, all my left and right hand tube inserts were the same size and profile, everything was well packed, and really it was one of the very few good transactions I have actually had with vendors on this board... hopefully this is an anomaly and not indicative of their current service.

Slightly off-topic, but 4x4 vendors have become so shitty, that I'm not sure I'll ever take on another major build up just because of the hassle that is involved....everything that is "on the shelf" never is, and "2 weeks" means 5+ months, even the "big name" PBB vendors have been absolutely worthless in my dealings.

so you came here and bitched before even talking to Ballastic? I really hate when people do that complain on the internet before letting the vendor deal with it. This is the first complaint that I've heard about ballastic. What do you mean the threads are different? Different thread count? Different thread design? What do you mean? On the mis alignment spacers depending on what they are made of or how they are machining it could easily cost 5 bucks to make them so making 2 bucks profit isn't all the much. Sounds like you are a complainer. Take some more pictures so we can see how poor of a product they gave you

-ben

I can see both sides of the picture.. Being one that tries like hell to keep enough stuff (on the Shelves) to not create problems for my customers and being frustrated with my suppliers if there are delays. In my case I try to keep the products in numbers that are "scheduled" in manufacture over a few weeks, if they can be made in a day or so I keep fewer of those. It's hard to know what will sell next. An example could be this last summer, dead slowwww. Then the weeks during and after the MAR just exploded I couldn't keep stuff on the shelves. How could I predict that? I also weed out problem manufacturers and move to other shops until I can rely on their word, six months or six days the lead time needs to be accurate.

In the defense of Ballistic I'd say something didn't work, one of their processes failed, let them make it right for you. I'm sure they didn't try to make a bad impression.

i know for a fact that jeff will bend over backward for a customer. if you were that dissatisfied he would have resent the order.

and he actually manufactures the parts in house, not resell someone elses stuff.

should have called and not bitched here.:shaking:

so you came here and bitched before even talking to Ballastic? I really hate when people do that complain on the internet before letting the vendor deal with it. This is the first complaint that I've heard about ballastic. What do you mean the threads are different? Different thread count? Different thread design? What do you mean? On the mis alignment spacers depending on what they are made of or how they are machining it could easily cost 5 bucks to make them so making 2 bucks profit isn't all the much. Sounds like you are a complainer. Take some more pictures so we can see how poor of a product they gave you

-ben

ben, learn to read. i never said the threads were different, in fact i said they would perform the same. look at the picture, if you can't see the difference you're an idiot. the outside profile is hardly even similar, not to mention you can see that both are beat up from shipping, which wrapping them in brown paper would have prevented. if you are going to sell dissimilar parts you need to notify the customer. as for posting here first. this wasn't an order mistake, someone gathered the parts then packed them in a box. they know what they shipped and that the packaging was shitty, again, no misunderstanding there. as for the misalignment spacers, i work at a cnc shop with lots of stainless, the biggest point there wasn't price, ridiculous might have been the wrong word. but who sells them individually? no one would ever buy a misalignment spacer singly.

i know for a fact that jeff will bend over backward for a customer. if you were that dissatisfied he would have resent the order.

and he actually manufactures the parts in house, not resell someone elses stuff.

should have called and not bitched here.:shaking:

i never said he didn't manufacture his own stuff. do you people just read half of the post then make up whatever you want. again, if it were a genuine mistake i would have called them and not posted here first and i'm still going to call them i just assumed they weren't open on sunday... when you shoddily package something and include mismatched parts that is just negligent. now, even if they are willing to make it right, i'm going to have to repackage the items, ship them back, wait for him to ship me more, and waste a load of time an effort on my part for him to make this right...

i never said he didn't manufacture his own stuff. do you people just read half of the post then make up whatever you want. again, if it were a genuine mistake i would have called them and not posted here first and i'm still going to call them i just assumed they weren't open on sunday... when you shoddily package something and include mismatched parts that is just negligent. now, even if they are willing to make it right, i'm going to have to repackage the items, ship them back, wait for him to ship me more, and waste a load of time an effort on my part for him to make this right...

what are you building a rolex?

jeezuz....you are going to weld and wheel it. or is this just for the mall?:shaking:

if i were paying discount prices, i wouldn't care about discount parts and service. when i'm paying premium prices (750.00), i expect things to be packaged well, not bashed off each other for 1500 miles, and i wouldn't expect to get mismatched items. there is no shortage of companies that do what ballistic does. at this point the only thing that makes them stand out in my mind from the rest of the group is poor packaging and a cobbled together order. and again, it wasn't like there was a simple mistake here. if they had accidentally included all right hand jam nuts or something, that's a mistake. this is just laziness. i understand you sticking up for them aaron, but would you be happy with an order like that from some other business? i'm going to call them, and i hope they are willing to do something, but what it comes down to is, this should have been right the first time. it's going to take my time, effort and money to let them make it right.

ben, learn to read. i never said the threads were different, in fact i said they would perform the same. look at the picture, if you can't see the difference you're an idiot. the outside profile is hardly even similar, not to mention you can see that both are beat up from shipping, which wrapping them in brown paper would have prevented. if you are going to sell dissimilar parts you need to notify the customer. as for posting here first. this wasn't an order mistake, someone gathered the parts then packed them in a box. they know what they shipped and that the packaging was shitty, again, no misunderstanding there. as for the misalignment spacers, i work at a cnc shop with lots of stainless, the biggest point there wasn't price, ridiculous might have been the wrong word. but who sells them individually? no one would ever buy a misalignment spacer singly.

look fuck stick if you work at a cnc shop why didn't you just make it all your self? Do you work in a job shop or a production shop?

I didn't read on the insert part thought you meant the threads were different I see the difference but since it's going to be welded and underneath your truck you sound like a whiny douche. Did you ask how many mis-alignment spacers you ordered? If you didn't I would assume it's your fault for ordering the wrong amount. On mis-alignments it is possible to damage one which would make it nice to order just one since they are the outrageous price of 7 dollars.

All and all I seriously think you are a whiny little bitch good luck on your build

-ben

WTF? You work in a machine shop and aren't making your own parts?

LOL, I know for a fact that there are at least three of us here who have the ability to make all or most of the parts you've whined about. And, we'd probably have them done in an afternoon, even me with my toy lathes! If I ever get my Clausing going, I'd be able to make all of the turned parts in a day!

As for the number of misalignment spacers, I'll bet that the guys at Ballistic are all scratching their heads over why you ordered a single one-LOL.

If you'd made your own parts, they'd all look the same and you wouldn't have anything to whine about!

PT

we are a repetative shop, slightly larger than a job shop. i don't run the place. i'd love to be able to make these at work, but that isn't an option. if you ran a shop would you want guys making a bunch of parts for themselves on your machines and making you no money while you paid their time? they don't appreciate that very much. every one of you know damn well if you got mismatched parts that were chewed up from crappy packaging you'd be pissed too. i'm not building a rolex, but i'm also not building a hacked up piece of shit.

we are a repetative shop, slightly larger than a job shop. i don't run the place. i'd love to be able to make these at work, but that isn't an option. if you ran a shop would you want guys making a bunch of parts for themselves on your machines and making you no money while you paid their time?

I have worked in similar shops. Each and every one of them was more than accommodating to allowing me (or anyone else) to do their own thing after hours or over lunch.

Allowing folks to do such things builds loyalty and skill.

so you came here and bitched before even talking to Ballastic? I really hate when people do that complain on the internet before letting the vendor deal with it.


They should have known better, having to deal with vendors to fix their fuck up is a hassle and any bad press they get is their own fault.

That image shows a poor quality product, poor packaging, and a lack of QC from ballistic.

I have worked in similar shops. Each and every one of them was more than accommodating to allowing me (or anyone else) to do their own thing after hours or over lunch.

Allowing folks to do such things builds loyalty and skill.

must have been nice. i actually work in the mills anyway, but we have a second shift, which is what i work, so there isn't really an "after hours". plus we try to keep our machines running most of the time, so there typically isn't a free machine to just jump on and do stuff. a lot of our parts have extensive fixtures and require a decent amount of setup. if i were in a little job shop it probably wouldn't be a problem, but that isn't the case.

"allowing folks to do such things builds loyalty and skill"

maybe you could call my boss and tell him that...i agree completely, but loyalty at my shop isn't a problem figuring the next newest employee to me has seven years there. and the skill thing is questionable. when i'm making 5000.00 parts for microwave radar units, some tubing inserts aren't building a whole lot of skill.

They should have known better, having to deal with vendors to fix their fuck up is a hassle and any bad press they get is their own fault.

That image shows a poor quality product, poor packaging, and a lack of QC from ballistic.

that's the point i've been trying to make. even if they fix this, which will take effort and time on my part, it shouldn't have happened. and everyone who called me a whiner knows they would be pissed if the same thing happened to them.

we are a repetative shop, slightly larger than a job shop. i don't run the place. i'd love to be able to make these at work, but that isn't an option. if you ran a shop would you want guys making a bunch of parts for themselves on your machines and making you no money while you paid their time? they don't appreciate that very much. every one of you know damn well if you got mismatched parts that were chewed up from crappy packaging you'd be pissed too. i'm not building a rolex, but i'm also not building a hacked up piece of shit.

yes I do let them run their own parts on their time just like Paul said and I don't work in a job shop either I run fab in a OEM for evaporative coolers. No I don't pay them but I do let them use any of the machines they are qualified to run on their time. Maybe you need a better boss.

-ben

a lot of our parts have extensive fixtures and require a decent amount of setup.


As you work second shift, your access to the tool room machinery ought to be even greater. Tool room machinery rarely has fixtures/setups due to the different, one-off work most tool rooms do. Have you asked about access to tool room machinery during off-hours?

Your off-hours might also coincide with the off-hours for the tool room and, who knows, just maybe somebody might see this as willing to work harder to learn more and you might even move up in the organization.

Just my two cents from having worked in machine shops/factories with machining requirements and working in management in factories.

As you work second shift, your access to the tool room machinery ought to be even greater. Tool room machinery rarely has fixtures/setups due to the different, one-off work most tool rooms do. Have you asked about access to tool room machinery during off-hours?

Your off-hours might also coincide with the off-hours for the tool room and, who knows, just maybe somebody might see this as willing to work harder to learn more and you might even move up in the organization.

Just my two cents from having worked in machine shops/factories with machining requirements and working in management in factories.

i appreciate the advice. we don't have a devoted tool room. if i need a fixture for a new setup, i make it on the mill that the setup is for. same goes for lathe tooling. we also have very few manual lathes, they just aren't necessary.

on another note, i called Ballistic about an hour ago. boy, they sure bent over backwards to make things right...when i told the person on the phone about the tubing inserts, he explained about the new style, and still have the old style in the left hand...blah blah. that part was easy to figure out. when i said that the profiles were drastically different as were the lengths he told me that once seated in the tubing the lengths were the same...wow, he really knows his product line, because the overall length difference is 1/16th of an inch, but once seated the length difference from the fillet for the weld to the end is even bigger, about 1/8th of an inch, to that he responded "oh". when i told him that there is a print on the website and it doesn't match the left handed inserts i got and at the very least a customer should be notified about a difference in parts that should be the same he said "oh". his only solution was that i could wait until they ran the new style and i could exchange them...for all i know they have 200 of the old style left. i then told him that the rod ends and tubing adapters should have been wrapped in packaging paper b/c by the time they got to pennsylvania they were all beat up. again i got "oh". i have an idea, how about free shipping on my next order to make up for your incompetence? maybe a 10% discount on my next order?...or, you could just tell me "oh". i ordered the rest of my misalignment spacers, and that will likely be the last order i place with ballistic, nor could i really recommend them to anyone else.

Oh.

wow i'm surprise to hear this. Ballistic served me extremely well. Everything was package well and came perfect. Everything I order was exactly what I wanted and they put up with me calling in daily to change the order.

I ordered tube inserts as well as DOM sleeves, and rod ends over the summer with no problems from ballistics and had no problems, ordered them all the way from DE.

Your off-hours might also coincide with the off-hours for the tool room and, who knows, just maybe somebody might see this as willing to work harder to learn more and you might even move up in the organization


I was a machinist for a few years and while they had no problem with us doing our own stuff at lunch and after hours, I can't criticize him for just buying premade stuff. Its just easier that way then to have to order small volumes of material (at least where I worked, EVERYTHING was some stainless or really exotic alloy) and the lunch time setup and teardown always made me feel rushed so stuff ended up looking crappier than it should have.

I did manage to get a 609 plus jig machined before I quit, though it sits in a storage shed unwelded. And while I trust my manual threading ability for most stuff (including tapered threads for low pressure gas applications) steering is magical, I'll let someone else take the liability

I don't know why you guys are argueing about this. He clearly works in a production shop which is much different than a Fab or prototype shop. A busy production shop will spend thousands to get 10 seconds out of a part and never shut off a machine.

It's not uncommon for a shop to never let anyone do personal work. It's also not uncommon to have a fab shop with open machines that anyone can mess with. I've seen hundreds of shops and there is no rule on this.

I don't know why you guys are argueing about this. He clearly works in a production shop which is much different than a Fab or prototype shop. A busy production shop will spend thousands to get 10 seconds out of a part and never shut off a machine.

It's not uncommon for a shop to never let anyone do personal work. It's also not uncommon to have a fab shop with open machines that anyone can mess with. I've seen hundreds of shops and there is no rule on this.

yeah, we aren't really a production shop, we don't do big runs, but we're not a job shop because we rely on repeat jobs, in the manufacturing engineering field we'd be called a repetitive shop. if a machine isn't running, it isn't making money.

anyway this is all off topic. the topic was, ballistic is worthless...

this is not the only forum he comes bitching in...i don't think any vendor could make him happy.

just one of those guys.


not happy with your product? sorry.


from your douchy attitude, i wouldn't want to help you either.:shaking:


sorry spork, its not that i hate you or anything, it is just that jeff at ballistic is a very good friend. i have worked closely with him and i have personally seen him jump through fire hoops to help people out.

you are pretty alone in your complaints about ballistic. and now you want to come here and try to trash his buisiness.

the end of the debate is that you brought this public before you ever called them.

i am sure your posts have been read there, and judging by the responses here, no one is listening to you anyway. you could have looked like the good guy, but instead you wanted to draw us all into your personal drama.

you are flaming ballistic like daniel at usa6x6, and i don't think you are going to get the lynching posse you expected.

yeah, we aren't really a production shop, we don't do big runs, but we're not a job shop because we rely on repeat jobs, in the manufacturing engineering field we'd be called a repetitive shop. if a machine isn't running, it isn't making money.

anyway this is all off topic. the topic was, ballistic is worthless...
go somewhere else then.

the truth is that you probably let your parts rattle around on the garage floor with the cats playing with them.

how do i know this? why would yours be the only order at ballistic packaged that way?

i am in this shop at least every other week and the packaging is always done well and appropriately.

the inserts and other hardware is either in the chinese finger cuff stuff or it is put in a heat sealed plastic bag.

then the peanuts and then parts with more peanuts.

i think you are full of crap.

the end of the debate is that you brought this public before you ever called them.


Why? They sent him shit, they are expected to send it out correctly the first time. He can bash them all he wants and still expect them to "make it right," he is the customer.

When did it become acceptable to not have an internal quality control system? And when did it become acceptable as a consumer to have to do follow ups with vendors on off the shelf parts? This many screw ups in one order shouldn't ever happen, those parts don't match, they were not packaged properly, and they should have contacted him on the misalignment washer issue to verify he only needed one.

i'm not saying anything about ballistic that isn't the truth. if you're 1 of the 99 customers whose orders were correct and packaged nicely, great. if you're the 100th person and got shit then the other 99 don't really matter. maybe i shouldn't have posted here first, but i called them, wasn't whiny or confrontational and the rep. i talked to was indifferent and didn't really want to do anything to make it right. his indifferent tone of voice didn't change until i told him i needed more misalignment spacers.

edit*

the misalignment spacers were in the expandable cuff, the brackets were wrapped with shrink rap, the jam nuts were in heat sealed bags. all of those were fine. the tubing inserts were screwed on the rod ends, and they were on top of everything and were not wrapped in anything. packing peanuts were not going to stop 1 lb. rod ends with inserts from rolling all over in the box. when i called today, i didn't ask them to send me parts with no marks, i said "i'm sure they will still work just fine, but they should have been wrapped up to prevent them from being bashed off of each other during shipping." instead of them saying, "yeah, sorry," which would have made me happy, i got "oh". and yeah, between friday when fedex delivered them and sunday when i open the box, i rolled them all over the shop and drove over them and threw them at rocks...get a life. i've ordered from half a dozen PBB vendors and had smooth transactions and haven't bitched about any of them. as for the inserts, there is a dimensioned print on the website with the listing for the insert. when i look at the dimensioned print, then order them, i expect them to look like the print. that isn't expecting too much. i had to call up and add jam nuts to the order because i forgot them originally, so they even could have told me about the inserts then since nothing had shipped yet. i admire you for defending a friend, but i didn't do anything wrong, these were mistakes on ballistic's part. you still haven't answered the question aaron, if you got mismatched banged up parts from a vendor you hadn't ordered from before and didn't know personally, wouldn't you be disappointed?

yes, yes i would.

i realize that you did not talk to jeff. that is not your fault, he has to babysit 3 cnc machines while the minions do the other stuff.

the minions are who you talked to on the phone and being an employee, he may not have the same motivation to keep you happy as the owner.

mr spork you should get your order fixed. it should indeed feel like christmas when you open the package.

what would make you happy here? this is not a sarcastic question, in all seriousness what would make you have a warm fuzzy with ballistic?

money back? replacement parts? or a simple apology?

i don't have much pull, but i can call and make a suggestion to the RIGHT person.

i'll be completely honest a simple "i'm sorry" would suffice. a 10% discount on the rest of the misalignment spacers i just ordered today (which would be about 9.00) would really convince me that they were worried about keeping their customers happy. it's just a good gesture. i'd like to be able to order from them in the future, so i don't want bitter feelings on either end.

fair enough.


i am sorry. will talk to jeff. no promises.:)

well because of some money and time issues it looks like the axles won't be going under the disco until the spring. in the mean time i've decided to finish up some other inevitable upgrades. my wrangler NW 200 amp alternator should be here this week. 105 amps at idle sounds nice. i also ordered an astrovan hydroboost today. instead of pissing with the stock power steering pump i'm also going to order a PSC power steering pump (97-05 TJ pump if i'm not mistaken) and one of their seven rib pulleys so I don't have to modify my belt at all. the pulley is actually for a late model v8 equipped jeep. this should fix a lot of the little land rover issues and give me a good base for when I do swap the axles. i'm thinking after the flares are on i will probably just put the stock springs back in for the winter.

well because of some money and time issues it looks like the axles won't be going under the disco until the spring. in the mean time i've decided to finish up some other inevitable upgrades. my wrangler NW 200 amp alternator should be here this week. 105 amps at idle sounds nice. i also ordered an astrovan hydroboost today. instead of pissing with the stock power steering pump i'm also going to order a PSC power steering pump (97-05 TJ pump if i'm not mistaken) and one of their seven rib pulleys so I don't have to modify my belt at all. the pulley is actually for a late model v8 equipped jeep. this should fix a lot of the little land rover issues and give me a good base for when I do swap the axles. i'm thinking after the flares are on i will probably just put the stock springs back in for the winter.What model/year Jeep takes that 7 rib pulley?

Wow, who fired up the grill in here? :eek:

From my personal experience, "spork" is extremely easy to work with, very knowledgeable, and pleasant. To date, the only person ordering axles with 32'nds of an inch measurements. Some folks dont have time, or dont want to work with used parts, and want to start fresh, or just want to do things differently.

lol, i see you found the build-up thread Brian. the thread took a bad turn before i even ordered any parts...people get scared when you want to do something different...oh well, it's my truck. thanks for the support and all the help when ordering everything.

Roxtar, here is the link for the pulley. it doesn't list a model or year, just says "late model V8 equipped Jeep vehicles"

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/product_info.php?cPath=157_50&products_id=510

i think it's cool what your doing... but I still think its a big waste for 35s ;P

fair enough, i think an atlas is cool, but a big waste behind a rover tranny. and for the 20th time, i'm running the 35's because i have them and they are basically new. this setup allows me to go bigger without breaking things or replacing everything later.

That is going to be a sweet rig when you get it finished! Your axles alone cost more than my entire series hybrid is going to cost me. WOW. gordo

God bless student loan money.

no tech, just a picture.

what spring rates did u get?

no tech, just a picture.

Sweet! Is that a Pilot G2? I used to have a coulpe of those.

-Jeff

Sweet! Is that a Pilot G2? I used to have a coulpe of those.

-Jeff

Excuse me which JSBriggs is speaking. Of the multifaceted individual that he is. The conservative JSB, The vindictive JSB, The lazy JSB, The all knowing JSB, The contemplating JSB, The Hollywood JSB, The lame duck JSB, The naughty JSB, The East Coast JSB. The West Coast JSB------etc......


I could go on and on, and probably will before we are done discussing the size of------------those big socks.

JP

Excuse me which JSBriggs is speaking. Of the multifaceted individual that he is. The conservative JSB, The vindictive JSB, The lazy JSB, The all knowing JSB, The contemplating JSB, The Hollywood JSB, The lame duck JSB, The naughty JSB, The East Coast JSB. The West Coast JSB------etc......


I could go on and on, and probably will before we are done discussing the size of------------those big socks.

JP

Hell Pendy, do you even know what I'm referring to? :flipoff2:

-Jeff

Sweet! Is that a Pilot G2? I used to have a coulpe of those.

-Jeff

i'm impressed. that one sure is a beauty. i've got 4 of those bad boys ready to rock. the extended length is about 5.5 inches and the compressed length is about the same because the top pops out under compression. not sure on the spring rate. there is zero rebound or compression dampening for laser quick response. the resevoir is interesting in design as it has a hole in it and is open to the atmosphere.


oh, and that roundish metal thing beside the pen is a 14 inch travel king coilover...the bottom spring is a 16 inch 250# the top is a 14 inch 200#. they are just a starting point, we'll see how they work.

WOW! So thats what a coilover looks like. Good thing I took the time to read this thread or I would have never known.

thats awesome...you could have 5 coilovers for the price of two!

i guess if i had your money, i would burn mine...:flipoff2:

thats awesome...you could have 5 coilovers for the price of two!

i guess if i had your money, i would burn mine...:flipoff2:

maybe you didn't read this one when i origionally posted it:

14" coilover resevoir 210.00
dual rate hardware 25.00
high temp. seals 15.00
billet cap 15.00
blue springs 75.00
second spring 75.00
total: 415.00 (451.00 with eibach springs)

price for king: 580.00

so, two kings were 1160.00 (free shipping)
four f-o-a's would be 1800.00, plus probably 100.00 worth of shipping.

besides the already mentioned items in the spring thread which i won't reiterate, the F-O-A shocks use an admittedly less technologically advanced piston. this is a quote from chris "The biggest internal difference between our shocks and the competition is in the piston design. Those guys all have the latest/greatest in pistons...no doubt. Our design is a few years old."

let's face it, they don't have the testing, money, or resources to provide the research and development that king has. the extra money i paid was for a better coilover shock. if you want to run F-O-A shocks then go for it, i don't. i have to give chris credit for getting the word out on F-O-A shocks, but some of the stuff he has said i still have to question a bit. he has to be careful that his advertising doesn't seem pompous or claim ridiculous things. here was another quote from chris:

One of our customers bought some of our reservoir shocks to replace his FOX bypass shocks on his Titan. (something about thieves?)
I asked him how our shocks are comparing to the Fox bypass he had on before, here's his reply...

"I was surprised that the FOAs felt and handle better than my bypasses did. I still need to valve them for a bit less compression. I was at Razor road riding MX last weekend, I put the FOAs to the whoop test, and they sucked them up better then my FOXs did. I will be going to Dumont Dunes in 2 weeks and will try to get some suspension vids of the whooped out section and a few jumps."

umm. sorry, either the guy who said that was a liar, or an idiot. and clearly didn't have the fox shocks tuned correctly. as much as i think the F-O-A is a quality shock, i don't know that too many people are going to believe that it outperformed a properly tuned fox bypass shock.

WOW! So thats what a coilover looks like. Good thing I took the time to read this thread or I would have never known.

wait, that's a coilover shock...f*ck, the guy told me it was a muffler that would make my land rover sound like a 5000 HP honda civic.

Probably the ink pen or some other Wheres Waldo item in the background.

You back on your lithium?:flipoff2:

naw, i was talking about the ads coilovers made here in tucson. same shock, cheaper price.

but what ever your money. they are nice shocks.

do you have the diamonds built yet? pics? did i miss that?

in all honesty if i wanted 8 year old shock technology, i'd have bought a set of 8 year old king shocks. if you want to buy FOA, ADS, or POS shocks, then buy them.
they axles are about half assembled, no brackets welded on yet since i only decided to run coilovers a few weeks ago. i was deciding whether to put them in this winter or wait until spring. my garage got concrete this year, but no insulation yet, so it's a little chilly.

i have to give chris credit for getting the word out on F-O-A shocks, but some of the stuff he has said i still have to question a bit. he has to be careful that his advertising doesn't seem pompous or claim ridiculous things. here was another quote from chris:

One of our customers bought some of our reservoir shocks to replace his FOX bypass shocks on his Titan. (something about thieves?)
I asked him how our shocks are comparing to the Fox bypass he had on before, here's his reply...

"I was surprised that the FOAs felt and handle better than my bypasses did. I still need to valve them for a bit less compression. I was at Razor road riding MX last weekend, I put the FOAs to the whoop test, and they sucked them up better then my FOXs did. I will be going to Dumont Dunes in 2 weeks and will try to get some suspension vids of the whooped out section and a few jumps."

umm. sorry, either the guy who said that was a liar, or an idiot. and clearly didn't have the fox shocks tuned correctly. as much as i think the F-O-A is a quality shock, i don't know that too many people are going to believe that it outperformed a properly tuned fox bypass shock.

Don't be an ass Spork. I don't make stuff up or lie about it, I have no reason to, nor do I want to try to keep up with a pack of lies. That was a direct quote from one of my customers, plain and simple. Whether or not his Fox's were tuned correctly isn't my problem. He was just stating how happy he was with the shocks he purchased from us.
I'm glad you made a purchase you are happy with. Don't talk shit about everyone else because they didn't make the same decision as you.

Don't be an ass Spork. I don't make stuff up or lie about it, I have no reason to, nor do I want to try to keep up with a pack of lies. That was a direct quote from one of my customers, plain and simple. Whether or not his Fox's were tuned correctly isn't my problem. He was just stating how happy he was with the shocks he purchased from us.
I'm glad you made a purchase you are happy with. Don't talk shit about everyone else because they didn't make the same decision as you.


Its what he does. Stick a spork in it.

can't quite put my finger on it...sporks e-persona is very abrasive for some reason.

anybody else with a set of kings i would be like, "cool you got some kings, those are nice".

with spork, something about it just seethes with pretense.

spork, if you want to build a bling-sco just do it. but don't pretend you "needed" superior performing shocks.

when you are hitting the whoops at about 70mph, for hours on end, i will believe you.

disco 2 is not a trophy truck.

whatever...

Don't be an ass Spork. I don't make stuff up or lie about it, I have no reason to, nor do I want to try to keep up with a pack of lies. That was a direct quote from one of my customers, plain and simple. Whether or not his Fox's were tuned correctly isn't my problem. He was just stating how happy he was with the shocks he purchased from us.
I'm glad you made a purchase you are happy with. Don't talk shit about everyone else because they didn't make the same decision as you.

i knew it would only be a matter of time till we heard from you. what did i make up? what lie am i telling? the only thing i said is that your shocks are not equal to a fox bypass shock. would you say that they are?

i'm sorry, the guy who made that comment was a liar or an idiot. what lie am i spreading there? you clearly spend lots of time trolling pirate to find F-O-A comments, and then pad the posts with F-O-A advertising. i'm glad the guy was happy with his shocks, and i'm not telling anyone that your shocks are bad, or not to buy them. but you probably should have kept his comment to yourself, because it only detracts from your credibility.

can't quite put my finger on it...sporks e-persona is very abrasive for some reason.

anybody else with a set of kings i would be like, "cool you got some kings, those are nice".

with spork, something about it just seethes with pretense.

spork, if you want to build a bling-sco just do it. but don't pretend you "needed" superior performing shocks.

when you are hitting the whoops at about 70mph, for hours on end, i will believe you.

disco 2 is not a trophy truck.

whatever...

now i'm pretentious because i chose to buy a quality items? i think you're running out of things to not like about me. i'm very hurt that you don't like my personality as well....:flipoff2: i don't think king advertises their 2.5 prerunner coilover as being a trophy truck shock. why is it that so many competition rock crawlers and rock racers use them? they aren't "hitting the whoops at 70mph"? so i chose a nice shock, why are you getting so bothered by it? just b/c i didn't buy the shock you wanted me to?

motochris comes into every post on pirate about shocks to advertise for F-O-A and i'm abrasive...? then he comes in here all butt hurt. the only person i bad mouthed was the guy who thought the F-O-A shocks performed better than his Fox bypass shocks...maybe they did, that doesn't mean it's a superior shock. i realize chris is not necessarily claiming the F-O-A shocks as superior, but the whole thing sounds stupid. so the idiot didn't have his shocks tuned right, what does that prove about yours? when the price difference is roughly 1/5 the price, why wouldn't i opt for current technology as opposed to technology that is "a few years old"?

i don't have loads of money, i have a son, and a daughter on the way. like i said before, i'm doing most of this with student loan money. i'm just choosing to do it right the first time. absolutely none of the things i've purchased or suggested are unreasonable. i'm supporting lots of 4x4 vendors so they stay in business and we can all continue to enjoy the sport.

i am sure i like you. it is an internet identity thing. i have a hard time actually being myself here too.

on the web i think i am a big bad ass, and i get my card pulled a lot. so i have had to tone it down, because that is not my personality.

Spork, I hate to burst your bubble, but if those are the pre-runner series Kings, which due to the price I beleive they are, they aren't really any different from a FOA, same seals, mostly the same internals, the onle real difference is the fine threads on the body vs the big ACME threads and the billet ends instead of die-cast, other than that, same shock. The one weak-point to the FOAs vs Kings I can see is that FOA has a limited number of valving options, makes it simpler to get a truck bassicly set up, but hard to get it really fine tuned, though I heard you can use King shims and even their seals in a FOA, so that all may be a moot point. It's the race series Kings that have the new bling pistons that make them better than a FOA, and yes I've had them both apart on the same work-bench and yes the race series and pre-runner series are a very different shock. But Kings are more bling-bling harness the gnarness bro-tastic than any other shock on the market. Sorry for jumping in just to bash you, but you need to do a little more reading before you start calling out a company for producing an "inferior" product, especially when you bought a shock that is 95% the same, but paid nearly a lot more for it, if you bought the Kings just because you wanted Kings, then say that and you don't have to justify your decision, but when you say a project is being built a certain way due to budget constraints, then go buy the most expensive C/Os you can find and dismiss a cost effective solution without really looking into it, looks a little rediculous. Before you say it, no I don't care if the Kings have a 1020 DOM body and the FOAs are 1026, or what the rockwell hardness is of the shaft.

That said, supposing any building actually happens in the near future this should be an interesting build.

i knew it would only be a matter of time till we heard from you. what did i make up? what lie am i telling? the only thing i said is that your shocks are not equal to a fox bypass shock. would you say that they are?

i'm sorry, the guy who made that comment was a liar or an idiot. what lie am i spreading there? you clearly spend lots of time trolling pirate to find F-O-A comments, and then pad the posts with F-O-A advertising. i'm glad the guy was happy with his shocks, and i'm not telling anyone that your shocks are bad, or not to buy them. but you probably should have kept his comment to yourself, because it only detracts from your credibility.

Read my post again. I didn't say you made anything up or lied about anything. I said I didn't. You implied I WAS with this comment...
....he has to be careful that his advertising doesn't seem pompous or claim ridiculous things. .

Read Max's post above, he's right on the money.

But Kings are more bling-bling harness the gnarness bro-tastic than any other shock on the market..........but you need to do a little more reading before you start calling out a company for producing an "inferior".........but paid nearly a lot more for it, if you bought the Kings just because you wanted Kings....

i don't even know what that first sentence means. i know the king shocks are kind of bling. they are an extremely nice looking shock. maybe that's one reason people are willing to pay a little extra for them. i don't think they are really any more bling that a set of FOX shocks which i think are probably even more overrated. i never called F-O-A shocks inferior...ever...however, they are not in the same class as FOX and King shocks, sorry. the F-O-A wasn't a shock that was designed from the ground up, it was basically copied from the design of other shocks...in the history of shocks, the Kings probably were too, but they've had years and years worth of research and development since then. as for "doing my reading" chris is the one who said they had an old piston design. until someone posts pictures of a King pre-runner piston and a F-O-A piston i can only go by what's written. "paid nearly a lot more for it" hmm, a bit cryptic. i paid basically 160.00 more not counting the shipping per shock which would have been probably 35-40 and was free on the Kings. not a lot more in the scheme of things, especially for a shock that has been around for as long as it has. i guess that extra 130.00 or so was for the 5% difference as you said. and i wanted King shocks.

Read my post again. I didn't say you made anything up or lied about anything. I said I didn't. You implied I WAS with this comment...

Read Max's post above, he's right on the money.

no, i implied that the guy who sent you the msg lied or made something up. i think you guys are making a quality shock. your prices are very competitive. i think people are going to tend to go with something that's been around a lot longer for the time being.

now my harsh e-opinion. do you see anyone from King, Fox, or SAW trolling the forums posting in every thread about shocks? answering peoples questions is one thing. feeling the need to post in every thread where the name F-O-A has been typed is annoying. you have definitely broken into the market. let people run the shocks for awhile, and if they're happy, they'll come back and say that and recommend the product to others as some have already done.

Ohhh, shocks, and all this time I thought this is what Pendy was talking about whenever he mentions socks.:eek:

-Jeff

i don't even know what that first sentence means.

Sorry, you mite have to live in SoCal to understand that one, all the bros (go to flatbiller.com to learn more about that) love Kings, and most will slap King stickers on their trucks even if they're running Pro-Craps to look cooler.

As for the pistons, here you go http://www.dezertrangers.com/vb/showthread.php?t=61097&highlight=FOA+piston. The FOAs are an older design, but so are the King/Fox/Bilstien/SAWs, the coil-over just hasn't been changed much in the last decade, the only real inovations have been larger diameter, there's rumor of a 7.0 C/O being designed by one of the trophy truck teams. The only real inovative shocks out there are the Ricors, the Bilstien Black Hawks are something different, but the basic design has been around for years, they are just doing something new and unique with the manufacturing. Robby Gordon shocks are kinda cool, but the only difference between his and a normal bypass, is that he uses internal tubes and a solid piston. Fox, King and SAW are making larger and larger diameter shocks, but the design has been the same for years, they just keep scaling them up. But hey, like you said, you wanted Kings, so you bought Kings and that's all there is to it. All shocks perform about the same, especialy when they're just sitting in the garage:flipoff2:

All shocks perform about the same, especialy when they're just sitting in the garage:flipoff2:

there lies the only legitimate problem with this build.

As for the pistons, here you go http://www.dezertrangers.com/vb/showthread.php?t=61097&highlight=FOA+piston.

those pictures clearly show little difference in piston technology. i was only going by the info chris posted and assumed he was comparing the F-O-A shock to their competition, the prerunner shocks, and not the race series shocks which they clearly aren't competing with.

however, looking at the pictures, which piston would you rather have?

the one that works and costs less...
:D

the one that works and costs less...
:D

which is i guess why some people buy harbor freight tools...:flipoff2:

which is i guess why some people buy harbor freight tools...:flipoff2:

So not being from the US, how does harbor freight compare to Craftsman?

the old craftsman (not sure on a date, probably anything pre-1980's) is great. the current crapsman stuff is only marginally better than harbor freight. mostly because you can still take craftsman stuff back and exchange it.

i am still using most of my harbor fright stuff. tools are like anything else. there are some things you have to spend money on and other things that dont need to be pricey.

8bucks for an angle grinder is appropriate. but if you need a torque wrench, then you need to visit the mac truck. (or your bling of pref).

my lathe is a jet. and it is 30 years old and still runs great and it is chinese crap.

it ain't no south bend, but boy does it work well. i grew up with it and now my dad has given it to me. he upgraded to a 14x48, jet also.

i have a milwaukee and a hitachi angle grinder and i wouldn't trade either one for a thousand harbor freight power tools. yes, the habor freight grinders will still spin a grinding wheel, but they have crap bearings which makes them noisier, vibrate more, and not last as long. and have a much lower amperage rating which equals less torque. i can bog down my 12 amp rated milwaukee, i'd hate to think how slowly i'd have to go with a 5-8 amp generic grinder.

as far as the lathe, if you aren't doing precision work, aren't taking heavy cuts, and don't mind the lathe being louder then a chinese lathe will do fine. i've worked with lots of different quality levels of machine tools. we just got some new lathes at school "American Turnmasters"...made in taiwan i believe. they are noiser than quality american made lathes, they vibrate, and although everything is tight now, they will wear much quicker. i use them all the time, right now you could hold a tolerance of probably .0002". in 8 years you'll be lucky if they hold .002". if all you're ever going to do is make spacers and tube inserts then you'll be fine. single point threading on chinese machines can also be a "trying" experience.

Apart from the diff voltage, I bet we get the same power tools here just under different names.
We've got the same voltage and plugs as china so we get all the quality.