The Sierra Trek is the major funding for CA4WDC.
Because it Trek is cancelled CA4WDC will lose a bucket of money.
Let’s show our support and refuse your refund for the 2007 Sierra Trek.
On top of that let’s donate what we can to CA4WDC to help keep our trails open.

I have been wheeling for over 33 years and just starting concerning myself with land issues.

The more I surf/read/listen the angrier I have become.
Sure I heard the people talking about it, sure I showed concern, but I never did anything.

I was a member of CA4WDC, FOTR, and a local 4WD club and thought that was good.

Well I hate to say I have been the IDOIT with my head in the sand.
Last week I joined the BlueRibbon Coalition and donated money.
Last week I donated to FOTR, CA4WDC, bought t-shirts, stickers and donated to Del Albright.

I am not a wealthy person and my wife is always concerned with my jeep habit.
I work hard for my money and would much rather be spending what money I have on jeep parts, (Heck I am still running a D30 in the front with 35” tires and a V8) but I see this is very important and I cannot keep wishing it will go away.

So I ask each of you to donate what you can before it is too late.
Because if we do not donate now later will be too late.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

I hope you pass this along to anyone that enjoys the great outdoors.

Bob

Done deal. I'll buy a few more shirts while I'm at it.

If you haven't joined CA4WDC at least do that. You get some stickers and a monthly magazine.

How much was it supposed to cost?

I didn't sign up for the Trek, but with the heat rising, I am ready to send $$$.

I for one welcome you guys and Gal's. Supporting BRC,Cal4 and others only help us all. There are some meetings coming up that we can use your support at. Get involved and do what you can!!! Doing nothing hurts us all.

Agian Welcome

How much was it supposed to cost?

I didn't sign up for the Trek, but with the heat rising, I am ready to send $$$.

I dont know what the total is, depends on the runs you signed up for. Just send in what $ you can, also join all the access groups you can. :grinpimp:

The cost was $160.00 per person for Adults and $40.00 for Children.

So let me get this straight. You want to donate more money to an orginization whose mission is to keep trails open. Because they failed to keep 'the' trail open that mattered the most to their bottom line.


Just want to check the facts.

So let me get this straight. You want to donate more money to an orginization whose mission is to keep trails open. Because they failed to keep 'the' trail open that mattered the most to their bottom line.


Just want to check the facts.


glad I am not the only A-hole that had that same thought.

So let me get this straight. You want to donate more money to an orginization whose mission is to keep trails open. Because they failed to keep 'the' trail open that mattered the most to their bottom line.


Just want to check the facts.

I think based on the nature of the conditions currently in the TNF, they had to make a decision. The fact that the fire the TNF had was so devastating recently, they decided that the lives of people were more important than the event itself. What do you think the reaction would be if a fire broke out during the event and there was a catastropic loss of life?? How would you feel?

So let me get this straight. You want to donate more money to an orginization whose mission is to keep trails open. Because they failed to keep 'the' trail open that mattered the most to their bottom line.


Just want to check the facts.

Not to start a flaming war, but this is just what the greenies love, for us to give up and stay home.

I really hoped to keep this thread on the positive side to support our cause.

I am glad I do not think like you, oh shit CA4WDC blew it so forget about them.

Along your train of thought you must not donate to anything.

I say this because we are losing trails right and left and any organizations fighting these battles is losing.

Sorry, but more money is what it is going to take to fight these battles and I and my freinds are giving all we can!

glad I am not the only A-hole that had that same thought.

Nope, you're not the only A-hole. I do what I can for them, but they (the higher ups through the years) have really burned their bridge with many of us from this part of Cali. I'll go to their web site and sign up my 4x4 business to help out. This type of problem along with a solution should have been thought about years ago. I mean, no one is donating to my business because a special order trailer was not taken by a customer.

So let me get this straight. You want to donate more money to an orginization whose mission is to keep trails open. Because they failed to keep 'the' trail open that mattered the most to their bottom line.


Just want to check the facts.

Dave, I know how hard you guys work and how much you all contribute to the cause. Cal 4wheel does more that you know. It's really counter productive to cast doubt on a good organization without having all the facts.

It's in a case like this that it is vital we give the benefit of the doubt, not the other way around.

We can all argue all we want, it won't change the decisions of Cal 4wd or the USFS this year.

What we can do is become more united, and not let what has happened cause more dissension in the ranks.

How many wake up calls do we all need before we realize we have to sync up and pull together to preserve our rights to enjoy public lands.

Not to start a flaming war, but this is just what the greenies love, for us to give up and stay home.

The last thing I'm doing is staying home.

I've chaired an event for two of the last four years that has raised and donated over 50k directly to keeping trails open. We also pulled some 20 odd tons of garbage off of the trails while we were doing it.

I am extremely frustrated by the inability of the various 'action' groups to work together. Everyone wants to be 'the man', instead of being a part of the winning team.

As far fueling the 'greenies' by questioning our own... deal with it. I'll be damned if I'm going to blindly donate money to an orginization that has all but completley ignored the entire southern half of the state. I was told directly by Ed Reed that both Surprise Canyon and Johnson Valley were both areas that Cal4Wheel did not see the need to be a part of.

Great, so they focused on Fordyce. I've got no problem with that. But when you fail to succeed in the one place that you're focusing on. That's an issue.

As far as this event starting a masssive forest fire.

The event can't start a fire. Irresponsible people doing Irresponsible things can. Cal4Wheel 'HAD' the opportunity to effect positive change.

They dropped the ball. AGAIN.

As far as this event starting a masssive forest fire.

The event can't start a fire. Irresponsible people doing Irresponsible things can. Cal4Wheel 'HAD' the opportunity to effect positive change.

They dropped the ball. AGAIN.Out of 1500 people or so, all it takes is one irresponsible person to toss out a lit cigarette and who will the finger and lawsuits point at??...............CA4wheeldrive. I think it is more of a safety issue than anything else. Maybe I'm missing something as I don't know the politics if any behind the scene.

Nope, you're not the only A-hole. I do what I can for them, but they (the higher ups through the years) have really burned their bridge with many of us from this part of Cali.
They have burned bridges, but dang it, this is OUR organization. We are 4-wheelers, and we are in CA/NV... if you disagree with something, then step up and get involved to change it.

I have a lot of respect for folks like Dave, Erik, and Aaron who aren't thrilled with Cal4... there are politics within it that *I* ain't thrilled with, either... but I'm committed to work with them, since there's no other state-level organization directed specifically at 4-wheelers. I think Dave nails the biggest problem -- most want to be top dog, and few are well-committed to working together to be part of the winning team. Look in the mirror (all of you) -- are *YOU* working together with others?

Randii

All valid points shared here... and just because you take exception to one organization does not mean you cannot support your favorite. Don't want to give your coin to CA4WD, then donate it to Tinman and Friends of Fordyce, or donate it directly to Del and Friends of the Rubicon. Don't want those, then donate to Blue Ribbon Coalition or the myriad of others that are out there.

I believe the point was, if you can afford it, use your registration fee productively.

Yes, we are all frustrated over the closure, but as an event chairman myself, I believe the team made the correct decision to cancel the event this year, regardless of the individual hardship it will certainly cause.

Lets stay safe, lets stay focused, lets stay involved, and most important of all, lets stay friends in our chosen sport.

I think based on the nature of the conditions currently in the TNF, they had to make a decision. The fact that the fire the TNF had was so devastating recently, they decided that the lives of people were more important than the event itself. What do you think the reaction would be if a fire broke out during the event and there was a catastropic loss of life?? How would you feel?

Calling Bullshit.

My friend and I both cut alot of firewood each year and are always looking for new areas ran this the last weekend it was open. On the way in, around the campground(meadow lake), and the entire way through the trail we were amazed at the ammount of uncut dead wood. A lot of it was fallen and more was prime to be felled.

So here is why I call Bullshit: If CA4WDC durring fire-risk times it should have gotten that cleaned up THIS SPRING or LAST FALL. They should be working with USFS, TNF, SPPC, and the other groups (Tinman's cleanup specifily asked us to bring our saws). The whole area is a tinderbox waiting to go, and the problem is very visable to anybody running the trail. A couple weeks before the event in the midst of fire season is not the time to start screwing around with this. So back to the above bread and butter remark....what are CA4WDC doing with the Sierra Trek money if they arent using it to keep the trails open and events running?

The fire that was mentioned was man-made and impacted a small populated area that the housing associations and TNF set up for failure by not allowing tree removal. The area residents mostly gave up the fight years ago and see what it's got them. The rule of thumb is clear 40 feet in every dirrection, most of those places couldnt clear 10 feet.

Calling Bullshit.

My friend and I both cut alot of firewood each year and are always looking for new areas ran this the last weekend it was open. On the way in, around the campground(meadow lake), and the entire way through the trail we were amazed at the ammount of uncut dead wood. A lot of it was fallen and more was prime to be felled.

So here is why I call Bullshit: If CA4WDC durring fire-risk times it should have gotten that cleaned up THIS SPRING or LAST FALL. They should be working with USFS, TNF, SPPC, and the other groups (Tinman's cleanup specifily asked us to bring our saws). The whole area is a tinderbox waiting to go, and the problem is very visable to anybody running the trail. A couple weeks before the event in the midst of fire season is not the time to start screwing around with this. So back to the above bread and butter remark....what are CA4WDC doing with the Sierra Trek money if they arent using it to keep the trails open and events running?

The fire that was mentioned was man-made and impacted a small populated area that the housing associations and TNF set up for failure by not allowing tree removal. The area residents mostly gave up the fight years ago and see what it's got them. The rule of thumb is clear 40 feet in every dirrection, most of those places couldnt clear 10 feet.

Okay, so what is your theory on why they cancelled thier biggest fundraiser of the year a month before the event. Just to thumb thier noses at the participant's?

Out of 1500 people or so, all it takes is one irresponsible person to toss out a lit cigarette and who will the finger and lawsuits point at??...............CA4wheeldrive. I think it is more of a safety issue than anything else. Maybe I'm missing something as I don't know the politics if any behind the scene.

Quick question... What if a forest fire would have broken out at last year's Sierra Trek?

Quick question... What if a forest fire would have broken out at last year's Sierra Trek?
What if? then there could of been a disaster then, and the year before and the year before, etc...... I don't think the CA4DC or the forest service paid much attention to the issue at hand til the recent fire. Am I missing something here? Do you not think that there will be a Sierra Trek next year if we have a wet winter?

Okay, so what is your theory on why they cancelled thier biggest fundraiser of the year a month before the event. Just to thumb thier noses at the participant's?


Maybe because they are ineffective at being advocates for public access to public lands.

Maybe because as stated before, too little was done too late to proactively protect the land.

And maybe, nothing could be done no matter how effective they are. The bottom line is, the goverments reaction to almost every situation they have faced is to limit access.

What if in lieu of Sierra Trek, we send the same number of people up there to truly maintain the trail, thereby mitigating the risk of destroying the resources.

That would take leadership. That would take sacrifice. That would take an eye for the greater good and not the greater bank account.

Out of 1500 people or so, all it takes is one irresponsible person to toss out a lit cigarette and who will the finger and lawsuits point at??...............CA4wheeldrive. I think it is more of a safety issue than anything else. Maybe I'm missing something as I don't know the politics if any behind the scene.

Well with your logic, what would make this year different than in any year's past? A forest fire could have happened easily last year, or the year before, or the year before, etc... It didn't..... Why would this year be any different? Because it's drier? I'm just not buying it...

What if? then there could of been a disaster then, and the year before and the year before, etc...... I don't think the CA4DC or the forest service paid much attention to the issue at hand til the recent fire. Am I missing something here? Do you not think that there will be a Sierra Trek next year if we have a wet winter?

So even though it's never happened before in the history of Sierra Trek (or the 55 years of Jeeper's Jamboree, for that matter) you're ok with the trail being closed and Trek getting cancelled because "we didn't have a wet winter" whenever the FS feels like it?

I'm not trying to bash Cal4Wheel here, I'm just tossing out the random thoughts I'm having... I'm pissed at the USFS, not Cal 4Wheel. But I will be donating my money to FOF and FOTR. :)

No, I am not okay with it but, I think the CA4dc was put between a rock and hard place by the forest service. I think if the Angora fire had not happened then, Sierra Trek would have gone off without any flak from the forest service whatsoever.

I'll keep my Cal4WD comments to myself................:mr-t:

If I was a paid participant and was ask to give the money back I would ask for a detailed list on what it would be used for.

I think its only fair to ask the right questions with request like this.

KC

Okay, so what is your theory on why they cancelled thier biggest fundraiser of the year a month before the event. Just to thumb thier noses at the participant's?

Here's the reasons why from the "cancellation notice we got:

" . . . Don Klusman, primarily, had several conversations with
various TNF officials concerning the requirements of a
fire plan for Sierra Trek, which would be a permitted
operation.

Among the items required by a fire plan were:

- Complete Inspection of each participant's vehicle
exhaust system.

- Each vehicle would be required to carry 10 gallons
of water.

- Each vehicle would be required to be equipped with a
5 lb ABC fire extinguisher.

- We would have to provide "trail walkers" who, at 2-3
hour intervals would inspect the trail for fires.

- We, in camp, would have several small issues
concerning the barbeque trailer and our ground-level
propane stoves

The major concern, of course, is for the trail,
itself.

Resultant impacts on the Trail Committee would
include:

- No welding (probably would result in vehicles being
left on the trail until replacement parts could be
procured, since we could not repair them enough to get
them off the trail - also, participants that have
welding capability would probably use their capability
to fix themselves and their freinds without letting us
know

- We would be inspecting vehicles for exhaust system
compliance - How many, especially older CJ's are
running headers with glass pack mufflers under the
rocker panels? - we would have to determine if they
have a legal spark-arresting exhaust system. In the
case of newer vehicles, we would have to assure that
the factory shields for the catalytic converters were
intact....Then comes the confrontation with the owner
when they are found non-compliant.

- The participants would have to bring their 10
gallons of water and the 5 lb ABC extinguisher. How
many would show up without one or both, regardless of
how well we publicized the requirement, and again, the
confrontation...

There is no guarantee, that if we moved forward and
created the fire plan, that the forest will not move
into stage III, which would close off the permitees.
Major nonrefundable monies were to be spent this week
for the purchase of the food ($30k) and T-shirts ($?).

If a fire should break out in the area, we would have
to evacuate 1000+ people, most likely leaving behind
RV's, etc.

If the fire would be caused by one of our
participants, we would be responsible for the cost of
the fire. Goodby, CA4WDC!

So, the decision was not lightly made to cut our
losses.

The anouncement is that Sierra Trek is cancelled by
mutual agreement with the Tahoe NF in the interest of
public safety and increasing fire danger.

. . . ."

If I was a paid participant and was ask to give the money back I would ask for a detailed list on what it would be used for.
I like this suggestion, actually, but I'd turn it around.

If you're donating money to ANY organization, don't be afraid to make it a DIRECTED DONATION. Tell them what you want it to be used for -- legal defense, work projects, mitigation, whatever.

I wrote a check to Trek for the event, with the event in mind. I'll be donating the same dollars back to Cal4 and directing that they be used on or around Fordyce Trail, or in defense thereof. It is a bit more of a pain in the butt for them to track, but instead of just getting the profit from my dollars, they get to use the whole thing for Fordyce. Seems like a great deal to me.

Randii

donating the same dollars back to Cal4 and directing that they be used on or around Fordyce Trail, or in defense thereof...instead of just getting the profit from my dollars, they get to use the whole thing for Fordyce. Seems like a great deal to me.

Randii

This is something my club is talking about doing, making a large donation but earmarking it for nor cal trails. I think it's a great idea.

This is something my club is talking about doing, making a large donation but earmarking it for nor cal trails. I think it's a great idea.

No need to worry about that... All the resources already go to the NorCal trails. At least that's the assumption because they certainly don't go to anything in SoCal.

This might be the topic of a whole new thread but (and I'm taking off my FOF hat here for a minute) my friends and clubmates have been asking this question for a number of years now.

When is new blood going to step up and bring their voice into the Cal organization. This is not a criticism of the current leadership. I for one believe these guys do care about access and off roaders in general but much has been said about Cal not keeping up with the times. I have been seriously thinking about getting more involved in the Cal organization (like I have the time :shaking:.) I am what many could consider and old timer having been involved in off roading for over 30 years. On the other hand I am relatively new to the level of involvement I now have in four wheeling. Previous to about 5 years ago it was all bikes baby! I have had my truck for 22 years. It started out bone stock and has evolved into what it is today. On the other hand (that makes three hands by the way) I can be considered by some to be the very kind of user that the traditional school of thought does not care for.

I am EXTREME! BBC Truggy, 42's, love to challenge myself. But I am responsible. I don't drive off trail, I use a Pett toilet and I truely care about the future of our trails and our access. I am 52 but I still like to Get It! I have always been that way and I always will.

The top guys in Cal have been around a long time and have done a lot of good and probably will continue to do so for a number of years to come.

What I'm saying is that if you think Cal needs to change then maybe you need to get in there and do some changing. There is room for the traditional Jeepers and driving style and the new wave of high performance 4x4's too. What doesn't have to change is the desire for the people driving these rigs to keep our trails open. The more people invloved in the battle for continued access the better. Look around at some of the threads in this forum and others. It's the drunks, off trail drivers and shiat on the rocks kind of guys that are the bad ones whatever their age and the rig they drive.

We are in a period of transition both in how we are allowed to use our public lands and the people that use them. Perhaps we should enter into a period of transition in the leadership of the organization that is trying to represent our best interests. We all need to work together to make this happen. New people need to be brought in and trained in the workings of groups like Cal before it is too late. I'd like to see a few younger people working together with the more experienced members of Cal and learn from them.

I think if you were involved in the inner workings of a group like Cal you would be blown away by the scope of what is going on behind the scenes.

Didn't vote in the last presidential election? Then don't criticize the President. Don't have anything to do with Cal and have never been to a Cal meeting? Then shut the fawk up.

These guys and gals are YOUR elected representatives and if you don't like what they are doing then get elected and try to do a better job.

Ok, I am putting my FOF hat back on now so you are not allowed to flame me in any way.:flipoff2:

No need to worry about that... All the resources already go to the NorCal trails. At least that's the assumption because they certainly don't go to anything in SoCal.
Dave, I disagree. John Stewart works hard for resource issues in Southern California -- I know he and others have been active in Mojave, Truckhaven, and Ocotillo Wells as well as working on the LMP for Angeles, Cleveland, Los Padres, and San Bernardino National Forests, and I know he's also active on the Coastal Commission, which is pretty uniquely Southern in flavor. He's freaking EVERYWHERE for Route Dez in most all CA and NV forests, and he still manages to work with BLM on Special Recreation Permits and cost recovery. I know for a fact that he was still working with BLM on the Surprise Canyon EIS, as well, because I have personally pumped him for information on that subject.

Dave, I respect that you don't see eye-to-eye with Cal4, but I suspect that this is a club thing. Look at the specifics, and you'll see that Cal4 represents you, whether you want 'em to or not. There are simply too, too many meetings for any of us to make them all -- we need state and national organizations to add to our own local efforts (and I know that the TinBenders kick ASS in their local efforts!).

If you don't like the way your state (or national!) representatives are moving, invite a rep out to a club meeting and make sure they know it!

Randii

Start a new thread, Bret -- I agree that this is much needed.

Cal4 is California's 4-wheeling organization, and if it doesn't adequately meet our needs as 4-wheelers, we need to get active and fix it.

Many good folks have served well in Cal4, but it is a bit old-school jeep oriented, and IMHO needs broader membership to effectively represent our varied community. Better relevance will lead to bigger membership will lead to a stronger voice and more effective representation... which will lead to even better relevance... repeat...

BTW, Brett -- you're my hero. :p I wanna be like you when I grow up. :flipoff2:

I like your challenge -- if you don't like it, then GET ACTIVE and change it! Money where my moth is, I'll say that I welcome that within FOTR and RTF, as well.

Randii

Dave, I disagree. John Stewart works hard for resource issues in Southern California -- I know he and others have been active in Mojave, Truckhaven, and Ocotillo Wells as well as working on the LMP for Angeles, Cleveland, Los Padres, and San Bernardino National Forests, and I know he's also active on the Coastal Commission, which is pretty uniquely Southern in flavor. He's freaking EVERYWHERE for Route Dez in most all CA and NV forests, and he still manages to work with BLM on Special Recreation Permits and cost recovery. I know for a fact that he was still working with BLM on the Surprise Canyon EIS, as well, because I have personally pumped him for information on that subject.

Dave, I respect that you don't see eye-to-eye with Cal4, but I suspect that this is a club thing. Look at the specifics, and you'll see that Cal4 represents you, whether you want 'em to or not. There are simply too, too many meetings for any of us to make them all -- we need state and national organizations to add to our own local efforts (and I know that the TinBenders kick ASS in their local efforts!).

If you don't like the way your state (or national!) representatives are moving, invite a rep out to a club meeting and make sure they know it!

Randii

Randii,

You're absolutely right about John Stewart. The man is a machine. It is my fault for not crediting his efforts to Cal4Wheel. That was an oversight on my part mostly because John wears so many hats. It's hard to tell which originization he's representing at any given time. One thing is for sure, his efforts are invaluable. Everytiime there's an issue, John is on the frontline fighting the fight.

Believe it or not, it's not a club thing. I was a CA4WDC member long before I ever heard of the Benders. My contempt and frustration has just about the same lifespan. In fact, some of the most productive conversastions have come when I was representing the club in talks with CA4WDC. But we can't seem to get on the same page and that is unfortunate.

...I am 52 but I still like to Get It!...


Is that a typo?! :eek:
I thought you were maybe 42.

No typo dude. What can I say. Must be clean living.:D




Bwahahahahahahahahaha!




Ok, I'm starting a new thread in Land Use Issues. I will copy my post and then I have a comment on a guy that I think represents a great attitude. If El Rolo sees this he's going to think I am on drugs but go over there and check it out.

Good discussions are always welcome!

Now let all take off our Spark Arrestors!

Sorry..had to say it.

KC

Right on, Dave. I tip my hat to John, as well -- and damn straight he's gotta lotta hats! :laughing:

I just get frustrated with Cal4Wheel sometimes -- with it's members (I am one!), it's supporters (I am sometimes one of those), and it's detractors (I am sometimes one of those). Much of it is old politics (especially the North/South thing), but in the end, it is OUR organization -- to fix or to fret.

Dave, I respect your efforts, and your club efforts... much like I respect Kevin Carey's efforts, and his club's efforts. We may not agree with respect to Cal4 all the time (sometimes I think we do), but we keep talking about it, and maybe that will lead somewhere. In the meantime, we'll work our asses off in our own clubs and organizations, and get the job done, regardless.... but I wonder what it would be like if motorized recreation ever actually truly worked TOGETHER, in step, no matter what we 'wheel/ride/run and no matter where we do it.

I've never seen it yet, but I hope.

Randii

I thought this tread was about generating some money to help the cause.
Cal4wheel will probably loose more than 75k by not having this event, some of that loss will be in mailings, contacting and refunding,. I am ashamed of all the grumbling going on here about how Cal4wheel failed everyone. What I see in this thread is a bunch of pop bellied beer drinkers sitting on the porch doing nothing but complaining to each other and to lazy to do anything about it. Cal4wheel does what they can with what resourses they have. There is a lot of political stuff that goes on behind the curtains. I have been to the meetings were hardly anybody shows and the average age in the room is over 50. They are in desperate need of new blood but nobody will step up.
I'm also partly to blame, everybody gets busy, but when the trails close I guess we will all have more time to donate.
I'm not a rich man but I will refuse to accept a refund, that will be my donation.
If one thing comes out of this, I hope it will open everyones eyes that this "can" happen, our trails are not guaranteed to be here tomorrow.

Steve
Cal4wheel life member

What I see in this thread is a bunch of pop bellied beer drinkers sitting on the porch doing nothing but complaining to each other and to lazy to do anything about it.

Well then, I don't think you are seeing every post. Some folks, maybe, but not all of us that posted here are what you are claiming to see.

I haven't earned a life membership. I suppose I could have bought one once, but I've paid my dues all regular like since they were in the neighborhood of $15 and participated in every Sierra Trek for 21 years. I've been a volunteer for the bulk of those yrs and actually chaired my committee for 9 yrs.

I support Cal4, obviously, but I DO believe they need to embrace new blood and new rigs at their events. I believe that the founders of Cal4 took their kids on the trails in flat fenders and stock sized tires. Those kids grew up and bought CJ5's and took their kids on the trail. That experience created a youth that loved wheeling and went out and bought CJ7's and TLC to take their kids wheeling in. Those younguns grew up and bought Toyotas, Wranglers and put 350's in their TLC to take their kids wheelin in. Still, those lil' whipper snappers grew up and bobbed their Dad's hand-me-down rig, then exo'd or tubed it to take their family on the 'Con. That younger generation is now building buggies and playing on the very trails that their ancestors started as a family tradition oh-so-long-ago.

Despite that long tradition and the progress the years have built into the rigs of today, many of them will not meet event width/length requirement. We raised them, taught them to explore our nations trails, encouraged them to build or modify and then promptly told them sorry we'll take your money but your not welcome on this run, son.

It's time to bring the family back together.

I thought this tread was about generating some money to help the cause.
Cal4wheel will probably loose more than 75k by not having this event, some of that loss will be in mailings, contacting and refunding,. I am ashamed of all the grumbling going on here about how Cal4wheel failed everyone. What I see in this thread is a bunch of pop bellied beer drinkers sitting on the porch doing

Blah Blah Blah.

Fordyce is 45 minutes from my house by road. Its 20 as the crow fly. That is just another tinderbox that can threaten my home. Its not just about wheelers, but the state of our public land. I grew up in Nevada where we did what we pleased until the state filled up with non-residents. Now Nevada is learning to play the game California has been playing for 40 years. If a group is going to actually do A DAMNED THING they need to take the blinders off and involve all parties involved. Its a typical California attitude that focuses on the good of one thing and disreguards all of the other aspects of that thing. What about the home owners? What about the economic impact?

Its not just about where we can play but where we can play 10,20, 50 years from now. IF an orginization is worthless, shitcan it and start a new one. Dont baby it, fund it, and hope it gets better. People are only hurt these days by a good swift kick int he pocketbooks.

Is that a typo?! :eek:
I thought you were maybe 42.

I'll make sure I get some pics of the old man droppin it like its hot at my sisters wedding next month :laughing:

BTW I posted a real response in the Land use forum

If a fire should break out in the area, we would have
to evacuate 1000+ people, most likely leaving behind
RV's, etc.

If the fire would be caused by one of our
participants, we would be responsible for the cost of
the fire. Goodby, CA4WDC!



While this is supposedly the most important/worst-case issue, its something that is a possibility EVERY YEAR, not just this one...

I agree that with the person who said there is a lot of dead wood on the ground in the area. It seems to me that if the FS is really worried about fires starting on/near the trail, they need to start maintaining the forest in the trail corridor... rather than just closing it off!

And if THEY can't or won't do the maintenance, then I'm sure WE (FOF) are more than willing to volunteer to do it for them. So they really have no excuse! :D

It's time to bring the family back together.
Kimber, you've got my vote, and a big old AMEN!

Randii

While this is supposedly the most important/worst-case issue, its something that is a possibility EVERY YEAR, not just this one...

I agree that with the person who said there is a lot of dead wood on the ground in the area. It seems to me that if the FS is really worried about fires starting on/near the trail, they need to start maintaining the forest in the trail corridor... rather than just closing it off!

And if THEY can't or won't do the maintenance, then I'm sure WE (FOF) are more than willing to volunteer to do it for them. So they really have no excuse! :D

x2.

I said it in the other thread that we (wheelers) seem to get people deployed to maintain the trail and fix problems to it, and the surrounding area, much more efficiently and more often than the FS ever. I also think it is important for us to document all the requests for service we have made to the FS and the outcome of those requests so that in the future they can never say we didn't make adequate efforts to maintain the trail. It will also further show the shortcomings in their service obligations.

Blah Blah Blah.

Fordyce is 45 minutes from my house by road. Its 20 as the crow fly. That is just another tinderbox that can threaten my home. Its not just about wheelers, but the state of our public land. I grew up in Nevada where we did what we pleased until the state filled up with non-residents. Now Nevada is learning to play the game California has been playing for 40 years. If a group is going to actually do A DAMNED THING they need to take the blinders off and involve all parties involved. Its a typical California attitude that focuses on the good of one thing and disreguards all of the other aspects of that thing. What about the home owners? What about the economic impact?

Its not just about where we can play but where we can play 10,20, 50 years from now. IF an orginization is worthless, shitcan it and start a new one. Dont baby it, fund it, and hope it gets better. People are only hurt these days by a good swift kick int he pocketbooks. Dude, if Fordyce caught on fire, Reno would hardly be in danger of burning. :shaking: Get real, and please stay away from Cali, and your wood cutting, we dont need any "greater than" Cali assholes over here, and sure dont want to offend you with our attitudes. FOAD. You are probably one of those fags that buzzes by my house on the weekends to go to Antelope Lake and clogs it up so the locals cant enjoy it. You got a problem with Cali attitudes, but most of the people you live around are from Cali, you come to Cali to cut firewood, and come to Cali to wheel. What a fag you are. FOAD.


Lance is right, it has not burned in the past, and the chance it would during Trek is slim at best. I am torn on the closure, but with resources scattered afar as well as the conditions, it may be for the better.

Cal4WD has nothing to due with the closure, why are people mad at them? I did not realize they were the almighty? Take this issue up with the NFS, it is their doing. Dont stop helping the few that take up the land use right fight, they are all we have at the moment.

While this is supposedly the most important/worst-case issue, its something that is a possibility EVERY YEAR, not just this one...

I agree that with the person who said there is a lot of dead wood on the ground in the area. It seems to me that if the FS is really worried about fires starting on/near the trail, they need to start maintaining the forest in the trail corridor... rather than just closing it off!

And if THEY can't or won't do the maintenance, then I'm sure WE (FOF) are more than willing to volunteer to do it for them. So they really have no excuse! :DJust what do you think you can do? Haul off 10 miles of debris, 100' from the side of the trail each direction, limb up every tree.
Erik, I have two acres in the trees and I cant hardly keep up with the shit. Yes, every year it is possible to have fires, and we do. It is just that this year it is quite dry, fires burn bigger and quicker, and there are only so many people and equipment to knock them down. I was burning pine needles for five weekends straight from Thanksgiving to Xmas. It was like burning in the late spring. I could not even begin to describe how dry it is at my house today. I have 30 cords of wood behind my barn waiting for winter. God forbid that stack of sticks ever caught on fire.

edit. I am a fag for pulling this off topic.

Dude, if Fordyce caught on fire, Reno would hardly be in danger of burning. Get real, and please stay away from Cali, and your wood cutting, we dont need any "greater than" Cali assholes over here, and sure dont want to offend you with our attitudes. FOAD. You are probably one of those fags that buzzes by my house on the weekends to go to Antelope Lake and clogs it up so the locals cant enjoy it. You got a problem with Cali attitudes, but most of the people you live around are from Cali, you come to Cali to cut firewood, and come to Cali to wheel. What a fag you are. FOAD.

Reno is just the closest real town. I'm in Chilcoot CA. I also intend to get a TON of wood out of the Fordyce area over the next few years. I'm not a transplant that comes up here to jack everything up.

I am torn on the closure, but with resources scattered afar as well as the conditions, it may be for the better.

Agreed. But if you've been through Fordyce lately you'd see fire potential very clearly.

Cal4WD has nothing to due with the closure, why are people mad at them?

I have nothing against them. But my point stands: If a group isnt using your donations for what they are supposed to be doing them why give them more free money?

I agree that with the person who said there is a lot of dead wood on the ground in the area. It seems to me that if the FS is really worried about fires starting on/near the trail, they need to start maintaining the forest in the trail corridor... rather than just closing it off!

Then vote for budget increases and higher taxes. But its our trail, we are there we should be taking care of it. Even a simple pack some out policy and collection area would help allot. Every rig takes some every trip. There are ways to keep these places open.


Keith: Nice fag and Cali comments :shaking:. That helps allot to keep trails open.

Off topic a bit and please watch the language here. If you must use the word use some asterisks. You'll get the idea across.

Same goes with the insults. While this is a part of the PB it is for serious and constructive discussion. I have better things to do than try and keep track of every single word in these posts and I hate to edit people.

But I will if I feel I have to.

Not sure what to do when the F word is in a sig line even if the content of the post is ok. Ban the guy? Hmmm.

Read the rules before you post here.

Thanks.

Its a typical California attitude that focuses on the good of one thing and disregards all of the other aspects of that thing

I should have said "Typical City Californian attitude" here. And that attitude isn't just a Cali thing, its rapidly becoming a West coat attitude. I grew up small town and we always left each other alone and pitched in when needed. Allot of the city wheelers need to unlearn this attitude to keep the trails they want to be on open. Help those on the trails, don't be an ass, waive at other people on back roads, slow down by campsites, if you need something come over and ask, and keep your music low. City attitudes in the woods don't mix.

Tinman/Keith FYI no heartburn here. Its the internet for crying out loud, you cant take it personally. Besides I know who Keith is and he hasn't figured out who I am yet :D. I guess I should have said" My friend and I from JANESVILLE cut allot of wood.

Kimber, you've got my vote, and a big old AMEN!

Randii


Oh shush!:D


I think that the forest debris along our trails and campsites (specifically the dead wood) started it's increased accumulation about 7 yrs ago when these summer fire restriction started.

We used to go in and scavenge and cut the old dead stuff on the ground for our camp fires. Remember when, as the weeks went by you had to forage out farther and farther from your camp site for even the holy pine cone to start your fire? Or how 'bout the funky dance we would do upon finding that the previous occupant of our camp had left us some big chunks of wood for our fire!!!:bounce2::bounce2:

For many years now, come June, we have been restricted to "No Campfires" unless in an official fire ring, in a developed campsite. We've gone without smores and had to cook on our propane stoves instead of charring our steaks over an open flame. When I roll into "MY" campsite at Meadow (You know which one it is!) these days, the ground is covered with a bounty of burnable wood and debris.:shaking:

For years we, as campers, hikers, wheelers had unofficially been managing the flammable area around the paths we traveled for free.:D But because of a few *^$hats that couldn't put their personal campfires out, that free labor was too high a price to pay for the forestry dept. Now we are paying an even steeper price and it is clearly visible as you drive any trail or pull into any camp area.

I miss the days of sending the kids out foraging for fire wood whilst we set up camp. Now I got to find something else to keep them out of my hair!:D:laughing:

I am 52 but I still like to Get It!

Sorry but I just realized.
:laughing:Off topic:laughing:
I guess that your rig's name is Rascal?

The fire danger this year is a major concern. I think my own problem with the whole situation is that Cal4Wheel didn't have a back-up plan. After all these years and all the pressure for trail closure, shouldn't they have had some sort of back-up plan to go back on. The event should have simply been moved somewhere else. I bet the FS would have even helped to find a spot that was OK for the Trek to be held. That would be part of working with the FS. I understand that it would have been a major undertaking, but a good back-up plan would have taken care of the first and hardest step.

Nice idealistic thinking but you are asking the planning committee to plan 2 (or 3, or 4) events for the chance that this would happen? Permits would have to be issues for every location, insurance would have to have all of the locations. Prerunning trails at every location, etc . . .

Maybe you would volunteer to manage the backup plan for an event?

Nice idealistic thinking but you are asking the planning committee to plan 2 (or 3, or 4) events for the chance that this would happen? Permits would have to be issues for every location, insurance would have to have all of the locations. Prerunning trails at every location, etc . . .

Maybe you would volunteer to manage the backup plan for an event?

Not saying that they should have all the permits for the back-up plan, just an area mapped with a trail, camping location, etc. that could be considered in the event of this type of thing happening. I just have a hard time believing that this has never been considered before from a group that is trying to fight trail closure.

And yes, if a trail needed to be pre-ran and mapped for just such a case, then I would volunteer to do just that. Once again though, if I take the time, am I going to be allowed to run the trail with everyone else at the event? I don't always think this way, but most people do. Something to consider when asking for volunteer help.

The permits have been in place for several weeks. History proves that a permit in hand, as soon as possible, makes the event more likely to even get a permit let alone have it still valid the time the event comes around. Food is ordered (as in thousands of dollars) more than a month ahead of the event, NO LATER, per the company supplying the food. Heavy equipment is ordered for clearing roads and watering down for dust abatement and reduced impact months in advance. Portable toilets are ordered months in advance. All of these orders are location specific with refund stipulations for any changes made to the contract.

Changing from one location to another is not financially possible, though it sounds good in theory. Then you have the added expense of notifying everyone that has registerd of the new location.

Now as for Trek specific, the main camp in located on private property making many things much more viable to put in place. As is the case with the Rubicon Springs area, I believe, where Jamboree is held. Not too many trails have a large area of private property in there midst for a main assembly area that the owners would allow to be used.

Sorry guys for getting all wadded up.....

Keep in mind...

Fire fighting resource availability plays in. Our McGrew Trail Ride permit was cancelled a few years back due to elevated fire danger, and the lack of resources 'should' a fire have erupted.

As noted, the additional monitoring requirements initiated by the FS such as fire watch on the trail (and no welding is a prime example) can severely hinder an event. No one in private or public industry is striking an arc in the forest without a Hot Permit and appropriate fire precautions/procedures in place.

I guess my point is that it is not just trail and forest condition that can come to play in these decisions. Many factors, some not readily visible to us, have to be weighed and considered. Kudos to the folks making those calls.

The permits have been in place for several weeks. History proves that a permit in hand, as soon as possible, makes the event more likely to even get a permit let alone have it still valid the time the event comes around. Food is ordered (as in thousands of dollars) more than a month ahead of the event, NO LATER, per the company supplying the food. Heavy equipment is ordered for clearing roads and watering down for dust abatement and reduced impact months in advance. Portable toilets are ordered months in advance. All of these orders are location specific with refund stipulations for any changes made to the contract.

Changing from one location to another is not financially possible, though it sounds good in theory. Then you have the added expense of notifying everyone that has registerd of the new location.

Now as for Trek specific, the main camp in located on private property making many things much more viable to put in place. As is the case with the Rubicon Springs area, I believe, where Jamboree is held. Not too many trails have a large area of private property in there midst for a main assembly area that the owners would allow to be used.

I completly see your point, but what is harder financially, moving things around and paying for that but still getting some money back from the event itself, or paying for many things plus refunding money and getting no money back because the event didn't take place at all.

I understand where you are coming from. No, it would not be easy at all, and I don't believe that it would be, but it would have been an option to try and at least break even rather than lose money. I also understand that sometimes it is better to just cut your losses and move on. So I can't really blame them either.

I think this situation has really opened up a lot of eyes.

You could go through all of the effort for a contingency plan and have that closed down too. How would you look financial then?

Let's face it, shit happens that we don't like. We can't always plan for it. Part of life.

Just what do you think you can do? Haul off 10 miles of debris, 100' from the side of the trail each direction, limb up every tree.


Well, we can do a whole lot more than the "absolutely nothing" that's being done now! :p

There are large ground fuel reduction projects going on all over the place. We just need the FS to make this trail a priority. It has largely been flat out ignored except when/if there is a problem of some sort. "Reactive" managment instead of "pro-active."

One example close to Fordyce- if you drive Hwy 20 above Nevada City (Harmony Ridge), you can see where many miles of forest have been cleaned up for several hundred yards from the road. I believe most of this has been done by the conservation camp (prisoners?) up there. Maybe we can get them up on Fordyce? :D

You could go through all of the effort for a contingency plan and have that closed down too. How would you look financial then?

Let's face it, shit happens that we don't like. We can't always plan for it. Part of life.

You're right, you can't have a plan for everything. I guess that I'm just amazed that after all these years one hasn't been considered.

I read thru the rules that would have had to be in place to this event to happen and I don't understand why they are so tough. If this event requires these strict rules than you follow them. Not every event is right for stripped down trail only buggies. By stepping out of this CA4WDC, IMHO, is sending a message to the world that either we(the offroad community) can't or won't comply. Is this really the image they want to have? The greenies are already painting us as a bunch of lawless assholes hell bent on destroying the environment, by presenting this image we are just giving them more ammunition.

Just my opinion, but with all the bad press we get we need some press that says "the off-road community knows and appreciates the dangers and are willing to do whatever it takes to make our sport part of the solution and not the problem", and yes this needs to include more work by the community at large in cleanups like JRT was talking about.


But what do I know, I sold my truck and don't even have a rig of my own anymore. Hopefully when I am able to build a new rig there will still be trails to travel. :mad3:

BTW Where do I sign up to help? :D

I read thru the rules that would have had to be in place to this event to happen and I don't understand why they are so tough.

The rules/regulations by themselves were only part of the equation. There was still a possibility that even IF we agreed to ALL of the requirements, that the Forest service cold still pull the permit the day before the event.

The closer to Event time, the more financial burden would be incurred. Notifying all Registrant of the changes would be an issue.

I was not at the meeting where the cancellation was decided on but I have to believe that all options were discussed and the Committee made the decision they felt was best. IF I want to second guess them, I should be on the committee as should any of you.

IMO, The Commitie made the right decision under the circumstances. Sure not everyone will be happy with it, but that's life. You can't please everyone.

IMO, The Commitie made the right decision under the circumstances. Sure not everyone will be happy with it, but that's life. You can't please everyone.

Agreed. Under the current circumstances, there may have been no choice. It's too bad that another plan couldn't be used, but it is what it is. I would say rather than dwell on what has happened, let's start to prepare for what is going to happen in the future.

Not sure what to do when the F word is in a sig line even if the content of the post is ok. Ban the guy? Hmmm.

I say ban them and delete their posts. Profanity is for people too stupid to come up with something more intelligent to say. They'll either learn and clean up their language, or just not come back. Either way the rest of us win!

I read thru the rules that would have had to be in place to this event to happen and I don't understand why they are so tough.

Pretty much consistent with the Forest Service's current attitude against OHV use, make it prohibitively difficult to use the trails they aren't closing via route des...

Agreed. Under the current circumstances, there may have been no choice. It's too bad that another plan couldn't be used, but it is what it is. I would say rather than dwell on what has happened, let's start to prepare for what is going to happen in the future.

For disclosure sake, I am a paid consultant to represent CA4WDC interests.

As such, I will state that Sierra Trek Committee acted in a responsible fashion with the best interests of the future of the association in mind with their decision.

Stepping into another position I occupy (President of Tierra del Sol Four Wheel Drive Club), i can relate to the traumatic discussions involved with the decision to move forward or cancel.

TDS was faced with a similar decision point prior to our last Desert Safari. We chose to move forward and did succeed. However, our decision to move forward was made knowing that it would be under a protective umbrella of the Octoillo Wells SVRA. Our option was to move forward without that umbrella of protection.

In short, Sierra Trek had no fall-back position that would have reduced liability to the association.

Could there have been an alternative??? Consider the circumstances (location, location, location)....

No. There is no alternative and will be no alternative for that type of event. (location, location, location)

Reality says that there are limited venues for 4x4 events.

And, without active participation to support increased access, the opportunities are going tp decrease.

In plain English: WITHOUT 4X4 RECREATIOSISTS PARTICIPATING IN KEEPING THEIR OPPORTUNITIES OPEN, areas will be closed.

I will challenge each and every one of you that if you are not donating at least a tank of gas per outing, you are skating and expecting others to support you.

I don't care which organization you chose to support. That is your option. Without your support, those organizations with cease to exist leaving you with no one to support your issues.

It is up to you. It is not a free ride.

What is it worth to you????

For disclosure sake, I am a paid consultant to represent CA4WDC interests.

As such, I will state that Sierra Trek Committee acted in a responsible fashion with the best interests of the future of the association in mind with their decision.

Stepping into another position I occupy (President of Tierra del Sol Four Wheel Drive Club), i can relate to the traumatic discussions involved with the decision to move forward or cancel.

TDS was faced with a similar decision point prior to our last Desert Safari. We chose to move forward and did succeed. However, our decision to move forward was made knowing that it would be under a protective umbrella of the Octoillo Wells SVRA. Our option was to move forward without that umbrella of protection.

In short, Sierra Trek had no fall-back position that would have reduced liability to the association.

Could there have been an alternative??? Consider the circumstances (location, location, location)....

No. There is no alternative and will be no alternative for that type of event. (location, location, location)

Reality says that there are limited venues for 4x4 events.

And, without active participation to support increased access, the opportunities are going tp decrease.

In plain English: WITHOUT 4X4 RECREATIOSISTS PARTICIPATING IN KEEPING THEIR OPPORTUNITIES OPEN, areas will be closed.

I will challenge each and every one of you that if you are not donating at least a tank of gas per outing, you are skating and expecting others to support you.

I don't care which organization you chose to support. That is your option. Without your support, those organizations with cease to exist leaving you with no one to support your issues.

It is up to you. It is not a free ride.

What is it worth to you????

John,

I have more than just respect for what you do for the 4x4 community in general. And I know that when you are challenging people and speaking of donations, then you must be considering all types of donations, not just cash, correct? In which case, many of us that don't donate money/time/resourses to Cal4 do to other organizations such as CORVA, Blue Ribbon and much time on local trails keeping them cleaned, but you probably already figured this. And if Cal4 wants more support, well, there is another thread in Land Use for this.

Because I own two businesses, much of my time is stuck in Redding. Since I can't get out too much, I spend time on the local trails talking to others, cleaning, mantaining, and such (which we have very few of here with Route Dez. also taking place, about 2 years into a 4 year process). And most of my donated money goes to children's cancer charities, because they are more important than the trails. And I doubt that anyone will argue that. I understand the hours that you spend to keep trails open and the effort that you make, but that doesn't mean that others don't do what they can. I'm not here because I don't care.

Aaron

In plain English: WITHOUT 4X4 RECREATIOSISTS PARTICIPATING IN KEEPING THEIR OPPORTUNITIES OPEN, areas will be closed.

And yet no matter how many times this is said, people are standing there watching things happen in front of their eyes and not taking action.

This is a call to action, everyone needs to participate or we all have to find a new hobby!

Folks, please hear this call to action as a general call... if it doesn't apply to you, and you feel that you already do your part, please pass it on to friends and 'wheeling buddies who may not be doing their part.

If the shoe does not fit, don't wear it... but don't discard it, either. Pass it on!

If the shoe does fit, and you can do more for responsible motorized recreation, by all means, DO IT! Write that letter, attend that meeting, talk to your buddies, clean up that trail, etc.

I hate that we have to pay for our forests in taxes, in tax-funded grants, and with our own actions -- with active letters and emails, and active lobbying ... but like it or not, we do have to defend our right to motorized access.

Randii

The rules/regulations by themselves were only part of the equation. There was still a possibility that even IF we agreed to ALL of the requirements, that the Forest service cold still pull the permit the day before the event.

The closer to Event time, the more financial burden would be incurred. Notifying all Registrant of the changes would be an issue.

I was not at the meeting where the cancellation was decided on but I have to believe that all options were discussed and the Committee made the decision they felt was best. IF I want to second guess them, I should be on the committee as should any of you.


Throwing my two cents in, this was a weak decision to cancel. There are plenty of events that are cancelled at the last second because of weather (an El Mirage Landspeed Event, the nite before last year. Speed Week at Bonneville after two days in 2005, World of Speed 2005 entirely the week before).

The participants KNOW of this possiblity ahead of time. However, the organizers go full speed ahead until somebody or something says NO. It says right on the form Non-Refundable Entry Fee, and they accept it. No whining, no wishy washy decision to be made

As far as the liability issue, if you comply with the FS reg about water, spark arrester, then you meet their minimum guidelines, yes? And the permit is issued, yes?

I would offer, that for next year, indicate that the entry fee is non-refundable, and that the listed gear (10 gallons, fire bottle, etc) be made part of required vehicle equipment

Flame suit on

Throwing my two cents in, this was a weak decision to cancel. There are plenty of events that are cancelled at the last second because of weather (an El Mirage Landspeed Event, the nite before last year. Speed Week at Bonneville after two days in 2005, World of Speed 2005 entirely the week before).

The participants KNOW of this possiblity ahead of time. However, the organizers go full speed ahead until somebody or something says NO. It says right on the form Non-Refundable Entry Fee, and they accept it. No whining, no wishy washy decision to be made

As far as the liability issue, if you comply with the FS reg about water, spark arrester, then you meet their minimum guidelines, yes? And the permit is issued, yes?

I would offer, that for next year, indicate that the entry fee is non-refundable, and that the listed gear (10 gallons, fire bottle, etc) be made part of required vehicle equipment

Flame suit on

There is also the major problem of having to enforce this on all rigs, even those that wheel in at night, that aren't really part of the organized event. It was made clear by the FS that those rigs would have counted against Cal4, and why should they take on that kind of responsibility? It really wasn't Cal4's lack of effort, by no means. Plus, if they did have to cancel the event at the last min. it would have cost them so much money that it would have had no problem bankrupting the entire Cal4 organization. I do believe that they made the right choice facing the problems that were in front of them. I agree that they couldn't hold the event there, and I would have liked to see them with a back-up plan. But even with that, they just may not have had enough time to make that happen.

No, I am not okay with it but, I think the CA4dc was put between a rock and hard place by the forest service. I think if the Angora fire had not happened then, Sierra Trek would have gone off without any flak from the forest service whatsoever.

And that is the problem, it was a knee-jerk reaction to something that had nothing to do with trails, OHV use, etc.

There is also the major problem of having to enforce this on all rigs, even those that wheel in at night, that aren't really part of the organized event. It was made clear by the FS that those rigs would have counted against Cal4, and why should they take on that kind of responsibility? It really wasn't Cal4's lack of effort, by no means. Plus, if they did have to cancel the event at the last min. it would have cost them so much money that it would have had no problem bankrupting the entire Cal4 organization. I do believe that they made the right choice facing the problems that were in front of them. I agree that they couldn't hold the event there, and I would have liked to see them with a back-up plan. But even with that, they just may not have had enough time to make that happen.


I don't see how the FS can hold you responsible for people not a part of the permitted group. You have no authority to do such a thing. SOunds like that liability will be there next year.

If a no-refund approach is adopted (like the examples I cited) would this avoid the bankruptcy issue? Plus, now that the fire hazard is lower.....

Looks like the back up plan for next year is to have the fire suppression stuff on the rig and have the FS explain why you are responsible for enforcing their rules for non-permittees?



It is easy for me to sit here a say this stuff, but I do belong to an organization that deals very closely with the BLM, and we bend over backwards to help them. It works to our benefit. They know we aren't yahoos, but if a member acts like one, there will be self-policing.

I don't see how the FS can hold you responsible for people not a part of the permitted group.
Agreed that it doesn't seem fair, but if the Forest opens a specific trail for an organization by special permit, enforcement is generally part of that special use permit -- see Jeepers Jamboree and law enforcement. With the Forest's new Cost Recovery standards, this is a big deal. Cal4 has successfully ridden the fence on this issue thus far by NOT obtaining exclusive-use permits, which has saved gobs of cash in the past, but left us ill-equipped to respond quickly to this closure.

The no-refund approach makes good sense, but it will be a significant change with respect to Sierra Trek, and it takes a while to get that information out. Some folks sent their checks in early in 2007, and changing the rules with respect to refunds after that would be questionable. I do agree that it should be considered for change, going forward.

This is a big event, with much pre-planning, and it couldn't turn fast enough for this year, so standing on the brakes made sense. Next year, I hope we'll have a lower center of gravity, stickier tires, and upgraded swaybars so that we can swerve around whatever the agencies pitch into our path. :p

Randii

I have sent them $200 how much more will it take

If a no-refund approach is adopted (like the examples I cited) would this avoid the bankruptcy issue? Plus, now that the fire hazard is lower.....


Couple problems with this though.....If they did have a no-refund policy, but they are the ones to cancel, then you have a whole bunch of people pissed that they at least didn't get the offer to get their money back. Those would probably be non-returning customers.
Next, since they are based in California, and they are Inc., if they are the one to cancel, then they must given the money/deposit back to the customer by law. They never produced the product or gave the labor, so they cannot by law charge the customer. A business or organization, same thing, they are Inc. This would be a major lawsuit action against Cal4 that they don't need. They are trying to be as freindly as possible to encourage donations. Something like this could not only discourage individual's, but also large business/sponsor's for the organization.


This is a big event, with much pre-planning, and it couldn't turn fast enough for this year, so standing on the brakes made sense. Next year, I hope we'll have a lower center of gravity, stickier tires, and upgraded swaybars so that we can swerve around whatever the agencies pitch into our path. :p

Randii
:laughing: Is that the XRRA driver point of view?

Here's the reasons why from the "cancellation notice we got:


The anouncement is that Sierra Trek is cancelled by
mutual agreement with the Tahoe NF in the interest of
public safety and increasing fire danger.

. . . ."

edit

ok I deleted my scathing commentary...but I have a question.


Are you saying that sierra trek could have been held this year if a fire plan as outlined was implemented and carried out ?

edit

ok I deleted my scathing commentary...but I have a question.


Are you saying that sierra trek could have been held this year if a fire plan as outlined was implemented and carried out ?

Maybe. The permit still could have been pulled at anytime by the Forest Service.

Maybe. The permit still could have been pulled at anytime by the Forest Service.


how is that diffrent then in years past ? will they be issuing guarenteed permits in the future ?

Im a little late on this one but here is my take...

An event and trail thru TNF can be closed to a group of people that are for the most part aware and responsible users of the great outdoors but a 4 lane highway passing thru the same area is still wide open to all traffic? Thousands of vehciles a day travel the highway every day and not one cigarette gets thrown out the window? Yea right!

Im definatly not saying close I-80 that's rediculus but at least consider the odds, the event, the responsible groups involved.

There have been two fires along the 50 side that I can remember, one back in 1982 or so, I remember it as a kid going to Tahoe for a summer vacation. Correct me if Im wrong but wasnt that started by a car along HWY50? Then the Cleveland fire in the early 90's, not sure the cause but didnt it start near the hwy also? Key to both, at or near the hwy. When was the last fire started in the higher more desolate areas of the Sierras by vehicular traffic?

Now look at the Angora Fire, unattended fire by irresponsible users not associated with motor vehicles (to my knowledge) equals mass damage. Not only to the surronding enviorment but the personal loss to those that live there. A thanks to those who took care of putting that one out!

Like others have said, this type of accident could have happened any year in the past but the recent events of the Tahoe Basin have brought it into the spotlight.

Just my .02:)

how is that diffrent then in years past ? will they be issuing guarenteed permits in the future ?

The difference is that the Forest was not closed before the event in prior years. In answer to your second question, I cannot see the future.

Lets see Cal 4 Wheel cancelled Sierra Trek because TNF closed the area. It was not a matter of Cal 4 Wheel just losing it. Not real sure where people get some of the ideas they come up with. Simple minds come up with simple ideas.

Cal 4 Wheel does more to keep trails open than most folks know about. I went to the Northern District Meeting and listened to all they are keeping track of. They have their finger on actions and proposed rulings for every forest in California.

Yes they lost a substantial part of their funds with having to cancel Sierra Trek. Yes this is going to hurt their work unless we all help. Yes every one really needs to donate what they can and/or support any make-up events they might be considering in the near future.

Lets see, if Cal 4 Wheel had followed all the silly rules and reg that the FS placed in their path. If the FS did not close the forest. There is only one small road for normal rigs to get out. There might be 2 other ways out for rock rigs and can handle the terrian. What if the normal 1300+ people show up and a fire breaks out. How many people will die trying to get out because of the higher than normal fire danger and not enough routes off the mountain? Cal 4 Wheel made the right decision. They had no other option but to look after the safety of the folks that travel to Sierra Trek.

Just something to think about before you jump on the band wagon thinking that Cal 4 Wheel did something wrong.

Lets see, if Cal 4 Wheel had followed all the silly rules and reg that the FS placed in their path. If the FS did not close the forest. There is only one small road for normal rigs to get out. There might be 2 other ways out for rock rigs and can handle the terrian. What if the normal 1300+ people show up and a fire breaks out. How many people will die trying to get out because of the higher than normal fire danger and not enough routes off the mountain? Cal 4 Wheel made the right decision. They had no other option but to look after the safety of the folks that travel to Sierra Trek.

Just something to think about before you jump on the band wagon thinking that Cal 4 Wheel did something wrong.


every other small company in california has to have an emergancy action plan EAP http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9726#1910.38(a) why is it that cal4wheel cancels their main money making event because they were required to have and implement a plan ?

cal4wheel has been required to look after the saftey of it's customers attending Sierra trek evey year, why is this year any diffrent ?

Camo, your OSHA argument isn't even worth a response and as for your second question, asked and answered. Come up with some new material.

every other small company in california has to have an emergancy action plan EAP http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9726#1910.38(a) why is it that cal4wheel cancels their main money making event because they were required to have and implement a plan ?

cal4wheel has been required to look after the saftey of it's customers attending Sierra trek evey year, why is this year any diffrent ?

Hey Camo,

I'm with you in the respect of a back-up/emergency/whatever plan. You would think after all these years of not just holding the event, but fighting for land, they would have thought of a plan. But, they didn't and there is nothing that we can say, do, argue, fight, kiss (only for you sweet cheaks:D), whatever to change the past. They, Cal4, has learned a large lesson from this, just like any business would. I think the thing to do at this point is to not drag them through the dirt (they are NOT happy with what they had to do and know that it was fawked up), but to help with suggestions on what they can do to plan better for the future. Now, I'm with you, they should have had a plan. But, I wasn't on the committee, and I really didn't think about it untell after the event was canceled, so........I guess that puts me in the same class on them. We assummed that it would just be open. You know what they say, "Assumption is the mother of all fawk ups".

Camo, your OSHA argument isn't even worth a response and as for your second question, asked and answered. Come up with some new material.

ya to heck with all those silly rules :shaking:

and I'll get some new material when we get a real answer why the organisation that is suppose to be FIGHTING to keep trails open gives up and consedes to shut down thier event of the year.

the press release of :

"The anouncement is that Sierra Trek is cancelled by
mutual agreement with the Tahoe NF in the interest of
public safety and increasing fire danger. "

is BS !! the precadent is now set and with out real answers it seems that cal4wheel threw in the towel in and caved to the pressure. Did the folks in charge loose the nerve to fight for access, get scared by possible law suits , get a bad case of the what if's or simply decide that the hurdle was to high and unwilling to jump it ? bottom line is we deserve the real reason why cal4wheel decided to give up and cancel Sierra Trek.

maybe somebody forgot what it was they were fighting for, hell maybe somebody forgot it was even a fight !!

Camo

Hey Camo,

I'm with you in the respect of a back-up/emergency/whatever plan. You would think after all these years of not just holding the event, but fighting for land, they would have thought of a plan. ".


I am actually ok that they didn't have a backup plan, what I am not ok with is that they gave up the fight.

in my opinion, if they had a permit to run the event then run the event to the very best of your abilitys. Sure new procedures were thrown at them at the last minute....BFD !! overcome the challenge or quit. apperantly they seem to have choosen to quit. not exactly what I am looking for in the organization that is supposed to be FIGHTING to keep trails open.

ya to heck with all those silly rules :shaking:

and I'll get some new material when we get a real answer why the organisation that is suppose to be FIGHTING to keep trails open gives up and consedes to shut down thier event of the year.

the press release of :

"The anouncement is that Sierra Trek is cancelled by
mutual agreement with the Tahoe NF in the interest of
public safety and increasing fire danger. "

is BS !! the precadent is now set and with out real answers it seems that cal4wheel threw in the towel in and caved to the pressure. Did the folks in charge loose the nerve to fight for access, get scared by possible law suits , get a bad case of the what if's or simply decide that the hurdle was to high and unwilling to jump it ? bottom line is we deserve the real reason why cal4wheel decided to give up and cancel Sierra Trek.

maybe somebody forgot what it was they were fighting for, hell maybe somebody forgot it was even a fight !!

Camo

Real reason as explained to me: (not quoting any particular person in or associated with Cal4 or any user groups)

Cal4 was told by the FS that they could hold the event if they could follow certain restrictions. But, that is if the FS didn't change to level 3. And the FS told Cal4 that there is a very high chance that by the time the event rolled around, that they would have changed to a level 3. If at level 3, no permits would be issued regardless of what Cal4 did. So in not so many words, the FS was going to use the fire levels to cancel the event no matter what. If Cal4 canceled the event when they did, then they were stand to loose around $5k. If the FS pulled the plug the day before the event, Cal4 would loose well over $100k, actually I think it was close to $200k or something. Anyhow, the money lost would have bankrupted Cal4 for sure. As a business owner, and after fighting the state for money and my own rights, let me tell you all something. Sometimes it is better to cut your loses and save what you can to fight another day. Sometimes you have to look at the entire war and not the small battle. Cal4 DID NOT CAVE IN. But they made a decision to make sure that they would still be here tomorrow and in the future to keep trying to help and fight. I'm not happy with the decision myself, but I've been in positions like this with my own business, and I've had to make similar decisions. Now we are doing close to $4mil. a year. If we hadn't cut our loses at the time, we wouldn't even be here at all.

IMHO, the FS found a loop hole. Cal4 learned from this and will be better prepared in the future. Trust me when I tell you that they are NOT happy. They are very sorry, very embarrassed, and they know that they need to work hard to gain trust back with the 4 wheel drive community.

I am actually ok that they didn't have a backup plan, what I am not ok with is that they gave up the fight.

in my opinion, if they had a permit to run the event then run the event to the very best of your abilitys. Sure new procedures were thrown at them at the last minute....BFD !! overcome the challenge or quit. apperantly they seem to have choosen to quit. not exactly what I am looking for in the organization that is supposed to be FIGHTING to keep trails open.

I just got done typing and see that you posted this. Like I said, IMHO, the FS found a loop hole and would have changed to level 3 at the last min. just to bankrupt Cal4 and get rid of the major player.

Cal4 was told by the FS that they could hold the event if they could follow certain restrictions. But, that is if the FS didn't change to level 3. And the FS told Cal4 that there is a very high chance that by the time the event rolled around, that they would have changed to a level 3. .

ok great. So now my question is what exactly is a level 3 and how is the descision made to change from level 2 to level 3 ?

is it somebody in the FS gut feeling or is it a set of guidelines similar to the national fire danger rating system ? if it is a condition set by guidlines then I want to know who at cal4 looked at the current weather forcast to see if they agree with the science behind the FS claim that level 3 has a good chance of happening. or did we just get snookered by the FS on a bluff ?

here is the best fire season "forcast" I can find issued by the USFS http://gacc.nifc.gov/oncc/predictive/outlooks/seasonal_outlook.pdf
certainly not the "it is gonna be a level 3 by this date" type forcast but I will keep looking.

I am still looking for an explaination of what is a level 2 and 3 condition and the guidlines used to set those conditions. Also the fire restrictions that go with each level. anybody know where to find the info please post up

ok great. So now my question is what exactly is a level 3 and how is the descision made to change from level 2 to level 3 ?

is it somebody in the FS gut feeling or is it a set of guidelines similar to the national fire danger rating system ? if it is a condition set by guidlines then I want to know who at cal4 looked at the current weather forcast to see if they agree with the science behind the FS claim that level 3 has a good chance of happening. or did we just get snookered by the FS on a bluff ?

Couldn't tell ya that. I'm guessing that the man to answer those questions would probably be Don Klusman, klusman@syix.com He's the Natural Resources Consultant for the North District.

so I just read the press release from cal4 again and now it pisses me off more then ever.

especially this part:

CA4WDC and the Tahoe National Forest agree that for this unusual year, not running the event during this extreme fire hazard would be the best action to eliminate the possibility of a wildfire starting from such a large event.

David Douglas
Sierra Trek Chairman


apperantly David forgot this is a fight when he wrote that lump of BS.

In my opinion a great oppertunity was missed by canceling the event and caving in to the those who want us shut out. sure it would have been a huge pain in the ass to implement the new requirments and yes there would have been some confrontation during regestration and inspection when you had to send people home because they failed to comply, but in my opinion cal4 just did the same thing the forest service does when they close a trail because it is easier to close it then manage it. rather then do whatever has to be done to keep the trail or event open and viable they choose the easy way out and canceled the event.

what could have been a great showcase of fire education, trail saftey and a willingness of the offroad community to host a succesfull event has only now shown the anti-access crowd how weak our leaders are.

and for all you guys that I am pissing off by holding the fire (pun intended) to cal4's feet... feel free to chine in and refute my opinions or information. I hope to god somebody has the information to prove me wrong and shut me up. To shy to post up your opinions in public ? email me or call me directly

Erik "camo" Linker
805-441-0536 cell
530-333-4847 office
camo@pirate4x4.com

so I just read the press release from cal4 again and now it pisses me off more then ever.

especially this part:

CA4WDC and the Tahoe National Forest agree that for this unusual year, not running the event during this extreme fire hazard would be the best action to eliminate the possibility of a wildfire starting from such a large event.

David Douglas
Sierra Trek Chairman


apperantly David forgot this is a fight when he wrote that lump of BS.

In my opinion a great oppertunity was missed by canceling the event and caving in to the those who want us shut out. sure it would have been a huge pain in the ass to implement the new requirments and yes there would have been some confrontation during regestration and inspection when you had to send people home because they failed to comply, but in my opinion cal4 just did the same thing the forest service does when they close a trail because it is easier to close it then manage it. rather then do whatever has to be done to keep the trail or event open and viable they choose the easy way out and canceled the event.

what could have been a great showcase of fire education, trail saftey and a willingness of the offroad community to host a succesfull event has only now shown the anti-access crowd how weak our leaders are.

and for all you guys that I am pissing off by holding the fire (pun intended) to cal4's feet... feel free to chine in and refute my opinions or information. I hope to god somebody has the information to prove me wrong and shut me up. To shy to post up your opinions in public ? email me or call me directly

Erik "camo" Linker
805-441-0536 cell
530-333-4847 office
camo@pirate4x4.com

I think that you bring up some great points, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person on the board to be reading this thread. But have you asked them directly?

But have you asked them directly?

consider this me publicly asking anybody and everybody who has something to do with this as asking you directly.

Camo, did you pay to go on Sierra Trek this year? If not, why do you care so much for no other reason than to criticize Cal4Wheel? I'm just curious... It sounds like you have an axe to grind with them.

So let me get this straight. You want to donate more money to an orginization whose mission is to keep trails open. Because they failed to keep 'the' trail open that mattered the most to their bottom line.


Just want to check the facts.

We can''t control the weather to. We would not want to have a fire and have to evacuate the number of people that come to sierra Trek.

High sierra Poker Run is still on registration is limited.

Thanks to all that support Cal 4

Steve
Central District
Sec/Tres

consider this me publicly asking anybody and everybody who has something to do with this as asking you directly.

Ok, here you go, it seems critisisim come easy but help comes hard. The event committees and chairmen work very hard to put on the events that raise the money for the associations work. When it is time to do these jobs it is always the few same people working hard and get beat up for not doing it the right way. Well if you don't like how we do it, get involved and do it better, we could always use the help.

As for Sierra Trek safety was the main consern, peoples safety is most important.

Steve
Central District
Sec/Tres

We can''t control the weather to. We would not want to have a fire and have to evacuate the number of people that come to sierra Trek.

High sierra Poker Run is still on registration is limited.

Thanks to all that support Cal 4

Steve
Central District
Sec/Tres

Fires are always possible. It doesn't mean we stay home where it is "safe" because Big Brother told us so. :shaking:

Camo, did you pay to go on Sierra Trek this year? If not, why do you care so much for no other reason than to criticize Cal4Wheel? I'm just curious... It sounds like you have an axe to grind with them.

No I did not pay to go on sierra trek nor do I intend to. If you think that makes my opinion less valid then so be it.

That said I expect any and all organisations that claim to be looking out for the best interest of the sport I love and have commeted my life to, to stand up and fight trail closures, not roll over and shut down their event without even trying to pull it off.

The only axe I have to grind with cal4 is over this matter. nothing more nothing less. I just ain't buying the " for your saftey BS " I am more then happy to let it go as soon as we get a real answer.

I just ain't buying the " for your saftey BS " I am more then happy to let it go as soon as we get a real answer.
Erik, your answers are in Kimber's post #25. It wasn't just safety (though that's what the Forest is selling) -- for Cal4, it was logistics, expectations, and financial risk.

There is a wide range of reasons in the cancellation notice that Kimber posted:
1.) additional staff required (on a year already short volunteers) to inspect vehicles and walk the trail multiple times daily (this in addition to the water-crossing staff requirements already added in previous years)
2.) more vehicle and equipment requirements, something that has historically been a real conflictive PITA to check or enforce, especially with different standards enforced in camp or at the trailhead
3.) enhanced exhaust inspection with the same issues as above, complicated by an inability to verify the contents of the exhaust inside-out
4.) food prep and cooking issues with ground-level propane stoves
5.) vehicle breakage and recovery concerns with no welding allowed
There were some IMHO weak-sister reasons cited, as well, but these were the most significant issues, IMHO.

IMHO, there wasn't time to ramp up to Stage II restrictions... and Cal4 made the right call with the non-refundable food and screen-printing dollars and reputation at risk... and no solid expectation that the forest wouldn't move to Stage III and pull the permit anyways. I will participate again next year as a Trek volunteer, and will help make sure we learn from this year.

I agree that the press release snippet of "mutual agreement" was pretty weak. I wish they would have just said that the Forest had the Association over a barrel, and the logistics of proceeding with Stage II restrictions were damn near impossible, even if there was more than a month's worth of notice (Cal4 communicates primarily via the InGear Magazine with a 30month advance editorial deadline, and monthly club meeting word-of-mouth). With a not unlikely boost to Stage III restrictions, this was a pretty simple (though painful) decision.

Blame Tahoe National Forest -- they held the gun to Cal4's head. It doesn't help that our association was wearing board shorts and flip flops... next year we need to plan the event for quick response, maybe strap on some running shoes and do some flexibility drills so that we can respond faster, with better agility.

On a separate topic from Cal4, we, as motorized recreationists, need to find a way to unload Tahoe National Forest's gun. We're in deep hurt if they adopt these fire emergency response Stages as a regular strategy, without a strong basis in auditable metrics.

Randii

We're in deep hurt if they adopt these fire emergency response Stages as a regular strategy, without a strong basis in auditable metrics.



This needs repeating. :mad3:

well golly gee wiz... if all it took to crush the efforts of cal4wheel was a few new restrictions then good riddence to them. Time for them to go away and make room for somebody with the balls and willingness to make things happen.


Blame Tahoe National Forest -- they held the gun to Cal4's head.
Randii

Just to be clear...I blame those at cal4wheel who chose the easy way out by running instead of fighting.

sorry guys but each and every one of those is the lammest excuses I have ever heard. CAL4WHEEL you are a sad dissapointment and will not be missed.

camo

This needs repeating. :mad3:

repeat it all you want.....now that the anti-access groups know what we are not willing to do....it will be thier newest tactic. spotted owls, red legged frogs and fire restrictions. get used to the new order of things. :mad3:

well golly gee wiz... if all it took to crush the efforts of cal4wheel was a few new restrictions then good riddence to them. Time for them to go away and make room for somebody with the balls and willingness to make things happen.


I have a great deal of repect for you and what you have done to progress the sport. And I also believe that you are bringing up some very good points. But, if it is time for another group to rise to the top and take over to fight for land issues, then who do you suggest? There a many different groups out there, most of us are a part of one or more of those groups, but which is going to be at the meetings and doing the fighting. And who will be their leader or leaders for the TNF area? And will this group be a local group only, or a state wide organization? I understand what you mean and see where you are coming from, but before people can swing their support, there needs to be something in place.

I don't have those answers but that is not going to make me shut up and accecpt the lack of action from the current crop of leaders. If they can't or just will not get the job done then it is time for change.

well I am getting ready to leave for Jeepers jamboree ...you guys carry on with your pathetic request to keep funding an inept organisationlike cal4wheel.

FYI... a new 24 hour record was set in fund raising for BRC from pirate4x4 readers today http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=599532

when it comes to land use fights I hope to never hear the words "we can't do it" ever again

I would have alot more respect for all of you on the "committe" had you choose to stay and fight and ended up loosing then I do for you just quiting.

camo

I don't have those answers but that is not going to make me shut up and accecpt the lack of action from the current crop of leaders. If they can't or just will not get the job done then it is time for change.

No, no, don't get me wrong. I don't want you to shut up. I'm thinking just the opposite.:D

You are a leader. You have a ton of experience. You, along with others, have the largest 4x4 site in the world. You can help influence tons of people at the drop of a hat. Look at what Lance did with the BRC donations. This would be a great opportunity to try and bridge that stupid gap that seems to be between the different types of people within this user group. I'll be trying to do something to get Cal4 more involved with the "New Generation" of wheelers, and maybe open their eyes a little. You, along with others from not just this board, have a great following. And you all, as a group, could really do something with that type of influence. Just something to think about. Not that you, or anyone else, doesn't already have enough to do. But hell, I've got two business, 3 kids, a rocky marriage, and am now trying to be a contection point between Cal4 and Shasta/Trinity NF. My wife is pissed ,but like you said once in this thread....You have dedicated your life to it, so why sit there and watch.

Sorry, it sounds like I'm putting this all on you, and that's not the way I wanted it to sound, so I hope you understand. I know that everyone is very busy, but it's just a suggestion considering the amount of influence you have.

It is easy to throw stones, but harder to drive solutions. :shrug:

There's some serious negativity here, and it is a damn shame to see our hobby waste time with infighting instead of moving ahead.

Camo, if you want to support another organization -- do so. Hell, I happen to support that organization, as well... I just don't get riding another organization that you're not invested in that you don't belong to.

Randii

not alot but it helps....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sales order Date: Jul 24,
2007
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

DELIVER TO:
Erik S

FROM:
California Association of 4 Wheel Drive Clubs
8120 36th Avenue
Sacramento, CA 95824-2304
USA
Voice: 916 381-8300
Fax: 916 381-8726
Email: CA4WDC@cal4wheel.com

General Legal Fund
* Not taxable
Qty: 1 at $50.00 :....................................... 50.00

-----
Subtotal 50.00
Shipping Charge 0.00
=====
TOTAL $50.00

It is easy to throw stones, but harder to drive solutions. :shrug:

There's some serious negativity here, and it is a damn shame to see our hobby waste time with infighting instead of moving ahead.

Camo, if you want to support another organization -- do so. Hell, I happen to support that organization, as well... I just don't get riding another organization that you're not invested in that you don't belong to.

Randii

No actually it is with a very heavy heart and pure sadness that I throw these stones. but as hard as that may be, quiting the effort as cal4 has done and not even trying to find solutions is a much more grave violation. every dollar they have ever raised was in the name of winning the battle. to see them quit is a discrace.

yes some very serious negativity that only matches the level and intensity of the blunder that was commited by cal4wheel. sucks to be me :(

I have and will continue to support any and all organizations that are willing to stand up and fight for our hobby / sport.

If you don't get what I am saying randii then I suggest that your as much of the problem as cal4wheel. open your eyes to the issue and quit being such a pansy ass brown noser. the issue is not going to be resolved when they are surrounded by a bunch of YES men.



camo

If you don't get what I am saying randii then I suggest that your as much of the problem as cal4wheel. open your eyes to the issue and quit being such a pansy ass brown noser. the issue is not going to be resolved when they are surrounded by a bunch of YES men.
Sure, I must be brown-nosing up a storm. :rolleyes: Challenging Cal4 and Sierra Trek vehicle requirements was DEFINITELY me being a yes-man.

There's a difference between picking a battle and quitting.

Cal4 is planning a replacement event to keep the tradition alive, and already working to resolve issues for next year. That's hardly quitting.

I have and will continue to support any and all organizations that are willing to stand up and fight for our hobby / sport.
Then I'll see you on the front lines, Erik.

Randii

well camo your opinion of randy being a brown nosing yes man has been noted and properly filed. but you know what they say about opinions........ i don't know why the personal attacks on someone who is trying to help save our trails is justified. i suppose if you are part owner of this website you can say whatever you want about someone whether it is justified or not- no mod is going to step in and ask that you play nice. you need to mello out a little bit. instead of fighting among ourselves we need to fight the attempted land closures as a group united with the same objective - to defeat the plans to close/ limit our access to our forests...................

I understand where Camo is coming from. I agree the situation was a rock and a hard spot, but at the same time there was this window of opportunity to stand up and find a way to toe overcome the obstacle in what I will call "FOTR" Style. One of the advantages of our off-road community is our ability to react quickly and effectively when presented with an obstacle.. The window is closed on this one now. Let's not miss another one, if we get one ...

Whether or not i agree with Camo or cal4wd is irrelevant at this point, since the decision to cancel trek is a done deal. There is a lesson here, and that is if Cal4wd would have persevered, and at least held the event even without the trail runs, it would have sent a message out that the show must go on no mater what. That we can and will find a way to make it happen, no mater what the odds.

The big unknown now is will this decision set a precedence that says to the opposition, "Look, it's really easy to get cal4wd and the 4x4 community to back down". Like it or not, the message is sent and delivered.

I'm not trying to be negative, just trying to look at a ll the angles and the possibles effects. We learn from our experiences.

What if FOTR had backed down in the beginning? Would there be a gate on the Tahoe side of the Con now. Something to think about for the future.

I pray Camo's fears do not come true, and the USFS under pressure from anti-access groups uses this tactic to close off trails in our State for the same reasons in the future.

This is California, and we have the same Fire dangers every year. I know, I live on 5 acres in an area is considered an extremely high danger area every year. It does not stop us from living our life's.

Regardless, I still fully support cal4wd and every other organization out there fighting for the cause, and I fully respect Camo for standing up and voicing his opinions without mincing his words one bit, just as he always does.

Randii, he is a rock, he is the consummate voice of reason, he lives and breaths this fight, and believe me, he makes a huge sacrifice of his personal time and puts an amazing amount of hours in for all of us.

I think Camo and Randii would make the perfect combination of leadership to further the cause. Both have the passion, and if Camo jumps in feet first, man, we would see progress like never before, because a take no prisoners attitude is needed.

Like Patrick Swayze said in Road house "Be nice, until it's time not to be nice" We have to keep all the options open.

Everyone needs to do what they can. If you can't make the work party's, find ways to raise funds for the organization of your choice, all efforts small or large help. Do something!!!

Something that is not well known is that for the last few years, Trek has been struggling. We have been slowly winning that struggle, but it has been grueling at best. We have met many challenges and even resoundingly overcome others, yet some things are still battled. Volunteerism, declining attendance, costs, fire restrictions, camping restrictions, fuel prices, logistics, etc. Most of these issues, other events have also seen.

As for this years Trek, we went months without a chairperson when the man who was suppose to do it backed out. It is a HUGE undertaking and not one that many people can just step into. The chairperson is actually suppose to be co-chair for two years prior to taking the lead (a training period if you will.)

We have intentionally NOT increased attendee fees EVERY year in order for the "common 4 wheeling family" to attend. (Trek IS and intends to stay a family event, I believe.) Feedback of the last few years has been very positive with the improvements that have been added despite obstacles that existed. Yet still attendance declines with many people "I" personally know siting overall costs to attend and burnout as their reasons for not coming any more. (This is where a change in vehicle requirement s might help, I believe.)

Many committees were unfilled for months. Because of this, early sacrifices (ones I don't necessarily agree with) were made and cuts in services occurred.

Some Trek figureheads have moved on to different things and taken their knowledge and immense work contributions with them. Yeah, some would say "good riddance", but I believe these folk's contributions were ginormous and filling their shoes overnight is next to impossible when given such a short time to get it done.

Added to "that" absence of contribution is the more pressing issue of "volunteers don't fall off trees" like a bounty crop each year. In fact this particular "orchard" is in dire need of a new field and replacement crops. When news of the potential "cancellation" of Trek hit the wires, there was no mass outpouring of people saying "Hell, I'll step up to the plate to keep this event on course and not give in to the evil politico." I don't know of any "exhaust" technicians that stepped forward and said, I can inspect those rigs for you and insure we meet TNF requirements so that the event can go on. Where were the droves of people that were going to walk the trail insuring there were no fires caused by our internal combustion engines? Yeah, some of it was in lack of calling out for that help. But in all honesty I believe the people that met with the TNF had far less than a week, just a couple of days, to get the info out and pull off what you are expecting to have been done.

Increased alcohol consumption control (while not displaced) has been sited as a reason many don't come. Increased ATV supervision and control has been sited as well. People are getting tickets for open containers in their rigs and no helmets on their quads. They don't like it and they blame Trek. We (a.k.a. "Trek" volunteers) don't ask law enforcement to show up in droves. They tell us they are coming and sometimes they hint at what they will be looking for. If we see someone before they do, we try to get the word out as to what will happen when caught. We get ignored and then blamed for the outcome.

There is so much more, but this will do for starters to chew on.

Camo, I understand your points and even agree to some extent. I don't believe Randii is a brown noser on this issue although he has kissed my bootey on a few occasions (and vice versa)! I've seen him fight the old codgers, even faught along side him. I do respect your stance,but I don't agree with some of it.

If certain things would have timed out differently, Trek probably would have went on as scheduled. But it didn't happen that way. Competitions have been canceled many times, event locations changed, but even that doesn't happen with little more than a month until the event date.

In response to the comment about no Moderator going to moderate an owner of the board, this moderator will if need be. Just because the poster is an owner doesn't exempt him from the rules. I haven't seen anything yet that needs moderating. Sure, I don't agree with calling Randii a brown noser but Camo is entitled to his opinion and I think Randii is a big boy and he can take it.

When we decided to disable our BB and use this one we knew it would not be exclusivly FOF and there would be a certain amount of side issues being discussed that weren't directly related to FOF business but IMO it has led to some good discussion. Would Lance have started the whole BRC thing if this forum wasn't here and bringing up issues with Trek and Cal? Maybe, maybe not. But the end result is that something very good has come from it.

If and when the time comes that we moderate Camo or Lance I'm sure they will take it like men. If not, we'll just fire up the other board.:flipoff2:

Seriously, I think Cal has done some great things and can accomplish more in the future. It's hard to see all the issues from a bit of info posted here and elsewhere. I do agree they need to change and that's one of the reasons I think they need some new blood. I am trying to do that. Rolo, Rainfly and I are talking about trying to organize a Cal sponsored event (not an FOF project by the way) that is more rockcrawling oriented to draw a wider range of users to Cal. I believe Cal does a good job representing the traditional wheelers but it's time to bring everyone into the fold.

I understand where Camo is coming from. I agree the situation was a rock and a hard spot, but at the same time there was this window of opportunity to stand up and find a way to toe overcome the obstacle in what I will call "FOTR" Style. One of the advantages of our off-road community is our ability to react quickly and effectively when presented with an obstacle.. The window is closed on this one now. Let's not miss another one, if we get one ...

Whether or not i agree with Camo or cal4wd is irrelevant at this point, since the decision to cancel trek is a done deal. There is a lesson here, and that is if Cal4wd would have persevered, and at least held the event even without the trail runs, it would have sent a message out that the show must go on no mater what. That we can and will find a way to make it happen, no mater what the odds.

The big unknown now is will this decision set a precedence that says to the opposition, "Look, it's really easy to get cal4wd and the 4x4 community to back down". Like it or not, the message is sent and delivered.

I'm not trying to be negative, just trying to look at a ll the angles and the possibles effects. We learn from our experiences.

What if FOTR had backed down in the beginning? Would there be a gate on the Tahoe side of the Con now. Something to think about for the future.

I pray Camo's fears do not come true, and the USFS under pressure from anti-access groups uses this tactic to close off trails in our State for the same reasons in the future.

This is California, and we have the same Fire dangers every year. I know, I live on 5 acres in an area is considered an extremely high danger area every year. It does not stop us from living our life's.

Regardless, I still fully support cal4wd and every other organization out there fighting for the cause, and I fully respect Camo for standing up and voicing his opinions without mincing his words one bit, just as he always does.

Randii, he is a rock, he is the consummate voice of reason, he lives and breaths this fight, and believe me, he makes a huge sacrifice of his personal time and puts an amazing amount of hours in for all of us.

I think Camo and Randii would make the perfect combination of leadership to further the cause. Both have the passion, and if Camo jumps in feet first, man, we would see progress like never before, because a take no prisoners attitude is needed.

Like Patrick Swayze said in Road house "Be nice, until it's time not to be nice" We have to keep all the options open.

Everyone needs to do what they can. If you can't make the work party's, find ways to raise funds for the organization of your choice, all efforts small or large help. Do something!!!

no problem with the points you have brought up in your post steve- they make sense and are reasonable statements. the problem i have is when someone makes personal attacks on someone because their opinion and the other persons opinion don't agree. we should all be able to agree to disagree on matters and still be civil to each other in the process. i have been a member of cal 4 wheel for 32 years and have been on every sierra trek since trek # 9. it is my favorite event and i am upset like every one else over what happened. yes there were some mistakes made- hopefully we learned some things from this. b.t.w.- has "t" found out about you and dave yet ? too bad the trek got cancelled:flipoff2:

...Camo is entitled to his opinion and I think Randii is a big boy and he can take it.
I did chafe for a minute :crybaby: but I hugged my teddy bear until it was all better. :laughing: Erik and I will find a ptcher of beer and make up at some point -- we may have to agree to disagree on this one, but bigger concerns bind us together in cooperation.

Meanwhile, he's having fun at Jamboree and I'm stuck here at work! :shaking:
It is pretty clear who has better priorities to me! :homer:

Randii (shoulda gone to Jamboree)

Just my 2 cents
GRINWNC was right on,
Trek was on loose ground this year already with attendence and especially volonteers and without the backing the extra requirments would have been impossible. Cal4wheel is made up of people so how do you win a battle without bodies?
If you think the WAR is LOST think again, just because the CAL4WHEEL has given into this fight does not mean they have given up the war. I think some of the people on this board are venting and Cal4wheel is the easy target right now.
Having trek go ahead would not have OPENED the forest.
What you are forgeting is the Forest was already closed before this event was to start, that is were the fight is, not are we going to have a Sierra Trek. Even if Trek could had moved to another location that still wouldn't have opened the TNF up to the rest of the users
Cal4wheel was hit a hard blow now we need to all get involve "together" to make sure this (CLOSING THE FOREST) doesn't happen again.

Seriously, I think Cal has done some great things and can accomplish more in the future. It's hard to see all the issues from a bit of info posted here and elsewhere. I do agree they need to change and that's one of the reasons I think they need some new blood. I am trying to do that. Rolo, Rainfly and I are talking about trying to organize a Cal sponsored event (not an FOF project by the way) that is more rockcrawling oriented to draw a wider range of users to Cal. I believe Cal does a good job representing the traditional wheelers but it's time to bring everyone into the fold.

Sign me up sir. This is something that I also want to do. I talked to a couple people at the North Dist. meeting (during the breaks) about this. From talking to them, it seems that Cal4, at least a few under the table, have also been thinking about this. Their problem has been that there really isn't anyone in the organization that can link them to the "New Generation" of rigs. I would love to help make that link possible.

so you're saying that you're the missing link? :laughing:

so you're saying that you're the missing link? :laughing:

:flipoff2: I'm not sure what else to say, but :flipoff2::laughing: I'm having a :homer: moment.
I guess I worded that statement wrong, I guess... Anyhow, you freakin get the point.

:flipoff2: :laughing:

Sign me up sir. This is something that I also want to do. I talked to a couple people at the North Dist. meeting (during the breaks) about this. From talking to them, it seems that Cal4, at least a few under the table, have also been thinking about this. Their problem has been that there really isn't anyone in the organization that can link them to the "New Generation" of rigs. I would love to help make that link possible.

I would encourage anyone to run for a Board of Directors possision. I spent 2 two years on the BOD before my son was born and I believe someday I'll go back to it. Cal-4-Wheel is an established organization with a lot of ties to Washington DC so don't be fooled. Some of leadership may be old school but as the "younger" off road community comes of age I suspect that additude will change.

An organization that is run by it's members is only as effective if its membership because that's where the direction comes from. I guess what I'm trying to say is Cal-4-Wheel can swing a big bat and if you want that to be swung for trails and areas close to your heart get involved.

Oh and if you want to go on a run with Cal-4-Wheel to support the cause, we're doing Swamp Lake over Labor Day. http://cal4wheel.com/hspr/hspr2007.html

.............

On a separate topic from Cal4, we, as motorized recreationists, need to find a way to unload Tahoe National Forest's gun. We're in deep hurt if they adopt these fire emergency response Stages as a regular strategy, without a strong basis in auditable metrics.

Randii

They already use this practice in montana, idaho, washington, oregon and parts of wyoming it seemed like almost every year that it got even remotely dry. one forest would be open and the one imeadiately across the way would be closed..... common practice by so many now ....scary

I did chafe for a minute :crybaby: but I hugged my teddy bear until it was all better. :laughing: Erik and I will find a ptcher of beer and make up at some point -- we may have to agree to disagree on this one, but bigger concerns bind us together in cooperation.

Meanwhile, he's having fun at Jamboree and I'm stuck here at work! :shaking:
It is pretty clear who has better priorities to me! :homer:

Randii (shoulda gone to Jamboree)

chilli cookoff at Robbs this weekend... I'll buy the beer. :flipoff2:

Oh and if you want to go on a run with Cal-4-Wheel to support the cause, we're doing Swamp Lake over Labor Day. http://cal4wheel.com/hspr/hspr2007.html


still after all these years and all the places I have been ... my favorite trail

Hey folks check out the Cal 4 Wheel web site they are having a make-up event October 13th at Surplus City. Feather River Fun Day. Want to support Cal 4 Wheel and have a really fun Day. Be There !!!!!! They have a lot of things planned. It will also give eveyone a chance to check out the facilities at Surplus City

Where is Surplus City and will there be wheeling??

Thanks,

KC

They will be using the facilities that are already in place in addition to a new one they will be putting together. At Surplus City there is a small rock course but it is pretty tough and the teeter totter. Cal 4 Wheel will also be putting together a blind man driver and something called the water bucket race and a poker run around town. In addition to they are putting together about a 1/2 mile course that will be setup on a group of mound located just across the highway from Surplus City. That could be interesting. Surplus City is located in the town of Oroville California on Pacific Heights Road just south of town. The event is designed to be a family fun time and also to help out Cal 4 Wheel since Sierra Trek was cancelled.