THIS IS STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS!!!

I just wanted to get it up on the board ASAP. There are many things and defintions that still need to be added, I am sure Randii, Rick and John will want to change things. Please feel free to add to this or e-mail me so I can edit this post. I want and need your input.

Kurt

Kyburz Krawlerz

ROUTE DESIGNATION FAQ
Please read at your own risk, the author will not be held responsible for the fit of rage you will go into after reading about what is going to happen to your National Forests.

Due to the lack of understanding of what the Route Designation Process is and how it will affect public access to public lands, this post will break it down into layman’s terms. One huge reason the general public is not up in arms over the project is because of sheer ignorance of the project. Please feel free to add any bullet points to this post.

Q. What will Route Designation do?

A. The Route Designation Process (RDP) could and will close literally tens of thousands of miles of roads, trails and campsites in National Forests nation-wide. Some forests such as El Dorado National stand to lose over 2,500 miles worth of roads and trails.

Q. Why is this happening?

A. Forest Service got sued by the greenies because of mismanagement of the forests. A court order came down saying (basically) the Forest Service needs to take an inventory of all routes in the forest and re-designate them. Not necessarily CLOSE routes, (even though that is what they are doing) but in their words:

The Forest Service wants to improve its management by balancing the public's enjoyment of using OHVs with ensuring the best possible care of the land. At the national level, the Forest Service is revising its policy governing the use of wheeled motor vehicles to develop a system of roads, trails and areas designated for motor vehicle use. This new policy will still provide public opportunities for motorized and non-motorized recreation, while enhancing protection of habitat and aquatic, soil, air and cultural resources.

yeah, right...:mad3:

Q: So what’s the big deal?

A: TENS OF THOSANDS of miles of roads and trails, many which have been in use for decades, will be closed. This will severely limit access to public lands by the public. Many of the roads that will be closed are spur routes that lead to primitive campsites. Once these roads, trail and campsites are removed, they will be lost FOREVER. It does not matter if a fire-road or logging trail has been in use for 20+ years or if you have camped there forever. If it is not on the final map released by the Forest service, it’s gone for good. This will be the biggest change in the National Forest system in HISTORY.


Q: We got groups like the Blue Ribbon Coalition and FOTR fighting against this right?

A: Yes, HOWEVER, the way the RDP is set up; INDIVIDIUALS need to argue for as many routes, trails and campsites as possible. YOU CANNOT LEAVE THE FIGHT UP TO SOMEONE ELSE! We need a massive response to RDP in every National Forest.

Q: So, who will this affect?

A: These closures will not only effect the 4x4 community, but MX and ATV riders, campers who use dispersed camping, hunters and basically anyone who wants to travel through a National forest in a motor vehicle.

Q: Where will this happen?

A: RDP will happen in EVERY National Forest, if it is not already underway in a forest near you, it will be soon.

Q: Why isn’t there a huge outcry from the 4x4 community?

A: Many people have NO idea or do not understand what the RDP will do to their National forests. If they knew, the public outcry from many groups would be massive. The wording and definitions used by the Forest service are often very confusing. Hence, this FAQ. Another problem is the apathy in the 4x4 community towards Land-use. Many people think groups such as Blue Ribbon can and will do all the work, but in this instance they cannot.

Q: So all is lost right?

A: OH HELL NO! Once the Forest Service picks it’s final Draft, the public has 45 days to comment on and argue for routes, trails and campsites to be put back on the map. It’s kinda like a town meeting, If you do not do this, you have no legal ground to stand on later to fight for a route.

Q: So what can I do?
A: Get involved! NOW! Make sure everyone you know responds during the 45 day comment period. Get on the forest service e-mail list. Pass out flyers on the route designation process in a National Forest near you. Post on various message boards on the internet to spread the news. ELDO National will be holding meetings all over NorCal after the final Draft is picked on the 20th. GO TO ONE OF THOSE!!!

Q: How do I find out if my campsite, trail etc is on the chopping block?

A: At least for El Dorado National, they have created 5 alternative maps. Alternative “A”, is a complete inventory of all the roads and trails in the forest. The other 4 maps are versions that they will pick from. They pick the one they want in ELDO on July 20th, that’s when the public comment period begins. You will need to compare the inventory map against the new map from the forest service. YOU MUST DO THIS! We will not know which alternative the Forest Service will pick until July 20th (for ELDO), but it is best to be prepared. Check all your normal areas you 4 wheel, camp, hunt, fish etc. in.

Eldo’s alterantive maps can be seen here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/route/alternatives/index.shtml



Q: how does this whole thing happen? What are the steps?

A: It’s a five step process:


a. The Forest Service does an inventory of all existing roads and trails used by off-road vehicles and compile the info. This includes “user-created” roads that the forest service does not manage.

b. They issue an order prohibiting wheeled vehicles on these routes until the project is over.

c. The forest service proposes a new map (or multiple alternative maps) of the forest with routes designated and/or removed from the maps. Supposedly this is done with public input.

d. The Forest service releases a draft map with which routes will be for off-road use and which routes will be closed.


e. The public has a forty-five day window to argue for these routes to remain open. (or closed for that matter)

f. The forest service makes a “final-final” map of the forest identifying their “approved” routes.


Q: So is the Rubicon safe?

A: Yes........ and no. Since the trail is a county road, the Forest Service cannot mess with it, BUT many of the spur routes and bypasses off the 'Con are on the chopping block. forget driving off the trail to camp....

Major spur routes or portions of the 'Con on the chopping block:
* Old True Sluice
* long bypass north of Little Sluice, feeds into Thousand Dollar Hill
* bypasses near Devil's Postpile
* spur routes near Buck Island, especially below the dam
* McKinstry access to Ellis Creek

If the forest service closes 2,500 miles of OTHER trails in the forest, (Including Barrett Lake trail which is on the chopping block) where do you think those users are going to go? You think the 'Con is packed now, wait until after route dez....

One thing that may really hurt us in the future is now you will have a greater amount of users in a smaller area, thereby creating more damage and giving the "Other side" more ammo to close even more trails. It's a catch-22. They really got us cornered with this one...

Q: So really, how bad is all this?

A: Here are two sample maps of the same exact area in ELDO National forest. This is maybe 40 square miles worth of roads off of Iron Mountain/Silverfork road. The first map is the current inventory of trails, notice the numbered routes. Very few if ANY of these are single track trails, mostly dirt forest roads. I personally know this area VERY WELL.

The second map is what would happen if Alternative D is picked on the 20th. "There is a worse alternative than this!" To make it even WORSE notice the routes that do not have a red line thru them. That means green-stickers are not allowed on them anymore. (ATV'S Dirt Bikes etc)

http://kurtuleas.com/plana.jpg

Potential AFTER route Dez
http://www.kurtuleas.com/pland.jpg



More coming soon, including defintions of terms.

Thank you for the explantation but what does a person do that does not know of the less popular trails/roads/campsites, just pic some that are on the inventory map and do not show up on the alternative map and say "I want these becuase I have been going there since birth"?

I have cut and pasted this and emailing to everyone I know.

Thanks,
JW

Regarding the comment period.
I would like to see someone who has some knowledge of this process (much more than I) make a cookie cutter form that we can fire out to all our friends and make it very easy to send in.

I heard nothing that said this would not be allowed durring yesterdays phone meeting and did not bring it up myself in order to not give them a chance to say "no you can't do that".

My understaning is they have a LEGAL responsibility to "hear" all comments within the 45 day period. WE NEED TO FLOOD THEM WITH COMMENTS! this would be the best way.

Agreed?

Thank you for the explantation but what does a person do that does not know of the less popular trails/roads/campsites, just pic some that are on the inventory map and do not show up on the alternative map and say "I want these becuase I have been going there since birth"?



That is why we are collecting a list of routes and campsite that MAY be on the chopping block now. We plan on supplying a list of common trails and campsites to as many people as possible, with possible reasons to keep them open.

Regarding the comment period.
I would like to see someone who has some knowledge of this process (much more than I) make a cookie cutter form that we can fire out to all our friends and make it very easy to send in.

This is being done by Rick (WLDWUN) and Randii I believe. We may even include a template on the back of the newer route designation flyer that we will be passing out. Look for this soon....


My understaning is they have a LEGAL responsibility to "hear" all comments within the 45 day period. WE NEED TO FLOOD THEM WITH COMMENTS! this would be the best way.

Yup!! We need a MASSIVE response!

BTT


Here sticky, sticky, sticky....

Where's my sticky mods?

I will sticky it at your request, but traditionally stickies get overlooked and a lot less traffic than a thread that bounces around near the top of a forum with good discussion...


:usa:

True that!! I would also change the title to "Region 5" or "Eldorado" as this is general land use forum.

BTT for ya!

What about the American Disabilities Act?
These trail closures will affect those that can no longer hike,bike,or ride horses due to disabilities.

How long has the DEIS been posted?? It is up now. Downloading as we speak.

Preferred alternative D

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/route/deis/index.shtml

What about the American Disabilities Act?
These trail closures will affect those that can no longer hike,bike,or ride horses due to disabilities.

Do not rely on the ADA.

Congress has taken that out of the equation.

Unless, you can find someone and a bank roll big enough to push it.....

However, keep the issue front and center.....

the DEIS was just loaded online today, it is not officaily out until the Federal Register is printed next friday 7/20
I picked up a cd in Placerville today....

John,

what is the best way to fight for having OHV use on routes that are dirt roads? it makes no sense that they are making these roads open only to street legal only vehicles

Rick

why do I have to argue for specific roads?? isn't part of the point of going up there and camping to explore a bit? find a new spot? Why can't I list every closed trail and say that, "these should ALL be open because me and a lot of other people haven't even seen them yet"????

why the hell can they close things without ANY reason besides having less? What about the massive damage of concentrating the existing (and growing) activity onto an area not even half the size of before? Hows that going to help besides getting more things closed off?

anyone have a flyer to start handing out yet? this is bullshit, most people don't even know whats going on...

Rick:

I wish I knew the magic formula....

Personally, I try to stick with non-descriptive words when I push issues in front of the agencies.

For example, I use "route" rather than trail or road.

I do not like the term OHV or off-road and try to refrain from using them.

I use vehicle (or motorized), rather than jeep, dirtbike, ATV, or buggy.

I have found problems on terminology between Forest Service and BLM.

In general, Forest Service seems to create a difference between vehicles based on "street-legal". For the FS, they deal with county roads mixed with Forest Service roads. As such, rules concerning travel on county roads are easy to incorporate into rules for travel on FS roads. That means it is easy for them to prohibit travel to non-street legal vehicles on travel systems where general public is expected to be found.

State Vehicle Code supports that non-street legal vehicles are prohibited from using public roads; unless variances have been applied for and obtained by the county. Mendocino and Shasta stand to lose several routes because there is no way they can be continuous without travel on a public road.

Whether you are talking FS or BLM, the key factor is the county. If the county assigns a certain classification to the route within their county transportation plan, it is only open to motorized traffic where the vehicle is in compliance with state vehicle licensing and meet Federal Department of Transportation qualifications as a vehicle that can be licensed and driven on public roads.

The county can apply for a variance to allow non-street legal vehicles to cross or use for a short distance a public road. Or, depending on the level of county involvement, the county can permit non-street legal traffic. That is the basic underlying rule that let non-street legal vehicles on the Rubicon (i.e. unmaintained county road).

So, the core issue revolves around the county and the agency. Basically, is the county willing to step up and assume responsibility for a route that is within the agencies responsibility?

It can be done. However, is there willingness on the part of the county to push the issue???

When you take the county out of the equation, the FS deals with 5 levels of roads. In general, "OHV" traffic is limited to Level 2 routes. Level 1 routes are open only to official/administrative access. I don't appear to have the full info on the levels on my laptop.

Without digressing further, the best tact to follow is to argue for access to Level 1-3 routes without getting into the street-legal argument. The underlying issue is to maintain motorized access to routes. The details on equipment specifics can be argued later.

Knowing that on some routes, county enforcement of state vehicle code will apply, I would argue that it is better to keep county/state vehicle code issues away from federal route issues.

Then, if the agency decides to assign a vehicle/equipment specific criteria, it is easier to argue against.

why do I have to argue for specific roads?? isn't part of the point of going up there and camping to explore a bit? find a new spot? Why can't I list every closed trail and say that, "these should ALL be open because me and a lot of other people haven't even seen them yet"????

why the hell can they close things without ANY reason besides having less? What about the massive damage of concentrating the existing (and growing) activity onto an area not even half the size of before? Hows that going to help besides getting more things closed off?

Look at my comments under thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596097

Route Designation: the latest REALITY show.......

John,
thank you for your comments.
I just cannot understand why the forest service seems to be taking this to such extremes here in Eldorado. is it just me? we are losing 50+% of our roads, not unauthorised trails..but forest service signed, number and named roads. I dont care if they are dead end routes, they have been there, they do no harm and should continue to exist.
ok do you think I am frustrated yet?

next question.
what does it take to remove a forest supervisor?
this gentleman does not have the best interst of the people in mind. he has no knowledge of THIS forest. put the route designation process aside, what would it take?

Rick

I found these nicely done maps of the EDC forest road closures.:eek:

http://pd.global.playstream.com/SOC/progressive/trails.swf

John,
thank you for your comments.
I just cannot understand why the forest service seems to be taking this to such extremes here in Eldorado. is it just me? we are losing 50+% of our roads, not unauthorised trails..but forest service signed, number and named roads. I dont care if they are dead end routes, they have been there, they do no harm and should continue to exist.
ok do you think I am frustrated yet?

next question.
what does it take to remove a forest supervisor?
this gentleman does not have the best interst of the people in mind. he has no knowledge of THIS forest. put the route designation process aside, what would it take?

Rick

This supervisor has not made any decisions. Ousting him will be a waste of time unless you can provide a replacement that is interested in OHV. The work is being done by teams within the FS. Anthony was at the helm for much of the decision making. He is gone. What are you expecting them to replace him with Hillary? Focus on the routes. Focus period. Cool off, start looking at routes and getting others to provide input to you. Build your team.


Scott

ps threatening a federal officer is taken at the highest of seriousness. Watch your comments in public.

John,
thank you for your comments.
I just cannot understand why the forest service seems to be taking this to such extremes here in Eldorado.

Rick

Eldorado is the first forest to complete route dez. I would suspect there might be similar action in other forests. None that i know of have gotten to the alternative stage yet. All we can do is stay informed.

Here is the list of significant issues:

Significant Issue Statement 1: A reduction in motorized routes, prohibition on cross-country
travel, and seasonal closure during wet weather periods, will adversely affect forest visitors and
adjacent landowners. This would include the following elements:
1.1. Visitors with disabilities;
1.2. Routes adjoining other National Forests;
1.3. Displacement of motorized use to adjacent lands;
1.4. Limits on dispersed camping opportunities;
1.5. Limits on OHV recreation opportunities;
1.6. Limits on parking for recreational purposes; and
Significant Issue Statement 2: The proposed level of motorized use will adversely affect forest
resources, adjacent landowners, and non-motorized recreation opportunities. This would include
the following elements:
1.7. Seasonal closure effect on wheeled motor vehicle recreation opportunities.
2.1. Resource damage and route proliferation from dead-end routes;
2.2. Inability to maintain and enforce designated routes;
2.3. Impacts to non-motorized recreation opportunities;
2.4. Impacts on private-property;
2.5. Impacts from designating public motor vehicle use on ML-1 roads;
2.6. Impacts to forest resources;
2.7. Increased wildland fire risks; and
2.8. Impacts to grazing allotment capabilities and livestock.

That's cool.....saved:D

1.2. Routes adjoining other National Forests;
1.3. Displacement of motorized use to adjacent lands;

I would recommend that this phrase be modified as such:

1.2. Routes entering or leaving the Forest to adjacent state, federal, and private lands;
1.3. Displacement of motorized use to adjacent state, federal, and private lands;

The core issue is that restrictions put in place in one spot are going to have an impact in another spot.

Here is the list of significant issues:

Significant Issue Statement 1: A reduction in motorized routes, prohibition on cross-country
travel, and seasonal closure during wet weather periods, will adversely affect forest visitors and
adjacent landowners. This would include the following elements:
1.1. Visitors with disabilities;
1.2. Routes adjoining other National Forests;
1.3. Displacement of motorized use to adjacent lands;
1.4. Limits on dispersed camping opportunities;
1.5. Limits on OHV recreation opportunities;
1.6. Limits on parking for recreational purposes; and
Significant Issue Statement 2: The proposed level of motorized use will adversely affect forest
resources, adjacent landowners, and non-motorized recreation opportunities. This would include
the following elements:
1.7. Seasonal closure effect on wheeled motor vehicle recreation opportunities.
2.1. Resource damage and route proliferation from dead-end routes;
2.2. Inability to maintain and enforce designated routes;
2.3. Impacts to non-motorized recreation opportunities;
2.4. Impacts on private-property;
2.5. Impacts from designating public motor vehicle use on ML-1 roads;
2.6. Impacts to forest resources;
2.7. Increased wildland fire risks; and
2.8. Impacts to grazing allotment capabilities and livestock.

Not to mention lost revinue for the bussiness that cater to visitors that come from near and far to enjoy and explore this vast opprotunities for route exploration

"Get involved! NOW! Make sure everyone you know responds during the 45 day comment period. Get on the forest service e-mail list. Pass out flyers on the route designation process in a National Forest near you. Post on various message boards on the internet to spread the news. ELDO National will be holding meetings all over NorCal after the final Draft is picked on the 20th. GO TO ONE OF THOSE!!!"

OK I want to help but we are grease monkeys and are having a difficult time trying to understand exactly what we need to do. I'm handing out flyers, but everyone asks what should I do? So can you explain to a bunch of mountain people how to understand our stand?

Really We have a basic understanding of what the outcome may be but when we go to the meeting what do we do? We want our trails open but the why is more difficult. Please if you have an example of the arguments or comments made and how to put our concerns into words that will be heard it would help. I think too many people I'm running across are confused as to WHAT WE NEED TO DO, to change this. Thanks..

We feel we don't have enough information to make an intelligent statement.
"Sorry about the spelling, I've been up for hours looking for answers)

At the meetings you will learn how an individual can properly argue for a route trail or campsite to remain open.

Once you learn how to do that, make sure you send those comments into the Forest Service during the 45 day comment period which starts on Friday.

Other than that....

KEEP IT UP BROTHER!!! Get those flyers OUT.

:beer::beer:

At the meetings you will learn how an individual can properly argue for a route trail or campsite to remain open.

I will be there with a pen and note pad.

JW

At the meetings you will learn how an individual can properly argue for a route trail or campsite to remain open.

Once you learn how to do that, make sure you send those comments into the Forest Service during the 45 day comment period which starts on Friday.

Other than that....

KEEP IT UP BROTHER!!! Get those flyers OUT.

:beer::beer:

Awsome and thank you...

Just a thought.. has anyone suggested.. Why instead of closing the spur routes, don't they let the clubs adopt them and be responsable for them, FOTR has been doing most of the work for years.. Let each club take a course on how to responsably take care of their route and let us give it a shot.

NEW VERSION OF ROUTE DEZ FLYER!!

http://www.kurtuleas.com/flyer1web.jpg

http://www.kurtuleas.com/flyer2.jpg

Awsome and thank you...

Just a thought.. has anyone suggested.. Why instead of closing the spur routes, don't they let the clubs adopt them and be responsable for them, FOTR has been doing most of the work for years.. Let each club take a course on how to responsably take care of their route and let us give it a shot.

This was brought up to Tony, he likes the idea but after the roads are closed do this to get them back open.....I dont buy that, once closed I think it will take an act of God to open back up.
great job on your flyer!!

:beer::beer::beer::beer:

This was brought up to Tony, he likes the idea but after the roads are closed do this to get them back open.....I dont buy that, once closed I think it will take an act of God to open back up.
great job on your flyer!!

:beer::beer::beer::beer:

NOt after they are closed.. now!! if we can get ourselver organized.. your welcome for the flyer.. wish I could do more..

let me know if you need anything..
http://www.windowpainter.com/

NEW VERSION OF ROUTE DEZ FLYER!!

Kurtuleas! Thankyou very much for these fliers! I have put up 8 copies of them in both of our buildings here at work, they will be noticed by plenty walk-in customers!

I will be at the Pleasant Hill meeting because its the closest to me (about 2 hrs away) but I am trying to plan a trip for the Jackson meeting as well.

BigMike

So how do we effectively get this info to the ATV's and motorcycle guys? The more the better on this one.

So how do we effectively get this info to the ATV's and motorcycle guys? The more the better on this one.
I know that this topic has come up many times over on Thumper Talk. They have the meetings posted as well and I will add the flyer to the thread also.

JW

So how do we effectively get this info to the ATV's and motorcycle guys? The more the better on this one.

I am bringing my friend with me who has been riding for 30+ years all over California and in Colorado. He has a couple older brothers who have even more experience trail riding, who live in the Paso Robles/Atascadero area, and they were just up on Rubicon for the TLCA Rubithon last month on their bikes.

My friend isn't too internet savvy, but he has emailed this information to all of his dirtbike friends, so hopefully one of them is like an administrator on the worlds largest Motorcycle forum :D

Below are some definitions (paraphrased) offered to help you frame your comments.

Do not get hung up on discussing the exact meaning of each word. Pay attention to "HOWEVER" section......

Your comments should underscore "how" and "why" you use the route. If you can point out where the route has been maintained in some fashion (document with a picture), do it.

I would advise that you pay close attention to the use of "trail" and "road". Keep it simple and stick with the term "ROUTE".


definitions:

System route - has an assigned route designation number; list on Forest GIS layer; has active maintenance schedule (on-going or deferred)

Non-system route - Not assigned a route designation number; not listed on Forest GIS layer; no active or deferred maintenance is scheduled

Unauthorized route - see "non-system route"

HOWEVER:
A "non-system" (unauthorized) route CAN be a "system" route if:

it can be shown that active maintenance action have occurred on or along the route.
Example:
Does the route show signs of grading? i.e. dozer cut in hill side
Does the route show signs where a berm has been built up?
Have erosion control actions been done?
Have side routes been blocked" i.e. stones placed to discourage access; natural (or other material) barricades constructed
Does the route exist on an old map or guide booK?

Non-system routes can be included as "system" route if appropriated fund dollars have been spent on any type of maintenance or construction activity on the route.

Appropriated fund dollars is regular annual funding appropriated and authorized by Congressional action.
Non-appropriated fund dollars is special funds received from other that Congressional appropriations. i.e. funding that is received where the agency is re-imbursed by a special permit holder in support of timber sale, grazing allotment, or mining lease.

The argument needs to be made (in writing) that the historic use and actions on the route have led the agency to assume it is part of the "system".

I do have one underlying concern: use of the terms trails and roads.

That can lead to a circular argument in a hurry.

Great advice, John.

All the wheelers should know that the other users, m/c and atv's are aware of the problem, and gearing up to attend the meetings.

NOHVCC has planned a route desgination workshop open to the public at no charge, to be held in Reno, NV from August 23-August 26. August 23-24 is primarily for Forest Service personnel, and August 25-26 is for the general public. There's an important rule in war - know your enemy!

Here's the link to check it out: http://www.nohvcc.org/forest/forest.asp

THere's a lot of us who are trying to work on this. CORVA had our lawyer send a letter to Tahoe National Forest putting them on notice - we don't want them to use the fire as an excuse to keep the trails closed. We don't care if you ride in a 4x4, sand rail, on a m/c or atv. We're fighting for ALL users

BTW - I'm new to this forum, but I've been doing my best to fight the good fight for some time!

I am taking some of these fliers to all of the local motorcycle/quad shops here in Woodland and in Vacaville.

I see and read many things about RDP for nor cal, is there a place that lists what & where & when any meeting will take place for so cal?:grinpimp:

I try to post that type of info (for north and south) on the Cal4 forums:

http://www.ingear4x4.com/phpBB2/index.php

Here's another bump for ya

While you are considering the verbiage in your comments, here is a web site to review:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/mendocino/projects/ohv/criteria/

quick question....may be stupid. Where do snowmobiles fall into all of this?? Thought just crossed my mind because of the Dec-Apr closure listed on Alternative D

Snowmobiles are exempt from the travel management rule.

As such, they will have their own set of guidelines WRT over the snow travel which basically is groomed trails.

You might check with the California Nevada Snowmobile Association to see their take on the issue: http://www.cnsa.net/

I copied this from my post on the Jackson report thread, but wanted to share. I was at Jackson, and from what I gathered about the public comments, is that they want you to list specific routes that you want to remain open, possible alternative plans, and to be very specific, and not just critical of what's going on. Bebe is right, my B.S. meter(and possibly my gay-dar) was beeping nonstop. IMO, they already have made a decision, actually two decisions(they changed from "c" to "d"), and they are at this point just paying us lip service, but we have to play along, and stick to the process so we can appeal, and if that doesn't work, sue. But if we don't follow the process, a judge will just throw it back in our face.
Can someone do me a favor at the next meeting, or all the next meetings, and ask a question for me? Jason already stated that they have no data, nor evidence as to the damages being inflicted on the "resources", nor did they have any idea what it costs to maintain a road or trail per mile. So how can they arbitrarily shutdown over fifty percent of the roads and trails on the Eldo under the guise of shrinking budgets and resource damage, when they have no idea what damage, if any, is being done, and no idea what the costs are??? It's asinine, ridiculous, stupid even. I also asked him if he had a comparison between the amount of resources and habitat destroyed by OHV trails vs. how much is lost due to the Circus's mismangement of forest fires every year. This year already, off the top of my head, they are pushing 100k acres, and we're not even halfway through firre season!!!
And this Jason character was hired specifically for this project. How much of our tax money is he sucking up that could be going to maintenance and mitigation?

Can someone do me a favor at the next meeting, or all the next meetings, and ask a question for me?

So how can they arbitrarily shutdown over fifty percent of the roads and trails on the Eldo under the guise of shrinking budgets and resource damage, when they have no idea what damage, if any, is being done, and no idea what the costs are???

Route proliferation (the old program) and Sustainable Routes (the new program).

Eldo is proliferated with all kinds or routes, dispesed camping spurs, old mining and timber roads, system routes, unauthorized routes etc.

I've been studying the Tahoe Maps (in my spare time :laughing:) and note a huge difference in route proliferation. That said:

It is true that ENF especially has completely mismanaged the forest in general. They chose to not manage as a way of managing and now they have to manage by closure. Same thing really, spending our money to do nothing. I am almost more incensed by the amout of taxpayer $$ they have wasted in the past 50 years "pretending" to manage our Forests. And yet, when they finally get "busted", we are the ones to suffer for it.

Moving forward;

We need to write in favor, substantively, of all our routes that we want to keep access to. I really don't think which Alternative it appears on is relevant at this stage in the game. (please correct me if I am mistaken on this)

We need to ask, if it is highlighted in Blue, what needs to be done so that we can include a solution in our comments.

We need 500 letters for each trail:D Time to get busy.:grinpimp:

We need to write in favor, substantively, of all our routes that we want to keep access to.
Exactly right -- even if a trail is on all the alternatives, a few letters in favor of it staying would be good preventative against the anti-access folks who will likely write letters against it.

I really don't think which Alternative it appears on is relevant at this stage in the game.
That's my take, as well. Remember, the Forest Supervisor can elect to implement any element of any alternative listed in the Draft EIS document -- he may pick and choose the pieces that make most sense to him...

Let's help him by listing routes in our letters that make sense, with clear reasons why.

Yeah, it feels like we're being rail-roaded, but it doesn't matter in the context of the Draft EIS... our best option is to write letters supporting our trails NOW, when we can still impact the process.

Randii

We need to ask, if it is highlighted in Blue, what needs to be done so that we can include a solution in our comments.

We need 500 letters for each trail:D Time to get busy.:grinpimp:

We need to write in all the trails that we like to use. The Blue highlight represents verbatim to key:
Non-Significant Forest Land and Resource Management Plan Amendments Necessary for this Route

Which means the impact is insignificant but doesn't meet guidelines of the forest management plan, whenever NFS deviates from plan they have to make amendments to explain why they allowed route. May also re-route route around problem areas.

Are you referring to Strawberry Trail?

Yes, both Strwberry and Pardoes/Squaw Ridge.

We need to find out the specifics from the Forest Service so we can include the 'mitigation" possibilities in our letters.

It might be that they want a longer closeur season, or a hardened stream crossing etc.

Anybody have the names of the trails that are threatened? I think that would "hit home" harder that just a map and nameless trails.

How do we get the newspapers to cover the comment sessions? Folsom should have been covered, nothing in the Bee or Auburn Journal before or after. There was a reporter from the Bee in attendance.
What is totally absurd is the group that sued is so small they won't even show for input on the DEIS. I think their water is being hauled by the Forest Service Personnel that are being asked the questions that they can't or won't answer. It appears the hearings so far are being held only because they are legally mandated.
It may be a good idea to "certify" your input letters, just to make sure that the FS doesn't respond by saying they received very little cognitive information.

The meeting wasn't as bad as I figured it'd be, but it still wasn't Woo Hoo. I heard between 420-470 people in attendance, and a pair of Anti-Access-I-like-my-quiet types voiced their opinion. On the positive side there were many questions/comments mentioned that help our attempt to put routes on the map.

1 in particular dealt with writing in to the FS and tell them to strongly consider Alternate "A" instead of their proposed "D" then close on an as needed shown by scientific proof basis.

If it's resources they want/are lacking, offer assistance. Give the forest service your name and address and let them know you'll volunteer your time to help keep the trails open.

Tell them you want the proposed seasonal closures to be based on an "as needed" basis instead of a hard Nov-April

Their Stand (FS) is "It's a dynamic system and trails will be considered for adding or subtraction to or from the map on an annual basis". So, According to them, "Closed" isn't necessarily forever (remember, positive thinking).

Be specific about where your route is that you want added (FS site has route numbers for most of the trails. Those that don't have route numbers, use GPS coordinates and/or include a hilited spot on a map to indicate SPECIFICALLY which routes you want put back on the map). The better your "Why" is the more power it can punch, but a simple "favorite wheeling spot" is apparently an acceptable reason.

Send your comments before September 4th to:
A) Ramiro Villalvazo, Forest Supervisor
Attn: ENF Travel Management DEIS
Eldorado National Forest
100 Forni Road
Placerville, CA 95667

B) via e-mail in plain text (.txt), rich text (.rtf), or Word (.doc) To:
comments-pacificsouthwest-eldorado@fs.fed.us

In your mail subject line include:
ENF Travel Management DEIS

Eldorado Travel Management Hotline is 530-295-5666

How do we get the newspapers to cover the comment sessions? Folsom should have been covered, nothing in the Bee or Auburn Journal before or after. There was a reporter from the Bee in attendance.


http://www.sacbee.com/folsom/story/303617.html

Link for the story in the BEE

Amy

I'm glad you pointed out the story. It isn't quite factual but better then nothing. Did anyone try and respond in the opinions page of the Bee? If you did great it wasn't published, if you didn't try to respond don't complain. I tried to no avail so far. Mike
I discovered the problem. The article was only published in the Folsom Area edition.

The article only appeared in the Folsom area edition.

A motorcycle friend of mine says the program is flawed for us (4x4 folk) because the time to have spoke up for desired trails was last year when they were drafting up the maps, not now that the maps are already made. He (Motorcycle friend) says he and several from his trail riding group attended several meetings last year to help create the maps and talk about their favorite riding spots and are only loosing 1 trail on this new map "Alt. D" . I'd like to think we're organized enough to make a big impact, but this is a big ball to have been dropped. The fire we went to last month's meetings with SHOULD HAVE BEEN harnessed last year when our requests would have counted and they were designing the maps. Am I missing something here? It seems to me that we (Cal 4Wheel members, Blue Ribbon Coalition, members, at least) should have received a heads up to this trail planning a year ago when we could have made a difference (not that we didn't in last few weeks). I caught wind of these meetings here, not Cal 4 or any other organization (kudos Pirate4x4!!!). Kudos to all who attended the meetings over the last few months, but I think we as wheelers need to be able to rely on those who have their fingers in the political arena to keep us apprised of the goings on in our backyards... and get more involved in the political arenas ourselves. I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong, and I'd love to prove my motorcyclist friend wrong, but I get the feeling he's right. THAT'S NOT TO SAY WE SHOULD GIVE UP!!!!! Can somebody clarify for me, please?

A motorcycle friend of mine says the program is flawed for us (4x4 folk) because the time to have spoke up for desired trails was last year when they were drafting up the maps, not now that the maps are already made. He (Motorcycle friend) says he and several from his trail riding group attended several meetings last year to help create the maps and talk about their favorite riding spots and are only loosing 1 trail on this new map "Alt. D" . I'd like to think we're organized enough to make a big impact, but this is a big ball to have been dropped. The fire we went to last month's meetings with SHOULD HAVE BEEN harnessed last year when our requests would have counted and they were designing the maps. Am I missing something here? It seems to me that we (Cal 4Wheel members, Blue Ribbon Coalition, members, at least) should have received a heads up to this trail planning a year ago when we could have made a difference (not that we didn't in last few weeks). I caught wind of these meetings here, not Cal 4 or any other organization (kudos Pirate4x4!!!). Kudos to all who attended the meetings over the last few months, but I think we as wheelers need to be able to rely on those who have their fingers in the political arena to keep us apprised of the goings on in our backyards... and get more involved in the political arenas ourselves. I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong, and I'd love to prove my motorcyclist friend wrong, but I get the feeling he's right. THAT'S NOT TO SAY WE SHOULD GIVE UP!!!!! Can somebody clarify for me, please?

Although you are probably right on 99% of this please be aware that any trail is a motorcycle trail. If you were to go over to the motorcycle forums and say that we (the motorcycle community) have only lost one trail on this new map you would probably be treated like the enemy. I understand that you have one friend that lost one trail in his favorite riding areas but you should not let that one friend represent the entire motorcycle community.

I am not trying to argue with you, we certainly share the same looses here. I do appreciate your input as well.

JW

I agree.

Our big players dropped the ball in getting the word out to the users of the forest.

Hopefully, our comments during the public comment period will make a difference in saving SOME roads, trails and campsites and allowing greenstickers on dirst roads that have now been designated for licence vehicles only.

It seems to me that writing public comments and going over the DEIS, are just complicated enough to where people WILL NOT RESPOND.

Most BBS on the internet have very little activity in the land-use forum. Currently Pirate is THE BEST place to get up-to date info on Route Des. I am not even sure if Blue Ribbon has updated their site yet.....

Still, BRC and Cal4wheel ARE active on the legal front and will (hopefully) file a lawsuit.

Although you are probably right on 99% of this please be aware that any trail is a motorcycle trail.
JW


NO, NO, NO...

That WAS the case! Before you could take a green-sticker down ANY dirt road in the forest.

NOT ANY MORE!!

If you look at Plan D, any road WITHOUT a red line through it is now off-limits to greenstickers. Many people are missing this. In the area I normaly camp in (Silverfork) we are losing many roads for green stickers. Many of my comments are trying to allow MX/ATV access to those roads.

NO, NO, NO...

That WAS the case! Before you could take a green-sticker down ANY dirt road in the forest.

NOT ANY MORE!!

If you look at Plan D, any road WITHOUT a red line through it is now off-limits to greenstickers. Many people are missing this. In the area I normaly camp in (Silverfork) we are losing many roads for green stickers. Many of my comments are trying to allow MX/ATV access to those roads.

I got two words for you...

DUAL SPORT

Not all motorcycles are green sticker.

And thanks for all the work you do Kurtuleas.

JW

I got two words for you...

DUAL SPORT

Not all motorcycles are green sticker.

And thanks for all the work you do Kurtuleas.

JW

Ok, that's true...

but are not MOST motorcycles and ATV's greenstickered?

Oh, and THANKS! :D

Yes, I would agree that most are green stickered, but we can't be prejudice against any of our OHV brothers. They are also helping in our fight to do the same exact thing we do.

Cheers,
JW

I'd like to think we're organized enough to make a big impact, but this is a big ball to have been dropped. The fire we went to last month's meetings with SHOULD HAVE BEEN harnessed last year when our requests would have counted and they were designing the maps.

Nobody wanted to listen!!!
people have not become concerend until the 11th hour, when it is now written we will lose all these roads. those that have been working so hard have been saying this all along but it has fallen on deaf ears.

and just to clarify one point. all the meetings last year, field trips into the forest with the Forest service, personal one on one meetings at the main office in placerville to argue to have roads put on the maps....did virtualy nothing. of all the miles I argued for....I got 200 yards of dirt! a short road leading to one campsite

Do not rely on the ADA.

Congress has taken that out of the equation.

However, keep the issue front and center.....

Not as I read this,
The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) (http://www.access-board.gov/about/laws/ADA.htm) became law in 1990. Except for Title V Section 507c, the ADA doesn't apply to Federal agencies' facilities and programs. They were already required to be accessible under the ABA and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act. The ADA applies to State and local government services and to public accommodations, such as motels and hotels, and organizations that are open to the public. Title V Section 507c of the ADA applies to congressionally designated wilderness, so far the Eldorado isn't included. It reaffirms the 1964 Wilderness Act and clarifies that agencies aren't required to change the character of wilderness areas to provide accessibility. Wheel chairs can be used in congressionally designated wilderness.
Meanwhile checkout: (ADA; Public Law 101-336) and this website: www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/accessibility/htmlpubs/htm06232801/page03.htm
49 million Americans have one or more physical or mental disabilities, and this is increasing as the population as a whole is growing.
Discrimination against individuals with disabilities persists in such critical areas as housing, public accommodations, education, transportation, communication, RECREATION, health services, voting, and access to public services.

Do not rely on the ADA.

Congress has taken that out of the equation.

Unless, you can find someone and a bank roll big enough to push it.....

However, keep the issue front and center.....

I'm on the same side as all of you. I'm also disabled and don't accept that Congress has taken the ADA out of this equation.... I'd like to know how they can do this ? I can't hike the forest's like I once did. If I want to visit and play and relax it has to be via motorized vehicle....... no I can't ride a horse either.

Our big players dropped the ball in getting the word out to the users of the forest.
AMA, BRC, Cal4, CORVA, United, and etc. have been getting the word out to their members since the beginning -- I was there with them at many meetings along the way. Certainly more could have been done, but much was done already, perhaps with insufficient fanfare.

We need to keep working together on this.

Randii

AMA, BRC, Cal4, CORVA, United, and etc. have been getting the word out to their members since the beginning -- I was there with them at many meetings along the way. Certainly more could have been done, but much was done already, perhaps with insufficient fanfare.

We need to keep working together on this.

Randii

I agree that the Big Guns were silent. Yes I agree they have been involved, but communication "in my opinion" has been lacking. The August 2nd letter from BRC is the type of action we need from the Big Guns. For that letter I thank BRC.

X2 amen!!!!

AMA, BRC, Cal4, CORVA, United, and etc. have been getting the word out to their members since the beginning -- I was there with them at many meetings along the way. Certainly more could have been done, but much was done already, perhaps with insufficient fanfare.

We need to keep working together on this.

Randii

Thanks Randii, we have to remember -we're ARE all working together on this. Before the meetings, I sent 300 emails to northern California CORVA members asking for participation, and we are creating a website on CORVA.org with sample comments, and rules for writing comments. I talked with 4WD groups, and Don Spuhler, the President of Cal4 sent emails encouraging people to get involved with this fight. As wheelers, we aren't always aware of what other groups are doing. There were a lot of Enduro Riders at the Pleasant Hill meeting, BTW.This is a mass email that was sent out to AMA members:

Fellow OHV Enthusiasts,

Please forward this email and attachments to any interested parties that like to use any sort of OHV on our public lands. The USFS has given the public until September 4th to comment on the DEIS. These comments need to be specific and concise so they can be entered into the permanent record. We need as many people as possible to write similar letters in this format and from what I have heard a written and sent letter is best. When writing these letters try not to wholesale cut and paste, figure out what you are most passionate about and stick with that.

Here some good resources if you need some inspiration for your specific personal letter and I have enclosed the one I wrote in a number of formats. For extra protection and to make sure these comments get counted I have also cc’d via email contacts at the blue Ribbon Coalition and CORVA.
Thumper Talk http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=532487

AMA D-36 LAO sponsored by KTM http://www.ama-d36.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5425

I have a feeling this will end up in court anyway so we need to get these letters written and get on the record as opposing these restrictions so when that time comes our pro OHV legal team can make a stronger case.

Be specific and be polite, being rude or bringing up points like I have ridden these trails since I was a kid will just get it thrown away.

Happy writing and join the BRC AMA* and CORVA I just did and it cost about the same as a rear tire for all three.

Regards, I don’t know if AMA is AMA or D36, either way, we win!

Adam



Please don't misunderstand - we all have a place. But what I believe you're all upset about, is the fact that these organizations can't solve this problem for you - it's up to all of US to act. And, I have a position open on the CORVA Board here in Northern California. Anybody interested?

There is also a public rally scheduled for August 26th, at the Placer County Fairground, from 12 -7. I'll fill in more information later.

DOn't want to make anyone upset, but I do want you to know that there are A LOT of people involved in this fight right now. In fact, a few of the OHV leaders are n our way now to talk with Congressman Doolittle regarding ENF, and Tahoe NF.

Amy

It's REALLY important for individuals to show up to meetings and write in on this one. We went through the same thing in So Cal, and the greenies showed more support then us at every single meeting.

In your letters, talk about how you enjoy taking your family out, experiencing the areas you wouldn't necessarily be able to without motorized recreation. Attempt to sound like you're an upstanding member of society :D Number one thing is to take the couple of minutes to write in and make the effort to show up to the meetings and comment on the process.

If you're new to this stuff about land use and access, or just getting your feet good and wet over the Eldorado stuff, then here's some suggestions.

1. Read the web sites of the long term stable organizations that are out there and working for us now (BlueRibbon, Cal4, United, CORVA, etc.) and see who has what to offer. Trust your instincts, but don't work off rumor or half-info. Ask questions to be sure you're getting the full picture.

2. Realize that some of us do this for a living. Full time, paid (to some extent) professionals. TRUST your partners -- these full time folks -- and use them more. Don't fly off the handle with some new-found idea that doesn't have any backing to it. The truth of it is, quacking like a duck ain't the same thing as flying like a duck. Put your money and your faith in those organizations and folks that have been here all along and are working in the field every day.

That's not to say that all volunteer organizations don't have a place -- it's just that in these days, it's hard to beat full time paid professionals. That is what it is going to take to win this war! More of us in this capacity.

3. Don Amador (BRC), Don Klusman (Cal4), John Stewart (Cal4), Todd Ockert (United), Carla Boucher (United), me (BRC), Fred Wiley (ORBA), Bill Dart (ORBA), Brian Hawthorne (BRC), and Ric Foster (BRC) are MOST of the names of our full time paid staff that work for us four-wheeling types EVERY day.

When you think about that, it's really a SHAME that we can count on two hands how many troops we have in the fight that do this for a living IN OUR WHOLE COUNTRY. The OTHER side has hundreds or more, perhaps thousands, I would guess.

If someone walked up to me tomorrow and said, hey Del, here's a couple Million Bucks to help save trails, what are going to do with it? I would do NOTHING else buy HIRE an army of full time,paid, land use/access folks to work on all our important trails in as many states as we could muster.

My two cents.
Del

The following was written in 1972 by Justice Brennen. The case was Sierra Club vs Morton (Mineral King National Park). His was a dissenting opinion.

"We do not believe such (1) club concern without a showing of more direct interest can constitute standing in the legal sense sufficient to challenge the exercise of responsibilities on behalf of all the citizens
Yet the pressures on agencies for favorable action one way or the other are enormous. The suggestion that Congress can stop action which is undesirable is true in theory; yet even Congress is too remote to give meaningful direction and its machinery is too ponderous to use very often. (2)The federal agencies of which I speak are not venal or corrupt. But they are notoriously under the control of powerful interests who manipulate them through advisory committees, or friendly working relations, or who have that natural affinity with the agency [405 U.S. 727, 746] which in time develops between the regulator and the regulated. 6 As early as 1894, Attorney General Olney predicted that regulatory agencies might become (3) "industry-minded", [405 U.S. 727, 747] as illustrated by his forecast concerning the Interstate Commerce Commission."
(1) Sierra Club, etal - concerning the (2) USDA Forest Service, as well as other government agencies (3) currently enviromental lobby
Read the whole statement by this Justice: http://www.partsmike.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11276#post11276

Hey guys, it seems like most everywhere i go, i try to let people know what is happening to our forests, everyone always seems to be pissed and wants to fight it, but they never knew about it before i told them, (like Sporting Goods section in walmart) I was thinking would there be anyway to get this on tv? maby if it could get on channel 3 news or call kurtis on channel 13, if this happened think about how many people would want to fight it all over california!!! So many people that know nothing about it would be informed in less than a few minutes and the information would be sent to thousands of thousands of homes in one night....... We need more help and this might be the way to get out help........ Please give input....

I just received this email. From Eldorado routes, NF telephone briefing on travel management.
Hello Everyone.

I wanted to inform you that we will have a briefing on the Travel
Management Project on Tuesday, 12 February, at 12:00 pm. To access the
briefing follow the instructions below:

Dial: 1-866-720-3489, then passcode: 9683102, then press #.

We will discuss the release of the Final Environmental Impact Statement
and
Record of Decision. Also, we will talk about our public meeting
schedule
and field questions.

We encourage you to use the telephone briefings and ask that you inform
others about this opportunity. Updates and information can be found on
our
website at:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/route. If you have any
questions
or comments please respond to eldoradoroutes@fs.fed.us.

We look forward to talking with you.

Jason

Just got my letter and EIS from Eldo County today in the mail stating that they chose Modified B plan. not sure if its been posted elsewhere yet, but I thought I'd update this specific thread.

Where do I go to find these maps and proposel maps?

Where do I go to find these maps and proposel maps?
Check the website of your local agency... or let us know where you are, where you recreate, and where you'd like to be active, and likely someone here can find you a link.

Route Designation is wrapping up in many locations, but 'Subpart A' needs participation and activism, as well.

Randii