Copied and pasted from the Fordyce forum:

This might be the topic of a whole new thread but (and I'm taking off my FOF hat here for a minute) my friends and clubmates have been asking this question for a number of years now.

When is new blood going to step up and bring their voice into the Cal organization. This is not a criticism of the current leadership. I for one believe these guys do care about access and off roaders in general but much has been said about Cal not keeping up with the times. I have been seriously thinking about getting more involved in the Cal organization (like I have the time .) I am what many could consider and old timer having been involved in off roading for over 30 years. On the other hand I am relatively new to the level of involvement I now have in four wheeling. Previous to about 5 years ago it was all bikes baby! I have had my truck for 22 years. It started out bone stock and has evolved into what it is today. On the other hand (that makes three hands by the way) I can be considered by some to be the very kind of user that the traditional school of thought does not care for.

I am EXTREME! BBC Truggy, 42's, love to challenge myself. But I am responsible. I don't drive off trail, I use a Pett toilet and I truely care about the future of our trails and our access. I am 52 but I still like to Get It! :DI have always been that way and I always will.

The top guys in Cal have been around a long time and have done a lot of good and probably will continue to do so for a number of years to come.

What I'm saying is that if you think Cal needs to change then maybe you need to get in there and do some changing. There is room for the traditional Jeepers and driving style and the new wave of high performance 4x4's too. What doesn't have to change is the desire for the people driving these rigs to keep our trails open. The more people invloved in the battle for continued access the better. Look around at some of the threads in this forum and others. It's the drunks, off trail drivers and shiat on the rocks kind of guys that are the bad ones whatever their age and the rig they drive.

We are in a period of transition both in how we are allowed to use our public lands and the people that use them. Perhaps we should enter into a period of transition in the leadership of the organization that is trying to represent our best interests. We all need to work together to make this happen. New people need to be brought in and trained in the workings of groups like Cal before it is too late. I'd like to see a few younger people working together with the more experienced members of Cal and learn from them.

I think if you were involved in the inner workings of a group like Cal you would be blown away by the scope of what is going on behind the scenes.

Didn't vote in the last presidential election? Then don't criticize the President. Don't have anything to do with Cal and have never been to a Cal meeting? Then shut the fawk up.

These guys and gals are YOUR elected representatives and if you don't like what they are doing then get elected and try to do a better job.

Ok, I am putting my FOF hat back on now so you are not allowed to flame me in any way.:flipoff2:

So here's a perfect example of the kind of transitional thinking I believe needs to happen in the next few years.

There is a guy that has been involved in Trek for a long time. I think he lives in Nevada. His nick name is Uncle Something or Other. I think his name is Jim Morris but I may be wrong. I could have done a little research but his identity is not that important to the story. I'm sure any of you who have been to Trek knows who Mr. Coffee is.

Anyway, the story centers around my clubs involvement in manning Winch Hill #3. We have done this for several years and as Jim is an old timer he spent the first couple of years really busting our balls about all the things he thought we were doing wrong. Each year we did better in his eyes but you could tell we were just not his kind of people.

Then came last year. The famous cowboys and indians theme. As he arrived on the hill and was distributing our Trek shirts he told use he had heard we were doing a great job. WOW! What a surprise but that's not the best part.

When we arrived at base camp for the big party night Saturday he was the one that had to authorize the sale of some discount meal tickets to our club. We had not purchased them as we had paid a pro-rated committee fee since we don't go to Meadow Lake except for the last night. As he gave us our meal tickets he let us know that he did not agree with our type of behavior. EXTREME rigs, whooping it up and all decked out in Mohawks. But we had raised 1200 bucks for Cal by way of our Sasparilla bar and Mohawks haircuts. We cared about Cal and 4 wheeling and the event. He told us we were doing a good job.

Even though he let us know his feelings HE WAS WILLING TO PUT THOSE FEELINGS ASIDE because he knew we had the best interests of the organization and off roading at heart.

That to me epitomizes the attitude that needs to be fostered by all of us. He realized that we are all in this together and by putting aside our differences we can work together and achieve our goals.

Hell, he even smiled at me and laughed as I got a hot cup of coffee the next morning to combat the Sunday morning "roughness." He could tell I needed it.

Mmmm coffee said I. Mohawk and all.

That would be Uncle Willy!:D

He is an old world guy living in a modern day venue. I love him and he has a way of saying a lot by saying very little, but speaking the truth none-the-less.

Randii and I battled many years to get a minor rig length change into the Trek format. We battled against the "Traditions" and won a skirmish. But I agree that they need to open the doors to todays daily wheeler.

I may still swear by my CJ5 (note: that hasn't seen a trail in years:laughing:) but I do realize that it is not the rig of today. Maybe when I win that Lotto, it'll get it's extreme make over.

The rigs that Cal 4 has been afraid of are probably the more reliable ones on the trails some 6 years after they evolved. Let's move forward, expand the mind, and embrace everyones right to bear their 4x4 be-it-what-it-may.

:D

preach on brother.:smokin:

Too funny -- Uncle Willy (Mr. Coffee) is in my club (or perhaps I'm in his club. no matter). He takes a while to warm up to new people! :D

Cut-and-pasted from that other thread...

Cal4 is California's 4-wheeling organization, and if it doesn't adequately meet our needs as 4-wheelers, we need to get active and fix it.

Many good folks have served well in Cal4, but it is a bit old-school jeep oriented, and IMHO needs broader membership to effectively represent our varied community. Better relevance will lead to bigger membership will lead to a stronger voice and more effective representation... which will lead to even better relevance... repeat...

I like your challenge -- if you don't like it, then GET ACTIVE and change it! Money where my moth is, I'll say that I welcome that within FOTR and RTF, as well.

Randii

Well, I have to admit, I'll go with the whole new blood theme. I tried this once and was pushed aside by the higher ups in Cal4. The "Old School Jeeper is Always Better/Right" is what has been slowly killing them for years. I think they would see a bigger turn out from wheelers like myself if they started to change their events some to make them more inviting to the new generation of wheelers. I tried stepping up and speaking once before, and they where having none of it. Then I watched friends condemned on the CB for going after a rig to get it off the trail my the then, current President. Just to find out the said President never even paid to be there themselves. That's when I called BS and walked. That has been 5 to 6 years ago now.

Maybe they are ready to gain some support from the kids that used to ride in the back of their father Jeeps during Sierra Trek runs, who knows? But if they don't get off their high horse and double standards, then it'll never happen.

You can flame me for this, but I spoke of no names, and this is only my bad experience.

Tinman, Randii, and AJ you are not wrong ....

I am an old fart, went on my first Trek in 1975, wheeled for 15 years before that. I did time as a North district Officer, then President of Cal4Wheel for 3 years. I got so burned out I just wheeled and never attended a meeting since 1982.

The face of wheeling *HAS* changed, and the organization hasn't, and should. It should for its survival, and the survival of 4 wheeling in California.

Rigs are bigger, tires sure are, engines and gears, too. Old school is left only to rigs that *I* wheel, and shouldn't be a part of the statewide organization.

This isn't in any way to denigrate the hard work and long hours and largely personal expense involved by the present or past officers, as they have done majorly good things, but I feel much more can and should be done.... and "we" become a force to be reckoned with in land use arenas, as a statewide voice.

I'd suggest that randii, AND tinman become officers, and run for election, and be a part of bringing Cal4Wheel into the 21 st century ! Hell, I'd even go to a meeting so I could vote for you !

Ken

Wow could I really write a novel on this one....

Little history on me. I started the Four Dice 4 Wheel Drive Club at 25 and was our Cal4wheel rep for ~4yrs. I went to almost every Cal meeting in that time and it was pretty eye opening for me. Since then I resigned my post as president with Four Dice and moved on to helping out Tinman with FOF. I got his arse involved in all this so I guess I felt obligated to at least help advise him along the way :D

At any rate. My rig and my type of 4 wheeling was really shunned upon....or at least that was my perception. Didn't matter that I was leading a club that took an active role in helping at Trek and also adopted the Fordyce Creek Trail and put in countless hours of work there. Some of the old timers never seemed to be able to get beyond the fact that I was riding in a rig that they didn't approve of.

That said. At every single one of those meetings I think I was the only one there that was under 40, and probably the only one there that represented "new school" 4 wheeling. How can we sit here and critique an organization when there is nobody there trying to change it.... People want it to change. Hell I want it to change. I really think its time for Cal4wheel to evolve to accept all kinds of wheelers whether they drive a CJ on 31's or a full blown buggy on 53's. Its time to realize that we are all in this together. Its time to unite and put aside our petty differences and work together as a team. You dont see bicycle clubs arguing with one another because one group likes mellow chit and another likes to do extreme chit... As long as you are responsible and wheel accordingly whats the issue. When I go to Fordyce I wheel like I am in the forest with set rules and I wheel accordingly. When I go to JV I break out the skinny pedal and fawking getit.

How many clubs out there aren't members of Cal4wheel. Hell, look up and down the club list and I don't see many of the new school clubs on there. Many just dont want to get involved and I'm sure there are many that feel like they don't fit in.... Well its time for ALL clubs to join up with Cal and lets fight this chit as ONE! Either chit or get off the pot. Sitting on the PBB all day bitching about what Cal is or isnt doesnt do us one damn bit of good, but getting your club involved, and fighting for change will. That is the only way, and I hope that with the Tahoe NF closure that its opening eyes that we need to start putting our petty differences behind us and moving forward as one united group.

In the end we are ALL wheelers and we ALL want to make sure that we can continue to do what we love forever but if we cant get beyond this chit of who's type of 4wheeling is proper then we might as well just bend over because we will lose. We need big organizations to represent us and we have one that has done some great things for us, yet we want to sit here and nitpick on what they don't do for us from our computer rather then diving in head first and trying to change it...... How is it ever going to change by bitching about it on the internet

Pasted here from the other thread in agreement . . .:)

". . . .
I support Cal4, obviously, but I DO believe they need to embrace new blood and new rigs at their events. I believe that the founders of Cal4 took their kids on the trails in flat fenders and stock sized tires. Those kids grew up and bought CJ5's and took their kids on the trail. That experience created a youth that loved wheeling and went out and bought CJ7's and TLC to take their kids wheeling in. Those younguns grew up and bought Toyotas, Wranglers and put 350's in their TLC to take their kids wheelin in. Still, those lil' whipper snappers grew up and bobbed their Dad's hand-me-down rig, then exo'd or tubed it to take their family on the 'Con. That younger generation is now building buggies and playing on the very trails that their ancestors started as a family tradition oh-so-long-ago.

Despite that long tradition and the progress the years have built into the rigs of today, many of them will not meet event width/length requirement. We raised them, taught them to explore our nations trails, encouraged them to build or modify and then promptly told them sorry we'll take your money but your not welcome on this run, son.

It's time to bring the family back together."

I have been a supporter of Cal for 10-12 years now. I also feel that changes are needed. We need to balance the good old boy ideas with the new blood ldeas. If we are to get anywhere, we all need to come together for the future of off roading. There are to many out there who are NOT involved!
We need to change that!!

Despite that long tradition and the progress the years have built into the rigs of today, many of them will not meet event width/length requirement. We raised them, taught them to explore our nations trails, encouraged them to build or modify and then promptly told them sorry we'll take your money but your not welcome on this run, son.

It's time to bring the family back together."

This is a great statement and I believe that it speaks for many of the younger generation that was taught the proper way of doing things, and are now not allowed on the runs.

I also believe that Cal4 needs to get off the idea that everyone on the run needs to be a member. Instead, have a members discount, and a non-members fee. They would probably get a much larger turn out, including groups/clubs that the younger crowd runs with. I currently don't go to Sierra Trek because I do not want to become a member of Cal4. I give my money to the people that I believe are helping with trails and supporting the younger crowd. The youngsters are the future, and they (I) would be interested in the runs if we weren't forced to become members of something that we don't always believe is fighting for all.

Open the runs up to larger rigs....Don't require everyone to buy a membership card....And you will probably have a larger turn out, make more money, and get the new generation of wheelers more interested in what Cal4 does.

Remember the late 1960's song "Signs". Will quit posting them in front of the younger generation, and they will quit being so negative towards the organization. I really feel that the organization gave off all the bad vibes through the years, and it will have to be the organization that takes the first steps in making things right. The younger generation of wheelers are just like the protesters of the late 60's, and Cal4 is the government, and yes, it is time for a change.

I may be wrong but I think it is allowed to buy a temp Cal membership just for an event so you can participate. Maybe they were just talking about it. I'm not entirely sure about that one.

I just wanted to state again that I think the current Cal organization does a lot of good and it's up to us to integrate ourselves into the organization and help out. By "us" I don't mean any age group or drivers of any particular type rig. Just those that are not a part of the process. I don't think it's a good idea to try and pidgeon hole any person into a group. Older guys and stock rigs, young guys and buggies. I think it perfectly fine for a young guy to be out there in an old CJ-5 with stock suspension, 33's and a powerlock if that's the kind of wheeling they want to do. Heck, I built my truck so I could go do trails like the Hammers and I also then have to use it for camping type trips on the Con and Fordyce. Best rig for the job there? No but it's all I have. If I was rich I would have two rigs. As it is I had to make a choice and you can't do the Hammers with a stock TJ but you can go camping in a Truggy. Just gets a little wet inside at times.:D

When I went to the Cal convention a couple of years ago I was really impressed at the organization of the event and all the other things that are done aside from four wheeling. Public service and scholarships come to mind. I wish I had become involved in this stuff years ago. It was brought up that others and myself should get in there and run for office. That's a thought and in a couple of years a possibility. I have a lot to learn about the political side of things before I could ever do a good job as a leader in the Cal organization. When I hear Don Spuhler talk about the issues going on in the government I see how much I [B]don't[B] know about what's going on behind the scenes. That's why I say we have to get in there and learn from these guys.

One more comment. The word "change" is used here a lot and I think it sometimes seems to imply changing something that is broken. I don't think that's the case here and I wanted to make that distinction. We need to ADD our voices and ideas and not replace the existing ones.

Evolution not Revolution.

One more comment. The word "change" is used here a lot and I think it sometimes seems to imply changing something that is broken. I don't think that's the case here and I wanted to make that distinction. We need to ADD our voices and ideas and not replace the existing ones.

Evolution not Revolution.

I agree, maybe the word change is the wrong word to use. So it's not time for a change, but instead, it's time to be accepted.

Oh, you mean join Cal4wheel, and VOTE for someone else?

Isn't that what has happened to other clubs, ie the Sierra Club?

I may be wrong but I think it is allowed to buy a temp Cal membership just for an event so you can participate. Maybe they were just talking about it. I'm not entirely sure about that one.


This option IS available to any event chair. We have done this for ALL South District Events for many years. It was just adopted officially as a By Law change.

Don't forget the other side of the coin. We have added many SUV type runs in the South Events. We don't want to forget the casual "4-wheeler". They vote too. They are often the ones that need the most education on trail use and the battles that we fight to keep trails open.

I love getting some one on one time with a first timer. They have no idea that driving on a dirt road or trail is an endangered experience. I also enjoy sharing a camp fire with people that belong to "green" organizations. They also, don't realized that the dirt road they just drove in on is endangered.

Joining an organization like CORVA, Cal 4 Wheel, United . . . is more than the trails we run. This is the political voice, hopefully the future voice of our recreational sport; not the voice of days gone by . . .

I'd like to begin a list of what needs to evolve within Cal4Wheel to begin to bring the organization into the 21 st century with regards to the reasons being felt that 'they' are not / cannot be part of the organization.

For example:

Sierra Trek rules ?

Additional Vehicle Requirements for Short Wheel Base Trips
71” maximum width of body, cage, and/or non-flexible flares
80” maximum overall width sidewall to sidewall
122” maximum wheelbase
Traction aiding differentials in either front or rear axle are required on all short wheel base runs.

I remember when w/b limit was 85 inches ! What should it be?

What else would it take to widen the opportunities for participation, and therefore increase membership, WITHOUT allowing stock F-250s, et al ?

Ken

This option IS available to any event chair. We have done this for ALL South District Events for many years. It was just adopted officially as a By Law change.

Don't forget the other side of the coin. We have added many SUV type runs in the South Events. We don't want to forget the casual "4-wheeler". They vote too. They are often the ones that need the most education on trail use and the battles that we fight to keep trails open.


Two things here:
It was just adopted officially. Of course I could say something negative about it taking this long, but the better thing to say is "Thank You".

Next, that side of the coin, the light duty SUV style runs has been addressed by Cal4 for some time now. I don't think that the sport is a coin, it is a box with many different sides that Cal4 needs to look at. To say for example, that Sierra Trek offered one side and the SUV run offered the other side, where does that put the buggies of the present and the future. Like I said, the sport is a box, not a coin. And Cal4 was started to help all types of wheeling, not just a couple sides. I understand what you mean though, they have done great things helping people with the SUV's and educate them to wheel safer personally and environmentally. I think the side of the box that hasn't been addressed is the extreme side of the sport. I understand that Cal4 has not wanted to get involved in that side of things, but if they don't start, they will end up with no real support. The sport is changing in huge leaps right now, and whether people want to admit it or not, the more extreme (or what I think Cal4 thinks is extreme) is becoming the main stream of the sport. It is time for them to accept this and include this side of the sport. I wish they would support us as much as America supports us. Just look at the TV and the ratings for the extreme style shows compared to the ratings for the dirt road shows. This should be a real clue as to where the sport is heading.

The sport is changing in huge leaps right now, and whether people want to admit it or not, the more extreme (or what I think Cal4 thinks is extreme) is becoming the main stream of the sport. It is time for them to accept this and include this side of the sport.

<devils advocate hat on>

While many are into 'extreme', and surely shown on TV, on most of the trails the TJ / Rubi / Wrangler with all the bolt-on gadgets all the sellers exist on are mainstream, not buggies / juggies / truggies.

Most of those in this thread, so far, however, and that is those of us with wishes of what Cal4Wheel could become might be leaning towards, or already have or want to have 'extreme' rigs.

<hat off>

But to BE what we hope / wish / NEED Cal4Wheel to represent a place for ALL aspects of the very broad scope of users must be considered. And I think this thread may very well become such a catalyst for migration, if we can keep it constructive, and informative, maybe even specific as to what is needed.

Ken

Two things here:
It was just adopted officially. Of course I could say something negative about it taking this long, but the better thing to say is "Thank You".

Next, that side of the coin, the light duty SUV style runs has been addressed by Cal4 for some time now. I don't think that the sport is a coin, it is a box with many different sides that Cal4 needs to look at. To say for example, that Sierra Trek offered one side and the SUV run offered the other side, where does that put the buggies of the present and the future. Like I said, the sport is a box, not a coin. And Cal4 was started to help all types of wheeling, not just a couple sides. I understand what you mean though, they have done great things helping people with the SUV's and educate them to wheel safer personally and environmentally. I think the side of the box that hasn't been addressed is the extreme side of the sport. I understand that Cal4 has not wanted to get involved in that side of things, but if they don't start, they will end up with no real support. The sport is changing in huge leaps right now, and whether people want to admit it or not, the more extreme (or what I think Cal4 thinks is extreme) is becoming the main stream of the sport. It is time for them to accept this and include this side of the sport. I wish they would support us as much as America supports us. Just look at the TV and the ratings for the extreme style shows compared to the ratings for the dirt road shows. This should be a real clue as to where the sport is heading.

:confused:

What are you asking them to do, exactly? These are trail runs, and very few CA trails (apart from The Hammers) offer much in the way of (legal) significant challenges for buggys. Are you asking for an obstacle course set up at main camp of an event like Sierra Trek? A competition?
Or just looser size restrictions for who/what can run the trail during the event?

I have been following these forums for a while now (havent posted yet) and see the same people posting over and over again. I am a part of the "new" style of wheeler although I am not new to wheeling. Like all of you I am conserned with what is happening to our forests and want to fight for them so my children will be albe to enjoy them like I have. I was once a member of CA4WD, but did not contiune my membership (like many of my friends) due to lack of involvement and at the time I did not understand the importance of such a group. My club has not joined CA4WD because after a few meetings they felt "under age" and "under appreiciated". My company (in the 4x4 industy) does not work with CA4WD any more due to "outdated politics" and lack of production.
My interest in our land use issues has grown considerably recently. This may be because I now live in the Sacramento area and I'm closer to it all or it may be selfishly because I just finish building my 1-ton linked Jeep which cost me a lot of money and want to use it for a long time to come. I'd like to think my recent consern comes from my age and desire to make a difference in this sport. I have not been to any meetings before but I will be attending the Route Dez meeting in Folsom and any more that I can. After a ton of begging I convinced my company to donate to the Cantina for the first time and will pressure them to do more regardless of how anoying I become to them.
I beleive all the points brought up in this thread are right on. The needs to be a instant intrest with the younger or non-contributing 4x crowds. What this takes in getting the word to people who no longer (or never did) get their monthly In Gear paper. Bussinesses need to get involved. Some how the word must spread down new untravled avenues. For me the PBB keeps me up to date. But our team must comprise of more than just PBB members.
I'm not sure of how I can help, but I will try. I will try to educate my self and all those close to me (friends, family, and coworkers). I appretiate all the work many of you have done for us. Many more people would feel the same as I if they only knew about the efforts that have been put forth for them.

I understand what you mean though

Thank you for that; at first I thought we were going to get into a great Pirate4x4 debate over semantics!!

There are Extreme areas for the Extreme vehicles. If that is what people are after, then someone has to step up to promote and event that caters to that. The existing CA4WDC events are not in that arena. When it comes to "runs", the CA4WDC events are maybe not the best choice. One of my Clubs, tries to participate in an Arizona event every year; they offer some good challenging runs that we can't find in CA.

Victor Valley does it with their Fun in the Sun event. Tinbenders do it with their events. Others do as well. Many of these events are well attended by CA4WDC Members and some of the events donate funds to CA4WDC too and/or to other organizations.

Like EricB asks: "What are you asking of CA4WDC?" CA4WDC is a political/educational organization that uses Events as a source of fund raising. Looking to them to satisfy everybodies "Extreme Habit" is maybe asking to much. As stated in a previous post, being a Member of ANY similar organization is a personal statement that you are supporting keeping trails open. Just because you have a "buggy" or built 4-wheeler doesn't mean you can't belong to an Organization, you just may not be able to participate on every trail run.

As far as events go, I have pretty much given up on wheeling with a challenge. I lead Historical Runs or the less demanding runs and have a great time with it. I have always been out there just to be out there. I deal with stuff between point a and point b, not looking for a challenge but try to be ready when one presents itself.

Additional Vehicle Requirements for Short Wheel Base Trips
* 71” maximum width of body, cage, and/or non-flexible flares
* 80” maximum overall width sidewall to sidewall
* 122” maximum wheelbase
Traction aiding differentials in either front or rear axle are required on all short wheel base runs.
I've seen a well-driven H1 navigate the trail well, if slowly... if that behemoth can squeak through, then a width requirement just isn't necessary!

I'm half-tempted to suggest removing vehicle rules entirely, and have folks run what they brung, and just standardize on a get-the-heck-outta-the-way let-traffic-flow policy, with a beefed-up breakdown crew (and perhaps a breakdown fee to discourage the least prepared). You could use the Staging Crews as breakdown crew, since they'd no longer be needed at the trailhead!

Basically, I'd like to see this event -- and the Cal4 organization -- take a good hard look at its rules and validate them against potential users/members. It is not enough, anymore, to be just a Jeep Club... and that's the assumption upon which most of the rules are based. If Cal4 wants to grow beyond <5000 members and increase its relevance, it needs to welcome 4x4s -- ALL 4x4s.

Randii

Like EricB asks: "What are you asking of CA4WDC?" CA4WDC is a political/educational organization that uses Events as a source of fund raising. Looking to them to satisfy everybodies "Extreme Habit" is maybe asking to much. As stated in a previous post, being a Member of ANY similar organization is a personal statement that you are supporting keeping trails open. Just because you have a "buggy" or built 4-wheeler doesn't mean you can't belong to an Organization, you just may not be able to participate on every trail run.

Steve, I'm looking for open-minded support for 4-wheelers from my state organization. I think it can grow, but it needs to welcome anything with a transfer case, whether it sports stock 27" tires or 60" Terras. The default mindset needs to be OPEN, with respect to members and their vehicles.

Randii

Steve, I'm looking for open-minded support for 4-wheelers from my state organization. I think it can grow, but it needs to welcome anything with a transfer case, whether it sports stock 27" tires or 60" Terras. The default mindset needs to be OPEN, with respect to members and their vehicles.

Randii

Absolutely, but the every trail isn't built for ANYTHING with a transfer case.

I do vehicle inspections at some events and more and more, I have people showing up with non street legal vehicles (no license, no insurance) for "street legal" trails. What am I to do? Mindset for membership is OPEN but we have to regulate what goes on some trails because of the Land Managers involved.

Steve, I know YOU are open-minded... you'd HAVE to be to 'wheel an Isuzu! :flipoff2:

I guess what I ask is that the TRAIL requirements be the priority and not the ORGANIZATION requirements. At one time, these two things may have overlapped for Sierra Trek, but IMHO they have long since diverged...

Each trail will vary. For trails where registration is required, the vehicles should have registration and insurance, or should follow at the end of the organized run, and take their chances.

If a Land Manager sets a requirement, that's one thing... I see too many requirements set perhaps by good intention, that wind up years later being needlessly exclusive.

Randii (Cal4Wheel faithful member)

TRAIL requirements be the priority and not the ORGANIZATION requirements

I get it. Fortunately/unfortunately, this will probably be a subject that I will be more familiar with in the near future.

:confused:

What are you asking them to do, exactly? These are trail runs, and very few CA trails (apart from The Hammers) offer much in the way of (legal) significant challenges for buggys. Are you asking for an obstacle course set up at main camp of an event like Sierra Trek? A competition?
Or just looser size restrictions for who/what can run the trail during the event?

I've seen a well-driven H1 navigate the trail well, if slowly... if that behemoth can squeak through, then a width requirement just isn't necessary!

I'm half-tempted to suggest removing vehicle rules entirely, and have folks run what they brung, and just standardize on a get-the-heck-outta-the-way let-traffic-flow policy, with a beefed-up breakdown crew (and perhaps a breakdown fee to discourage the least prepared). You could use the Staging Crews as breakdown crew, since they'd no longer be needed at the trailhead!

Basically, I'd like to see this event -- and the Cal4 organization -- take a good hard look at its rules and validate them against potential users/members. It is not enough, anymore, to be just a Jeep Club... and that's the assumption upon which most of the rules are based. If Cal4 wants to grow beyond <5000 members and increase its relevance, it needs to welcome 4x4s -- ALL 4x4s.

Randii

Thank you Randii. I'm not saying that we need to make the trail hard enough to challenge buggies. FOR GOD'S SAKE PEOPLE, GET THE HELL OUT OF THAT MIND SET. THAT IS WHAT IS TEARING CAL4WHEEL APART RIGHT NOW. WHAT, IS IT A CRIME FOR ME TO GO OUT AND ENJOY THE TRAIL FOR WHAT IT IS? DON'T THE YOUNGER GENERATION OF WHEELERS DESERVE THAT?

Absolutely, but the every trail isn't built for ANYTHING with a transfer case.

I do vehicle inspections at some events and more and more, I have people showing up with non street legal vehicles (no license, no insurance) for "street legal" trails. What am I to do? Mindset for membership is OPEN but we have to regulate what goes on some trails because of the Land Managers involved.

So what is wrong with a Green Sticker Vehicle running the trail. Quads run it for fun, why can't we?

Steve, I know YOU are open-minded... you'd HAVE to be to 'wheel an Isuzu! :flipoff2:

I guess what I ask is that the TRAIL requirements be the priority and not the ORGANIZATION requirements. At one time, these two things may have overlapped for Sierra Trek, but IMHO they have long since diverged...

Each trail will vary. For trails where registration is required, the vehicles should have registration and insurance, or should follow at the end of the organized run, and take their chances.

If a Land Manager sets a requirement, that's one thing... I see too many requirements set perhaps by good intention, that wind up years later being needlessly exclusive.

Randii (Cal4Wheel faithful member)

I agree with Randii on this 100%. Randii, Tinman and a few others can see the future of the sport and where organizations like Cal4 are going to try and get support. They need to open up their eyes and allow the new generation of vehicles to participate in their events and they will make more money, get more support, and everyone would get along much better. I really believe that the biggest problem between the "Old School" and the "New School" stems from Cal4 and their attitude through the years. Hell, as a kid is was the "Flatty Guys" against the "Round Fender Guys" in the late 70's. When is Cal4 going to try and accept everyone for who they are and what they drive?

I get it. Fortunately/unfortunately, this will probably be a subject that I will be more familiar with in the near future.

Sorry I just posted and was typing while you posted. You get it. That's a start. Now take that to the next Cal4 meeting so that they get it.

Thank you for understanding.

So what is wrong with a Green Sticker Vehicle running the trail. Quads run it for fun, why can't we?


Just remember that most of my replies are not "trail" specific. I am talking in generalities. One event I work includes quad, cycles and 4 wheel drive vehicles. The other 2 don't. If people want to run the same trails on the same days, we just ask that they do it after the Event run takes place. I don't know the specifics of the Fordyce/Sierra Trek trail/event.

Another out of state event is run what you brung; you can walk or bike if you want too. We even let Jeeps run with us :flipoff2:

Just remember that most of my replies are not "trail" specific. I am talking in generalities. One event I work includes quad, cycles and 4 wheel drive vehicles. The other 2 don't. If people want to run the same trails on the same days, we just ask that they do it after the Event run takes place. I don't know the specifics of the Fordyce/Sierra Trek trail/event.

Another out of state event is run what you brung; you can walk or bike if you want too. We even let Jeeps run with us :flipoff2:

I'm also speaking generally. Cal4 makes it a point to have streetable lic., & insurance, and that is just part of where I believe they are making a mistake.

I understand completely what you mean about every trail being different. And I think that WE (everyone is this thread) will have to try and keep in mind the title of the thread. The Sierra Trek itself is another thread. Thank you for reminding me about that, even if you didn't mean to.

I appreciate the frank comments and please, keep the discussion moving.

Before people get wrapped around the axle WRT equipment specifications and events, there are two underlying factors that are out of the control of Cal4 or any other organization.

1 -- Land manager requirements
2 -- Insurance requirements.

1 -- Events on federal lands require Special Recreation Permits. Land managers are starting to tighten requirements for issuing permits. I spent almost a year meeting with BLM to ensure their permit application was consistent across district offices and did not penalize anyone based on type of equipment.

In other words, in the Cal Desert District, street legal and non-street legal are treated the same.

We are trying to work with the Forest Service to develop a similar consistent policy.

There is one sticking point -- classification of the specific route. If it is recognized as part of the county transportation system, non-street legal vehicles may be prohibited from using that route. Unless the county obtains a variance permit from the CHP. (This is a convoluted process written into California Public Resources Code and Vehicle Code as part of the State OHMVR Program.)

2 -- The insurance is a big issue. The land manager requires that events obtain insurance. Insurance carriers balk at underwriting policies where non-street legal vehicles are involved when there are spectators and there are no defined distances or barriers between vehicles and spectators.

I am sure people are going to chime in a provide names of companies that will underwrite insurance. I have talked to a number of potential underwriters and other people going through the same process.

In short, insurance underwriters understand closed course, stadium, and competition events. They have not been able to grasp that a trail ride is not a close course, in a stadium, nor a competitive event.

Before anyone says it, BLM and FS will not issue permits for "competitive" events outside of a designated OHV area.

Big Rich has been struggling through similar issues with his rockcrawling events.

In short, I hear you about the buggies. It sure would make life easier if they were street-legal. As they are not, it is now down to working with the land manager to ensure some verbiage they slip into route designation does not restrict vehicle type.

Definitions are critical. I can highlight instances in other states where insistence on a specific word has resulted in a class of vehicles being excluded from access to prime recreation opportunities.

Don Klusman and I are spending a lot of time with other CA OHV groups to ensure that we do not come up with something that is going to be detrimental to the needs of the recreating public.

And, there has been some noise out of some Forests to consider vehicle equipment restrictions.

We are trying to not let that happen.

In short, permit and insurance are big factors that lead to equipment restrictions. These are issues that will not go away over night and, bringing them up for discussion is one way to work to get them changed.

I'm also speaking generally. Cal4 makes it a point to have streetable lic., & insurance, and that is just part of where I believe they are making a mistake.


Let's explore this a bit, I'd like to hear a few more opinions. I'm not convinced one way or another.

For motorcycles and quads (and 4 Wheel Drives), there is CORVA. Blue Ribbon represents anything motorized. For specifically motorcycles, quads and dune buggies, there is ASA etc. There are several other organizations out there. CORVA and CA4WDC may be the only CA specific ones.

Should CA4WDC be a one size fits all organization? The plus side of excepting everyone is that there is more of a pool of potential members. The downside might be broadening the scope of issues that we try to represent in the political arena might dilute our attention to specific issues? More income, more responsibilities, a tough dilemma.

Or maybe you had another direction intended with your comment? To Trailerguy, do you have some specifics that you would like to see CA4WDC incorporate?

Note > I'll be off the computer for several hours, I won't be ignoring any responses.

You could use the Staging Crews as breakdown crew, since they'd no longer be needed at the trailhead!


Randii

What the hell are you getting me into now fricker!!!!:flipoff2::laughing:



Absolutely, but the every trail isn't built for ANYTHING with a transfer case.


totally agree!




JIf people want to run the same trails on the same days, we just ask that they do it after the Event run takes place. I don't know the specifics of the Fordyce/Sierra Trek trail/event.


This is what has been done a Trek in years past. The simple fact is that there is no "Parade Permit" and thus they can't be denied access because out event is there.



I think we need to watch out terms in what we are saying here (myself being guilty:emb2:) We are talking about trail runs or specifically "RECREATION", not sport trips. I don't think any group event (unless billed as otherwise) should be a "proving ground" for anyone's rig.

Cal 4 is not into putting on a competition. It is a social gathering for RECREATIONAL purposes in order to raise funds and awareness of, or access to, the very trails we wish to RECREATE on.

If you want to flex your manliness (or femaleness for the ladies) by going extreme, then a trail run is not for you, this time 'round. Take a weekend and go flex it up on your own free time, then come hang out with everyone on a social trail run and tell us about your trip.

Make sure you embellish like a haggard ol' fisherman braggin' on the one that got away though or you are wastin' your breath and my time!:laughing::D

Let's explore this a bit, I'd like to hear a few more opinions. I'm not convinced one way or another.

For motorcycles and quads (and 4 Wheel Drives), there is CORVA. Blue Ribbon represents anything motorized. For specifically motorcycles, quads and dune buggies, there is ASA etc. There are several other organizations out there. CORVA and CA4WDC may be the only CA specific ones.

Should CA4WDC be a one size fits all organization? The plus side of excepting everyone is that there is more of a pool of potential members. The downside might be broadening the scope of issues that we try to represent in the political arena might dilute our attention to specific issues? More income, more responsibilities, a tough dilemma.

Or maybe you had another direction intended with your comment? To Trailerguy, do you have some specifics that you would like to see CA4WDC incorporate?

Note > I'll be off the computer for several hours, I won't be ignoring any responses.

I think what I'm getting at is that they are California Association of 4 Wheel Drive Clubs, Inc. To me, they are representing all clubs in California. But why should I push the Bloody Stump Wheelers to become a part of Cal4 if we can't even participate in the runs? Doesn't really make sense to me. That's why we as individuals make donations to whom we feel are accepting us as wheelers, and not some Nazi group.

I think we need to watch out terms in what we are saying here (myself being guilty:emb2:) We are talking about trail runs or specifically "RECREATION", not sport trips. I don't think any group event (unless billed as otherwise) should be a "proving ground" for anyone's rig.

Cal 4 is not into putting on a competition. It is a social gathering for RECREATIONAL purposes in order to raise funds and awareness of, or access to, the very trails we wish to RECREATE on.

If you want to flex your manliness (or femaleness for the ladies) by going extreme, then a trail run is not for you, this time 'round. Take a weekend and go flex it up on your own free time, then come hang out with everyone on a social trail run and tell us about your trip.

Make sure you embellish like a haggard ol' fisherman braggin' on the one that got away though or you are wastin' your breath and my time!:laughing::D

This is where I think many are mistaken. I loved going on Sierra Trek events. I never went to prove myself, just enjoy the time on the trail with others that I didn't know. Make friends, have fun, and laugh a little. Just because I drive a buggy doesn't mean I'm going to tear up the land and try to prove my "manliness" in front of everyone. This is where people get the wrong ideas and attitude against the more extreme rigs that are out there. I don't understand the total and complete sterotyping that takes place. There are times that I feel as if I'm black and living in the early to mid 1900's. And I'm sure that others that drive extreme rigs feel the same, and that is why Cal4 doesn't get their support.

example of what I mean: Just a few weeks ago TacomaJoe95 and myself went on a dirt road only run with a bunch of cops in their stock (pretty close to stock) jeeps and had nothing but a blast.

The problem lies in those who were not of the norm. Those who showed up first with there unconventional rigs and went off trail to go around the paying procession of attendees. Those few (I have personally seen this at many Treks in years past), set the visual that haunts many. Even I fear "that" idiot showing up. Because, let's face it, every event has at least one of them.:(

But when you have enough years in and there have been so many "idiots", I think it grates on people and they associate that "idiot" behavior with every yahoo that has a rig even close to the ones that have come before them. It is the accumulation of many scars that is hard to overcome.

It is the accumulation of many scars that is hard to overcome.

Tell me about it, that's what we are trying to overcome, the scars/sterotypes.

The vehicle restrictions are the only reason I have never been to a CA4WDC trail run. I pay to be a member regardless if I can do these runs and I feel like myself and everybody that I wheel with are being left out.

Take the Winter Fun Fest for example, something i would love to attend, there is really no reason why we could not find a trail run that 50% of the rigs could trailer to. I would absolutely love to go but my only option is the SUV runs. If I'm paying money to go on a run, it's not going to be in the Wifes' Xterra. I know I'm not the only one in this situation (obviously).

There are more and more Green Stickered rigs out there. It only makes sense for a lot of us. Why pay insurance and high registration fees for something that I only use 5-8 times a year, when I can pay $25 every two years on a vehicle that I would never drive on the streets even if I could. This is how us "younger" new school wheelers are doing things and CA4WDC needs to really deal with this or it will eventually fade away. Ever wonder why less and less people are showing up to events?

Look at the In Gear magazine, it is 95% Jeeps on 33-35's with your basic Bolton's. 80% of us out there are not what is in the magazine. It just shows what most of the higher ups in the organization are into. Maybe you should include some of the events at the Hammers or some of the newer style of trail rigs. But that would mean you would have to include us.

Pretty much what I'm saying and most everybody else is have some consideration for the way we do things and include us or try to include us and we will include ourselves. This is what will get the ball rolling again for the organization.

I will always support CA4WDC but I would also like to be supported by them. There are a lot of us that feel this way.

If people want to run the same trails on the same days, we just ask that they do it after the Event run takes place. I don't know the specifics of the Fordyce/Sierra Trek trail/event.
The reality is about the same during Sierra Trek, Steve... the attitude of the person who informs you can vary widely from "That's cool, jump in line behind" to "Get that &*^!# off the trail."

We need to be careful not to generalize -- I know some damn good Cal4 veterans who are cool with run-whatcha-brung and others that will turn up their nose at anything AMC-or-later. The trick is to target the behaviors for discussion without nuking the people who hold them...

Randii

The reality is about the same during Sierra Trek, Steve... the attitude of the person who informs you can vary widely from "That's cool, jump in line behind" to "Get that &*^!# off the trail."

We need to be careful not to generalize -- I know some damn good Cal4 veterans who are cool with run-whatcha-brung and others that will turn up their nose at anything AMC-or-later. The trick is to target the behaviors for discussion without nuking the people who hold them...

Randii

Randii,
You've always got a good way of putting things.

This is where I think many are mistaken. I loved going on Sierra Trek events. I never went to prove myself, just enjoy the time on the trail with others that I didn't know. Make friends, have fun, and laugh a little. Just because I drive a buggy doesn't mean I'm going to tear up the land and try to prove my "manliness" in front of everyone. This is where people get the wrong ideas and attitude against the more extreme rigs that are out there. I don't understand the total and complete sterotyping that takes place. There are times that I feel as if I'm black and living in the early to mid 1900's. And I'm sure that others that drive extreme rigs feel the same, and that is why Cal4 doesn't get their support.


Agreed. I built a Jeep that does not meet Sierra Trek standards not to show my "maniness" or how extreme I am, but only for strenght and the ablity to go places with out the consern of breakeage.

with that said... this is not intended to be a Sierra Trek debate, but a question of where CA4Wd is headed. I agree that we need to intragrate some "new school" influences. In Gear, Sierra Trek, Paniment, ect are all examples of CA4WD in the public eye and all of those are directed towards the more conservitive side of 4 wheeling. I think it would help CA4WD if they were to open up their events, mag, and politics to the more "extreme" rigs. There is a place of all of us in this sport/community. We need the TJ/CJ's on 33's owners and buggy's owners to work together for our common goal. We need power in numbers.

I think it would help CA4WD if they were to open up their events, mag, and politics to the more "extreme" rigs.

Write an article and submit it to the In Gear. It is not a closed magazine. Suzy Johnson (editor) is always looking for content.

People want changes in Cal 4 Wheel, write a By Law Proposal and submit it to the BOD. If you are not sure how to do it, someone in the organization will help you write it. Any Member can submit a Proposal, then actively solicit support for your change. Be prepared to back up the change. Proposals get voted in or out every year at Convention.

Propose an event that caters more to the Extreme side. But realize, you need to be ready to back it up with leadership. I have a feeling volunteers will follow but the followers need leaders.

Right now, the people putting on the events are stretched thin. New events and new ventures will take new blood. Some of the "old guys and gals" will surely help.

Insurance might be a concern, permits might be a concern as John Stewart mentioned. We don't know for sure until there is a reason to ask.

I have started a poll in the Nor Cal and So Cal sections to see just how much support we can generate for Cal4Wheel to accept the more extreme side of the sport. Here's the links:

And PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO VOTE

Nor-Cal forum (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596764)

So-Cal forum (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596765)

I have started a poll in the Nor Cal and So Cal sections to see just how much support we can generate for Cal4Wheel to accept the more extreme side of the sport. Here's the links:

And PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO VOTE

Nor-Cal forum (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596764)

So-Cal forum (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=596765)

I think, for many, it may well be more than the issue of extreme rig ostracization (is that even a word:laughing:). It also includes what is perceived as Cal44's abandonment, or lack of support for southern trails. For some it is the "politics". For others it is not being allowed a voice or given any import due to the hierarchy of Cal 4.

I've experienced some of this and waded through it, very . . . . . very slowly. I've talked to people who have experiences along these rationals and gone there separate way. Still others have never even ventured into the Cal 4 realm because of "what they've heard" or "read".

When I look back over my time with the association, I see some of the unfairness of the complaints. For many of the years since the Association was started, trail closures were a VERY distant, if not NON-issue. The Association didn't have the battles we have today.

They may have been slow out of the gate, but I think that back when the axes first started to fall, no one really thought it could actually happen. Who among us has never thought "no that wont happen" about something big, only to be horribly wrong.

The Sierra Clubs of this world started getting their influx of $$ long before Cal 4 and that influx is OBVIOUSLY far greater than Cal 4's. They launched their attacks before we, collectively, even saw it coming.

As for forestry budget cuts, perhaps the association should have seen that coming. I'm not too quick to lay that full burden at their feet though. I was associated with a club and thus Cal 4 when this all started and I remember going to the convention and north district meetings and hearing the fear in everyones voice about the impending path of closures. Back then, there was no money to lobby government. There was no John Stewart to voice our concerns and work on our behalf.

It took many months (perhaps even more than a year) to get funds coming in to support the efforts that Cal 4 wanted to put forth. Meanwhile, the greenies had donations coming in hand over fist and in staggering amounts. If anyone here thinks that empty pockets can win on capital hill and the forrestry dept. (which IS governmental), they are insane.

Fighting trail closure also requires lawyers. Anyone know a pro-bono (sp) who works to keep trail open?

So while your poll is cool (I already voted), the issues run deeper than just this subject. However, change starts with just one Lego added to another and so on. Before you know it, you have a really cool multicolored tower of power to ward off the enemy insurgents that hail from outside of Lego-land.:D

I think, for many, it may well be more than the issue of extreme rig ostracization (is that even a word:laughing:). It also includes what is perceived as Cal44's abandonment, or lack of support for southern trails. For some it is the "politics". For others it is not being allowed a voice or given any import due to the hierarchy of Cal 4.

I've experienced some of this and waded through it, very . . . . . very slowly. I've talked to people who have experiences along these rationals and gone there separate way. Still others have never even ventured into the Cal 4 realm because of "what they've heard" or "read".

When I look back over my time with the association, I see some of the unfairness of the complaints. For many of the years since the Association was started, trail closures were a VERY distant, if not NON-issue. The Association didn't have the battles we have today.

They may have been slow out of the gate, but I think that back when the axes first started to fall, no one really thought it could actually happen. Who among us has never thought "no that wont happen" about something big, only to be horribly wrong.

The Sierra Clubs of this world started getting their influx of $$ long before Cal 4 and that influx is OBVIOUSLY far greater than Cal 4's. They launched their attacks before we, collectively, even saw it coming.

As for forestry budget cuts, perhaps the association should have seen that coming. I'm not too quick to lay that full burden at their feet though. I was associated with a club and thus Cal 4 when this all started and I remember going to the convention and north district meetings and hearing the fear in everyones voice about the impending path of closures. Back then, there was no money to lobby government. There was no John Stewart to voice our concerns and work on our behalf.

It took many months (perhaps even more than a year) to get funds coming in to support the efforts that Cal 4 wanted to put forth. Meanwhile, the greenies had donations coming in hand over fist and in staggering amounts. If anyone here thinks that empty pockets can win on capital hill and the forrestry dept. (which IS governmental), they are insane.

Fighting trail closure also requires lawyers. Anyone know a pro-bono (sp) who works to keep trail open?

So while your poll is cool (I already voted), the issues run deeper than just this subject. However, change starts with just one Lego added to another and so on. Before you know it, you have a really cool multicolored tower of power to ward off the enemy insurgents that hail from outside of Lego-land.:D

I agree completely, there is way more than just the extreme side of the sport being accepted. But, if Cal4Wheel can accept them, then it is a start for Cal4Wheel to accept of wheeling user groups, thereby adding to it support group. Small steps equal into large leaps and bounds. This is just a start. And yes, I started the polls, and yes, I'm willing to go to Cal4Wheel meetings to help be a voice for this ever growing user group, the extreme wheelers.

Seems to me there are two ideas here with the non traditional rigs.

Having an event more directed at them. I'm not too sure how this would work out. Of course I'm thinking in terms of Trek and similar runs. I guess if an Cal sponsored event were held at the Hammers it would be applicable. That could be a lot of fun. There are already good examples of events held there that attract a lot of entrants. This could be a great way to get the buggy guys interested in Cal. Hmmm, maybe something to think about organizing in my spare time.:D

The other idea is the rigs that do not conform to the norm attending the traditional events like Trek. I'll state right now that I think the 80" rule is totally out of date. I am about 83" wide and I can do the trail without driving off trail or damaging anything. We are not saying these "extreme" (hate that designation by the way) need to be driven as such on Trek. I enjoy just rolling up the trail at a nice leisurely pace. I just don't need to stack or winch to do any of the obstacles on the trail. Keep in mind that any rig, no matter how it's built can be DRIVEN extreme. I have seen stockers go off trail and run over bushes and run into trees as well as buggies. I think the thing about the 80" rule that might bug some people is that is sometimes seems to be applied unevenly. I have seen many paid entrants of Trek come through that are over 80" but they are usually street legal Jeeps and that seems to make it ok.

Even I don't think that everyone needs to be able to go on every single trip. I just believe that an effort needs to be made to attempt to include more participants and make a place for everyone SOMEWHERE.

I love it when John Stewart posts. He contributes such great information and ideas. It is a valid point that sometimes it's not the event organizer that is making the rules. It's the agency that administers the land the event is on.

By the way, here is a little info one might find useful if one wants to become more involved and find out what's going on in your association.

P.S.- I won a bunch of great stuff in the raffle last time I went!

North District Meeting
July 21, 2007
9:00 AM



Hosted by Napa Valley Jeepers

Location:
CA4WDC Office
8120 36th Avenue
Sacramento, Ca
916 381-8300

Lunch and 50/50 Raffle. The lunch will consist of hamburgers, etc. We wil also have coffee, rols/donuts in the morning for a donation.

Directions:

From Hwy 50 - Exit Power Inn Road South - Cross over Fruitridge Road - Left on 36th Avenue

From Hwy 99 - Exit Florin Road East - Left on Power Inn Road North - Right on 36th Avenue.

Seems to me there are two ideas here with the non traditional rigs.

Having an event more directed at them. I'm not too sure how this would work out. Of course I'm thinking in terms of Trek and similar runs. I guess if an Cal sponsored event were held at the Hammers it would be applicable. That could be a lot of fun. There are already good examples of events held there that attract a lot of entrants. This could be a great way to get the buggy guys interested in Cal. Hmmm, maybe something to think about organizing in my spare time.:D

The other idea is the rigs that do not conform to the norm attending the traditional events like Trek. I'll state right now that I think the 80" rule is totally out of date. I am about 83" wide and I can do the trail without driving off trail or damaging anything. We are not saying these "extreme" (hate that designation by the way) need to be driven as such on Trek. I enjoy just rolling up the trail at a nice leisurely pace. I just don't need to stack or winch to do any of the obstacles on the trail. Keep in mind that any rig, no matter how it's built can be DRIVEN extreme. I have seen stockers go off trail and run over bushes and run into trees as well as buggies. I think the thing about the 80" rule that might bug some people is that is sometimes seems to be applied unevenly. I have seen many paid entrants of Trek come through that are over 80" but they are usually street legal Jeeps and that seems to make it ok.

Even I don't think that everyone needs to be able to go on every single trip. I just believe that an effort needs to be made to attempt to include more participants and make a place for everyone SOMEWHERE.

I love it when John Stewart posts. He contributes such great information and ideas. It is a valid point that sometimes it's not the event organizer that is making the rules. It's the agency that administers the land the event is on.

By the way, here is a little info one might find useful if one wants to become more involved and find out what's going on in your association.

P.S.- I won a bunch of great stuff in the raffle last time I went!

North District Meeting
July 21, 2007
9:00 AM



Hosted by Napa Valley Jeepers

Location:
CA4WDC Office
8120 36th Avenue
Sacramento, Ca
916 381-8300

Lunch and 50/50 Raffle. The lunch will consist of hamburgers, etc. We wil also have coffee, rols/donuts in the morning for a donation.

Directions:

From Hwy 50 - Exit Power Inn Road South - Cross over Fruitridge Road - Left on 36th Avenue

From Hwy 99 - Exit Florin Road East - Left on Power Inn Road North - Right on 36th Avenue.

I would like to go to the meeting. I think that right now they are going to be focused on the Sierra Trek and what to do now, but I wouldn't mind being there.

I also agree, that the word extreme might now be the best to describe this style of user group, but what else would one use? Most of us do call ourselves extreme rock crawlers or extreme wheelers. Really, we are just glorified wheelers, kind-a-sort-a.

North District Meeting
July 21, 2007
9:00 AM



Hosted by Napa Valley Jeepers

Location:
CA4WDC Office
8120 36th Avenue
Sacramento, Ca
916 381-8300

Lunch and 50/50 Raffle. The lunch will consist of hamburgers, etc. We wil also have coffee, rols/donuts in the morning for a donation.

Directions:

From Hwy 50 - Exit Power Inn Road South - Cross over Fruitridge Road - Left on 36th Avenue

From Hwy 99 - Exit Florin Road East - Left on Power Inn Road North - Right on 36th Avenue.

This was also going to be a Trek Prep day. :(

I also agree, that the word extreme might now be the best to describe this style of user group, but what else would one use?


How bout "well built"?:D

A couple of comments have mentioned events catering to challenging trails for highly modified rigs and specifically mentioned the Hammers....

As all Cal4 events are organized and staffed by volunteers, someone needs to step forward. If you are interested in the Hammers as a location, start here to reserve a spot:

http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/barstow/permits.html

Barstow BLM has oversight of Johnson Valley and Stoddard Wells OHV Areas. Both are popular with a variety of recreation events. And, as available weekends are at a premium, a lottery system for weekend dates is in place.

The above link provides a phone number for the Barstow office for interested parties to check on date availabilities.

If anyone has specific questions, send me a PM as I will have infrequent internet access for the next couple of weeks.

I will be at the Cal4 Central District meeting in Hanford on Jul 14 and South District meeting in Rancho Cucamonga on Jul 28. (And a few other places in between.)

How bout "well built"?:D

Super Stock.

Super Modified.

Loose the idea of "extreme", because I didn't build mine to be "extreme", I did it to make it "super reliable" when I'm off on a trail, and I don't have to worry about sheet metal.

Super Stock.

Super Modified.

Loose the idea of "extreme", because I didn't build mine to be "extreme", I did it to make it "super reliable" when I'm off on a trail, and I don't have to worry about sheet metal.

See now your using competition terms and that wont work. But nice try at cleverness!!!:laughing:

Yea, true, but what terms either

1) mean built to handle more than normal..
2) yet not shoddy looking.

"well built" is in the eyes of the beholder/owner..

do you want to call it "sheetmetalremovedtoprotectittubedfordentresistance drivetrainupgradedtopreventbreakage"?

:D

How about "Trail Rated"? :laughing:

Actually, I think I prefer a simple "built rigs" which differentiates from "stock"

By the way, here is a little info one might find useful if one wants to become more involved and find out what's going on in your association.

P.S.- I won a bunch of great stuff in the raffle last time I went!

North District Meeting
July 21, 2007
9:00 AM



Hosted by Napa Valley Jeepers

Location:
CA4WDC Office
8120 36th Avenue
Sacramento, Ca
916 381-8300

Lunch and 50/50 Raffle. The lunch will consist of hamburgers, etc. We wil also have coffee, rols/donuts in the morning for a donation.

Directions:

From Hwy 50 - Exit Power Inn Road South - Cross over Fruitridge Road - Left on 36th Avenue

From Hwy 99 - Exit Florin Road East - Left on Power Inn Road North - Right on 36th Avenue.

Is this open to the public (curently non-cal4 memebers)? I would be interesting to see how they organize and operate their meetings first hand.

Is this open to the public (curently non-cal4 memebers)? I would be interesting to see how they organize and operate their meetings first hand.

Yes, they are open to everyone. Heck, even I'm going to try and get down there for next Sat. And if they let me it, they'll let anybody in.

I'd love to see that word get thrown away.... Hell my rig is really no different then most of the TJ's I see on the trail! Mine just has no body and bigger tires :D

I think we should all just be called wheelers. Just because my rig is bigger then yours doesn't make it "extreme". :p

Robert's Rules of Order. It's pretty much business and boring.

If you have a specific subject you want to discuss, you need to get it on the agenda under new business. We often have guests (non members) speak at meetings in the South District.

I wonder if they will discuss the Sierra Trek cancellation? <- rhetorical

I'd love to see that word get thrown away.... Hell my rig is really no different then most of the TJ's I see on the trail! Mine just has no body and bigger tires :D

I think we should all just be called wheelers. Just because my rig is bigger then yours doesn't make it "extreme". :p

Then maybe they should be refered to as "New Generation Crawlers", the rigs not the people (thinking of Tinman:laughing:) Just an idea.

Robert's Rules of Order. It's pretty much business and boring.

If you have a specific subject you want to discuss, you need to get it on the agenda under new business. We often have guests (non members) speak at meetings in the South District.

I wonder if they will discuss the Sierra Trek cancellation? <- rhetorical

No wwaaaaayyyyy. They won't be discussing Sierra Trek at all.

Yeah, I'm going to get familiar with it all again. It has been years. I don't want to speak of the rig limits or Cal4Wheel views about the "NGC's" at this meeting because everyones minds will be in other places. There is a time and place for everything and next Saturday's meeting will not be the time.