Some of you may or may not be able to make the week night meetings. You can still make your comments count! A casual meet and greet kinda thing will be on.....

DATE HAS BEEN CHANGED TO.....AUG 11th
3pm-??
Pollock Pines

It's not an "official" forest meeting, but come and learn how to correctly write you letter/comments. Get to know others, that care about what is happening to our forest, and really want to be involved!

For those who don't get the whole picture of what's happening, we will have maps to help you understand. We all need to be on the same page!! We need your support:) Even if you just want to hang out and be social:)

Bring the kids and we'll see you there!!

It will be a potluck, so post up what you want to bring, I will update as we go..

Main dish
Side dish
Munchies or
drink...


Please PM me for further details:)

Who's bringing what:

Jen & Eric-fruit salad &?
Lisa & Alfred- Pizza & Beer
Poose
WLDWUN & family
Kurt?
Randy
John (resqme)?
Atvobsession
Bear?
Makya & family
MrBill2
Rockwrangler
Ford4x4chik27
BLINGN
Cruzila

Great IDEA! Thanks I will spead the word.. See ya!
can we set up more then one of these???

I work at Robb's Resort if you need a place we could help.. long way but thats all I got

[QUOTE=Sluice Sally;

It will be a potluck, so post up what you want to bring, I will update as we go..

Main dish
Side dish
Munchies or
drink...

Please PM me for further details:)[/QUOTE]



You know Alfred and I will be there. We have a family reunion in Placerville that day, but we will try and scoot out of there a little early.
I'll bring a few pizzas... Alfred wants to know if we can bring beer.:D

Alfred wants to know if we can bring beer.:D

Bring it:D:D:D:D:D

We'll have some too!

Why does everyone plan all the fun when I cannot be there?

I get the hint. :flipoff2:

Unfortunatley I'll be on the Jeep Jambo that day passin out flyers, making speeches, drinking and talking everyone's ears off about Route Dez....

Why does everyone plan all the fun when I cannot be there?

I get the hint. :flipoff2:

Unfortunatley I'll be on the Jeep Jambo that day passin out flyers, making speeches, drinking and talking everyone's ears off about Route Dez....

of course I will not be there either, I will be right next to Kurt with the shirt thats says "Im with Stupid":flipoff2:

I will ask some friends in the area to go also

of course I will not be there either, I will be right next to Kurt with the shirt thats says "Im with Stupid":flipoff2:

I will ask some friends in the area to go also


You have a Clamper shirt that says "I'm with Stupid?" :flipoff2:

You have a Clamper shirt that says "I'm with Stupid?" :flipoff2:


Hey you two.....quit hijacking my thread:flipoff2:

Sorry you won't be here.........Hey Lisa, we won't have to buy so much beer:D

I'll bring the macaroni salad - Side dish:D

Hey you two.....quit hijacking my thread:flipoff2:

Sorry you won't be here.........Hey Lisa, we won't have to buy so much beer:D

Calmpers are comin???? One more n' we got a meetin of our own .:D

J/K Jen

Bump for the morning shift:)

Great idea, but I'll be at Jambo....

hint: reschedule it?

Great idea, but I'll be at Jambo....

hint: reschedule it?

Kurt and I are on the Jamboree that day too, we would like to meet up with you.
also maybe we can have more than one of these "town meetings"

I can make it! :D

Can't make the 11th, grrr, oh well, maybe another time.

Kurt and I are on the Jamboree that day too, we would like to meet up with you.
also maybe we can have more than one of these "town meetings"

Maybe we can do a Rubicon BS meeting the the Pville Brewery....anyone have a date in mind?

Or does anyone have a better date in mind for the gathering up here? I just dont want to wait too long, if you know what I mean.

Maybe we can do a Rubicon BS meeting the the Pville Brewery....anyone have a date in mind?

Or does anyone have a better date in mind for the gathering up here? I just dont want to wait too long, if you know what I mean.

What about the 11th? Might be a good idea if we can't get enough people to attend on the 4th.

I can do the 11th...

I can do the 11th as well.....but we need someone here that REALLY knows what needs to be done, that can help those of us understand this whole mess:D. Im pretty sure Bebe is out that day.

Kurt, Rick or Randy..are any of you guy's around that day?

I can do the 11th also

Kurt is in Vegas till tomorrow night, I will call him when he gets back

Hope this works out...it's a great idea. I think a lot of people don't comment because they are scared of the process. This will definitely help.

I am in Vegas right now on one of those "pay to get on the internet" machines.. I HAD to rub it in. I am up $200, but I will blow it tonight at the strip c......, uh, BAR. I am at Ballys.....

I will have to double check with the big boss on the 11th, but I do not foresee a problem..

Rick or BEBE, could you guys forward the smaller MS word flyer to all those people posting in that other thread? PLEASE?

I'll be back in the country on the 11th.
I should be available...

Randii

I am in Vegas right now on one of those "pay to get on the internet" machines.. I HAD to rub it in. I am up $200, but I will blow it tonight at the strip c......, uh, BAR. I am at Ballys.....

I will have to double check with the big boss on the 11th, but I do not foresee a problem..

Rick or BEBE, could you guys forward the smaller MS word flyer to all those people posting in that other thread? PLEASE?


I'm on it.

Jackie, can you do the 11th??? I think you said you were booked:confused:

Jackie, can you do the 11th??? I think you said you were booked:confused:


Nope, trail leading 26 rigs on Deer Valley that day....can't break away. No worries, I'll catch up with everyone at the Route Des meetings.

We seem to have more able to come on the 11th, so I'm changing the date. Sorry for any problems with the change.

NEW DATE: Sat Aug 11th

3pm - ?
Pollock Pines



So now that more are coming, let me know what you want to bring:). Pm me for more details:)

Hey Jen, you want to post this in the rubicon forum, and the nor cal forum as well? Might get more of an audience than the land use regulars.

Hey Jen, you want to post this in the rubicon forum, and the nor cal forum as well? Might get more of an audience than the land use regulars.


I have it in the Nor cal forum, but I can put it Rubi forum:). Good idea.

Bump

Cant make it, on duty that day, great idea. Should be a large showing tonite in Placeville.

Jen,
I will also make copies of the forest service blank comment form, I'll bring a bunch of pens as well. Let me know if there is anything else we need to think of.

Jen,
I will also make copies of the forest service blank comment form, I'll bring a bunch of pens as well. Let me know if there is anything else we need to think of.

Where can I get this comment form "I missed something"

Where can I get this comment form "I missed something"

They gave some out at the Placerville meeting. It's just a blank form for making comments on. If you want, I can scan it and email it to you.

You missed nothing, Jerry. The form is incredibly simple (attached below).

Key elements that they have:
* forest name: Eldorado National Forest
* process name: Travel Management (a.k.a. Route Designation)
* title: DEIS Comments
* contact info (name, address, email)
* note
* comment
Any letter with the first four items and a substantive comment will HAVE to be responded to in the Final EIS.

They also have a blank for the Location/Date of their public meeting.

Randii

Any letter with the first four items and a substantive comment will HAVE to be responded to in the Final EIS.
Randii
So does this mean we are guaranteed that somebody will actually read our letters and they will not be ignored? Should we send our letters ceritfied mail to have record of delivery?

So does this mean we are guaranteed that somebody will actually read our letters and they will not be ignored? Should we send our letters ceritfied mail to have record of delivery?
I'll be sending mine electronically, to their email: comments-pacificsouthwest-eldorado@fs.fed.us (and probably also printing out an aggregate, just to be sure they don't 'lose' any of them).

Acceptable formats for electronic comments are plain text (.txt), rich text (.rtf), or Word (.doc).

This email has an auto-responder built into it, and I'll keep the reply email as a receipt.

I won't be able to afford the number of stamps this would otherwise take...

Randii

They gave some out at the Placerville meeting. It's just a blank form for making comments on. If you want, I can scan it and email it to you.

You missed nothing, Jerry. The form is incredibly simple (attached below).

Key elements that they have:
* forest name: Eldorado National Forest
* process name: Travel Management (a.k.a. Route Designation)
* title: DEIS Comments
* contact info (name, address, email)
* note
* comment
Any letter with the first four items and a substantive comment will HAVE to be responded to in the Final EIS.

They also have a blank for the Location/Date of their public meeting.

Randii


Thanks guys I think I can make one up on the old Computer to match that one or use Randii's elect sheet idea. I've been passing out flyers like crazzzzzy to get people informed.

11th, no go for me, meeting with bosses @1 work @3. Wish I could be there to support the fight but I'll be fighting from here!

11th, no go for me, meeting with bosses @1 work @3. Wish I could be there to support the fight but I'll be fighting from here!

You're only 45 mins away...come awn down after:D

Bump.......flag me down at the Folsom meeting tonight & let me know you are coming:p

We'll bring our 4' x 3' Route Maps for each alternative. We'll need a wall!

Does anyone have one of those big easels I could borrow?

I apologize for the hijack, but I am in San Diego and it appears that the
best way I can help is by writing letters. I was reading that they wanted you
to argue to keep specific routes open. Unforunately I am unfamiliar with most
of the trails in question. Any advise on what I can do? Or possibly post or email me a sample. jacob.myer@dotworkz.com

I appreciate the work youguys are putting in and would like to help.

I'm curious about a universal letter as well. I think one thing we all need to know is how do we "be specific" about trails we want on the map? Are they looking for trail name, road # (if there is one designated to every trail), GPS coordinates... Has anyone asked this question yet? I'll ask tonite in Concord and post here if it gets answered. This would be key to having any chance of getting trails put back on the map.

Here's one I helped compose for a friend in Auburn Jeep Club:

It is critical that the McKinstry access to the Rubicon trail (with elements including/connecting 14N05 and 14N34B) be retained for public acces west of Ellis Creek. Please note that this is NOT the occasional connection used for Forest Service administrative access from the log landing at the end of 14N05 to the Rubicon Trail, east of Ellis Creek.

Auburn Jeep Club has worked closely with Friends of the Rubicon to substantiate historic travel dating back to almost the 1800s.
* A hand-drawn forest service map from 1937 clearly shows access to the Rubicon Trail crossing at Ellis Creek from north of McKinstry Lake.
* A 1950 printed forest service quad-map of the Georgetown District of Eldorado National Forest clearly shows a dashed line connecting access to Ellis, Bugle, & McKinstry.
* The 1974 USFS Map of Eldorado National Forest printed map clearly shows a dashed line between Guide Peak and Jerret Peak connecting Ellis, Bugle, & McKinstry along the SW shore of Ellis Creek. This route is clearly labeled in red as 4WD access. All of these maps document and display access before the critical 1977 deadline -- well before the FLPMA withdrawal of right-of-way creation. Friends of the Rubicon has collected written testimonials from multiple users who have accessed the Rubicon Trail from McKinstry regularly for the past 50 years. These are numbered Forest Service roads that our club and families have used for generations.

Accordingly, we suggest the following revisions to the Eldorado National Forest Route Designation Draft EIS maps:
* for all alternatives, include the length of 14N34B on Forest Land -- it is a part of the historic access from McKinstry Lake to Ellis Creek and additionally allows access to well-established dispersed camping on Forest Service lands near Ellis Creek. 14N34B is valuable not just as a through-way, but also to provide legal parking on or adjacent to this spur, safely off the Rubicon Trail itself.
* for all alternatives, include the segments of 14N05 on public land -- it, too is part of the historic access from McKinstry Lake to Ellis Creek. 14N05 also accesses hiking trail 15E02 down to the creek and then on down to Hellhole and generally provides best access to the saddle between Jerret and Guide Peaks.
As discussed above, access dates back well over half-a-century, even without a formal right-of-way across the SPI section. Auburn Jeep Club, Friends of the Rubicon, and Rubicon Trail Foundation are working together to obtain access from Sierra Pacific Industries, either through easement or purchase. Solid public claim exists prior to Sierra Pacific Industry's ownership of the section that contains McKinstry Lake, and a portion of Ellis Creek. Altogether, 14N34B from the south, 14N05 from the north, and the connection across SPI land represent an important access claim -- even without the formal right-of-way, the Forest Service must designate the 14N05 and 14N34B elements for access. Either route is important and worthy of designation by itself -- taken together they form an important historic right-of-way for access to the Auburn Jeep Club private property and the Rubicon Trail.

I and the other members of Auburn Jeep club will resolutely defend our right to access the Rubicon Trail and our private property near Ellis Creek via 14N05 and 14N34B.

<reference map included>


This is *WAY* more detail than you need... I've been loading up on this access for YEARS.

A basic format is this:
* state what you want: be specific -- cite specific FS reference numbers
* say why you want it
. . - desire continued public access to a specific region/resource
. . - substantiate your history of travel with dates
. . - lather, rinse, repeat
* wrap it up and state what you want again

Del has a good article on letter-writing, if someone can provide a link...

Randii

Here's the letter writing link. Thanks for the direct!!!!

http://www.delalbright.com/Articles/letters.htm#Anchor-22456

Looks like i'll be driving up for your letter writing get together:D
got someone to cover my on-call for the day

Here's one I helped compose for a friend in Auburn Jeep Club:

This is *WAY* more detail than you need... I've been loading up on this access for YEARS.

A basic format is this:
* state what you want: be specific -- cite specific FS reference numbers
* say why you want it
. . - desire continued public access to a specific region/resource
. . - substantiate your history of travel with dates
. . - lather, rinse, repeat
* wrap it up and state what you want again

Del has a good article on letter-writing, if someone can provide a link...

Randii

Thanks Randy!

When I brought this to the meeting last night it absolutley got their attention. How could I tell? The room got absolutley silent. I think we finally got their attention.

I took maps A & D, Kurt's flyer, comment forms and copies of the letter you helped with. I informed them that they couldn't use the letter as is and that they must individualize it. The best comment was that I didn't bring enough copies, so at this weekends slide show of our main trip where all of our guests will be, there will be ample copies of all of the above.

Thanks again,

Dennis

Thanks again...
You and Auburn Jeep Club (AJC) are most welcome, Dennis.

The public claim to McKinstry access is much richer and stronger for the inclusion of AJC into the fight as property owners and long-standing users of the trail. It would be crazy for FOTR to *not* step up to assist AJC in this battle for continued public access.

FOTR has collected and compiled maps from Doug Barr, Dick Wentworth, Merlin Scott, Auburn Jeep Club, and others to stage for the fight to retain access to Rubicon -- including historic access from the North around McKinstry Lake.

Strong letters during this Route Dez process help solidify this access! Individuals and organizations working together -- yep, that's FOTR. :cool2:

Randii

Was wondering, with all the letter writing, and the specific trails/spurs that are going to have to be identified, there a going to be a couple of trails/spurs that get mentioned alot (the big name one's) and some not at all. How can we go about making sure that all get mentioned/identified. It will have to be monitored? Because if they aren't in writing, they really dont stand a chance.
Just a thought, hopefully this has not been addressed and I just missed it.

Sorry cant make it but am on-duty that day. :shaking:
Thanks

Here's a link to the dirt bike side and letter draft..

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=537702

Was wondering, with all the letter writing, and the specific trails/spurs that are going to have to be identified, there a going to be a couple of trails/spurs that get mentioned alot (the big name one's) and some not at all. How can we go about making sure that all get mentioned/identified. It will have to be monitored? Because if they aren't in writing, they really dont stand a chance.
Just a thought, hopefully this has not been addressed and I just missed it.

Sorry cant make it but am on-duty that day. :shaking:
Thanks


Hopefully, with Randy, Kurt and Rick here that day, some of those will be spurs will be identified. I admit, I can't read those maps....another reason this get together is important:)...sorry you cant make it

Did anyone pick up a copy of the comment form they had at the Pleasant Hill meeting? It looked different than the one posted in this thread. I didn't see one on the tables as I walked out (I wasn't looking for it at the time, but would have liked them to be everywhere so we could all pick some up). I wanna copy of it to print out, please.

I'll be there I think... gotta talk to the boss first :D


Cougarfreak, you mean this one??
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Ford4x4Chik27/?action=view&current=DEISCOMMENTSHEET.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/Ford4x4Chik27/DEISCOMMENTSHEET.jpg

Yes, Thank you very much!!! For some reason I remembered it looking different in the slide he showed at the beginning of the meeting. The comments section was in a big square.... Dammit, the perfectionist in me is rearing it's ugly head again!!! Sorry, I'd imagine this one has all the same info as the other and will work just as well. Thanks again!!!

WITH THE FS UNDER COURT ORDER, WE HAVE UNTIL SEPTEMBER 4TH TO GET IN OUR COMMENTS ON ALL CALIFORNIA FOREST ROUTES WE WANT TO KEEP ON THE MAPS, NOT JUST ELDO!!!!! :eek: We need to get ahold of all Forest maps and look at routes in other forests as well.

You can find the route numbers for Eldorado NF under app.F Alt.D routes and cross reference them to map 12 here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/...eis/index.shtml (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/route/deis/index.shtml)

All of California's National forests are listed here: A similar form to the one below can be sent to any of the National Forests whose addresses can be found on their respective web sites.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/forests.html

for Eldorado Forest: PRINT THIS OUT, FILL IT OUT, AND SEND IT IN!!!!

http://www.cougarfreakphoto.com/files/route%20DEIS%20comments%20sheet.jpg

Thank you for reposting that... I couldn't seem to get it out of .pdf into a clearer image.

No, no, thank you!!! I insist! :)

Good notes from our friends working the Sequoia NF Route Dez process... many of these relate to their NOI but relate equally well to our Draft EIS.

The agency may or may not respond to scoping comments, but they are obligated to respond to comments on the draft EIS.

In the most recent NOI from Sequoia the language (on comments, in general) has been changed to:

“Substantive comments may include things other than thoughts or feelings; they may also be factual, new information, corrections, etc. Comments will be most helpful if they are within the scope of the proposed action, specific to the proposed action, have a direct relationship to the proposed action, and include supporting reasons for the responsible official to consider".
1. “Comments must be specific to the proposed action” - The comments must be specific. Broad, general statements are not likely to be considered. Statements based on opinion or conjecture are usually not accepted.
2. “Comments must be within the scope of the proposed action” This means that comments must fall within “ the range of actions, alternatives, and impacts”. Further defined, actions may be “connected, cumulative, or similar”, alternatives are “reasonable courses of action or no action”, and impacts are “direct, indirect, or cumulative”. (40 CFR 1508) Comments must therefore address issues or concerns regarding each of the proposed action statements in terms that meet these definitions.
3. “Comments must have a direct relationship to the proposed action” - Comments must be pertinent and related to a cause or effect of the proposed action, as it is described in the NOI.
4. “Comments should include supporting information” - Comments must have a factual basis and should reference Forest Service documents such as Forest plans, the Forest Service Handbook or Manual, governmental documents such as NEPA regulations, or scientific studies...

Comments must raise a point of “disagreement, debate, or dispute with the proposed action”. Although one can disagree with or dispute the findings of a Forest Service specialist, one must be aware that the agency is very reluctant to disregard the findings of its own staff and such claims must be substantiated by scientific studies or other documentation.

It must be possible to resolve “significant issues” through “alternatives or mitigation.” It is not enough to simply raise an issue, there must also be a solution to the problem or a better way to accomplish the action. One of the purposes of the NEPA process is to identify the best resolution of a problem...