With the way things are going:mad3: With the Route Des.

After handing out 30+ flyers on the Slick rock trail this last weekend!! And finding out that everyone I talked to, had NO IDEA of what's happening!
Made me start thinking that we OHV trail users better start thinking about what were going to do once the 45 day comment peroid is over.

Once the Forest service makes there Record Of Decision public and we find out what amount of access we are going to lose. We will need to be ready as a user group to File a LAW SUIT!!! A LAW SUIT maybe the only way to stop this poor excuse of a LAND GRAB to make more wilderness.
So this fight may have to come out of our wallets, unless WE the users get off our rearends and start doing something about it.

From my incounter this past weekend we need more people involved.

For me! All give all I have to keep our access to PUBLIC lands open! MY MONEY AND MY TIME!!!!!

From what I have heard....BRC is SUPPOSED to be filing a lawsuit against it as soon as the "final final" map is picked....

If NONE of the routes that I requested are put on the map, I would like to sue, it just depends on how much $$. I have a feeling we are going to argue for all these routes and the FS will not change anything...THEN we would have better ground to stand on with a lawsuit.

oh, and the FS cannot tell me, then went down EVERY single trail and determined a problem with it. If they did, why do they not list those problems in the DEIS? That's a problem for us, if we are not told WHY a road is being closed, how can we argue for it to be opened?

That's like being put on trial for a crime, but they do not tell you what crime you committed, so how can you defend yourself?

Anyone know a lawer that would work pro-bono on this?

Depending on how much I have in the bank at the time, I plan on donating a large chunk to the fund... A lawsuit is INEVITABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then we need to get the money to BRC or the CAL4 fund. They are the intervenors and have the standing to do this battle. Kurt can sell his house and live in the streets and still not have enough. (Sorry Kurt, used you as an example....)

I am MORE than willing to lead a fund-raising campaign.

(and NO, i am NOT selling my house in Disco :flipoff2:)

If Whitford can organize the whole "Cantina on the 'Con" for FOTR, I can pull this off..... I've got a freakin Masters degree in communication. (Plus with my new little "side" job, I could really get the word out :D)

But I need to know....

Is BRC going to file a lawsuit FOR SURE? Is someone else? Who do we send $$ to?

Maybe if we held some type of event that could draw not just 4x4 guys like us, but the MX crowd, hunters, fishermen, etc...

I'd hit up vendors and shops for raffle items...

Lance, what about some type of PBB sponsored event? Would you guys be willing to do that? I would need help from SOMEONE....anyone willling?

I am MORE than willing to lead a fund-raising campaign.

(and NO, i am NOT selling my house in Disco :flipoff2:)

If Whitford can organize the whole "Cantina on the 'Con" for FOTR, I can pull this off..... I've got a freakin Masters degree in communication. (Plus with my new little "side" job, I could really get the word out :D)

But I need to know....

Is BRC going to file a lawsuit FOR SURE? Is someone else? Who do we send $$ to?

Maybe if we held some type of event that could draw not just 4x4 guys like us, but the MX crowd, hunters, fishermen, etc...

I'd hit up vendors and shops for raffle items...

Lance, what about some type of PBB sponsored event? Would you guys be willing to do that? I would need help from SOMEONE....anyone willling?

I'm game... HOWEVER... I want to know what organization is going to sue... We need to know who we are supporting, beforehand.

I'm game... HOWEVER... I want to know what organization is going to sue... We need to know who we are supporting, beforehand.

Agreed. I'll make some calls, e-mails and check around..

Randii, any ideas?

This is how I understand it so far:

1) We are currently in the DRAFT EIS public Comment Period. 7/20-9/4. Those who don’t write in and have their comments registered during this period, will NOT BE ALLOWED to comment during the Final EIS comment period, (which will be sometime around 12/31/07).

THIS IS IT, SPEAK NOW OR FOREVER BE SILENCED DURING THE REMAINDER OF THE PROCESS

2) When the Final EIS is completed, (sometime before 12/31/07) there will be another 45-day “APPEAL” period. Only those who participate in THE DRAFT EIS 45 day comment period, 7/20 - 9/4, will be allowed to comment in the Final EIS Public comment period.

3) When the Final Final EIS is published in the Federal Register, then and only then, will we have any reasonable grounds to file a lawsuit.


We need everyone to participate is this part of the process, it is not wise for us to sit back and wait for this part of the process to be finished so we can file a lawsuit.

We need to be as effective as possible now. Lawsuits are VERY EXPENSIVE!!! And it’s not guaranteed it will be effective. Just because we file one, does not mean we will win.

HOWEVER, I feel confident that if we need to file, BRC, CORVA, Cal4WD, UFWD will be the org’s to do so.

This is our best chance to save our trails via the process in front of us today.

Bebe had the order right -- we have to finish up the due diligence piece and feedback to the Draft EIS.

Kurt, the best-positioned folks to sue will be the intervenors (includes Friends of the Rubicon, BlueRibbon Coalition, California Association of 4 Wheel Drive Clubs, California Off Road Vehicle Association, District 36 of the American Motorcyclist's Association, El Dorado Equestrian Trails Foundation, and We the People) from the original lawsuit, separate of Route Dez

... but anyone who has truly worked the Route Dez process has standing to appeal that, as well. As convoluted as this may seem, there are two different paths to appeal: 1.) how the lawsuit was settled, and 2.) how Route Designation was implemented on the Eldorado National Forest...

Randii

OK,

Should we get something going NOW to generate money??

Should I contact EACH of those groups and ask thier input?

I have a meeting this weekend with Cal4Wheel. John Stewart usually attends these meetings. I will print this thread and ask his opinion. Then again, he may respond to this thread as well.

Once again if you need us I am sure Robb's Resort would be happy to help in whatever way we can...just let me know.

Then we need to get the money to BRC or the CAL4 fund. They are the intervenors and have the standing to do this battle. Kurt can sell his house and live in the streets and still not have enough. (Sorry Kurt, used you as an example....)

Scott
I'll sell my house if I can park the RV at your place:D:D FOREVER
Jerry

EDIT: I will need full hook-up 50AMP, Water, Sewer,Hi speed data-Direct TV

Agreed. I'll make some calls, e-mails and check around..

Randii, any ideas?

I think we should wait till the Final EIS is out before we jump fully into The Law suit charge, But it is something I see coming and thought it should be talked about in an open forum.
We need to keep the push on getting more people informed of what is presently going on and how people can get involved. I would think BRC, CAL and maybe some other groups that have some backing will lead the charge if needed, But without our support they can only do so much.
Jerry

Now, we're talking! :)
Here's the bottom line, nitty gritty as I see it. No offense intended to anyone or any organization. But a lawsuit is probably inevitable, and probably BRC will be the only organization poised to file it.

But that is AFTER the Record of Decision (ROD) and perhaps even an appeal of the ROD. The money will be needed and quite frankly is needed right now.

BRC, with Cal4 helping as best they can, is leading the current Eldorado Lawsuit. Cal4's attorney, Dennis Porter is deep in the mix too. I can't speak for the Cal4 Board, but I suspect they'll be watching our pennies after losing Trek. So we'll be looking to BlueRibbon.

Be that as it may, donating to the Legal Defense Fund, BlueRibbon Coalition, or the Cal4 Legal Fund, EARMARKED for the Eldorado Lawsuit is ALWAYS a good plan. We need a war chest.

The public meetings and public comment letters need to have BRC, Cal4, FOTR, etc. after as many names as we can get. IN order to file a lawsuit, the organization must have lots of standing (names on rosters and on letters with that organization listed).

If you can't donate to the legal cause right now, make sure you are at least a member of BRC and Cal4.

For sure we must BAND together right now and fight to keep our access -- not fight with each other. Find ways to unite the cause and the troops. It's our only salvation in my humble opinion.
Del

Scott
I'll sell my house if I can park the RV at your place:D:D FOREVER
Jerry

EDIT: I will need full hook-up 50AMP, Water, Sewer,Hi speed data-Direct TV


done









:flipoff2:

I have been struggling with connection issues for 2 days after Cox changed my assigned configuration. Everything is back in operation and people seem to be cranking out some suggestion indicating time to file a lawsuit.

Well, its not that easy.....

For starters, it appears as everyone is on track with getting a range of comments submitted.

Good. That is necessary.

Next, approach your comments as if your were preparing to file a lawsuit. Specifically, the comments need to point out a legal issue, science issue, or some other fact that is not being addressed.

Actions to be included in an EIS can be cumulative; i.e. each issue does not stand alone; impact of one can be included in another to increase the impact.

Del's comments are appropriate.

I will not try to second guess which will be the lead organization in filling a lawsuit. It does depend on if there is just cause after the Record of Decision is signed.

That means that if it IS NOT addressed in the EIS comment period, it cannot be introduced in a court of law.

So, your comments need to be complete, inclusive, plentiful, and have bearing on the scope of the EIS. When in doubt, include it.

Make sure your issues are clearly stated and supported with an in-depth discussion. For example, if the issue is a stream crossing that may clsoe the trail, point out that the stream crossing can be engineered to mitigate (reduce) the impacts by installation of culvert, sediment catch basin, hardening the crossing, etc.

While the topic is very emotional, leave the emotion out of your comments.

WRT legal funds.....

Join an organization and donate!!!! If you donate, ask that your donation be marked for legal defense issues in general or be specifically applied to a target issue.

Thanks, guys and gals. Your dedication is noted.

done









:flipoff2:

HUMMMMM!!! Wonder if this counts as a contract:flipoff2:

Depending on how much I have in the bank at the time, I plan on donating a large chunk to the fund... A lawsuit is INEVITABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lance.. how do we donate to the fund.. give us a link so we can spread the word!

Join an organization and donate!!!! If you donate, ask that your donation be marked for legal defense issues in general or be specifically applied to a target issue.

Well, I am a HS teacher with a massive house, a boat payment and a money bucket of a rig, so I can only donate so much...

What I want to do is set up something that would generate money (and awareness) for legal defense for the ELDO route dez.

If we DO get something going, the first question would be where does the $$ go. If Cal4 is out of the fight becuase of the latest "Fiasco on Fordyce", it looks like BRC is the only one left that can really file an appeal (if one can be made).....right?

SO...

What to do?

Something like the 'Cantina?, a raffle? Pie eating contest? dunk tank? Kissing booth? Sell nude photos of someone?

Someone give me some ideas....

We are also talking about having some type of "RALLY" to raise awareness of what is happening. While we SHOULD be getting the word out during the Jeepers and Jeep Jambos, I was thinking of holding something off Silverfork where we are losing lots of primitive campsites and roads are being designated to licenced vehicles ONLY. People need to know that this will effect MORE that just the 'Con or 4x4 people like us...

If we had a rally and included campers, hunters, fisherman, the MX and ATV crowd, and most importantly THE PRESS. We MAY be able to make a huge impact....

"oh, and the FS cannot tell me, then went down EVERY single trail and determined a problem with it. If they did, why do they not list those problems in the DEIS? That's a problem for us, if we are not told WHY a road is being closed, how can we argue for it to be opened?"


In our conference call last week with the forestry service it was said by the USDA Representative "sorry I forgot his name". That studies were NOTconducted on every road, trail or sub road.

Johnny
Concord Ca.

Do not assume that Cal4 is out of the effort due to the shut down of Sierra Trek.

Cal4 does have some existing legal funds that are dedicated to legal efforts. Those will not be hurt by the lack of income from Sierra Trek.

The reality is: BRC MAY be lead organization for filing a lawsuit. However, they need to have an attorney licensed in the State of California to file. During past arrangements, BRC has filed and Cal4 has provided the local legal connection.

Is is about coalitions and partnerships.

Below are the specific Legal Expenses/Pass Through funds retained by Cal4:

Coyote Canyon
Jack Edwards
Black Sands Beach
Surprise Canyon
Oceano
Desert
Eldorado Law Suit
Sierra Nevada Framework
Clear Creek
Roadless
Miscellaneous Other

WRT the Jack Edwards Fund, this fund was established by the BOD to earmark funds for legal counseling and advice, to engage in legal action as deemed necessary by the BOD and to support and maintain representation in Washington DC. Legitimate expenses from the fund include but are not limited to: legal counseling and advice, attorney fees and retainers, and telephone calls relative to legal matters. In February 1987 a statement was ratified by the delegates to deposit $1.50 of member dues to this fund. In February, 2005 this was changed to 10% of the members dues, and the dues raised to $45 ($4.50/member after July 2005).

As you can see, just joining and paying dues places a certain $$ amount in Cal4 legal funds.

Puttin' my money where my mouth is....

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=316232&stc=1&d=1185229009

http://www.sharetrails.org

Well, I am a HS teacher with a massive house, a boat payment and a money bucket of a rig, so I can only donate so much...

What I want to do is set up something that would generate money (and awareness) for legal defense for the ELDO route dez.

If we DO get something going, the first question would be where does the $$ go. If Cal4 is out of the fight becuase of the latest "Fiasco on Fordyce", it looks like BRC is the only one left that can really file an appeal (if one can be made).....right?

SO...

What to do?

Something like the 'Cantina?, a raffle? Pie eating contest? dunk tank? Kissing booth? Sell nude photos of someone?

Someone give me some ideas....

We are also talking about having some type of "RALLY" to raise awareness of what is happening. While we SHOULD be getting the word out during the Jeepers and Jeep Jambos, I was thinking of holding something off Silverfork where we are losing lots of primitive campsites and roads are being designated to licenced vehicles ONLY. People need to know that this will effect MORE that just the 'Con or 4x4 people like us...

If we had a rally and included campers, hunters, fisherman, the MX and ATV crowd, and most importantly THE PRESS. We MAY be able to make a huge impact....

Bikini Rig Washing? :flipoff2:

Bikini Rig Washing? :flipoff2:

Don't laugh.....

it's in the works. Thinking about changing locations though....

Robbs is a possibility, I am thinking Main street Placerville off 50

I hear that Cal4Wheel has a new fundraiser in the works to make up for the lost Trek. It will be important to support that fundraiser, so keep your eyes out for it.

I am going to the High Sierra poker run at Swamp Lake on Labor Day weekend.
As one of the trail leaders, I will have the event organizers put out a can for donations to this legal fund at Cal4.
I do not know how much we can get, but every penny will count.

I hope that Don Spuhler shows up to the event, and if he does, I will send this money back with him. If not, I will email him for instructions on how to get this money into this legal fund.

Todd
Navy-Jeepster