ok here goes nothing. I am a huge Ford man. Half of my faminly has worked for Ford:D . How ever I have been looking into buying a Diesel and the Cummins have proven to me to be better:eek: . I hate to admit it but from what I have seen they seem to have more power. Now I am not looking for the brand new Fords mostly because I am a college student and have no money:flipoff2: . I am comparing the 12 valve Cummins to the 94-96 Powerstrokes. So your opinions and so links to check would be greatly appriciated.

-Jon:question:

If you hold out for another couple of years, Ford is dumping the Power Choke for the Cummins and Dodge is going to a Mercedes diesel. The first advantage I see is that I don't have to check coolant ph on my Cummins like on the Power Stroke.:D

My cousin has a Dodge. My old boss had a ford and I have a Chevy. All Diesels. I've driven them all and the cummins was my least favorite. sure they make great torque but the powerband is small, even for a diesel. Face it, a straight 6 is a tractor motor. The V8 diesels IMO are they way to go. I love my duramax but I'd stick to the Ford for the older stuff. Man I hate saying that.

Originally posted by Sloan
If you hold out for another couple of years, Ford is dumping the Power Choke for the Cummins and Dodge is going to a Mercedes diesel. The first advantage I see is that I don't have to check coolant ph on my Cummins like on the Power Stroke.:D

Nope ford is staying with Navistar....it's a 6.0L supposed to have 600 lb ft and 350 HP. Can't remember if it starts in 03' or 04'

Check www.fordcummins.com
They make an inexpensive conversion kit to put Cummins into 86-97 Fords.
Charlie

Originally posted by FordPowr


Nope ford is staying with Navistar....it's a 6.0L supposed to have 600 lb ft and 350 HP. Can't remember if it starts in 03' or 04'

Yeah i herd about that this weekend at a local tractor pull. they are supposed to be pretty bad a$$. I think they said next year but i cant remember:beer: :zzz: :D

-Jon:question:

Originally posted by Sloan
If you hold out for another couple of years, Ford is dumping the Power Choke for the Cummins and Dodge is going to a Mercedes diesel. The first advantage I see is that I don't have to check coolant ph on my Cummins like on the Power Stroke.:D

From everything I've heard thats not true. And I cant see them being stupid enough to dump Cummins.

It depends on what you want.

If you want an engine that will easily do 400,000 miles without any problems in a truck that will start falling apart from the frame at 200,000 get an older Dodge Cummins.

If you want an engine that might get 200,000 miles without 'many' problems, and glow plugs that never work, in a pretty well built truck, get an older Ford powerstroke.

I would pick the cummins myself, because it is easier to fix body parts with baling wire, than an engine.

Originally posted by mike


And I cant see them (Dodge) being stupid enough to dump Cummins.

Dodge isn't dumping Cummings, Cummings is dropping Dodge due to contrat issues. The Mercedes motor is, I believe, an in-house stop-gap untill the Detroit Diesel Delta motors are out. Once the Deltas are out, I expect Dodge to switch to those.

Originally posted by The Mick


Dodge isn't dumping Cummings, Cummings is dropping Dodge due to contrat issues. The Mercedes motor is, I believe, an in-house stop-gap untill the Detroit Diesel Delta motors are out. Once the Deltas are out, I expect Dodge to switch to those.

I hate to say this, but this is the first I've heard of this particular rumor. Other than last year, when it was debunked. We'll see. If so I'll buy whoever puts a Cummins in their truck

Ok, here is why i put down a cummings. Yes they do have a low power range, but that is what you get with a 6 cyl. But think about this, you get about the same, if not more power from a 5.9L 6 than a 7.3L 8. the 5.9 will get about 19 unloaded, the 7.3 about 14. from that standpoint alone i would buy the dodge. Plus the cummings is a very reliable motor. Just dont get the auto, and if you do, expect to replace it. I have a gas dodge, and mine went at 60k miles.
Now as for the switch, 2003 dodge is comming out with a newer version of the 5.9 liter 6. I dont know past that. BUt I woudl amagine they would end up switching to a detroit desiel, just because since it is their own brand, benz can keep more $$$ in their pockets, and charge a tad less on the motor, so insted of it being a 4.5k option, it will only be a 4k option. anyway, plus, i am a big dodge fan, but if i ever intended to haul more than 3 people, i woudl probabally own a crew cab ford. just my $0.02

Swapped my dodge for a Ford both diesels, Man I wish I had the dodge back when it comes to pulling. and the ford cant seem to pass a fuel stop. But the Ford is an ex-cab so now I got room for all my beeatches.:D

Originally posted by ROCKILLER
My cousin has a Dodge. My old boss had a ford and I have a Chevy. All Diesels. I've driven them all and the cummins was my least favorite. sure they make great torque but the powerband is small, even for a diesel. Face it, a straight 6 is a tractor motor. The V8 diesels IMO are they way to go. I love my duramax but I'd stick to the Ford for the older stuff. Man I hate saying that.


The power band is small? I think you might wanna look at that one again. Cummins powerband is WAY larger than Ford's and Duramax! This is why cummins has less HP and a little less torque yet people still enjoy the towing compared to Ford.

Im not putting down Ford, good trucks. I will say that I wouldnt buy a Duramax until it has proved itself. Well, even then unless they came down on the price. You cant get a well-equiped Duramax for under 38K!!!!:eek:
If Im gonna spend 40K Im gonna get a damn BMW!!!

Anyway, my vote goes for Dodge. Strongest and best components!

would you rather have a 6 cylinder or and 8. ill take an 8

HO chart... (regular 02 cummins is exactly the same with a slightly lower plateau...)

HO chart... (regular 02 cummins is exactly the same with a slightly lower plateau...)

That's nice, but the Dmax makes over 500 lb-ft from 1500 to 3200 rpm.

Cummins powerband is WAY larger than Ford's and Duramax!
This is just plain FALSE!!!!!!

Originally posted by mike


I hate to say this, but this is the first I've heard of this particular rumor. Other than last year, when it was debunked. We'll see. If so I'll buy whoever puts a Cummins in their truck

debunked?? which part??
Dropping Cummings???
The Mercedes going in??
or the Delta??

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Mick


Dodge isn't dumping Cummings, Cummings is dropping Dodge due to contrat issues. The Mercedes motor is, I believe, an in-house stop-gap untill the Detroit Diesel Delta motors are out. Once the Deltas are out, I expect Dodge to switch to those.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hate to say this, but this is the first I've heard of this particular rumor. Other than last year, when it was debunked. We'll see. If so I'll buy whoever puts a Cummins in their truck





As a note............. It's my understanding that Ford bought Cummins
a few years back. This may have something to do with it.

no that rumor is false too... Ford bought stock in Cummins many years back, but not an operating interest... I'm a Ford fan, but my next truck will be a Cummins... it's a WAY better motor than the ford... I like the feel more than my powerstroke, it pulls MUCH better gets better gas milage and can go 115 w/o a chip. It's more reliable, tougher, and YES it does have a MUCH "better" power curve... it starts low and goes to almost redline (remember it is a diesel and redline is about 3000 RPM).

Fords and Chevys are "downhill racers"... they'll pass you going downhill if you let them... but the Cummins will keep on trucking like a spotted ass ape up any grade I can throw at it... not to mention it's cool to burn the tires through three gears with the 6 speed... :D :D

GEEZ... I WISH WE HAD A TOW RIG FORUM:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by TexasTeadrinker
no that rumor is false too... Ford bought stock in Cummins many years back, but not an operating interest... I'm a Ford fan, but my next truck will be a Cummins... it's a WAY better motor than the ford... I like the feel more than my powerstroke, it pulls MUCH better gets better gas milage and can go 115 w/o a chip. It's more reliable, tougher, and YES it does have a MUCH "better" power curve... it starts low and goes to almost redline (remember it is a diesel and redline is about 3000 RPM).

Fords and Chevys are "downhill racers"... they'll pass you going downhill if you let them... but the Cummins will keep on trucking like a spotted ass ape up any grade I can throw at it... not to mention it's cool to burn the tires through three gears with the 6 speed... :D :D


Okay. I heard Ford had bought Cummins, not just stock. You
have me curious now. Do you know what percentage of the
stock Ford bought?

everyone should ph test their coolant.
to think that only Ford has electrolysis problems is way wrong.
I drive big Cummins engines and they all have a coolant additive that is changed every second oil drain or so to fight electrolysis

I heard it was 10-15 points.... nothing serious...

tets throw an International into the pot

might be able to fit this motor in a Ford

http://www.internationaldelivers.com/engine/images/ht530_rp_col4_chart.jpg

ht530 :eek:

Well, we had a 94 PS. Then another in 94, and one more in 95. Can we say BLOWING HEADS. I am not just talking about a gasket or anything. Ford replaced 3 motors under warranty!!! Thaqt had to of been the biggest POS I have EVER in my life driven. We then put a Cummings in it and it was like night and day. I am a die hard Frod fan. but, in your case, Cummings is the way to go unless you go with the new (99-02) PS. Those seem to hold up pretty well. But, all in all, if I had a choice of a diesel, CAT is the ONLY way to go!!!

To answer your original question, buy the Dodge, but I recommend the NV4500 manual tranny over the auto. If you wanted a NEW truck (which is not what you asked) some of the info in this thread would apply.

I think there are some opinions added in here that stray from the facts. I have a Ford with a 7.3 turbo diesel now, so my opinions will be skewed that way. I had a Dodge and like a poster said, they tend to rattle apart. Maybe the newer ones are more reliable but the 96 was not. It was not the Cummins either, it was all the other chassis and body stuff. BTW, the air conditioning sux on both of them!

The new Navistar Powerstroke 600 is a 6 cyl, that does put out 350 hp and 600 ft lbs. It will be available in 2003 in SD trucks and Excursions. There are some rumors that the 7.3 will still be available, most in the know don't think so. It is also rumored to be coming to the F150 and Expeditions, wait and see.

There are 2 companies that often get confused, Cummins (current diesel motor proivider to Dodge) and Cummings a company many believe is owned by Ford. Notice the spelling, different companies and different products. Really want to know, do a search on the web.


Just more noise...................................

Ford does own a controlling interest in the Cummins motor. That is why Dodge did not make a crew cab truck in the new body style. Ford said "Sure! You can use the Cummins motor, but you can't have four doors!" That is why Dodge brought out the "Quad Cab" and the third door bullchit.

Cummins and Onan Generators... Ever heard the two mentioned together? That's because Onan uses the Cummins in all of their large powerplants that power alot of your office buildings and medical facilities. The motor used in the Dodge is based on the same platform. Great power, reliablilty, longevity. Who wouldn't want that in a truck? But, just like the Onan version of the Cummins, the Dodge version has flat numbers. Great numbers, but the curve doesn't climb as high as the Powerstroke. You all keep saying that it pulls great from off the line to the top of the hill, because it has all the power right now, instead of having to wait for the RPM's to get into the power making range.


EDIT: I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit on the motor and tranny to get a better fitting cab. The dodge has never felt right to me. It just isn't comfortable for me to drive. However, the Powerstroke I could drive all day long.

The new powerstroke 6.0 is a V8 32 valve motor. you are thinking about the baby powerstroke which i think is about 4.5L and it is a V6 and it will come out in the F150s and Expeditions. BTW 02 is the last year for the 7.3, 03 will all be the new 6.0s. BTW by 06-07 the fords will be camless engines.

wasnt 95 the first year for PS?

"Ford does own a controlling interest in the Cummins motor"

prove that statement.

Originally posted by mj
wasnt 95 the first year for PS?

"Ford does own a controlling interest in the Cummins motor"

prove that statement.

I agree here. At one time maybe. Not anymore

dodge all the way. stats, 95 12 valve 270,000 miles no major mechanical issues ever, haven't checked the timing/fuel in quite a while not running quite right truck loaded trailer on back jeep on trailer 67-68mph cruise set 17 mpg all day long and enough to pull ahead of the big rig guys on the uphills when I knew (from the CB talk) that they were giving it. I can't complain

oh yeah the body is doing great as is everything else interrior, electrical...etc

Ford went to direct injection in 95 but the power stroke in 99
you can get a cummins in a new Ford but it has to be a 650 or 750:D ,but at that point you may as well get the Cat
if your buying a older Ford and live where its cold,keep a spare glow plug relay in the glove box.

umm in 95 ford went to direct injection and called it the powerstroke. then in 99 they added a intercooler to the powerstrokes. dumb newbies.

I've owned a lot of diesels, and by a long shot, the Cummins is the best of the lot. A 6 cyl engine makes more torque than any V8 of comparable displacement. With the NV5600 and 1 ton drive train in a 3/4 ton, I couldn't be happier. I've passed a lot of Fords smokin their way up the grapevine in mine, and in 6th gear pulling shit. I've put 45,000 miles on the truck in 16 months. In that time I've never heard it not pop on every cylinder. Starts right up every time. It's the only new vehicle I've never had to take back to the dealer to have anything fixed on warranty. The High Output engine (specs above) is only available with the manual trans, as the auto just doesn't hold up to the 505 ft. lbs of torque. If you get a manual, be sure to spring for the boat anchor NV5600. There is no speed or grade that you don't have a convinient gear, up or downhill. Smoothest clutch ever in anthing I've ever owned. With the Lance Lite camper, Featherlite trailer/CJ8 it grosses out at a bit under 15,000 lbs. I get 19-20 mpg as a daily drive and it drops to about 14 with the above load. I bought this Cummins with the likelyood that it will outlive me. As good as I feel, I suspect it will.
regards, as always, jefe

Originally posted by jefe
I bought this Cummins with the likelyood that it will outlive me. As good as I feel, I suspect it will.
regards, as always, jefe

Don't forget us in your Will :D

A buddy on mine was a ford guy (gas truck) Went looking for a new truck and decided he wanted to try this mileage thing. The big thing that sold him on the dodge was the mileage claims and the fact that both ford and dodge come with 100k warranty, the cinch was that dodge will sell you another 100k at 100k and ford wouldn't. That sold him. Basically dodge will warranty the engine for 200k.

Originally posted by Black Dog


That's nice, but the Dmax makes over 500 lb-ft from 1500 to 3200 rpm.


This is just plain FALSE!!!!!!



So your worried about the torque while at redline? Is that so you can pull at redline all day? I dont know about you but I dont like to pull at redline.

Also, post some real data other than, "that is just false" and "I say engine do this...."

:D :D :flipoff2:

PS) I bought the 6 speed HO cummins last night!:D:D

The Dmax torque curve follows that HO Cummins curve almost exactly at low RPM, but the flat part at over 500 lb-ft continues up to 3200 RPM, instead of dying off at about 2300 RPM. I have nothing against the Cummins trucks, and I would not be embarrased to drive one, but the Dmax motor is just plain stronger. No sacrifice in low RPM torque, but much more available at high RPMs. This will get you up the hill faster every time. These are the plain facts, like it or not.

http://www.gmperformance.org/board/albums/46.jpg

the power stroke came out mid year 94. at one time you could get the 7.3 turbo[idi],7.3 [idi] and the 7.3 direct injection[aka power stroke] the early 94 power strokes were not marked power stroke on the out side of the truck. you have to pop the hood and it was marked direct injection. by the way am getting another cummins this week, its the best. pulls like a bitch, good miliage and will last till the dodge falls off. i saw one 2 weeks ago that had 580k on it and it still ran great. mike

I drive an 02 dodge with a 6 speed and couldn't be happier. 18- mpg hwy and 16 with a camper and jeep on back and it pulls any hill no problem. The difference is the Dodge IMO is easier to work on and the mods are cheaper. check out www.bullydog.com

I guess Black Dog proved me wrong, Im not afraid to admit it.

However, in defense of Dodge I will say that I wouldnt pay what Im sure Black Dog paid for a Duramax unless it was more proven.

Especially with dodge coming out with a improved cummins next year that will whip that:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

(Just givin ya a hard time!:D:D:D:D)

Yeah, I guess a Ford or a Dodge is nice if that's all you can afford :-).

ok I am not going to get into my I am a Ford mand and all chebys can die mode:flipoff2: but I am still not to sure about those aluminiun heads and I have seen too many of them fried on the side of the road with tranny problems. however I drove my friends HD and I do like how the Allison keeps the boost on the turbo and the interior in very clean but I am a real man I work for a livinig, and that clean and nice of a bowtie is not for me.


BTW thanks for all those who responded you have been very helpful in my decision

-Jon:question:

HP/torque numbers for Duramax at the rear wheels. NOT what GM claims. I got these from PowerEdge.

torque at the rear wheel

Cummins HP

at the rear wheels

The cummins motor in the graph is the ETC motor which is available on the 5 speed NV4500 and automatics. The HP and torque numbers for the HO (high output ETH) motor will be more.

Of course, the graphs don't factor in aftermarket injectors for the
Cummins. My last dyno run, I did 300 HP and 675 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels. I've got my hands on a PowerEdge Comp box that will bring me up to 360 HP and 820 ft/lbs at the rear wheels (based on what other folks are dyno'ing with the same configuration).

If you want to see folks making 500 HP+ on #2 diesel, go checkout www.turbodieselregister.com.

Charles

Since you're on a budget this is what I would do. I would buy a 12 valve Cummins like a 95-98 (went to 24 valve in 98.5). These motors are bullet proof with P7100 injection pumps which can be turned up to 350 HP at the rear wheels for about 400.00.
The 12 valve motor is the one many Ford owners are installing in their Fords after the ford diesel has died. Get the 5 speed NV4500. Avoid the Getrag transmission. They pretty much suck.

Remember, these motors are good for 400,000 miles or more so a "high mileage" motor is usually not a problem.

I had 97 dodge with a 12v motor worked great as a DD and tow rig. But my 01 PSD Ford is twice the tow rig gobbs of power and a better trans. But twice the price. Pulling my toyota with the dodge was fine but no passing in the fast lane going up hill 55 max speed. The ford I have to let off 70 plus. HWY80 going to fordyce.

You gotta figure this into these charts that everyone (including I) posted...

Mine was done by Cummins-----overexagerated most likely

Those ones done by the aftermarket company are most likely UNDER exagerated to make their product seem more effective...

You gotta take it with a grain of salt.

Best thing would be some dynos by an independant group...

>>>>>That's nice, but the Dmax makes over 500 lb-ft from 1500 to 3200 rpm.

I don't see that. Dmax's torque curve does not flatten out until you get to about 2200 RPM. It puts out little over 300 ft/lbs at 1800 RPM's. This graph is vastly different than what GM claims.

Check out some more graphs. These are from Diesel Dynamics in Las Vegas. The owner, Lawrence Bolton, has clocked over 1 million dyno runs on his in house dyno. I believe Diesel Dynamics is one of the best when it comes to diesel motor upgrades.
www.dieseldynamics.com

Torque curve for Dmax. Red color is stock and blue is with an fueling box upgrade. The torque curve is not very flat at all. You'll see how it peaks up around 3000 RPM's. This is MUCH different than a Cummins which makes peak torque at 1800 RPM's. So the claim that Dmax makes more low end torque is totally false. I've got 2 dyno runs on my Cummins and it clearly shows the peak torque at 1800 RPM's.