Planning SAS soon, need to start gathering parts. I want to use a D44 to gain a little more width, hopefully make the truck a little less tippy. IFS front end is 58.5" (??), I was thinkin a six-lug D44 about 62-63" would be about right. So what axles am I lookin at?
And more importantly what mods am I gonna have to do to use that D44 that I wouldnt have to do to use a Toy 8"? In your guys' opinions is the 44 swap worth it or would it be much easier to just stick with the toy shiat?? :beer:

A lot of Dana info here

http://home.off-road.com/~bibelheimer/index.html?OFX

i am still debating the toy 8" vs D44 too for a SAS:question:

unless you are dead set on wider axles then i think with the advent of lonfields that even a tricked out 44 with warn axles and ctm's is not even that much of and advantage for 95% of you guys doing a SAS.

give the toy with lonfields some serious consideration. it is almost worthy.

Originally posted by camo
unless you are dead set on wider axles then i think with the advent of lonfields that even a tricked out 44 with warn axles and ctm's is not even that much of and advantage for 95% of you guys doing a SAS.

give the toy with lonfields some serious consideration. it is almost worthy.

I agree with camo...that's the route I'm taking.

Camo (and anyone else who wants to chime in),
Do you think the extra 5" or so of extra width (assuming a 63" D44) would make much of a difference in stability? I would really like to have the rig as non-tippy as possible. Would like to hear input on how much of a difference you guys think it would make. Right now with the IFS lift :barf: the truck feels so F***in tippy on every little thing because the front has absolutley no travel. I just dont want to do an SAS, use the toy, and wish I used a wider axle cause its too tippy also. Just lookin for some idea of how much more stable the 44 would be. Thanks guys. :beer:

I'm using a Toy axle along with Performance Wheel's 2.5-inch spacers on each end so it's 5-inches wider than stock. With 3.75 backspaced 15x10 wheels and 37x12.50 Swampers, I'm at an overall 76-77 inches wide (+-2 inches, been awhile since i measured ;) ) It's wider than a stock full size Chevy with stock tires and all. Pretty wide I guess :D

A stock Toy axle is only 55" or so wide, so a 63" 44 is 8" wider, not 5".

And another thing, how tippy your truck "feels" is a lot different than how prone to actually going over it is.
If you swap in a Toy axle (which is actually narrower than your current IFS), in most cases it will "feel" less tippy (less 3-wheeling), but when it comes down to actually going over, the SAS would usually go over before the IFS.

With my 63.5" D44, it "feels" less tippy and IS less tippy. :D
I didn't want to go narrower than I already was, and there was no such thing as a "Longfield" when I did my swap either. But I'd still go 44.

I stuck with the toy axle, mostly out of ignorance to the inherant strength issues of the birf. Thanks to Bobby that appears to be an issue of the past (knocking on wood).

The other benefit is in the Diferential, it's nice to have one setup spare that will fit either front or rear axle. just my .02

Dave

Just finished my SAS. I went with the toy axle for a few reasons:

*easy setup- both the spring hangers and the 3rd member
*dropout 3rds
*I already had a built 3rd member w/Detroit
*front and rear 3rds are the same
*with a dual tcase setup - I read that some people are able to use the same shaft front or rear????
*less junkyard scrounging
*all toy parts- no mixing standard and metric stuff
*the evil you know is better than the evil you don't know- or whatever that saying is
:rasta:

I'm running a fullwidth 44 and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

When I do mine, I plan on using a Toy axle. I think the toy axle is definitely good for 36-37s (especially with Longfields), and if you get much bigger than that, you're talking D60 territory anyways.

Plus I want my front and rear gears to be the same....

IMO, the FZJ80 unit is the way to go. You get the extra width you want (63.5"), you get a high pinion diff with locker, a beefier housing, larger knuckles with monster CV joints, and HD steering components with the tie rod placed behind the axle. The most important part - you can get replacement parts from any number of sources, dealer, junkyards, and aftermarket. Compare the buildup cost... I can pick-up a complete unit near me for $895.

Oh yeah, it is much more stable.

Brian

My original SAS was with a custom, narrowed D44 that was the same width as the IFS rear (58") The truck ended up pretty tall and seemed tippy, after flopping it, 3rd trip, I picked up a full width D44. I'm now almost a foot wider. The truck feels and is very stable, I've pitched it sideways on the street to watch people gasp. I would do it again in a heart beat. However, I'm planning on picking up a 2wd at the end of summer and SAS'ing it. I will use a toy axle for that one because I plan on selling it and do want to make the modifications that drastic, it'll be harder to sell. Super Birf's weren't available when I did mine either, kinda glad they weren't, the width was worth it.

Still not sure what axle I want to use.....Toy sounds easier. Is there a 44 out there that is about 62", six-lug, pass side droop? Dont really wanna have to go to the trouble of having it shortened, etc. And if there is one that meets those, what about the spring perches? hard to relocate? Im thinkin a ~62" 44 with spacers on the rear axle would be just about right. Any thoughts?

hey, Adam, whats up. It's Sam. looking at SAS, eh? my vote would be toy stuff unless you wanna go bigger motor some day. oh BTW i might be getting my V8 this summer. and i'm gonna weld up the rear end. anyways, i'm done tomorrow and then off to the beach. i'll see you around.:usa:

Howdy Sam....EVENTUALLY I wanna do the supra swap. Dont know if I wanna do just the standard 7MGE or the turbo (speakin of, whats the specs on HP and such for the standard 7MGE??). Thats pretty low on my list though, the little 4-banger is still goin strong.

Originally posted by LOKNLOD
Plus I want my front and rear gears to be the same....

ypu mean 4.88 and 4.88 are not the same?? i thought all 8x39 combo's were identical, do you knwo somethign i don't??

Originally posted by DSI

ypu mean 4.88 and 4.88 are not the same?? i thought all 8x39 combo's were identical, do you knwo somethign i don't??

I would venture to guess that he was refering to the swappable 3rd's.......but I could be wrong. :smokin:

the stock non-turbo 7M-GE has 200 horsepower.

Originally posted by DSI

ypu mean 4.88 and 4.88 are not the same?? i thought all 8x39 combo's were identical, do you knwo somethign i don't??

I was referring to ending up with 5.29's in the 8" rear but having to use 5.38s in the D44 :p Sure they're pretty close and you can get by with them but I just don't want to go that route.

Originally posted by LOKNLOD


I was referring to ending up with 5.29's in the 8" rear but having to use 5.38s in the D44 :p Sure they're pretty close and you can get by with them but I just don't want to go that route.
I don't understand wht not? I have no problems with my setup 5.38/5.29. If you are choosing a toyota axle just to have the same gears, but really want the 44 benefits of width, etc. Call AP and see what the Hybrid 44/Toy front is going for and you'll realize that this is a VERY minor issue.

Long's were just coming out when I did mine and I had it all set up with a Toyota front, but changed at the last minute.I think both are a good choice and have differant +'s and -'s. Figure out what you want and go from there. I'd go 44 again if I did another SAS though.

I had the fully setup toyota axles including the front it kicked but. I wanted to mainly be wider so I went full width f/r wouldn't go back for the world. You probably would be happier with the wider front end I know I would. The stock width axle is ideal for a buggy like (toyfamily) etc but for me its out of the question.
Good luck!

Originally posted by ToyTrck89
Still not sure what axle I want to use.....Toy sounds easier. Is there a 44 out there that is about 62", six-lug, pass side droop? Dont really wanna have to go to the trouble of having it shortened, etc. And if there is one that meets those, what about the spring perches? hard to relocate? Im thinkin a ~62" 44 with spacers on the rear axle would be just about right. Any thoughts?

Some Waggy 44's are 61". The spring perch width is a bit wider, but you can leave it that way (like the Taco guys) or there are ways of narrowing...

It's interesting how everyone sings the praises of the wider axles. Much of the enthusiasm seems to relate to street handling. I know, I know, less tipsy on the trails is good too. But, no one is mentioning that a narrower Toyota will easily go through some trails that are quite hard with a full width axle. If you want full width axles, why not build a full width Chevy, Dodge or Ford? I believe each camp will have its devotees.

Todd C - My concern about being too tippy has absolutely nothing to do with street handling (although it is still my DD). And I dont want FULL width axles....just thought it might be nice to get a little more width while I was doin the SAS. I really dont wanna put anything on it wider than about 62" WMS-WMS for exactly the reason you stated. I still want to be able to navigate the tight trails.

Erik B - 61" waggy sounds interesting. Are they six lug? What years could I find these on? Assuming I was to use one of these is the spring perch width the only concern?

Originally posted by ToyTrck89
Erik B - 61" waggy sounds interesting. Are they six lug? What years could I find these on? Assuming I was to use one of these is the spring perch width the only concern?
Mine came from a Wagoneer, and yes they are 6 lug. You will either have to outboard your hangers or cut the long side down 3" to match toyota style hangers. Mine are outboarded, and I do rub on the springs, and I need to set my steering stops. Erik has a chevy cut down and is wider and has a norrower spring hanger, which gives an advantage over my style setup (no spring rubbage). I'm completely happy with mine and can live with this minor deal. I plan to get some 2-2.5" bs wheels as well, so that will help over the 3.75" ones I have now. No big hurry though.

Originally posted by LOKNLOD


I was referring to ending up with 5.29's in the 8" rear but having to use 5.38s in the D44 :p Sure they're pretty close and you can get by with them but I just don't want to go that route.

they are not "pretty close" they are within "indrusty spec" no reason to have any concern about it.....ask at orc and they will say it should not be done period:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

c'mon, after long fields the ONLY reason to go with the d44 is if you want the width. after wheeling repeatedly with dustin emmick who is ~67" wide, the width is a definite plus when it comes to off camber and pushing the flop envelop...i flopped off mossbergs rig half way up the exo at the hammers camp, dustin had to be pushed off the TOP as did the similar setup(wide d44) on his cousin, randys rig....wider is better:rasta: unless you wheel with the boyz in AZ(narrow trails):D

4 door late 70's waggy's have the six lug, passenger drop 61" axle, 2 door waggy's from the same years have "widetrack axles," the rear is the same, but the front is 65". No matter which axle you choose you're going to build a hanger (All Pro's is junk), so the spring perch width really isn't an issue. My truck streets better with the wide axles and I had no problem follwing my narrower friends through the trees, up in thesnow, I can turn sharper than them too.

And ToddC, I hope you were tryign to be a smartass, because you're last comment was very retarded.
hmmmmmmmmmm what should I do??????? wide axle w/ narrow body or wide axle with wide body???????

For last year's jambo we ran Big Johnson. The 1 guy out of the 10 of us that was running full width axles "seemed" to have more problems. (probably just the driver) :rolleyes: I think the best width is related to each particular obstacle, just like wheel base is. I've been in many off camber situations that I was praying for wider axles but have also been in just as many narrow spots where I'm glad mine are narrow too. So I can't justify going full width myself. That being said I do wish my front (stock toy width) was 4" wider :D


I also had an IFS truck(4" lift) before my '85 (5" lift) and this truck "FEELS" 100X more stable. :usa:

Wilson - Planned on building my own spring hanger anyway. The only reason I was concerned about the spring perch width is because I want to mount the shackles for the front springs through the frame as opposed to a hanger underneath, etc. I guess I dont really have to go through the frame, just seems cleaner to do it that way. Anybody got any pics of how they did their shackle hangers with a front 44?? Thanks :beer:

Use F150 springs and you can go through the frame, I just opted to keep mine underneath again, less of a hassle and if the shackles don't work right, it's not a big deal to move them.

Here's mine....this was with 2.5" pro comp springs. Sorry, no pics with the F150 swap, but I had to redo the entire SAS. I've been too busy trying to get it done to take pics

Originally posted by Wilson
Here's mine....this was with 2.5" pro comp springs. Sorry, no pics with the F150 swap, but I had to redo the entire SAS. I've been too busy trying to get it done to take pics

It wasn't any problems with putting your shackles under the frame that inspired you to re-do it all was it?

Here's how I did mine and kept the shackle through the frame. And no it does not hit the frame under compression :flipoff2:

I went from a 29" hanger to a 31.5" so I was able to keep the through the frame mount and had some 1/2' plate bent for the inside shackle leg to make the spring sit out further, and I used one leg of the 1.5" extended shackles I bought as the outter leg on each side, just reversed around...confused you yet? :D

In the first pic on the right side (outside of the frame) is the 1.5" lift shackle I bought to use when I was going to run a Toyota axle. I cut out the center support and flipped it 180*. Then I measured a million times to get the the one on the left side (inside the frame) bent to meet up with the spring. Well the joker that bent the 1/2" plate bent it a 1/2" short of the spring, so I had him cut me another piece of 1/2" plate to weld to it to make up the differance. It turned out better than I thought it would. Way better than if I would have done it like Wilson did (My fab skills were crappier then), which is what I originally planned to do.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=338460
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=338461

Originally posted by Big Bad Pete


It wasn't any problems with putting your shackles under the frame that inspired you to re-do it all was it?

Nope, I wanted to lower my truck, which meant redoing the drop hanger. While at it, I decided that I wanted the more flexy and much longer F150 springs. After making my new hanger, hanging the springs and going to hang my shackle hangers did I notice that I could go through the frame (because of the extra foot of spring length). I was going to do it, but had trouble with shackle location the first time and didn't want to have to worry about it. I really like to have my shackles sitting at about 45-55 degrees, tons of flex and a nice soft ride.

Wilson - I'd love to see some pics of your front springs after you redid it if you could get some up. Thanks :beer:

I'll try to get some pics up early next week. it needs to be wheelable friday morning, and I want to go ramp it with the changes and drive it around for a while, in case there are any bugs to work out.