I am thinking on going full hydro steering. However... my friend has a Rock Crawler out of a YJ. He has Full Hydro steering and what makes me double think aboput this set up is the fact that he can NOT drive his Jeep to the trails. He barely can go up to 30 MPH and at that speed.. he is risking his life because the steering kicks.

In the other hand.. i see all trophy trucks in the Baja off-Road Racing use full hydro steering.

So my question is... Is the full hydro steering really not safe to drive it on the road and over 30 MPH?? Or is there some problem in my friend's set up??

I am just waitting for your answers to make my desision. Actually.. he is so tired and disapointed of his steering set up that he says he will trade all his set up for mine.

I am currently using AGR steering box with steering assist, 16" King Coilovers, three link front and 4 link rear, 39" krawlers, 1 ton axles, TPI chevy 350, etc. etc. etc.

Thanks for your time.

Im not the expert on this but just my 2 cents. I have full hydro and it makes a big difference with steering ease but it is very touchy and quick responsive jerks and I only have to turn the wheel 1 full revolution from center lock to lock. So if you set it up to have more revolutions in the wheel it will be alot less sensitive. Also I dont think it is legal in CA.

its not illegal, its just not legal. laws havent gotten around to saying if its ok or not, its in a gray area. about if hydro is safe to drive or not well look at some magazine articles or do some research. There is alot of information on how to set up a full hydro setup with the proper angles. Without the proper angles ive heard full hydro is not a good setup, just has to be used correctly.

Lets focus on the functionality for now.. My rig is not a daily driver but a trail only rig. However i want to drive it to and back from the trails.

So what i am guessing now is that it depends on the revolutions on the box what can make the difference...hum... good point. Thanks Bounty

Junkie... what do you mean for "proper angles"??

I found this great info:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/suspension/129_0611_hydraulic_steering_tech/index.html

However...
i guess i will go with the full hydro steering set up. So my question is.. Where do you reccomend to get the best tech support to get the best configuration for my aplication? And what brand do youy reccomend? I mean i don't want to spend much more omney for a brand.. i want to get what is good and at a good cost.

Thanks.

OK. You have to have the entire system matched for it to work well. The steering valve must be the correct displacement for your ram, the pump must have enough flow and pressure for your ram/valve. It will work very well if set up properly. Read Billavista's article on hydro steering, it helps a bunch if you already know a lot about hydraulics and steering systems.

Go HERE:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index3.html
Dan

Why do you feel that you need to go full hydro if your hydro assist is still working:confused:

I driven full hydro systems set up by reputable vendors on this board and I personally don't like the feel. I think that full hydro has it's place on some vehicles on the trail and in comps. When it comes to driving full hydro systems on the road, regardless of legality, it is very hard to relax and drive. I don't like the drinking while driving feeling and that is likely what you will be pulled over for suspicion of. Even the self centering systems will never have the response and consistent handling of a mechanical linkage hydro assist system.

A buddy of mine paid big $$$ to have a complete full hydro system designed by one of the vendors on this board and is now pulling it off for hydro assist. I never liked his system from the beginning and now he is sick of it. It isn't even fun to drink to the store much less to the trail. It has to be trailered everywhere.

After driving both high dollar and budget full hydro systems, I would never want to run it on my rig.

i have full hydro on my buggy, and in fact i have had full hydro on my last 2 trail rigs, and all 3 were steet legal..everybody has their own opinion of what drives well and what doesnt on the street.. i love my full hydro and would never run hydro assist, but thats my personal opinion.. i have about 3.5 turns to go from lock to lock on my steering, and its just about perfect. once you get used to the super light feel of the steering wheel(my orbital is load reactive so it does give feedback)it steers just like normal but with no return to center. i personally have no trouble maintaining speed on the interstate, and to me the steering response is right on the money.best thing i can tell you to do is find somebody that is HAPPY with the way their full hydro performs, and take their rig for a test drive and form your own opinion. my steering system came from POS and this is what it is on

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c254/fl-krawler/pit%20ride/pitride8-5-07005.jpg

it steers just like normal but with no return to center.
Besides poor tracking, the lack of sufficient return to center is one of the main things that tuns me off.

best thing i can tell you to do is find somebody that is HAPPY with the way their full hydro performs, and take their rig for a test drive and form your own opinion.
Very good advice. I wouldn't move any further with your full hydro set up until this is done.

RK

When it comes to propper angles, I think he ment on the axle itself. Installing a full hyrdo steering system can be a real sweet deal as you dont have to worry about linkage, geometry, and bunch of other head aches. But what is critical, is the postioning of the ram on the axle.

Most hydro systems that fail, are usually due to poor set up angles. There is a lot of debate where the "exact" placement should be, but rule of thumb, you want the ram to be in the postion that will keep the linkage as straight as possible.

The catch is though, as the steeering cycles, the angles change with the swing of the knuckles and your steering arms. So you want to line up so that if the arm is in full exstension out of the ram, you want to have that link straight as possible. Other wise, thats how a arm can break or "ram" damage can happen. Straighter, the stronger. I would think there are some great tech articles out there online that explain it all. But that is maybe to what the above poster was reffering to.

B.A.R.K. just curious what you mean by poor tracking.. does the system pull to one side or the other??? my system tracks straight as an arrow, and tays going in the direction i have steered it no matter what.. if the system pulls and wanders on un even road surfaces you may wanna look into having the alignment checked or checking to see if the system is developing air somewhere(through cavitation, fluid foaming/overheating, or a trapped air bubble) as that will make a full hydro system really shitty on road and possibly off

I peiced my system together myself. It is very light like FL-Krawler said. It's like anything else (lift, lockers) you just need to develop a feel for it.

I do not drive my rig to the trails, but when I wheel locally I do have to drive it up a twisty mountain road a couple miles to the trail head (nowhere to park the trailer any closer). If I didn't have a trailer, I'd have hydro assist.

One thing I have noticed with my full hydro in regards to road feel, is that it is very sensitive to caster change. When I had leaves, I had -9* and it was straight as an arrow. When I built my 3 link I brought it up to -3* to add a little turning radius and I got that DWI-like wandering feel. I recently brought it back to -7* and it made a world of difference on the road.

I drive mine on the street - got everything from PSC - excellent service and very knowledgable to help. If you need more info - send me a pm - people seem to get their panties in a bunch knowing I drive it on the freeway..........

I drove around Moab to the trails and back with full hydro, never had a problem with cops.

Was talking to Derek Trent (Trent Fab) the other day about this. He runs full hydro and says he wouldn't have it any other way, including going 60 or 70 across the desert at the hammers.

Another opinion, from an "expert".

Tanks you guys... it seems to me like the secret is to get the matched system formy aplcation and to do a good installation.

I guess i need to go full hydro since i am running 16" coilovers front and rear.. so will need to go double-triangulated four link at front to get rid of the track bar / drag link issues...

I apreciate the comments of all of you guys. Thank you for your opinions.

Anyone else?

B.A.R.K. just curious what you mean by poor tracking.. does the system pull to one side or the other??? my system tracks straight as an arrow, and stays going in the direction i have steered it no matter what.. if the system pulls and wanders on uneven road surfaces you may wanna look into having the alignment checked or checking to see if the system is developing air somewhere(through cavitation, fluid foaming/overheating, or a trapped air bubble) as that will make a full hydro system really shitty on road and possibly off
When I say tracking I may be using the wrong term.
For example, when driving full hydro on a flat straight road I find myself constantly adjusting the wheel left and right to maintain a straight path (or a zig-zagging path). This is due to the lack of sufficient self centering. On a traditional steering system, power steering, the caster of the front wheels is enough to prevent this. Hydro assist can have enough feed back to perform similar to this. When you say, "system tracks straight as an arrow, and stays going in the direction i have steered it no matter what", that is what it does. It does not receive any feed back from the tires and if dead center is a few degrees off then you will need eventually correct your path on a straight road. This problem could be masked by an orbital valve with many turns lock-to-lock, but that will have its own downfall. There are pros and cons to each set up. Many turns of the wheel = precise control, but you will need one of those bus driver knobs. :grinpimp:

I think full hydro would be great for a trail only rig. He asked about street driving so I just want to share my experiences.

When I say tracking I may be using the wrong term.
For example, when driving full hydro on a flat straight road I find myself constantly adjusting the wheel left and right to maintain a straight path (or a zig-zagging path). This is due to the lack of sufficient self centering. On a traditional steering system, power steering, the caster of the front wheels is enough to prevent this. Hydro assist can have enough feed back to perform similar to this. When you say, "system tracks straight as an arrow, and stays going in the direction i have steered it no matter what", that is what it does. It does not receive any feed back from the tires and if dead center is a few degrees off then you will need eventually correct your path on a straight road. This problem could be masked by an orbital valve with many turns lock-to-lock, but that will have its own downfall. There are pros and cons to each set up. Many turns of the wheel = precise control, but you will need one of those bus driver knobs. :grinpimp:

I think full hydro would be great for a trail only rig. He asked about street driving so I just want to share my experiences.


the system on my last "jeep" did that.. used to refer to it as the full hydro bump, b/c you were always bumping the steering wheel side to side to keep it going straight.. with the load reactive valve its no where near as noticable though.like you said there are pros' and cons to each, and its just a question of how much you are willing to give up in one avenue, to gain in another

the system on my last "jeep" did that.. used to refer to it as the full hydro bump, b/c you were always bumping the steering wheel side to side to keep it going straight.. with the load reactive valve its no where near as noticable though.like you said there are pros' and cons to each, and its just a question of how much you are willing to give up in one avenue, to gain in another

Good point! Fl-Krawler, Bushwacker, Budd, do this happen to you? Is this normal?? It would help a lot to know what are your system configuration... 'cus if you can drive at highway speeds i will definitely love to do that with full hydro at the same time i will be able to get the most of my 16" coilovers travel off the road.

Thanks.

To an extent - but watch yourself when you drive a normal car - you are still making adjustments fairly routinely. Full hydro has zero play in the system - so you tend to make more adjustments. After driving one for awhile you can predict/see it coming...........no biggie. It isn't like you are swerving from edge of lane to edge of lane - if so your control valve is too tight to drive at speed...........

typo..

it was prevelent on my old "jeep" b/c the system was just pieced together. the orbital had a dead spot and you had to have about 1/2" of steering wheel input before the ram would move.. on my last 2 buggies i have ran a matched and balanced "system" from sean at POS(goes by "station" on here) and i dont have any noticable dead spot, i do have some steering wheel feel and feedback, and i dont really have to do the bump, bump, bump, side to side to keep it going straight that i did on my jeep..i used one of his "load reactive" orbitals. it will transmit steering feel back, but had an anti kickback balve to keep the steering wheel from getting ripped out of your hand when you hit something.

also keep in mine that there is more to a good steering system than just what ram and orbital you are using. if your link geometry and alignment are out of whack they can make a great system seem like total shit on the street. i have 18" trave fox air shock and currie anti rocks on my buggy and it drives great for a rig on 49's.. it drives better than most lifted jeeps with 35's.

Yes, l have to steer back and forth a little bit, but its not bad. I'm running the PSC HD 8" double ram, POS TC pump, Howe cooler, Appleton res with filter I think. At the time was running 39.5 Bias Iroks on DIY beadlocks and no balancing and it ran down the road just fine, except for my 4.0L not having balls on the hills.

I don't know if this is a stupid idea but could you take a hydro ass. system and just remove the draglink and use the ram to controll steering? It seems that it would react better on road and have a normal PS feeling and track true but since you would have no mechanical linkage you could get full use out of your sus. like you want. I have no IDEA how this would work because its just an idea. Has anyone done this and how did it work???

I don't know if this is a stupid idea but could you take a hydro ass. system and just remove the draglink and use the ram to controll steering? It seems that it would react better on road and have a normal PS feeling and track true but since you would have no mechanical linkage you could get full use out of your sus. like you want. I have no IDEA how this would work because its just an idea. Has anyone done this and how did it work???

NO. The ram would only move when you hit the stop on the steering box. Don't think a typical hydro assist setup has a big enough ram to have enough steering power in the rocks by itself, if you got a bigger ram the box would't have the flow capability to be used comfortably. As far as the centering goes, I don't think it would center. A regular power steering or hydro assist gets the centering from the mechanical link.

Full hydro here. No issues with on street driving, and actually drives better than it did with a steering box. Returns to center just fine. It's all in the selection of parts and going with parts from reputable vendors. Rockstomper, PSC, and POS are all good. Howe is good too, but tends to be difficult to deal with. I run Rockstomper parts on my jeep and couldn't be happier.

One argument against full hydro is that if it breaks on the trail getting back to base is a lot more difficult. I'm going hydro assist as one of my next upgrades, but full hydro is a nono for me personally.

Full hydro here. No issues with on street driving, and actually drives better than it did with a steering box. Returns to center just fine. It's all in the selection of parts and going with parts from reputable vendors. Rockstomper, PSC, and POS are all good. Howe is good too, but tends to be difficult to deal with. I run Rockstomper parts on my jeep and couldn't be happier.

WHat is your system configuration?? I will apreciate that info.
Thanks.