question for ya.

how far out should i be trying to train myself to shoot my handgun.

right now, i can predictably put together a respectable (to me) cluster at about 10 yards. at 20 yards its starts to open up a fair amount, but i can still keep them in the 8-9 point area of a target.

should i be spending more time to get the tight clusters at 20+ yards??

man sized target at reasonable engagement distances :D
25 yards or less, well unless you wanna get all fucking showy and shit :laughing:

200 yards.

:flipoff2:

25 yards is reasonable. Keep in mind that if you're seeking to improve your weapon handling skills for defensive purposes, the typical engagement range is 3-7 yards, and the threat is likely to approach from your 6 o'clock, not your 12.

I really hate typing, so before I start, What are you looking for? Do you want the holes to touch at 25yds, or do you just want to be able to cap an insurgent that storms your living room?

Many standard target ranges feature a 25 yard target set.

I'd go at least that distance...

If you are depending on a handgun for survival, I'd work to group shots out to 100 yards -- certainly do-able with good equipment and careful shooting.

Just remember, at 15 yards, 1/10" off on sight alignment on a 6" handgun = 6" or more off on the target. Sight control is your prime directive. After you learn to control the sight picture, then work on trigger control. Most shooters squeeze the gun frame at the same time as the trigger, causing flyers in the 6 o'clock position.

Sights, for target work, should be perfectly aligned and have equal space on both sides of the front blade. Eye focus is on the front blade with the target slightly fuzzy. Play with focus, extend it to your target, back to the rear sight notch, then forward to the front blade and lock it in place, then squeeze to fire.

Also work on your hold. Preferable is to learn to "circle" the arm versus waving it as you try to control movement. As you get better you tighten the circles (think those stupid arm spinning exercises you used to do in gym class). If you do this, and hold your sight pattern, you will find your groups more consistent. Those that try to shoot as they wave past the target fly all over the place...

Here are a couple of things, the first to illustrate proper sight picture, the second, proof that I do what I'm talking about... Shot with a Colt .45 ACP @ 15 yards in competition.

http://www.explorerforum.com/photopost/data/500/15014Sight_picture.JPG

http://www.explorerforum.com/photopost/data/503/medium/15014target.jpg

Heard a rumor the other day that the state is taking academy folks out to the 100 yard line and working them in so they qualify. Up until a few months ago, 2 shots from the 50 was a part of our qualification..........................

200 yards with a 10" 7/TCU




I have to lay down to do it though!

I zero my .45LC at 80 yards. My handloads are about 2" high at 30 yards. I shoot out to 150 on the range, but when I get bored of the rifle for ground squirrels I've taken them at over 250 yards artillery style (you know "fire for effect"). 250-265gr cast at 1400fps FYI.

That being said I can hit a man sized target 100% of the time at 100yds and in, same target at 150yds I can hit 80-90%, 200yds 70-80%, 300yds 60-70% but past that I'm no Elmer Keith.

With my Glock22 in 40S&W I site in at 15yards and shoot to 100 yards and thats it. The 40S&W and 9mm really start going to hell after 60yards. The 45ACP I would only shoot at 50yds and in, but if you practiced with the same load a lot then you could hit at 100yds but you really had to lob them in (FYI this is why I didn't like the 45GAP, past 30yds it was worthless).

I shoot at these ranges because I'm focused on shooting out in the boonies at game with the average range being 20-150 yards. For protection the less limits you put on yourself in a defensive situation the better, but start close and move up little by little. When you get to a range you can hit 90% of the time first shot and 100% with 2 shots then move up. I used to shoot/teach comparative shooting and this is how I got my best shooters. Too much too soon breaks most shooter's confidence.

I think the question back to you is what pistol are you taking about?

200 yards.

:flipoff2:

Funny, I shoot .30 or .357 Herret and 7mmTCU at that range. Course one is flat on ones back when shooting and the barrels a tad longer than the "typical" hand gun... :D

I also ran into a member of the local constabulary that plinked at cans with his snubby .375 at 100 yds when I was in CA. Course thats not 200 so it doesnt count now does it... ;) :D
D.

I think the question back to you is what pistol are you taking about?
i'm using a CZ75B

kinda your standard 9mm.

i ment to grab a pic last night of my target that i shot at +/- 20yds

for those of you shooting a handgun at something nearly 100yds, why???

i've always understood the need for a hand gun is for close quarters or something similar.

hell, i'm picking out a 7.62mm today for that stuff farther aways :D

I really hate typing, so before I start, What are you looking for? Do you want the holes to touch at 25yds, or do you just want to be able to cap an insurgent that storms your living room?
at a min, i wanna be able to lay any fawker down that is a threat to me or my friends i'm with or that comes in my house or tent or truck with ill intent.

i'm using the targets to get practice. i know ultimatly that shooting a 2" cluster on the paper doesn't mean squat in real life, but, it'll help make sure i'm gonna have a damn good chance to put some holes in who ever is comming at me.

100 yards? even 50 yards? You guys crack me up, those are fun distances to shoot at but work on from a few feet out to around 25-30 yards. Especially for the folks that carry concealment guns that have 1-2" barrels.

If you're shooting at someone 100 yards away good luck defending yourself in court that it was an immediate threat. Now if the attacker is shooting at you with his AR-15 from 100 yards you'd better run and hide cause you're completely out gunned.

We usually start out at like a couple feet, draw to bent elbow and shoot twice point blank, no aiming. After that most shots are fully drawn and in 3 shot bursts, 2 to the body and 1 to the head. We use score-able torso targets then tally the score at the end. A friend of mine is a FAM and we usually use a deviation of the course they qual with. We only go out to maybe 30 yards.

100 yards? even 50 yards? You guys crack me up, those are fun distances to shoot at but work on from a few feet out to around 25-30 yards. Especially for the folks that carry concealment guns that have 1-2" barrels.

If you're shooting at someone 100 yards away good luck defending yourself in court that it was an immediate threat. Now if the attacker is shooting at you with his AR-15 from 100 yards you'd better run and hide cause you're completely out gunned.

We usually start out at like a couple feet, draw to bent elbow and shoot twice point blank, no aiming. After that most shots are fully drawn and in 3 shot bursts, 2 to the body and 1 to the head. We use score-able torso targets then tally the score at the end. A friend of mine is a FAM and we usually use a deviation of the course they qual with. We only go out to maybe 30 yards.


I "hear" what yer saying but you gotta admit that iffen yer consistently precise-accurate (AKA tight groups in the appropriate place) at 50+ yds then yer definately going to be accurate at 10-25 ft in a more common "pinch" scenario like you describe... ;)

D.

We usually start out at like a couple feet, draw to bent elbow and shoot twice point blank, no aiming. After that most shots are fully drawn and in 3 shot bursts, 2 to the body and 1 to the head.

doesn't training with a paper target give you a false sense of shot placement? your gonna get in the habit of 2 to the body, up 12 inches, and one to the head, which is a good policy. but in actuality, is the head going to still be 12 inches directly above the body after you've put 2 rounds in it? not arguing with you, just looking for insight.

for the original question. when i shoot, i typically focus more on drawing from concealment quickly, and getting shots off that hit a human size target at less than 10 feet. if an assailant is 100 yards off, i have time to hide, or find a bigger gun.

doesn't training with a paper target give you a false sense of shot placement?

Yes because most people cant judge distance for shit. Go on a walking shoot. Shoot stumps, dirt clods, cow pies, etc. Then pace off your shots with what you thought they were. You get good fast that way. Works with rifles and archery too.

If you're shooting at someone 100 yards away good luck defending yourself in court that it was an immediate threat. Now if the attacker is shooting at you with his AR-15 from 100 yards you'd better run and hide cause you're completely out gunned.

Bullshit. If I can take you at 100 yards, I can take you at 100 yards. If my 265gr slug even gets close then they know its a fight. Does this mean I've be cool with taking on somebody with that advantage? Nope but it doesn't leave me out of the fight to piss myself and die crying.

for those of you shooting a handgun at something nearly 100yds, why???

100 yards really isnt that far as bullets go. In the city sure gunfights are usually measured in feet but, in the back country it can be very far.

I use my handguns for hunting/target/defense so I shoot at all kinds of ranges. For a close range self-defense scenario just aim center mass and shoot until the attacker is dead or cannot continue the fight. Don't get fancy just start causing massive bodily damage.

question for ya...

how far out should i be trying to train myself to shoot my handgun?
Okay, your later posts indicate defensive use as your goal, not target matches. So I'm framing my response accordingly.

Training to shoot further away? Sure. Later.

I honestly believe that the biggest deficiency for most gun owners is that they aren't proficient at running their gun fast. A target at 10-yards should soak up center-mass hits as fast as you can pull the trigger.

The Bill Drill is a good example of this. At 10 yards, it's a draw, and 6 shots on the chest of one target. I'm just shy of Expert in IDPA, and it takes me about 2.9-3.2 seconds on average. New guys it takes 6 or 7 seconds, and they've got some misses scattered in there to boot.

Get better at shooting fast, then work on shooting far. In the event of a serial killer loose in your home... you're far more likely to need the former. ;)

Yes because most people cant judge distance for shit. Go on a walking shoot. Shoot stumps, dirt clods, cow pies, etc. Then pace off your shots with what you thought they were. You get good fast that way. Works with rifles and archery too.



Do that type of shooting every time I compete at the pre 1840 rendezvous I attend... :D

Yer right about it being a heck of a lot harder than it looks and exactly for the reason you identified, folks dont necessarily range properly, A..........N........D not only does that get one off the bench and shooting offhand (the "proper" way) but the ranging exersize helps iffen someone happens to hunt so one doesnt necessarily need to spend $$$$$$$ or pack range finders.

D.

Different handguns, different purposes...

I've shot deer with a .357 at ranges to 100 yards with no problems, but shot placement REALLY becomes an issue with that power/bullet weight versus that distance on deer-sized animals. I've also worked close in with the .45 at speed. Totally different discipline.

One of my favorites is to hot load my Ruger Mark I and shoot prairie dogs at 100+ yards (my gun loves the stinger + hollow points). Mostly all you get on dogs at that range is a target about 2" across and 4" tall. To score, you have to hold well.

But, I also like speed events with the .45. A local favorite is shooting bowling pins... We line up 5 pins on a 4x8' table, draw at the whistle and shoot until the table is clear. My best time is 3.83 seconds. I also shoot another local game with silhouette targets, one at 7 yards, one at 15, and one at 25. Ten rounds per target -- 10 seconds to fire 6 rounds. Reload off the clock, then again, until the 30 are fired. Only the range master knows which lane your targets are in, you start blind. Scored according to standard silhouette target markings -- held a 283 average out of 300 in that game.

Bulleseye, offhand, both indoors and outdoors is another discipline -- very formal and not of much use in the practical world, but fighting for every point in order to score top in league play makes for a good shooter in the other games/defense arenas.

Like I said above, master sight picture and gun control and the rest comes with it.

Nope but it doesn't leave me out of the fight to piss myself and die crying.



My point was if you're 100+ yards away from your attacker then the need for using deadly force to defend yourself diminishes. If you shoot someone in self defense expect to spend some time in court defending your actions.

My point was if you're 100+ yards away from your attacker then the need for using deadly force to defend yourself diminishes. If you shoot someone in self defense expect to spend some time in court defending your actions.

Anytime you shoot someone expect to spend time in court defending your actions.

Anytime you shoot someone expect to spend time in court defending your actions.

Is there an echo in here? :D:flipoff2:

Okay, your later posts indicate defensive use as your goal, not target matches. So I'm framing my response accordingly.

Training to shoot further away? Sure. Later.

I honestly believe that the biggest deficiency for most gun owners is that they aren't proficient at running their gun fast. A target at 10-yards should soak up center-mass hits as fast as you can pull the trigger.

The Bill Drill is a good example of this. At 10 yards, it's a draw, and 6 shots on the chest of one target. I'm just shy of Expert in IDPA, and it takes me about 2.9-3.2 seconds on average. New guys it takes 6 or 7 seconds, and they've got some misses scattered in there to boot.

Get better at shooting fast, then work on shooting far. In the event of a serial killer loose in your home... you're far more likely to need the former. ;)


I tend to agree with this. When breaking someone into USPSA competition, we also emphasize learning to clear a jam and reload with speed. We'll place a few random empty cases in their magazines to cause jams.
A real popular qualifier stage (and good training drill) in USPSA is an El Presidente. You start at 15yds at surrender position (hands at shoulder height) with your back to 3 targets. At the buzzer, you turn and draw, and put two rounds into each target, reload, and put two more rounds into each target. I usually run it in the high 7's to low 8's. Master and grand master class shooters run it in the three second range.

we also emphasize learning to clear a jam and reload with speed. We'll place a few random empty cases in their magazines to cause jams.


Great point, another thing that should be practiced and practiced if you carry an auto.

I carry a revolver myself for this primary reason, reliability.

what do you mean when you say 'reload'???

just clearing the chamber and getting a live round back in the barrel??

You've shot the gun empty, and there are still guys shooting at you.

You've shot the gun empty, and there are still guys shooting at you.
so then what you're telling what fishhead is saying is that he can shoot twice, drop the mag, reload it with two round, shoot twice more, drop the mag, reload it again with two more rounds, and fire those two in 7+ seconds???

so then what you're telling what fishhead is saying is that he can shoot twice, drop the mag, reload it with two round, shoot twice more, drop the mag, reload it again with two more rounds, and fire those two in 7+ seconds???

I believe in this case, "reload" would be after six (or more, if your aim isn't that good?) shots from the first mag, put in another mag, and shoot six more. Or refill the cylinder (as opposed to slamming in another mag) in the case of a revolver.

No he is talking about practicing clearing a jam. He puts empty cases in between live rounds to cause malfunctions. If you have an auto its a clear and return to fire scenario.

No he is talking about practicing clearing a jam. He puts empty cases in between live rounds to cause malfunctions. If you have an auto its a clear and return to fire scenario.
gotcha.

Sorry, yeah. I actually read what he was saying this time. :rolleyes:

But I can do 6 well-aimed shots, reload, and 6 more in about 8 seconds. And I'm not very fast... ;)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1857099201263572996

The art of clearing jams with an auto-loading pistol is required for any serious competition and/or protection work, as is the changing of a magazine (clip). Clearing jams is accomplished with a sweeping motion on the slide with the free hand, clearing the loose or stove-piped round, while the reload is a push, pop, push sweep of the new magazine into the grip well of the pistol. Both may be accomplished in very short amounts of time with practice. Certain modifications of the pistol frame and slide help to insure both rapid reloading and less frequent jams.

Here is a good training video from Todd Jarrett that I've found that illustrates the speed and practice of rapid fire shooting. Master the stuff he is talking about and you're well on your way to taking care of business, be that target work or protection work.

http://splodetv.com/how-todd-jarrett

Lots of good info posted here. I agree on the 10 and 25 yard range practice. Unless you are hunting with that pistol, anything more than 50 yards in purely academic. Fun, but academic.

I think that the academies are teaching breathing control and timing more than anything since you'd be a fool to take a 100 yard pistol shot. That's what the rifle in the car is for. ;)

Clearing drills, double tap practice, and reloading are what really count. That and safely clearing your holster. You're not a cowboy, so draw within a reasonable amount of time. If you want to practice fast draw, find some cowboy competition guys and get the training that will prevent you from shooting yourself in the leg. :D

Most confrontations with a handgun are up close and personal. Practice with the gun you plan to use the most often. Train yourself to operate the levers without thinking. Get used to the feel of the piece so until you can accurately shoot all center mass instinctually, rather than depending so much on the sights. It will come.

Read up on some of the old timers too. It's amazing what you can pick up from these guys. Some of them have been mentioned already. Bill Jordan, Elmer Keith, Massad Ayoob, Todd Jarrett, etc.

Don't forget to work in some practice drills that you enjoy. It's makes a day at the range seem less like work, and more like fun....

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