gearing up to take out my stock axles( amc 20 ) and swap in a full floater kit and heavy duty det locker. who what and how do I do this, aare there any special tools needed ( beside s beer )

All that work and $ just to have the axle tubes fall out 200 miles down the road.

That is allot of $$$ to spend and have nothing good. Build a 60 and ditch all that bolt on crap. There is a good TOTW about building custome axles that has most all the info you would need.

According to a guy in my club you can put together a rear 60 SF for around $800, with a welded rear.....FWIW.

All this mis-information. :rolleyes: Go here....... (http://www.randysringandpinion.com/gear/g0898.shtml)

Originally posted by ROKWALKER
All this mis-information. :rolleyes: Go here....... (http://www.randysringandpinion.com/gear/g0898.shtml)

Way to add to it. So spending $700 on a Warn FF kit and another $500 on a Detroit is a good idea you say.......

Nothing wrong with the AMC20. Just cause the Joneses run them, doesn't mean you to. :flipoff2: (I'll catch shit for that remark.. I know it)

ok.. secret to making your amc20 work

1) Truss the HELL out of it.
2) dont' FF it, its not worth the $$. if you snap an axle, as long as it wasn't at the bearings, the bearings and collar should hold it long enough to get to a spot to fix it. heck.. sometimes long enough to get home if not too far.
3) Do something about the flimsy OEM diff cover.

That is allot of $$$ to spend and have nothing good.

Nothing good? But, you'd probably suggest a 44 over it as well i'd bet? My m20 w/detroit, 4.10's and Mosers has costed me in the neighborhood of $400.

According to a guy in my club you can put together a rear 60 SF for around $800, with a welded rear...

A welded rear? Great for those trailer queens. :bender: :rainbow:

Just 'cuz you heard from a guy who knows a guy who heard from a guy doesn't mean it's law.

Twalder is right. Unless of course you are getting the FF kit for dirt cheap I wouldn't do it. Although, it would be nice to have. Just get some one piece axles you can probably find for $150 or so.

Someone want to explain to me why a welded rear end is for trailer queens only? I have run my full spool on the street for many miles and hands down prefer it over a detroit or lock right. Maybe all the experience i have isnt worth a dime :rolleyes: The CJ M20 rear end is a turd. Go ahead throw money at it but dont complain to me when the tubes start falling out and you wonder why you keep eating detroits. Hmmm. If you were talking about the Waggy/J-truck M20 then i would say that you have a very decent rear end for you rig. But what do i know.

Sorry.. I was speaking of the waggie M20. I compared a waggie M20 to a CJ model just on the outside... I noticed a few things.


There was more webbing on the waggie M20 diff compared to teh CJ.

The axle tubes are larger (1/4-1/2") than the CJ version.

the axle tubes on teh waggie M20 are at least 5/16" thick? I'll have to cut up my screwed up 20 tube I got for the axle shafts to find that out one of these days for sure.

Originally posted by ROKWALKER


A welded rear? Great for those trailer queens. :bender: :rainbow:

Just 'cuz you heard from a guy who knows a guy who heard from a guy doesn't mean it's law.

Twalder is right. Unless of course you are getting the FF kit for dirt cheap I wouldn't do it. Although, it would be nice to have. Just get some one piece axles you can probably find for $150 or so.

Bwahahaha. Trailer queens:D Don't be pissed because some people have a tow rig and you don't :laughing:

Welded rears aren't much different than a Detroit on the road, but I'm sure you have no idea. :rolleyes:

A 20 will be perfect if you are gonna build a pussy jeep, but if you are gonna wheel, you need some real axles under your rig...maybe not right away..but soon. Why build shit twice? Put money into a 20, and you probably won't be able to give it away.

As for the hearsay on the 60 build-up, read about it here (http://bc4x4.com/tech/2000/highpiniond60rear/highpiniond60rear.cfm)

Originally posted by LAME

A 20 will be perfect if you are gonna build a pussy jeep, but if you are gonna wheel, you need some real axles under your rig...maybe not right away..but soon. Why build shit twice? Put money into a 20, and you probably won't be able to give it away.


:rolleyes:

So.. tell me, if he only wants to run 33 or 35" tires WHY run a 60. and WHY is that a pussy jeep? (no... he never did mention tire size)

No, build the 20, by the way, if you need a detroit and 2 sets of wide trac one piece axles, i'll sell them to you, I am doing a 60.:flipoff2: I'll throw in a bent housing that has the tubes welded to the dif.;)

Originally posted by twaldher


:rolleyes:

So.. tell me, if he only wants to run 33 or 35" tires WHY run a 60. and WHY is that a pussy jeep? (no... he never did mention tire size)

He doesn't need a 60 then , he needs a Super 35:flipoff2:

I am gonna make a blanket statement that I feel is correct. 95-99% of the Jeeps with 33-35's don't wheel. If you are gonna build a rig to use, and wheel, you are gonna end up going bigger than 35"
Rear 44's and 20's can be built to work, but for a rear axle it isn't much more $$$ to go with a 60. I would rather be able to pick lines without worry about how my axles will deal with it.....

Umm... guess you never trussed the 20 housing. LOL :flipoff2:

Originally posted by LAME


He doesn't need a 60 then , he needs a Super 35:flipoff2:

I am gonna make a blanket statement that I feel is correct. 95-99% of the Jeeps with 33-35's don't wheel. If you are gonna build a rig to use, and wheel, you are gonna end up going bigger than 35"
Rear 44's and 20's can be built to work, but for a rear axle it isn't much more $$$ to go with a 60. I would rather be able to pick lines without worry about how my axles will deal with it.....

Where do you live? I would say in WA at least, and I be many other states. 95-99% of those with 33-35" tires DO wheel, at least up here.

With my waggie 20 that I swapped in (yes.. I said swapped) to replace the D35c. I would feel comfortable up to 38.5" tires and not worrying about it. (of course, driving styles vary) However, my 20 has been trussed with 2" scd40 and 1/4" steel plate.

just to be devils advocate here...

we had a cj dana 20 show up yesterday at the shop. guy had 410's and 1 peice axles (he is strictly a poser he restores jeeps but doent know anything about beef). evidently whoever did his gear install didnt put the right bolts in the carrier and as the bolts loosened one smacked the bottom of the diff and put a hole in it about 1" across and 1.5" wide basicly busted a chunk out. now i know cj d20's were tiny but i jaw dropped when i saw how thin the housing was. no more then somewhere between 1/8-1/4" this thing was paper thin. he wasnts john to weld the hole closed and reset the gears (bad idea in my mind id pick up another housing but then again i wouldnt be using that axle to begin with.

anyways just wanted to share something with you guys since your talkin 20's.

DP:zzz:

There is a difference between a CJ20 and a waggie 20 though. They aren't the same axle housing.

Originally posted by twaldher


Where do you live? I would say in WA at least, and I be many other states. 95-99% of those with 33-35" tires DO wheel, at least up here.

With my waggie 20 that I swapped in (yes.. I said swapped) to replace the D35c. I would feel comfortable up to 38.5" tires and not worrying about it. (of course, driving styles vary) However, my 20 has been trussed with 2" scd40 and 1/4" steel plate.

I'm pretty sure we have a different idea on what wheelin is;)

Most guys are running 33-35's around on YJ-TJ's are strictly mall rigs in MN. A good friend of mine wheels the shit out of his YJ with 35's. but he is by far the minority. It's fun to watch mall jeeps drop their jaws when the see a YJ that is trail ready at any minute on the, but looks painfull stock when on the trail with the guys we wheel with.

You feel comfortable with doing that...have at it:D

Originally posted by LAME


I'm pretty sure we have a different idea on what wheelin is;)



Maybe, Maybe not. We have a very wide variety of trails out here. if you want to run them all you are basically stuck with the following:

Max Width - 80" (if you want to run rimrock, from what I hear, there is not really way to get through wider than that. haven't been there, so I could be wrong.)

Max wheelbase - 105" or so. (Haven't really heard of anyone longer than that trying to run elbe, at least not without body damage.)

Max tire size - 36-38", typical is 33-35" - more dictated by lift than anything. We have this thing called off-camber out here. Try trails running 40 degrees off camber over stretches. ;)

At least... thats what I have seen in my limited experience.

excellent response there twaldher.

I know its borrowed time but my buddy has a amc 20 with 33X12.5 and he isn't very nice on the go peddle. Has broken drive shafts, drive shaft splines, ujoints, tranny mounts, motor mounts and dumped it twice and the only thing wrong with the 20 is the bloody cover leaks.

It is a narrow track which I think makes a huge difference in the forces exerted on the housing.

Before I get flamed I will not allow him to dump any money into it and I do think it is a piece of sh*^

arndog

The M20 will work but the point is that there are better upgrades for the same amount of $ or less. The 20 will live but why chance it. Upgrade and be done. The D70 in the rear of my YJ is the very last component that i worry about when i am wheelin. If you are going down fire roads all day then keep the M20 but dont FF it and Detroit the thing. Huge waste of money in my eyes and probably most of the people on this board.

ok.. I want to compare costs. Lets assume the axle can be no wider than 60" (e.g. the waggie M20) for trail reasons. Meaning... can NOT be full width.

My M20 cost me about $900 from scratch, including the purchase price. What I did to it:

Replaced all seals
Replaced all bearings
1350 M20 Yoke (for the 1350 CV)
NEW 4.56 R&P
NEW Detriot
Sand Blasted the housing, painted with POR-15.
NEW brakes, brake hardware, springs, etc.
Turned the drums
Trussed w/ 2" scd-40

Fixing the leaky cover problem w/ a custom made diff cover out of 1/4" plate. figure $20 in scrap metal and my time.

Now, how much would a D60 cost to: (note, you can do all labor yourself except for cutting down the axle, since 99% of people don't have that capability, where as at least you have hope of setting up your own gears)

Cut down to 60"
Custom length axle shafts
4.56 gears
Detriot
1350 Yoke (if it doesn't already have one)
All new bearings, seals, brake hardware

There is the other thing to consider, if you are only running 33-35" tires. you will loose ground clearance (how much I dont know) running the D60 vs. the M20. If you say shave it, include that in the cost, the labor to do that. once again, most folks just don't have the expertise or equipment.

Originally posted by arndog

I know its borrowed time but my buddy has a amc 20 with 33X12.5 and he isn't very nice on the go peddle. Has broken drive shafts, drive shaft splines, ujoints, tranny mounts, motor mounts and dumped it twice and the only thing wrong with the 20 is the bloody cover leaks.



2 words......Axle Wrap!

I will agree that the waggy 20 and CJ 20 are not the same and that it isn't a pile of sh!t but the CJ 20 is and this guy drives a CJ.

...............holy shit I forgot to mention the ff and detroit is free, my buddie snaped his tubes, your are right the tubes are week and the gear are infiour.. If I was Paying for this stuff I would buy a sixty, with disc and run a spool like rockslut said but I am not paying for crap and this stuff is free so back to the idea any tricks to get the oe shafts out and the hub is stipped off

The axle should come out easy once you pull the bolts holding the bearing in. There will be 4 I would bet. If you need to pull the hub off the taper on the other axle then it takes a puller for that. If it is anything like it was pulling the hubs off the old 2 piece 44 axles then it takes a sh!t load of pressure and a few good hits with a hammer on the shaft of the puller to get the hub off the taper.

Originally posted by twaldher
There was more webbing on the waggie M20 diff compared to teh CJ.

The axle tubes are larger (1/4-1/2") than the CJ version.

Also the wheel-bearings are considerably larger on the SJ M20's vs. the CJ M20's.

I'm currently building a Waggy M20 for my new Jeep. By the time I'm done, I'll have around $600 total. 4.88 gears, Custom Spool & Custom 33 Spline Axles. Also I shaved it, so I'll have considerable ground clearance over a 60.

Too funny I like the guys like Dean who stay on topic and make good points. Then there's Rockwalker ( by the way Dean said 60 not 44) who I agreed with when someone was talking 44 vs 20, but the topic was about putting a full floater and detroit in with the use of extra :beer: I agree why waste your time. Drive the piss out of it stock, when it breaks do a real upgrade No Rockwalker not a 44.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that you can build a 20 for dirt cheap. Of course a d60 or a d70 is stronger but, that doesn't dictate wether or not a 20 is weak. The bad rap came from the 2 piece axle design. Then came along the one piece axle and peope thought........hmmmm.....lets lock it up. Then came the next weakest link. The housing..........Assuming you haven't twisted a driveline or blown out your u-joints yet.

The big thing used to be more about cj-5's and how their shorter wheelbase and tighter turning radius ruled all. Even when people started going 1-ton they at least shortened the axles down so the vehicle wouldn't 1) be too wide and 2) look so god awful ridiculous. Then came along this "one guy" who (with lack of knowledge, desire or $$$) just "bolted" the puppy on and went wheeling. Then some other d00d....apparently drunk on keystone said "d00d.....that r0ks" and the birth of the full width jeep began. (not saying it won't get you in and out of places that a narrow or wide track jeep would and i'm not saying it's not better)

Personally i'm not a fan of the "full-width" jeep. It reminds me too much of the late 80's and early 90's when slammed samurai's were roaming the streets. Very ghetto! :grinpimp: That's just my opinion. To you it may be the greatest thing since graded cheese. I'm also not a fan of any vehicle that isn't street legal. Rock buggy's extreme wheelers. Again.......just an opinion of my own. I'm just more impressed with the guy that can pass california smog/street laws and still climb any obstacle in front of him. Again.......not trying to bring on the flames so, i'll state again.......that doesn't mean that YOURS isn't better so, pass the urge and refrain. :flipoff2:

Anyways.......the topic. I don't think misfit asked anything about a d60 in his original post. Rockslut and Lame decided that he NEEDED to know that a d60 is far superior in strength than an m20. I don't think that was ever in debate. ;) Just because he's going to run an M20 doesn't make it a "pussy" jeep. (Sounds like there's some penis envy going on in these boards) Maybe he doesn't LIVE to wheel. Maybe he doesn't do it to the extremes that you do. Or, Maybe he knows how to drive? Concept.

For me personally........I'm going to keep my M20. If or when the time comes that I break it then i'll have to decide wether or not I wan't to upgrade but, i'm not going to trash it just because a guy heard from a guy who knew a guy. :beer:

dean I didn't mean to argue the strength of a 20 just merely posting a different angle. The axle is clearly a piece and thats why I said the borrowed time comment. Either way you have some mad skills so if you could shorten a 60 for us that would be cool :D just kidding no cash for that

arndog

Originally posted by twaldher
ok.. I want to compare costs. Lets assume the axle can be no wider than 60" (e.g. the waggie M20) for trail reasons. Meaning... can NOT be full width.

My M20 cost me about $900 from scratch, including the purchase price. What I did to it:

Replaced all seals
Replaced all bearings
1350 M20 Yoke (for the 1350 CV)
NEW 4.56 R&P
NEW Detriot
Sand Blasted the housing, painted with POR-15.
NEW brakes, brake hardware, springs, etc.
Turned the drums
Trussed w/ 2" scd-40

Fixing the leaky cover problem w/ a custom made diff cover out of 1/4" plate. figure $20 in scrap metal and my time.

Now, how much would a D60 cost to: (note, you can do all labor yourself except for cutting down the axle, since 99% of people don't have that capability, where as at least you have hope of setting up your own gears)

Cut down to 60"
Custom length axle shafts
4.56 gears
Detriot
1350 Yoke (if it doesn't already have one)
All new bearings, seals, brake hardware

There is the other thing to consider, if you are only running 33-35" tires. you will loose ground clearance (how much I dont know) running the D60 vs. the M20. If you say shave it, include that in the cost, the labor to do that. once again, most folks just don't have the expertise or equipment.

Well, I have the expriance, and friends to get my 60 shortened to 58.75" for a few beers.
Would I run a 60 with 35"..no, but I am gonna have 38" or larger.
35 spline moser shafts=$475??
Disk it $100
the rear 60 is only about $75 around here, to start with.
Get a carrier and spiders=$100

misc BS=$100

Hmmm $775 for a 60 rear, I think that might be a bit better than the same $$$ for a 20. If you are only gonna run 35" it is a moot point, bigger, you need a 60.

that was my point though.... MOST people don't have the experience or friends to shorten it. So... to be FAIR in a cost comparison, how much would it cost? what about the cost of ring and pinion?

man.. only $75? Up in WA a rear 60 can go for $400 easy.

Originally posted by twaldher
that was my point though.... MOST people don't have the experience or friends to shorten it. So... to be FAIR in a cost comparison, how much would it cost? what about the cost of ring and pinion?

man.. only $75? Up in WA a rear 60 can go for $400 easy.

ring and pinion =$200 fare enough

Around here D60 rears are adime a dozen

It cost around $300 to get a front shortened...tubes and knuckles.

I DO have the option of not dealing with 20's, so I do. I guess I am lucky to have the freinds I have.

Plain and simple it cost me as much to build a 60 as it does a 20......what would you do?

Depends on the tires I want to run..... but ignoring tires...

If a D60 would cost me the same as a M20, I would of course go the 60 route.

Problem up here is... It would probably cost me $1500 to build one, after I found one. We have some nasty inflated prices, though.. sometimes for $100 you can get one out of a pick-n-pull. But.. then its too wide for the trails I go on and for the tires I run its too big (loss of ground clearance) without shaving it.