I'm looking to purchase a solid used MDT for my business and came to the realization there's a lot I don't know about them. I'm currently using a '75 C60 14' dump which is my fathers, and I will be looking for something similar.

My budget is about $6000, and I'm mostly interested in '75-90 vintage trucks, gas or diesel, 24,000-33,000 GVWR, hyd. or air brakes. I will be putting a heavy duty 14' flat bed on it (with removable 4' sides) to haul fencing material, equipment, shale, dirt, brush, etc. I also plan to tow a 25' pintle hitch trailer, 20K rated.

Which brings me to my first question, I currently do not have a CDL, and although getting one wouldn't be a problem, I would rather not have to. Say I get a truck rated at 24,000lbs, and put a 20,000lb GVWR trailer behind it, my GCWR is 44,000lbs, well over the CDL limit. Does this mean I need a CDL for said rig, or does it go by the GVWR of the truck and trailer separate?

I know quite a bit about the C60, F700, and other offerings from Ford and Chevy, but I've also seen numerous good International trucks for sale. There's one particular one thats a very clean, low mile '79 S-???? (2-ton), 404ci V8, 5spd+2spd rear axle. How hard is it to find parts for these old IH trucks, especially these old gas motors?

If anyone has any other info about what to look for in a MDT, your personal experiences with whats good and whats not, I would enjoy hearing about it.

Thanks in advance.

if total weight is over 26k...need cdl


it does not go by truck and trailer seperate.

some states require a cdl if the trailer is over 10k, no matter what the truck is (depending on who you talk to, va is one of them - but dot says not needed)

All states are a little different, but in most states CDL B is a vehicle over 26,000 lbs with a trailer under 10,000 lbs and a cdl A is for trailers over 10,000 lbs.

You "technically" need a CDL A to move your trailer under any circumstances, towed behind anything. Many states have a non-cdl A for driving personal vehicles, motorhomes, fire equipment, ect.

Good news: You need a CDL-A anyways, so get as much truck as you can afford. Insurance and tax rates and registration go up with weight ratings, remember.

International makes a good truck, their 466 is legendary in medium duty truck circles. Old international gassers are fine, you can still find parts for them, but they love the gas man.

In that age truck, I would buy the driveline and settle for whatever sheetmetal is wrapped around it.

Motors. I mainly know about the diesels, heres a quick rundown.

International:
466/530 : good motor
9L diesel: RUN
444: decent motor, slightly underpowered

Detroit:
8.2L : RUN

Ford/New Holland:
6.6L/7.2L Brazilian : Good, sometimes poor parts availiability

Cummins:
5.9: Decent, slightly under powered for a medium
8.3: Good

Clatterpillar:
A number of models in the 7L straight six size. Decent motors, parts are notoriously expensive.

Transmissions:
Allisons (pretty much the only auto you will find): Good, but they suck alot of power.
Manuals: Pretty much all the same.


One important thing to remember, especially in that age: many trucks were gear-bound to 55-60. That might be fine with you, but it is something to look at. It can be changed with a different tranny or rear, but it is more money on a truck you just bought. Do the math or an extended test drive, and make sure you can live with the top end.

www.vannattabros.com has some good reading on "vintage" trucks in the truck section.

stay away fro mthe older F series ford trucks. the LN fords are great, but the F's suck.
LN ford or a GM brigadeere would be my choice
(GM top kicks are not made heavy enough)

I'd look for an older binder with a 466, with as many gears as you can find. 6 speeds work(avoid the 6 speed+, as they have issues jumping out of 6th gear), but they are often geared really low to compensate for the lack of gears. A 9 speed would be ideal, but harder to find. However, a 5x2 setup is really common, stupid simple to drive, and often will have a taller overall gear, for better mileage and speed.
Also, get air brakes.

numerous good International trucks for sale. There's one particular one thats a very clean, low mile '79 S-???? (2-ton), 404ci V8, 5spd+2spd rear axle. How hard is it to find parts for these old IH trucks, especially these old gas motors?



The S-Series of trucks is a good series of trucks. They built them for along time and they came in every form imagineable. The 404 on the other hand is another story. You can get parts for them, straight from International, but they really aren't that great of an engine. They are an MV series of engine or medium V. The light line (pickup's, travelalls and Scouts) used SV's or small V's. Anyway, the 404 and sister 446 are notoriously under powered and run very hot, hence they burn through exhaust components, like manifolds. Most IH guys even shy away from the 404/446 and personally I would take the SV 392 over the MV 404 anyday. I am not saying go out and find youself an SV powered truck, for what you want to do diesel is a MUST.

Thanks for all the good info, looks like I will be getting my CDL in the near future then.

Top speed doesn't bother me, I'm fine with cruising at 55mph on the interstate, most of the trucks I have been looking at are either 4 or 5 spd with a 2spd rear, so they are gear pretty low (around 6.50 on high axle).

The one thing that makes me want to shy away from the old gas trucks is fuel consumption, however the diesels in this size truck don't get very good mileage either. The C60 I have been using just has an old 350 and 4+2spd and gets about 8mpg empty, 6 loaded heavy. My uncle just bought a new C5500 4x4 w/ a duramax and allison and only gets 9mpg empty, not sure loaded (but its not rated as heavy as a C60).

Someone tell me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen most of the 4spds are smaller transmissions SM465, NP435, etc, and when you go to the 5spd you acutally get into a MDT transmission, Spicer, Clarke, etc?

Another option would be buy an old truck with what every old gas motor comes in it, and swap in a 12V cummins. The only thing I'm not sure about is the gearing, as it might over rev the motor to run 55 on the highway.

Thanks for all the info so far, I'm sure I'll have more questions to come.

5 speed - when I was researcing the uhaul (International S1600) chassis. They were mostly standard with a Spicer 5 speed (non OD) 1st was granny and 5th was 1:1...

And honeslty it had a decient gear spread.. I saw many flat beds with similer tranny with a 2 speed rear, that would seem ideal for moving a heavier load. I didn't notice trannys with more gears until you got into the larger class trucks which with the weight rating you want you might be into those..

As mentioned the biggest issue with most was top speed due to gearing.. so if your ok at 55mph, I think you will have zero problem finding somthing closer to the 1990s erra.. And especially if your ok with a gasser... also many late 80s chevys C60s/C70s had 366/427/454 big blocks...

good luck

Got a couple more questions, say I were to purchase the IH with the 404, what bellhousing does it run? Would an older 7.3L Navistar or DT466 swap in?

Also, as for the older Chevys, how much more power does the 366 actually have over the 350, or was the 366 offered mostly as a more durable option?

Got a couple more questions, say I were to purchase the IH with the 404, what bellhousing does it run? Would an older 7.3L Navistar or DT466 swap in?

Also, as for the older Chevys, how much more power does the 366 actually have over the 350, or was the 366 offered mostly as a more durable option?

The 366 was a industrial, truck, and boat engine. The 350 was a car engine.

Another question. It's my understanding that if you have a rv the gvwr is out the window. looking a a 22' box truck to convert to a toterhome then pull a 30+ ft trailer for 2 rigs.

Got a couple more questions, say I were to purchase the IH with the 404, what bellhousing does it run? Would an older 7.3L Navistar or DT466 swap in?

Also, as for the older Chevys, how much more power does the 366 actually have over the 350, or was the 366 offered mostly as a more durable option?

The bellhousing should be an SAE bellhousing to mate to the transmission, but I don't know about the engine side. The 466 probably won't bolt to it, but the 7.3 (444 in IH terms) might. The MV and the 7.3L trucks have very similar blocks. I can't, however say for sure either way.

The 366 was a industrial, truck, and boat engine. The 350 was a car engine.

the top kicks or c chevy trucks where offered with many a gas motor.
all the way from a V6 to a 350, 366, 427,if you want to get one that moves get a 427 and take off the smog crap, put on a new carb and get a new distributer(late 80's had major problems with oil coming up the shafts and into the cap)

Another question. It's my understanding that if you have a rv the gvwr is out the window. looking a a 22' box truck to convert to a toterhome then pull a 30+ ft trailer for 2 rigs.

thats fine for personal use. its not a good idea to use a "motor home" for your business(i.e.,comercial use) to try and aboid weight restrictions.

but yes,if you convert a bus,semi,MD truck,or anything to a motor home via a new title,then there are different rules,wich will vary from state to state. i converted my 75 IH school bus to a motor home. plates are now cheap,insurance is reasonable,and ohio DMV tells me i dont need a CDL to drive it,despite having air brakes.though im not convinced 100% that the guy i talked to knew what he was talking about. my advice would be to research it in whatever state youre in and plan on driving thru. and then consider how youre going to have to really careful where you take a 22 foot box truck and a 30' bumper pull trailer,since it wont be the easiest thing to get around tight corners :eek:

FWIW, I used to work at a place that had a late 80's GMC w/carb'd 366 and 5 speed, and a mid '90s TBI 427 and 6 speed. Even with a fresh rebuild on the 366, there was no comparison between the two, powerwise. The 427 would run circles around the 366.

Pete

You live in the hills, so I would DEFINETLY shy away from anything less than a big block. If it were me I would get a older 2 ton chevy with a big two stroke diesel...they sound nice :smokin: A few loggers who drive old trucks use them. Them old international gas engines last forever but are dogs power wise.

One can easily clear up all of the license and weight class questions by pulling the state title that contains your motor vehicle code for commercial and non commercial vehicles. DO NOT rely on what a website says, what a DMV clerk says or even a trooper, that is not the law.. copy it at the library or print it online and keep it with you, saves a lot of hassle down the road..

If you are looking at an auto look for an MT643 or MT653 Allison. They are a little tougher to find and will cost more money, but they are a fantastic choice. They are 4 speed directs with a lockup converter in 3rd and 4th. They have a higher max input torque rating and max GVWR rating than the AT545. Don't get me wrong...the AT545 is a decent transmission and I really like mine, but it emasculates whatever engine is in front of it and will cost you some mileage and top speed because it doesn't have a lock up converter. On the flip side you can get a remaned AT545 with a GOOD warranty for less than a remaned 4L60E in many cases.

I would atleast consider looking at old school buses. They have some really nice stuff going for them.

1. Strip off the body and you have an MDT. They are built on a true MDT chassis

2. They are relatively cheap, cheaper than the same vintage MDT in most cases

3. They are notoriously well maintained. School bus inspections go far beyond what a regular MDT will see on its inspection.

4. They rarely see a real load. My bus is rated with a 30,000 GVWR and with the conversion, full tanks, and 7 people inside it was at 20,000 lbs.

To put it into perspective...I paid $1407.25 for my 1989 B700 based Wayne 65 passenger bus (36 ft tip to tail). It has a 6.6 Ford-New Holland Brazilian diesel, AT545, 18,000 lbs Rockwell rear with 4.56 gears, a 12,000 lbs Rockwell front, 10.00R20 tires around (taller than most MDT's), air brakes, and 90,xxx miles as of now. This past weekend we took it to a wedding in Medora, North Dakota. Total trip mileage was about 1150 miles averaging 8 mpg and 63 mph bucking those winds. We travelled in comfort with a stove, oven, fridge, TV, PS2, seX-Box 360, surround sound, a couch, etc. and I still could have had 10,000 lbs more payload and god knows what towing. Can you really beat that?

I haven't had any problems with getting parts for my 6.6 really, but I might someday. As of right now I just plain haven't had to replace anything. I will take reliability over parts availability any day.

If you do decide to take the bus route there are some great resources out there. Check out www.skoolie.net or www.skoolie.net/forum if you want some good information. Be forewarned though. It isn't like pirate. People over there are actually friendly and newbs get more attention than a fat choir boy at a NAMBLA convention.

Thanks for all the info.

The things that I have decided I MUST have:

-2spd rear axle (and therefore manual tranny), I can't afford any of the new trucks with the 7-9+ speed trannys, and the low gearing the 2spd offers is a must for what I do.

-Easy/Cheap to work on and find parts for, i.e. at NAPA etc.

-Probably need a big block, like I said I've been hauling with a small block truck and its slow going.

With those criteria in mind, it basically leaves me with looking for a C60 or F600/700. The IH stuff scares me a little because the closest dealer is about 120mi away, not good for getting parts.

Has anyone here pulled any decent size pintle trailers with these old gas trucks? What were the GCWR or MGTW ratings on these old trucks? I know even some of the new diesel pickups would top a hill with a load faster, but all I care about is getting the job done safely and reliably.

Has anyone here pulled any decent size pintle trailers with these old gas trucks? What were the GCWR or MGTW ratings on these old trucks? I know even some of the new diesel pickups would top a hill with a load faster, but all I care about is getting the job done safely and reliably.

I used to own a 69 C60 with 427 and 4 speed. pulled a ford 555 backhoe on a 26' heavy equipment. It was a dog. It was pretty worn out and old when I got it.

Thanks for all the info.

The things that I have decided I MUST have:

-2spd rear axle (and therefore manual tranny), I can't afford any of the new trucks with the 7-9+ speed trannys, and the low gearing the 2spd offers is a must for what I do.



A two speed rear end does not necessarily mean you need a manual tranny. Allison has a section right in the owner/operators manual about shifting a two speed rear end with their transmission. Of course I think that is going to be a rare option, but it is out there.

I used to drive a dump with an Allison and a 2sp. rear axle. You took off in the low side and split it in the top gear. I drive 4x2 and 5x2's like that most of the time. The 366 Chevy is a dog. The 427 uses about the same fuel and has about twice the power. On the Ford side the 370 isn't bad, but the 429 is alot better.

The 429 or 460 are going to be a lot easier to get parts for than the 370. IIRC is uses some different parts from the other 385 series big blocks and never saw the extensive use that the 366 did making parts harder to find...but all this is coming from a guy with a 6.6 Ford-New Holland diesel that is supposed to be impossible to find parts for.

370's are easy to find parts for. They are a 429 with a smaller bore, same crank. I have seen alot of 370's in busses, grain haulers, line trucks, asphalt tack trucks, etc. I don't know what the differences are, but I have a 6.6 New Holland in a TW-20 Ford tractor. At least that's what the New Holland Dealer lists it as......