OK I finally got there.

Heres a pic of a stock radius arm with single shell bushes (ie only one crush tube and an outer shell with no intermediate shell)

Sam

And now heres me flexin them

Sam

See how in the last pic that the rubber limits the travel of the bushes and if the bushes are forced into more travel (by long travel shocks or soft springs) the bush will very quickly destroy itself. The compressed rubber will almost extrude out the sides and cut itself and the stretched rubber will de laminate from the crush tube and shell and become loose. This leads to the crush tube having free play in the rubber and makes the rig drive like crap on the h/way.

And this is how Im flexin them with my huge mass (210lb)

My feet are just off the ground at this point

:flipoff2:

Sam

I like the CAD drawings in the background the best! :)

Way

Now to drill the holes. Put the arm on the ground so that you can stand on it and use a high speed hand drill (like 3000rpm). Mark the arms like this above and below the crushtube (I marked on the steel radius arm with chalk) at right angles to the line joining the two mounting holes.

Sam,

I was actually thinking that when you said 'holes' you meant like a hole you could actually see. Something like 1/4 or 3/8ths, not those teeny little things.

Do you really think the small holes make that much difference??? I can't see where the absence of the rubber would make that much difference. Again, I haven't tried this so I'm just talking out my rear :eek: but it seems like this is a case where that small of a change would result in the massive increase in front articulation we saw from the pics.

You sure he hasn't got something else up his sleeve????

I want to see/hear what difference larger diameter holes would make (course there is that thing about the law of diminishing returns....).

Michael

Originally posted by Way
I like the CAD drawings in the background the best! :)

Way

Ha!!!!!! Everyone always looks in the back ground. I luv it :D When I was taking pics I was thinking of putting some more interesting in the back ground. But I didnt.

Sam

Start with a 1/4 in drill and drill slowly with the hand drill running flat out. Try to drill straight although this doesent really matter. Once the drill cuts all the way through the rubber keep the drill running flat out untill smoke starts to come out of the hole and the bit runns freely. Do this every time as you step up in sizes as it will melt the ruber (cause of the high speed) and seal the hole.

This pic is after the 1/4 bit is done.

Originally posted by Serious One
Sam,

I was actually thinking that when you said 'holes' you meant like a hole you could actually see. Something like 1/4 or 3/8ths, not those teeny little things.

Do you really think the small holes make that much difference??? I can't see where the absence of the rubber would make that much difference. Again, I haven't tried this so I'm just talking out my rear :eek: but it seems like this is a case where that small of a change would result in the massive increase in front articulation we saw from the pics.

You sure he hasn't got something else up his sleeve????

I want to see/hear what difference larger diameter holes would make (course there is that thing about the law of diminishing returns....).

Michael

Jeeeze - let a man finish. Im only just getting started.

:flipoff2: :D

Sam

Then I stepped up to a 13/32 drill cause this was the biggest size I could fit in my piss ant hand drill. Same again drill at max revs and move it in slowley and then move it in and out as the smoke comes out of the hole the the drill runs freely (the rubber spewing out of the hole is HOT!!!) I would then do the same with 1/2in drill bit but this wouldnt fit in my drill so I just wobbled the 13/32 bit around a bit and smoked it up.

:smokin:

Oh yea that reminds me you should wear safty glasses as well

:smokin:

Man, it makes me wonder what it's like if more than 3 or 4 of us ever get together in person.

No, wait, I've been to a couple of those events!

Ok, I'll be patient and start my own new thread, but you have to promise to read it and reply! :flipoff2:

Michael

Heres a blurly close up of one of the bushes. :D You can sort of see that the hole goes from the crush tube to the outer shell.

And finally hares a pic of me flexin the holey bushes. Just with my weight you can see that the bush flexes more cause the rubber doesent get in the way on the compression side so (supprisingly) although the rubber looks likes a mess it doenent cut itself. Also on the tension side the hole allows the rubber to stretch without pulling free from the crush tube or the outer shell. So in this way with heavy wheeling the bushes stay intact and the rig will still drive straight on the h/way where as without the holes the bushes destroy themselves very quickly and the bonus is you get lots more front travel.

So that's it eh?

Hmmmm....I have to admit the front suspension on the Serious One is a tad stiffer than I'd like it to be.

I have some worn out springs from a stock '88 Range Rover that I was thinking of throwing in the front. Maybe I'll do the Holy Bushes trick and see how she does.

What have I got to lose right? A couple of bushes?

Anything else I need to know? (note to self: toss piss ant hand drill)

Michael

PS What about hard panic braking? The location of the holes vertically won't make the axle do weird things when it wants to move laterally during a panic stop correct? I like this idea a lot and am giving it the 'let's really think about doing this soon' treatment.

So thats it. The downside is to doing this mod is that you will get more body roll (of course) and also the front axle is no longer located rotationally as well as before. So now the axle can rotate forwards and backwards more under power and braking loads but I must say that this is totally unnoticable both on and off road. Also we thought there could be problems with the front tramping under throttle in loose conditions (like a rear soft leaf axle wrapping or tramping) but again this hasent happened. I dont know how this would go in the rear of a disco II but it it was me I would try it cause its cheap and easy to do and I think that it would work well anyway.

The next step with these bushes is to cast the holes in the rubber as the buhses are made. This is what we are currently doing (although this is a slow process) we are also playing with the shape and size of the hole (a more oblong hole looks the go) and also with the hardness of the rubber compound (hardes rubber also looks the go as the actual stiffness of the rubber doesent make any difference to the total amount of travel the bushes can attain) and we think that I stiffer rubber compoud will drive better on the road.

A production version will eventually come but will be some time off.

Sam

Heres a pic of the origional Rangie with the bushes in it and 10.5in travel shocks

Originally posted by Serious One
So that's it eh?

Hmmmm....I have to admit the front suspension on the Serious One is a tad stiffer than I'd like it to be.

I have some worn out springs from a stock '88 Range Rover that I was thinking of throwing in the front. Maybe I'll do the Holy Bushes trick and see how she does.

What have I got to lose right? A couple of bushes?

Anything else I need to know? (note to self: toss piss ant hand drill)

Michael

PS What about hard panic braking? The location of the holes vertically won't make the axle do weird things when it wants to move laterally during a panic stop correct? I like this idea a lot and am giving it the 'let's really think about doing this soon' treatment.

Panic braking is absolutely no different which supprised us. The off road difference is unbelieveable it really frees up the front end. The bushes will allow full use of 10.5in travel shocks although to get this much you need to use a thin walled centre crush tube (have a look in he pics and I think this would be thinner that stock)

One thing to note. Do not do this in a slow speed pedistal (sp) drill. My buisness partner tried this and when he put the 1/2 drill through it grabbed and the drill walked around the inside of the crush tube and totally stuffed it. He recons it did about 4 laps before he got the drill out. Bloody funny as hell. Had to drive 40min to get another bush.

Best way is to stand on the arm and move down slowely with very high speed and almost melt the drill through.

You should do it and report the changes. It would be interesting. And like you say its only a couple of bushes (four in fact you gotta do them all).

Sam

WOW!

Cheap Bastard 3 link!

I like the way you think Sam. I am going to go drill out the bushings in the wife's disco tomorrow and see how it goes.

Ron :smokin:

Would hesting a 3/8" piece of steel rod cherry red and melting a hole thru the bushings work easier?

That does work but its not all that easy to do - we tried that and found that drilling them is a lot easier. Drilling them makes a lot less smoke and is a lot faster and if you spin the drill up really fast (like 2000-3000rpm) it gives the same sealed finish as a hot iron.

Sam

Hey Ron,

When you do it call me. I'm going to try to do it on the Serious One w/out removing the arms from the bocy, just the axle end.

I'm going to try to do it today (it's 9:30am PST now).

I think that it might work, and hopefully be a tad quicker (course 2 bolts aren't that big of a deal once you get the first ones off right?)

cell: 503-329-6800

Later,

Michael

Michael - Ron,

When you get yours done let me know how the body roll and sudden stop gets affected.

Sam,

Those pictures are greatly appreciated. I think this will be just the ticket for the grocery getter. I am just concerned about the roll and such, as the wife drives the rig a lot around town and such, so I don't want it getting too sloppy.

Great idea btw. Do you think that smaller dia. holes will get some flex but no throw the stability out the window? Have you tried different dia. holes on the rig? Maybe I missed that in the previous discussions but I don't think so.

j

Originally posted by ciocc77
Michael - Ron,

When you get yours done let me know how the body roll and sudden stop gets affected.

Sam,

Those pictures are greatly appreciated. I think this will be just the ticket for the grocery getter. I am just concerned about the roll and such, as the wife drives the rig a lot around town and such, so I don't want it getting too sloppy.

Great idea btw. Do you think that smaller dia. holes will get some flex but no throw the stability out the window? Have you tried different dia. holes on the rig? Maybe I missed that in the previous discussions but I don't think so.

j

Yes we have tried smaler holes and yes they do the same thing but to a lesser degree. What we found though is that in a rig where the bushes limit the articulation a standard bush or a bush with small holes will flog out very quickly. This is bacause as the bush compresses the bush will cut itself and on the stretching side it then pulls itself apart and it doesent take long for the crush tube to become loose ans the rig wont drive straight on the h/way and under braking loads. With the big holes where the crush tube can move all to way to the outer shell the bush wont cut itself and it wont tear and the bush last a lot longer (and we guess it the holes were cast they would last longer still.

If the holes are small and the shocks/springs limit articulation (and not the bushes) I would think that small holes would work fine.

In the couple of rigs that have had this done if you went for a drive in them on the road you wouldnt know that they had holey bushes in them. They just drive normal. Now the thing is if you did it to your rig then you are definately going to notice more body roll. Now how much who knows.

Looks like a couple of people are going to try to do the mod. I think it will be good to get some feedback from them first.

Sam

I'm not sure if it would work as well here but we've found that rubber is much more machinable if it's frozen. We had to machine a V groove in some rubber discs on the lathe, it was really nasty. One of the guys froze a disc, pulled it out, and immeadiately made the cut, worked great.
Mike
:usa:

Sam -

Man, THANKS for all the detail.. i've been planning on trying this mod as I need to change my bushings now on my d1, but i needed a better understanding of how large the holes were and how you guys felt about braking at speed, etc., etc..

i like the idea about a stiffer bushing helping with highway driving as long as the holes are large enough to still allow the travel without chewing up the compound - i have a set of stock bushings i was saving to try, but i think i'll leave 'em on the shelf and try a harder set first off... i've enough body roll now to call for Dramamine on occasion (grin), so we'll see how much of an increase i feel with this change. LOL

Ron - let us know how the wife's disco feels after going under the drill!

/mike

Sam, thanks so much for taking the time to post all of that info. Tomorrow is Father's Day so iI get garage time!:D

Mike, I am planning on drilling mine on Sunday and I am also going to just remove the axle bolts. I'll post Monday and let you guys know how it went. Man, I can't wait to get this done and get it on the trails. Lockers are going in soon as well, just have to find the time. This board is incredible. Awesome source of info!!!

Hey Strange if you want to take it to the next step, Pour your own Poly! I've done some research on DIY poly bushings.

Scout motor mounts are 80.00 ea and I was going to start building them. There is a company called Synair and there product Duothane is two component polyurethane casting system perfect for building poly bushings at home.



http://www.synair.com/products/duothane/

Sam - I am impressed, astounded... yadda yadda....

Only a true bodger would think of this - let alone actually do it and then recommend it :beer: :beer: :beer: to you my son...

Cheap - $0
Potentially dangerous? maybe not - but there is an element of doubt...
Warrantable? - I doubt it.
Results - impressive
Am I gonna do it - you bet.

Congratulations - I think you just made the Bodge Hall of Fame.:D

dick
bodgerover

OK, I'M TYPING IN CAPS BECAUSE THIS IS THE BEST F-ING MOD YOU CAN DO TO YOUR TRUCK FOR LESS THAN 500 BUCKS!!!!

Seriously though, I just got home from spending a day at the shop doing the Holey-Bush mod.

I'll say quickly that the travel is impressive, way impressive. A couple of things to consider though...

Spring rate will DEFINITELY contribute or lessen body roll. I changed both the springs AND drilled the holes at the same time, and am convinced that if I only did the holes, the articulation at slow speeds would be dramatically increased, but the body roll while driving would be minimized.

Additionally, I had the bushes that have the third central metal sleeve. I didn't remember this until I had the radius arm off of the truck (don't try to do it unless you remove the entire arm, TRUST ME), and said screw it, I'm going to do it anyway.

I had to grind down the metal sleeve to be flush with the rubber so the drill wouldn't try to wobble into the outer or inner ring (learned that the hard way after the first attempt).

I am curious about the difference, or lack thereof, between using the bushing with and without the middle metal sleeve. Sam? Thoughts???

The springs I removed were '95 Disco rears, and I replaced them with '87 RR rears. Way softer and IMO, added to the body roll.

In my case, with the tremendous torque of the 283, the initial throttle blips that I gave it caused the truck to jump and hop and the front end to twist wildly. It was pretty cool honestly and it is completely possible to eggagerate the twisting and/or control it through judicious use of the throttle.

I did some serious panic stops, nothing abnormal except a bit of excessive nose dive due to the softer springs (I really should have done this mod one at a time). Braked straight as an arrow. I also did some panic stops while steering and while the body roll was noticable, at no time did I feel out of control, and could steer out of the intentional swerving at all times.

After my initial braking and steering tests I headed straight for the nearest gravel pile to check out the additional suppleness. It was there and very noticable immidiately. I then headed for the nearest 4-foot log I could find. Got up on it and played with the travel. MUCH BETTER than before.

Was having so much fun I went and found a huge stack of logs and played around on it for about an hour trying to get a tire off the ground. I could not, and believe me I tried hard. Granted, the 80 inch wheelbase excells at stuff like this, and I eventually did get high centered on the central skid plate, but man oh man what a difference.

I think that for a play rig, rockcrawler, whatever, this mod is a DEFINITE MUST.

On a grocery getter, MAYBE.

On my wife's truck, NO. (not until she learns to drive the 80 inch and understands what the handling differences are. She's still a relative newbie despite all of the weird LR's we have)

I do have to admit I wonder about the longevity of the bushing, weather or not the central metal sleeve will cut the rubber, or will there be additional problems? Can the sleeve 'delaminate' or seperate from the rubber easier? Should I really be doing this with a bushing that doesn't have the third middle sleeve? Smaller holes maybe for a mild-offroader/wife's car? Towing heavy loads AND doing panic braking?

Lots of unanswered questions, but those are kind of going off the deep end. If I considered it unsafe I'd be putting new bushes back in no questions asked.

As it is I want to go out and wheel HARD very SOON so see how they hold up.

This is definitely the cheap bastard answer to front supple suspension. DEFINITELY.

Ok, now get out there and drill some holes people!!!!!

:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Michael

Originally posted by Bodgerover
Sam - I am impressed, astounded... yadda yadda....

Only a true bodger would think of this - let alone actually do it and then recommend it :beer: :beer: :beer: to you my son...

Cheap - $0
Potentially dangerous? maybe not - but there is an element of doubt...
Warrantable? - I doubt it.
Results - impressive
Am I gonna do it - you bet.

Congratulations - I think you just made the Bodge Hall of Fame.:D

dick
bodgerover

Guys - you do know what this means don't you? There are some unforeseen consequences of this modification that may have all sorts of undesirable effects: For example, I'm sure Bodgerover is going to "borrow" my drill and when he eventually returns it, it will be all covered in bits of melted radius arm bushing :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

ct

What island and city are you kiwis from?:D

I have some very good friends in Dunedin.

Originally posted by Serious One
OK, I'M TYPING IN CAPS BECAUSE THIS IS THE BEST F-ING MOD YOU CAN DO TO YOUR TRUCK FOR LESS THAN 500 BUCKS!!!!

Seriously though, I just got home from spending a day at the shop doing the Holey-Bush mod.

I'll say quickly that the travel is impressive, way impressive. A couple of things to consider though...

Spring rate will DEFINITELY contribute or lessen body roll. I changed both the springs AND drilled the holes at the same time, and am convinced that if I only did the holes, the articulation at slow speeds would be dramatically increased, but the body roll while driving would be minimized.

Additionally, I had the bushes that have the third central metal sleeve. I didn't remember this until I had the radius arm off of the truck (don't try to do it unless you remove the entire arm, TRUST ME), and said screw it, I'm going to do it anyway.

I had to grind down the metal sleeve to be flush with the rubber so the drill wouldn't try to wobble into the outer or inner ring (learned that the hard way after the first attempt).

I am curious about the difference, or lack thereof, between using the bushing with and without the middle metal sleeve. Sam? Thoughts???

The springs I removed were '95 Disco rears, and I replaced them with '87 RR rears. Way softer and IMO, added to the body roll.

In my case, with the tremendous torque of the 283, the initial throttle blips that I gave it caused the truck to jump and hop and the front end to twist wildly. It was pretty cool honestly and it is completely possible to eggagerate the twisting and/or control it through judicious use of the throttle.

I did some serious panic stops, nothing abnormal except a bit of excessive nose dive due to the softer springs (I really should have done this mod one at a time). Braked straight as an arrow. I also did some panic stops while steering and while the body roll was noticable, at no time did I feel out of control, and could steer out of the intentional swerving at all times.

After my initial braking and steering tests I headed straight for the nearest gravel pile to check out the additional suppleness. It was there and very noticable immidiately. I then headed for the nearest 4-foot log I could find. Got up on it and played with the travel. MUCH BETTER than before.

Was having so much fun I went and found a huge stack of logs and played around on it for about an hour trying to get a tire off the ground. I could not, and believe me I tried hard. Granted, the 80 inch wheelbase excells at stuff like this, and I eventually did get high centered on the central skid plate, but man oh man what a difference.

I think that for a play rig, rockcrawler, whatever, this mod is a DEFINITE MUST.

On a grocery getter, MAYBE.

On my wife's truck, NO. (not until she learns to drive the 80 inch and understands what the handling differences are. She's still a relative newbie despite all of the weird LR's we have)

I do have to admit I wonder about the longevity of the bushing, weather or not the central metal sleeve will cut the rubber, or will there be additional problems? Can the sleeve 'delaminate' or seperate from the rubber easier? Should I really be doing this with a bushing that doesn't have the third middle sleeve? Smaller holes maybe for a mild-offroader/wife's car? Towing heavy loads AND doing panic braking?

Lots of unanswered questions, but those are kind of going off the deep end. If I considered it unsafe I'd be putting new bushes back in no questions asked.

As it is I want to go out and wheel HARD very SOON so see how they hold up.

This is definitely the cheap bastard answer to front supple suspension. DEFINITELY.

Ok, now get out there and drill some holes people!!!!!

:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Michael

Good to see :D And great to here some good results.

I actually thought that most you guys would have the double shell bushes and not the single shell ones like I got. I think the double shell bushes were factory on all the late model stuff (like from 90 onwards) Going to single shell bushes should make a heap of difference. The double shell bushes really dont flex any where near as much as the single shell ones (in stock form).

Where did you drill the holes in your double shell bushes????? did you only drill between the crush tube and firct shell or all over the place??

But again good to here that it did something and I would guess there is still a lot of front end travel that you can get yet. You should flex it up and measure the difference in extended shock lengths. If its around 10in that about as much as the grey rangie has got.

Sam

CT - I like the fact that its a foregone conclusion that I will use your drill :flipoff2:

Don't worry there will be a :beer: in it for you - especially if you help me unbolt the radius arms....

Oh yeah I will need to borrow the jack, jack stands, and big socket too... :D

Old Scout - CT and I are in Auckland - not too far away but as far away as you can get and still be in NZ.

Dick
Bodgerover

Originally posted by Old Scout
Hey Strange if you want to take it to the next step, Pour your own Poly! I've done some research on DIY poly bushings.

Scout motor mounts are 80.00 ea and I was going to start building them. There is a company called Synair and there product Duothane is two component polyurethane casting system perfect for building poly bushings at home.



http://www.synair.com/products/duothane/

Ive thought about poly but have never tried. I think that rubber will work better cause we are removing all the rubber from between the crush tube and shell and the rubber stay glued to both pieces.

With poly the steel isnt bonded to the poly is it????

If it isnt I think the crush tube really move around all over the place and wouldnt return to centre like the rubber does. Although if in a poly bush you just drilled smaller holes it might work well although you wouldnt get as much travel as the rubber cause with the rubber the crush tube can move untill it hits the outer shell.

Sam

Good to hear Mike.

I crawled under the Poor disco this evening after fitting the P/U cab to the series (which has a nice stress crack in it immediatly above my head!)

Anyway it too has the dumb dual shell bushings. Did you drill out the second metal thing? I was thinking two smaller holes? Or maybe just bite the bullet and get new single shell bushings.

Let me know, Alyssa has signed on for the mod I just have to do it.

Ron

First things first.

In order to drill a hole through the bushing that has the third sleeve (we need to get a standardized name for it, '3-sleeve' maybe???), what I did was use a die grinder to remove the sleeve where i wanted to drill the hole. It actually worked well, because the bit wanted to center where the cut was made in the center sleeve. Be careful as you get close to coming through the other side, when the bit wants to grab, it will twist the center sleeve and deform it slightly. I don't think that will matter in the long run, but who knows. I started out with the 1/2 inch drill bit due to the center sleeve.

I also used as the place to drill the holes, an imaginary center line perpendicular to level ground. Yes, the axle will rotate as it articulates, but the centerline perpendicular to level ground places the holes in a good 'average' position that will work with both up travel and down equally well. I don't remember if Sam covered that.

Ok, here's some more feedback.

We built a 'ramp' out of a trailer ramp and some tires to do some controlled flexing tests. I shot a TON of pictures illustrating what I'm going to talk about. I'll send 'em to Sam since this is his baby we're messing with.

First of all, I do not believe that the center sleeve of the 3-sleeve bushing will decrease articulation. In fact, the reason the articulation will end at all is the fact that the radius arm, when twisted, actually binds up against the bracket that is holding it in place. The arm wants to bind against the ears on the left and right side, and also the piece that is above the rounded end. On the one side you have the panhard bracket , and the other end is just a flat plate.

You might get to that 'max point' smoother with the old style 2-sleeve bushing, but I believe that in the end the axle forces the bushing as effectively.

I do wonder however, about the cutting that Sam mentioned. I think that the center sleeve on the 3-sleeve type might want to cut the rubber when being articulated. Additionally, there are 2 more points for the rubber to delaminate from. I think that ultimately the 2-sleeve type would be preferable, but in all reality having the 3-sleeve type shouldn't keep you from doing the mod. If fitted with the 3-sleeve type bushing wear should be monitored perhaps more closely than you might with the 2-sleeve.

I have run OME bushings that completely delaminated, did towing with them, heavy braking, off-roading, etc...and can say that even if the drilled bushings were to completely fail, you're not going to die running them. I thought of the safety factor with bushings that failed, and remembered my bad experiences with the castor corrected bushings.

The good news is that the radius arm will reach the metal contact, or 'bind' point equally on both bushes, so there is no real frustration I guess trying to figure out why or how to solve it. It would require a MAJOR rework of the radius arm mounting bracket and also the pahnard rod bracket to move the ears outward in order to eliminate the binding. Plus, you run the question of how to effectively center the arm within the potentially wider bracket.

Short of doing a complete re-work of the entire front suspension, I believe that the bushing mod is about as far as we can go. Sure springs help, and perhaps tall supple springs would give a few more RTI points, but you're ultimately going to bind the arm against the bracket.

So, in conclusion, I'm happy with what it does, satisfied that it wasn't too expensive, and confident that I haven't affected the safety or integrity of the suspension geometry.

Michael

Sam, you ready for some pics???

Great stuff, shoot them over.

sam@haultech.com

Im having difficulty understanding where your arms are binding - have you got pics of it (you know thousand words and all). On the grey Rangie I think the radius arms dont hit anywhere but I have never really looked that closely.

Sam

OK. Yesterday was Father's day so once we got back into town it was off to the garage. After a few hours of hard labor, all of my bushings are now drilled. Haven't taken them off-road yet, but the on-road manners have not changed at all as far as I can tell.

Remember, I'm running RTE 3" springs along with my own 1" spacers up front and RTE 3" springs in the rear along with EE retainers (which required DSI lower spring perches on my DSII, netting an additioanl .75" of lift). So I have 4.5" up front and 3.75" in the rear with Rancho 9000's.

I can honestly say that streetability has not changed on my rig. Braking, cornering, etc all seems the same. Now if I could just go try them somewhere off-road.:D

When I do, I'll post the results. Judging from Sam's picts and Mike's experiences, I can't wait to see what it will do.

Thanks again, Sam.:beer: :beer: :beer:

Forgot to mention that I have the 2-sleeve bushings ('00 DSII).

Originally posted by Greg Davis
.

I can honestly say that streetability has not changed on my rig. Braking, cornering, etc all seems the same. Now if I could just go try them somewhere off-road.:D

When I do, I'll post the results. Judging from Sam's picts and Mike's experiences, I can't wait to see what it will do.

Thanks again, Sam.:beer: :beer: :beer:

Greg,

Are you still running Sway bars? I think that would definitely help the drilled bushes from "pre-loading" in normal driving. I don't have them, (89) hence my concern for the handling differences.

I am beginning to think that drilling, plus rigging some late model or thicker bars (with disconnects) would eliviate my worries.

j

J, no sways either. Took them off after I installed the RTE springs.

Also, I drilled my bushes while the arms were still attached to the frame. I almost gave myself a hernia :eek:

trying to break the bolts loose holding the arm to the frame, so I finally said "Fawk It" and climbed under my rig with drill in hand. Awkward, but not impossible.

Greg, the Series II comes as a 2 sleeve bushing standard. As its larger in dia. you may have put a bigger hole through? I have been using the 2 sleeve bushings always in my disco as well and they do give more flex as the middle sleeve does take up "give" space. I havent drilled any holes as I have flexed and got under the truck and the bushings were maxed out(poor rubber). Mine do need replacing now as that load does shorten the life of a 2 sleeve bushing. It will be interesting to see if the drilling does shorten the life of the bushing or the drilling allows the give of the rubber better without breaking the bond to the sleeves.

My bushings look just like Sam's do, so therefore I drilled 1/2" holes. That's still a pretty big hole. I'll take some flex shots soon to show.

Heres pics of the Serious One.

And close ups of the radius arms.

And from the front.

Michael,

Great machine. I can see where the arm binds on the bracket. I would guess the silver rangie would do the exact same thing cause the setup is identical. I will flex it up again today and take some more pics.

With the amount of droop you are getting out of the front do you know whats limiting it - radius arms or shocks.

You are getting some good stuff there any more and you will have to start cutting :flipoff2:

Sam

Thanks Sam,

You know, I think I have more shock left, maybe 2-3 inches, and it looks like I have a little bit of spring left too. I was lifting a rear tire when those shots were taken, but not much. I probably could have climed the ramp more, but ramp integrity was a problem.

It also looks like I have a little bit of space left before the arm actually does hit the axle bracket, so betwen the three things, I probably have a wee bit more travel to go.

So, the answer is I don't know yet. I don't think I have reached the max flex in those pics. I would say that the radius arm rubbing the axle would happen before the shock ran out.

Those are 9012's BTW.

The whole idea on the front wings was to NOT do any cutting! :flipoff2:

I really do want a 'sleeper' with this thing. We did have to concede to trimming out the rear, but not that much.

Later,

Michael

PS I'm going to ramp it on a 'real' ramp Thurs. night. We'll see how it does.

Damn Mikie that's one SWEET ride my friend! Yea, I've seen pic's of it before, but for some reason, I like those the best. I can't wait to see it in person.

BTW, are those the Corbeau seats you and Steven are shleping? What are they excactly. I like.

--D

Nice garage man - whats your other car - a 747??:D


bodgerover

BodgeRover,

Nope, my other car is a 146! :flipoff2:

The Corbeau's are really really nice once you get in them. Getting into them you will have a hard time *not* racking either your thigh, your groin, or on the rude occasion, both.

BUT, once you are in, you're IN. They even recline, and I have the inflatable lumbar on the drivers' side. Very comfy. I can drive 12 hours in them and not feel fatigued.

The one's I have in the Serious One are these:

http://corbeau.com/brochure/TRS.html

The one's I am considering putting in the 146 are these:

http://corbeau.com/brochure/gts2.html

I want to put a RR or Disco rear seat into the 146 (at first I called it the 130, then we started calling it the 145 because that's what we *thought* the wheelbase would be, then my son and I measured it and found that right now it's 146. Fully assembled it might end up being 147....who knows).

Anyone got a rear seat for sale???

Thanks D. We'll have to swap ride's for an hour or two!

Michael

We flexed up the silver RR again and I took some more pictures. And yes, the radius arms do hit the axle brackets as Michael has said. But it almost looks to me that the inner crush tube is hitting the outer shell at this point also.

As it is flex up here I measured the distance between upper and lower spring perches on the outside edge (the very edge closest to the wheel) and got 17.3in on the extended side and 6.5in on the compressed side. So measuring this way I get 10.8in of articulation which I feel is a lot for any rig let alone one thats running stock radius arms.

Can anyone else do the same measurments for a comparison?? How about any of the three link guys???

Heres the first pic.

Sam

and heres the other angle

Close up of the bushes where they hit the brackets this is the front bush on the compressed side. But also see how far the mount bolt is missalinged in the radius arm.

And this is the rear bush on the extended side doing the same thing. You can just see this bush starting to delaminate as well. We worked it out and these bushes have been in this rig for about 18 months and Charles has just got back from a 2 week trip that saw a lot of corrogated dirt roads and big potholes and they are fried now. They were a bit cut and delaminating before he left but now they are totally stuffed and he can really notice it wandering under brakes.

The guy we got making the bushes is starting to make progress and we should have some production versions in Charles rig next week so it will be interesting how these go.

Heres a pic of one he picked up today. The ones we are getting next week have got all the sharp corners removed so that the hole is a nice round slot. We are going to trial these and then maybe remove some more material (by hand) to extend the slot towards the centre crush tube. We will do this if we dont get as much travel out of these bushes or if the crush tube cuts the remaining rubber left around it. I think that if we can get a shape that doesent delaminate or cut itself we should produce a bush that will last a long time. We are also going to trial them with an 80 duro rubber where as everything we have done so far has been with 60 duro.

Sam

good work sam. how do you think that the holes would work drilled in a blue (soft) poly bushing?

Originally posted by Strange Rover
We flexed up the silver RR again and I took some more pictures. And yes, the radius arms do hit the axle brackets as Michael has said. But it almost looks to me that the inner crush tube is hitting the outer shell at this point also.

As it is flex up here I measured the distance between upper and lower spring perches on the outside edge (the very edge closest to the wheel) and got 17.3in on the extended side and 6.5in on the compressed side. So measuring this way I get 10.8in of articulation which I feel is a lot for any rig let alone one thats running stock radius arms.

Can anyone else do the same measurments for a comparison?? How about any of the three link guys???

Heres the first pic.

Sam

Sam,

I can get mine measured but not until the weekend.

j

I can measure mine, but only in terms of relative shock travel.

My suspension geometry isn't 'quite' stock coiler.

Later,

Michael

Originally posted by 9-Volt
good work sam. how do you think that the holes would work drilled in a blue (soft) poly bushing?

Could work but it think that the poly would have to be glued to the crush tube and outer shell for it to work cause if it wasnt the pieces would move around all over the place.

I do think that rubber is the go. But in saying so this is all new stuff and solid poly with smaller holes (or different shaped) may work.

Sam

Here's Cooper driving the Serious One over the log pile we were playing on the other day.

After some pretty hard playing, going back and forth over the log pile at least 20 times the bushings feel the same as when they did just after we put them on.

Probably not enough time, but at least the 3-sleeve bushings aren't disintegrating all that easily.

I'm going to ramp it tomorrow night. Hopefully someone there will have a tape measure and know how to calculate a real RTI score.

Watch out! Here comes a 'ramp-champ'!!!! :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

that looks like some good flex mike!

and i was thinking, couldnt you also perform this mod on the frame end of the trailing arm bushings?

the holes would be drilled in from the side of the bushing, all around the outside diameter, maybe every 3/4 of an inch or so. so that if you could look at just the holes from the front, it would look like lines originating from a central point in the center of the center hole in the bushing.

i think that this would give a good amount of space for the rubber to collapse into. worth a shot i think!

Hey 9-volt,

Yeah, I guess there are still several things you can do, but honestly I think I am going to stop with this mod.

I have the longer trailing arms, my rear bushings are set at the correct angle, and are up along the frame rails, etc...

What you might not be able to see are the check straps that I have on each side of the frame. At the extention you see, the check straps are taught.

The Serious One now has almost identical articulation characteristics both front and back (although, still just a little less in the front end due to the design differences). I think I'm going to live with the present setup for a LOONG time.

What I do plan to change is the high range gearset in the T-case, possibly 4:10's or 4:7's, and get Coopers underdrive/overdrive installed.

I want a lower first and a taller 4th, so that is the next line of modification I'm going to pursue with this truck.

Oh yeah, and I have to wire the license plate light too!

OK, I thought that I should put some of the holey bushes in my hybrid and see what difference they make over the hinged radius arm. First pic is of the hinged arm and the holey arm in case anyone hasnt seen a hinged arm. The old hinged arm worked well gave heaps of travel but the torque reaction was a PITA esp since I had the arm on the LHS so the arm tilted my rig in the same direction as the tailshaft torque.

Sam

Heres the first flexin pic.

hey sam have i ever told you that every time i see your rig i get wood? lol nice work :flipoff2:

i still think you should paint it tan and get a soft top for it though :D

And from the other angle. The front has less travel and is slightly stiffer through its range (and of course goes real stiff when the bushes buttom out). The front shocks have 14in travel so its the bushes that are limiting the travel here. Measured at the shocks I have about 10in travel here and this is about as far as it wants to go although if I push on the side of the rig it moves about another inch. With the hinged arm I would get about 12in of front travel at the same position and could also push the rig to get another 1-1.5in. So now with the stiffer front setup the front suspension drives the rear a bit harder so thge rear will flex more.

But as you can see this is still a shiat load if front travel. And it doesent look out of place compared to the rear.

Originally posted by 9-Volt
hey sam have i ever told you that every time i see your rig i get wood? lol nice work :flipoff2:

i still think you should paint it tan and get a soft top for it though :D

Ha - so do I. I sort of like the ute cab, I think its going to stay for a while.

Sam

btw, nice cage sam!!!

and looking at your rig, i think that if you fabbed up a removable winch, that you could hack of the front 10" of frame or so, and pick up a LOT of approach angle.

Driving up forwards - and here you can really notice that the front is too stiff for the rear but its still flexes OK. I could probably go to stiffer springs in the rear (totally captured) and it would work better overall but I will probably just wheel it as is.

Originally posted by 9-Volt
btw, nice cage sam!!!

and looking at your rig, i think that if you fabbed up a removable winch, that you could hack of the front 10" of frame or so, and pick up a LOT of approach angle.

This is true. And the number of times I have hit the frame at the front I really should do just that. The other way to do it is to just cut the grill and move the winch back untill it just clears the front pulley cause I havent got a radiator there at all. The which would be totally behind the grill if I did this. I will do something when I got to the d60/d70 302windsor blah blah.

Sam

Heres the last shot sitting on something more realistic and as you can see the front flexes well.

And I should say that although im running a d44 up front the suspension setup and brackets are all stock and the arms hit the exact same way.

Heres a pic

Ok, so I got onto a real ramp tongiht. Here's what happened.

I got up farther than any of the D90 or RR/Disco guys, which (without trying to sound like an arrogant asshole) wasn't that surprizing. What did surprize me was that I got so far up that I started driving up the ramp with my rear tire. I figured that it was as far as I could go, so I left a mark on the ramp (but forgot to measure it with a tape measure).

Another guy has a modified RR/Series that is similar in construction to Strange Rovers, but w/out the D44 and large tires. He runs saggy RR springs and radius arms with worn out bushings.

He managed to get about 10 inches past my mark, which kind of made sense since his wheelbase is a true 90 inches and I think mine is really close to 81 inches.

Keep in mind that I am still running check straps in the rear.

I didn't get to see his suspension when it was ramped out dang it, so I might have to beg him to ramp it again and see how his bushings are performing w/out the holes.

I think there are a lot of lurkers on this board, because it seemed that the word was out at the meeting, and I didn't tell but a couple of people what I had done previously.

I need to get on a 30 degree ramp I think.

I ramped backwards also, and got out to look at the front suspension. TOTALLY stacked the coil spring, and the bumpstop was just 1/8th inch or so from the axle. When I ramped it up backwards I made sure that I wouldn't drive up the ramp with my front tire.

Maybe the coolest thing about the excerzice was that backwards I only went about an inch farther than ramping forwards.

Ever since that Twist-Off story from the first year which reached the conclusion that a balanced suspension geometry was better than raw RTI scores, that has been the goal with the Serious One. I think I'm really really close with the bushings modification.

So, I think the ramp was pretty close to 20 degrees, and if I stopped where I would potentially start to drive up the ramp, that would mean that I got 80 inches up the ramp right? It would be more accurate to drive up a 30 degree ramp and get the true measurement where I lifted a tire, but for this discussion I figured that stopping where I did would be fine.

Anyone wanna calculate my approximate RTI score?

One more thing I'm noticing with regards to the increase in articulation.

I am starting to think that I might be hindering the front axle on full upward travel due to the narrow offset of my rims.

I am seeing a LOT more shiney metal on my upper spring perch due to the tire rubbing.

I have a set of 15 inch rims with a wider offset that has a set of 31x10.50x15 Super Swampers on beadlocks. I'll put those on tomorrow and play a little with the axle binding.

I am extremely confident that spring stuffage, axle bump-stoppage, and radius arm bindage are eminent.

Time to re-paint the upper spring perch and look for wear marks!

Michael,

If your back tire makes if exactly to the start of the ramp then thats an RTI of 1000. Cause its the distance that you drive up the ramp divided by your wheelbase multiply by 1000.

And yea, lurkers for sure. News travels fast.

Sam

Originally posted by Serious One
One more thing I'm noticing with regards to the increase in articulation.

I am starting to think that I might be hindering the front axle on full upward travel due to the narrow offset of my rims.

I am seeing a LOT more shiney metal on my upper spring perch due to the tire rubbing.

I have a set of 15 inch rims with a wider offset that has a set of 31x10.50x15 Super Swampers on beadlocks. I'll put those on tomorrow and play a little with the axle binding.

I am extremely confident that spring stuffage, axle bump-stoppage, and radius arm bindage are eminent.

Time to re-paint the upper spring perch and look for wear marks!

Jeeze, you would want to watch those front fenders you will take them out for sure.

Sam

Yeah, Ok, so RTI scores can be misleading to accurately asses a vehicles performance off-road, but I still like the ramp for other things.

This is a good link for someone who can realize that the RTI ramp has a few other uses, and he gives a thourough description of the scoring method, and even a few ramp building tips.

http://katy.tx4x4.org/tech/rtirampinfo.htm

I still think I have a couple 'a more RTI points hidden inside the Serious One somewhere!

I read on POR about a Sami who scored 1150. What's the highest score anyone's found?

Well, after work yesterday I went by to pick up some materials for some projects and I noticed a HUGE dirt pile at the rear of the property. After talking with my friend that owns the fab shop and land, he said have at it.

Well, I was still dressed from work (tie, etc):rolleyes: so I couldn't get any good measurements, but I played on the dirtpile and found out a few things.

First, with the holey bushes, the rear stuffs and flexes like never before. Never knew my 285's would go that far into my wheel well. I know now that anything larger will rub like hell in the fender well.

Front still seems rather tight. I didn't back up it, so I can't say for sure, but it appears to be unbalanced front to rear. Could be my front shocks though. It's very close to bottoming the shocks, so my upper mount probably needs to be raised a few inches.

But the worst thing I found out was the fawking batteries in my digital camera were dead.:mad3:

Anyway, I'll try again next week (leaving town today) and hopefully I'll get some shots for you guys so you can see the flex. I'm very excited about this.:D

Originally posted by Serious One

I read on POR about a Sami who scored 1150. What's the highest score anyone's found?

Ben Olsen's Air suspended 'zuki can ramp into the 1300's

This score is from 1999

He occasionally posts on PBB as air suki.

http://bc4x4.com/features/1999/rti/rti2.jpg

I don't know what he'll ramp now.

Incidentally, you can get past 1000 on a 20 degree ramp by offsetting yourself a bit and getting your rear tire to miss the ramp base. This will allow you to continue up, and get better that 1000.

That's pretty funny.

He and I have been talking about my air suspension setup.

I didn't know I was in the presence of greatness!

When I was planning my air suspension, I went to the source, BEN.

Originally posted by Greg Davis
Well, after work yesterday I went by to pick up some materials for some projects and I noticed a HUGE dirt pile at the rear of the property. After talking with my friend that owns the fab shop and land, he said have at it.

Well, I was still dressed from work (tie, etc):rolleyes: so I couldn't get any good measurements, but I played on the dirtpile and found out a few things.

First, with the holey bushes, the rear stuffs and flexes like never before. Never knew my 285's would go that far into my wheel well. I know now that anything larger will rub like hell in the fender well.

Front still seems rather tight. I didn't back up it, so I can't say for sure, but it appears to be unbalanced front to rear. Could be my front shocks though. It's very close to bottoming the shocks, so my upper mount probably needs to be raised a few inches.

But the worst thing I found out was the fawking batteries in my digital camera were dead.:mad3:

Anyway, I'll try again next week (leaving town today) and hopefully I'll get some shots for you guys so you can see the flex. I'm very excited about this.:D

Greg,

By the sounds of it you have drilled holes in all your bushes (front axle and back axle) - good man. No wonder you almost gave yourself a hernia.

Sam

Same,
Had theforklift/bobcat today and I failed on the measurement thing. I got the rear up to about 26", the front had only compressed about 4" due to my stiff a$$ springs and no load. I didn't have anything to drive on to compress the front and cross up the back that would hold the load under the front tire. Sorry.

j

Gentlemen:
In the laboratory industry, we oftentimes must bore holes of a given size in rubber stoppers. Fortunately, we have tools to do this that do a much better job than a drill.

Cork Borers are essentially a piece of stainless tubing the diameter of the desired hole with the end that does the cutting chamfered to form a sharp edge on the circumference (beveld from the outside in). The borer is then driven into the rubber. Using one of these devices, you could make your full size cut with a single pass.

Those of you with lathes can easily make your own, those without, you can chuck a piece of tubing with a piece of dowel inside and run your drill with a file or grinder up against the leading edge of the tubing.

Yes, I'm going to give it a try on my Disco!

Paul:flipoff2:

Sam,

Please, Sam. I am not above begging. When can I buy some slotted bushings! I just got done drive Reggie for the first time since it got cold. Nothing like Halloween at 22deg F. Anyway, my intermediate shell bushings that are drilled are SH!T in the cold. I thought they were noisey in the warm, but my gawd. Since there is very little flex to the rubber, they are clunking like mad.

j

RR,

Happy Haloween eh?

My intermediate shell bushings started clicking too. I noticed it when I was just rocking the S1 back and forth. This was immidiately after I was telling everyone that they didn't click at all.

Serves me right.

Sam, remember who has been begging the longest!!!! :flipoff2:

I can honestly say that these things are actually coming.

Heres the state of play at the moment. Ive got the dies and inserts that make the standard bushings. Ive got the slotted inserts that make the his version of the slotted bushings and I just have to get a set of inserts machined up that will make our slotted bushings (these will coat about $400 to get done on a cnc mill)

The cnc guy has already had a look at the job and can do it.

All I have got to do is work out a shape (shape of the slots) give that to him, he makes the inserts. Take the whole thing back to the bush guy, he makes the slotted bushes. Send them to you guys and we are done.

All I can say is that these things are a lot closer to being made than they were two weeks ago. :D

Sam

have you thought about making several different versions with different shaped slots?

I'm just curious as to what shape the slots might/will be.

Ideas?

How many of these are you going to make ?

Is this a one time deal or are you 'going into business' supplying them ?

If it's a one time thing, I'm jumping up and down and yelling Ooh, Ooh - me too.......

:)

keith
:usa:

yeah, I just wanted to add that I would like to be put on the list as well!

I don't know if they will ever actually make it onto my truck, but put me on the list too.

Once we get the dies made then its easy to make lots of them so you guys will get them for sure.

have you thought about making several different versions with different shaped slots?

I'm just curious as to what shape the slots might/will be.

Ideas?

We have been thinking the exact same thing and we could make the dies so that the slot pieces bolt on so it would be easy to experiment with dirrerent slots. This is more work (and money) so we hope we can just get the right shape the first time. Will probably just make the dies in one piece with a fixed slot shape and if they need to be different then we can machine off the slot shape and then bolt a new shape on (although it still may be easier to just make the whole thing again from scratch). They are going to be cnc milled so making them from scratch isnt a big deal.

Sam

put me on the list too.....

Will Roeder

yeah im interested too sam.

Ever thought of glue-ing in elastomers in the holes you drill (mold in this case). Would be an effective way to add a little bit of progressive compression. Also may prevent tearing??? Just a thought.

Way

in the spirit of jumping up and d0wn...

me! me! me!

:bounce2: :bounce2: :bounce2:

I do like Way's suggestion regarding some sort of way to control the reat of movement within the bushing, definitly something to explore!

I didn't understand if this is open for ordering,
or just a wish list . . .
But, we're the Israeli guys would like a couple of dozens when it will get to supplying . . .

You blokes should look a bit harder

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8508