Now that I have run with the RTE 3 inch lift on the LWB for about a month and had all the tires rebalanced, I'm convinced I'm suffering from the dreaded front driveline vibration.

I didn't want to admit it, but like all suffering alcoholics I have to admit I have a problem before I can conquer it.

Question is, can I just take the existing driveline to my local reputable driveline shop (6-states) and have them install a CV joint? I'm trying to save a $ or two here and there, and was thinking this would be a good place to at least try to be frugal. :flipoff2:

I was hoping that I didn't need to get an entirely new driveline made.

Michael

Convert to a part time LT230.

In the long term this is the most reliable solution. No vibes if it is not spinning.

Ron

I don't think the parts are available to do what you're asking. That's why most people have Spicer CVs and the adapter plates. I guess the CV could be welded to your existing tube but the cost savings wouldn't be much.

How did you know I have a spare LT-230 laying around????

Also, can't you read (because I know you can *TYPE*!!!)??? I said, I was trying to save a buck! :D

Part-time conversion for that truck is not an option. It's a '94 and I don't have the time or energy right now to contemplate a conversion on that thing.

So, what's it gonna be???

Michael

I am obviously illertate (duh)

You need an adaptor plate no matter what you do, unless you go with a disco II driveshaft and that flange. 6 states can make you a driveshaft up no problem. Personally I have avoided CV driveshafts because:

1. They are expensive.
2. No one seems to be able to get one right and keep it right long term. aftermarkets don't balance or the adaptor wallows out or etc etc. and DIIs you can't grease so they go boom if you submerge them alot like I would.
3. I am ok with 2in of lift on my "driver" type rovers and I am lucky that my RR does not vibe at 3in, if it did it would be back to 2in in front. Soooooo RR3in stock lines, disco 2in stock lines, 110 part time and stock lines

Maybe check with Jess at highangle he seems well liked and he gives away free shafts twice a month on POR.

Ron

Michael,

When does it vibrate - accelerating, neutral throttle or engine braking or all of the above cause it may be your pinion angle.

Sam

Spend the money on a CV shaft dude. You will thank yourself later for it. (remember my experience with a grenaded front shaft?). With adapter plate, it should cost you around $400. I have a Tom Woods model, with an aluminum adapter plate. I was concerned about the soft metal, but have had no trouble with them (front and rear) in the 3 years they have been on. Never had a problem with balancing, or any of the other supposed problems with CV jointed shafts.

One thing to consider though. If you get the cv-jointed shaft, you will need to angle the pinion up toward the t-case (parallel with the driveshaft). Not a problem for those of us with the 3-link, but the stock radius arms would have to be modified to accomplish this.

Blister

the double CV shaft i've got on my project90 came from Equippe4x4 in Italy (www.equippe4x4.com) and it works a treat. it's a BEEFY unit, with greasable joints, and came with the drive flange for the LT230 (in fact, it was just a stock Disco2 with 4 different holes drilled in it and bigger bolts)

when i stuck it on it 95% completely eradicated the vibes i was getting (i've not angled the pinion up to the t/case yet, so hopefully that'll be the remaining 5%!!)

they're available in the UK too via scorpion racing (www.scorpionracing.co.uk) at about £400 UKP all in.

Jamie

Way,

You are having a hard time with 6-states? We have been going there exclusively for about 5 years and have had no problems with the shafts themselves or the pricing. In fact the guy we have been working with has been VERY generous with his pricing.

For example:

I had a custom big huge rear driveline for the 145 made from scratch *and* had the original rear 127 driveline shortened to fit the 145, both drivelines for $350. I thought that was pretty good.

We'll see what a CV driveline will cost because I'll probably go there Monday to see what they can do and what it'll cost.

I do agree with Strange Rover though that it's probably pinion angle as well. I figured that with the RTE springs I'd need to have the arms caster corrected, and it's on the list of things to do. The vibration is constant above speeds of 60mph, so it might just be pinion angle? I don't want to hedge my bets, so I'll take Bill's advice and just get a driveline. Besides, it can't hurt to have a spare lying around right?

Ok, now for the tricky part. Since I'm ultimately planning on putting air springs on the LWB, how do I determine which caster angle to get it corrected for???? Probably would go for the ride height at highway speeds eh and correct for that?

Thanks,

Michael

oh wait, I guess it was Ron who didn't like 6-states, not Way.

Sorry.

(note to self: read previous posts closer and don't act like an f-in newbie :flipoff2: )

Michael

Damn, Don't like one vendor and now everyone thinks that Way is problamatic with all vendors.. WTF! :) :flipoff2:

In all seriousness I like Tom Woods products better than six states. They are slightly higher quality. I run six states and have never had a problem. I bought a Napa conversion u-joint. You know the ones that have a 1330 on two side and a 1350 on the other two, and bolted it right back in with my 44 with nifty straps. Talk about being a cheap bastard, going that route!

Problatic Vendor Way

I dont know if its the same in the states, but here in Oz the solid axle toyota 4runner/hilux has a cv front shaft. It is about 10mm longer than the front shaft out of my 89rr lt77/lt230 and if your handy on a lathe you can pull the yokes off each end and machine/redrill to rover pattern and make an adapter for the centre location. They have a reasonable CV, better ujoints than the rover and are cheap, here anyway (compared to getting a custom one made). I got a shaft out of a 96 hilux for $200 that was in real good nick, modded it and havent had any trouble since, with the lift on my rig the pinion angle is about 3 deg with stock arms and no vibes.
Dont DII have CV front shafts, one of those and a new yoke from a DII for the LT230 wouldnt work, wreckers here want about $600 for a shaft so that was too pricey for me.
Cheers

I've been looking into CV driveshafts for the 90, you might be interested in this: My mate Nevilles experence with his CV driveshaft on his rangie with 100mm lift:

http://home.off-road.com/~highrange/Modifications/Range_Rover_Suspension_Lift/range_rover_suspension_lift.html

However, the first unforeseen consequence of the lift soon became apparent.Ê During the first test drive a rather unhealthy noise was being transmitted through the drive train on de-acceleration.Ê A closer inspection revealed that the front drive shaft universal on the diff end was exceeding its maximum working angle.Ê The yoke castings were actually bottoming out on each other, and this was on level ground.Ê Under cross up conditions, the universal would have exploded!

I made the decision to fit a CV joint to the drive shaft.Ê Fitting a CV joint had several other advantages.Ê First, the CV joint is longer than a standard universal knuckle which generated a greater clearance between the drive shaft and the chassis cross member in front of the gearbox.Ê Secondly, because I was modifying the drive shaft anyway, it enabled me to have the drive shaft made 15 mm longer than standard and maintain the original length of spline engagement.

The drive shaft was modified and refitted to the vehicle, but during the test runs I could not solve a high-speed vibration in the driveline.Ê After consulting some overseas experts via e-mail it became apparent that when a CV joint is fitted to a drive shaft, the universal angle into the diff head must be straight.Ê Due to the resetting of the swing arms my universal angle was approximately 10 degrees.Ê So, out came the swing arms, the heating rose, the length of pipe, and my patient assistant.Ê After re-re-setting the swing arm angles, all but the smallest of vibrations were removed.Ê

enjoy!

ct

Michael,

I have no problem with 6 states, just with CV shafts in general.

"that with the RTE springs I'd need to have the arms caster corrected, and it's on the list of things to do."

Now here is another "gotcha." For the CV shaft you need the pinion up more, but to correct for castor the pinion ends up down more.

Follow? either better handling OR the correct angle for the cv shaft, not both. Improve one and you make the other one worse.

Ron

If you want to be real cheap and spend nothing, try turning the front drive shaft one more spline out of phase.
Worked for my disco:D

John D

I'm with Bill - spend the $400 for a new HD shaft and forget it.

With that kind of lift, one of your OEM UJ's is going to bite it one of these days, probably on highway when turning some high R's. Then, along with a new TC, you'll need to replace it anyway.

6-states, Woods, or a disti like GBR will fix you right up.

keith
:usa:

Tisdale was selling an SG CV shaft on some board recently, maybe he still has it ???

has anyone retubed a LR axle?

What if I cut the tubes off, corrected for the pinion angle, taking into account the improved caster angle.

I think that might work pretty well actually, and not be that hard to do in the long run???

Thoughts????

Michael

I have been doing some thinking about this myself. My thought is to replace the late model swivel's with earlier ones and have some custom tracta axels thrown in. Of course correct for castor in the process. Since I know have a spare rolling chassi laying arround, the gears have been turning (pun intended) more than usual.

-Jeff

ps, on a side note what doe this :massey: get used for? Yea a newbie question, but for such a cool smilie, ive never seen it in action.

:massey: = Massey

He's one of the longtime pirate board guys that occassionally pops up in chit chat and gen4x4. Basically known for doing everything over the top. He actually had a huge picture like that on the hood of his jeep.

The guys here would refer to "Massey" this or :massey: that as being something cool that's over the top or the biggest around.

-John

...Just a bit of POR history!

Originally posted by TallBrad
Tisdale was selling an SG CV shaft on some board recently, maybe he still has it ???

Sold it

Another way to sort out the caster angles would be to alter the position of the bolt holes on the swivels. JDM do this in Australia, essentially they remachine the swivels and provide 4 degrees of caster. I think its a weld the holes and then drill new ones at a slight offset routine.
http://www.jdm.com.au/suspensioncomp.htm

This would give you back some caster without bending radius arms etc, but still leaves any pinion angle problems unresolved.

ct

Originally posted by CT
Another way to sort out the caster angles would be to alter the position of the bolt holes on the swivels. JDM do this in Australia, essentially they remachine the swivels and provide 4 degrees of caster. I think its a weld the holes and then drill new ones at a slight offset routine.
http://www.jdm.com.au/suspensioncomp.htm

This would give you back some caster without bending radius arms etc, but still leaves any pinion angle problems unresolved.

ct

yeah i was thinking about that... if you were running say a 5" spring lift, couldnt you unbolt the swivels and rotate them back one set of bolt holes then bolt them back on?

i dunno how you would figure out how far to rotate them but it could be a possibility if you are running enough lift.

Originally posted by 9-Volt


yeah i was thinking about that... if you were running say a 5" spring lift, couldnt you unbolt the swivels and rotate them back one set of bolt holes then bolt them back on?

i dunno how you would figure out how far to rotate them but it could be a possibility if you are running enough lift.


Sorry 9v, the bolt holes are not evenly spaced around the bracket to prevent you from doing this simply. However, you could do as CT suggested and weld them in and re-drill/machine them in at a slightly different position.

-John

Originally posted by Rover Addiction



Sorry 9v, the bolt holes are not evenly spaced around the bracket to prevent you from doing this simply. However, you could do as CT suggested and weld them in and re-drill/machine them in at a slightly different position.

-John

i was afraid of that! d'oh!

i think that they are evenly spaced on a series truck though??? but i dunno what that would accomplish :D

I do see a couple reasons why they would do this however:

1: The castor is set from the factory and not adjustable. One less adjustment for the backyard mechanic to screw up.

2: If you look closely, there are more bolts on the bottom than the top. The stresses on that connection are pretty high since that is all that holds the wheel and swivel ball on the truck, so they concentrated the bolts where they would be under the most tension.

Every time I discover some little detail like this it reminds me that Land Rover engineers actually are pretty smart and they build good stuff. I know I wouldn't have thought of that!

-John

Originally posted by Rover Addiction
I do see a couple reasons why they would do this however:

1: The castor is set from the factory and not adjustable. One less adjustment for the backyard mechanic to screw up.

2: If you look closely, there are more bolts on the bottom than the top. The stresses on that connection are pretty high since that is all that holds the wheel and swivel ball on the truck, so they concentrated the bolts where they would be under the most tension.

Every time I discover some little detail like this it reminds me that Land Rover engineers actually are pretty smart and they build good stuff. I know I wouldn't have thought of that!

-John

yeah and the bolts are plenty strong!!! :eek:

at my last trip to the rover junkyard there was a discovery that had been hit somehow (still havent figured that part out) and it looked like someone had grabbed the front axle by the two tires and tried to pull it apart. the DS swivel ball failed, and the swivel pins ripped through the steel. thats some thick ass steel to rip through, and all the bolts were still intact!!!

surprised the hell out of me, i would have expected the bolts to shear first.

I think one bolt hole is like 30degrees of castor correction :)



Ron

With the swivel ball isnt it the clamping pressure of the bolts that stops the rotation of the knuckle rather than the holes themselves? so, in theory you could put the swivel ball on a rotary table in a mill and 'slot' the mounting holes. If you marked the original position of the swivel relative to the flange on the housing and knew the castor angle originally you could easily place the swivel back on in the desired position for the required amount of castor?

Originally posted by Rover Addiction
I do see a couple reasons why they would do this however:

2: If you look closely, there are more bolts on the bottom than the top. The stresses on that connection are pretty high since that is all that holds the wheel and swivel ball on the truck, so they concentrated the bolts where they would be under the most tension.

Every time I discover some little detail like this it reminds me that Land Rover engineers actually are pretty smart and they build good stuff. I know I wouldn't have thought of that!

-John

the 'early' 90/110 and rangie front axles were only 6 bolt, but they introduced the '7 bolt' axle when the discovery came out (maybe slightly earlier actually) so they obviously had stress issues with them back then.

although i find it amazing, that the stub axle is held on with only 6 bolts, even on the 'heavy duty' salisbury application. you'd have though that the stub axle would have as much stress on it as the swivel hub. although the PCD of the bolts are different (bigger on the stub axle) so maybe this gives extra strengh by spreading the load bearing bolts further apart?

Jamie

Originally posted by derangedrover
With the swivel ball isnt it the clamping pressure of the bolts that stops the rotation of the knuckle rather than the holes themselves?

In Theory, yes, the friction of the joint (a function of the clamping pressure of the bolts) is supposed to hold the knuckle in place.


so, in theory you could put the swivel ball on a rotary table in a mill and 'slot' the mounting holes. If you marked the original position of the swivel relative to the flange on the housing and knew the castor angle originally you could easily place the swivel back on in the desired position for the required amount of castor?

Again, in theory, this should work. However... I think that relying on these bolts to stay put and hold the castor in the right place is probably not the best idea. I actually did have some of these bolts come loose on my D110 and my first hint was the oil leaking from the joint. If I hadn't noticed this, it could have been a very bad experience. I think I'd prefer the safety of knowing that the swivel ball is located by both the friction of the joint and the bolts in their respective holes.

Remember this age old engineering question:
Q: What's the difference between theory and reality?
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A: In Theory... NOTHING! :flipoff2:



-John

Originally posted by Rover Addiction


In Theory, yes, the friction of the joint (a function of the clamping pressure of the bolts) is supposed to hold the knuckle in place.



Again, in theory, this should work. However... I think that relying on these bolts to stay put and hold the castor in the right place is probably not the best idea. I actually did have some of these bolts come loose on my D110 and my first hint was the oil leaking from the joint. If I hadn't noticed this, it could have been a very bad experience. I think I'd prefer the safety of knowing that the swivel ball is located by both the friction of the joint and the bolts in their respective holes.

Remember this age old engineering question:
Q: What's the difference between theory and reality?
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A: In Theory... NOTHING! :flipoff2:



-John

ROTFLMAO - love that theory. Great stuff :D

Slotting the holes sounds like a good idea and if you were worried about the theory then once the holes are slotted and you are happy with the caster then you could easily drill the flange in a couple of more spots and hammer in some hardned pins to be sure it never moves.

Sam

Wouldn't it be easier to index the flanges, cut them off, rotate to desired angle and reweld?

Seems a HELL of a lot easier than slotting out NICELY and ACCURATELY not only 7 holes, but 7 holes on each flange AND each swivel ball.

That's 14 slots you'd have to do to AND make sure they were all even.

Unless you had a CNC or a mill, good luck.

When cutting and welding, you would need to make sure each one was rotated the same as the other side :-)

at least you only have to get 2 things the same, not 14.

You dont have to make the slots all that accurate, a mill and a rotary table is required yes (which a lot of engine machine shops and nearly all good machine shops will have), but the accuracy comes from knowing the original castor angle and the original position of the knuckle relative to the housing. You know the circumference of the mounting flange, divide that by 360, and you can make 1 degree markings to adjust the castor. The swivel ball locates on a shoulder in the housing so the bolts only stop rotation and axial loads. File the holes out if you want, they only have to allow the amount of rotation to get the castor back, not accurately locate the knuckle.
Sounds a lot easier than trying to cut bits off, re-index accurately and re-weld, being careful not to warp the housing etc etc and its adjustable if you change your ride height or reset arms for pinion angle or whatever.

Just checked with John Davis, here's their answer. Those are Aussie bucks.

>if you send us your swivel hubs we can machine them for $240, mod gives 2.5
>deg apx adjustment. we also have offset front radius arm bushes that give
1deg apx adjustment

ct

Originally posted by Serious One
Wouldn't it be easier to index the flanges, cut them off, rotate to desired angle and reweld?

Seems to me that it would be pretty tough to cut and re-weld the flanges getting both the same and keeping them straight. However, it's probably going to end up much stronger than slotted holes.

Seems a HELL of a lot easier than slotting out NICELY and ACCURATELY not only 7 holes, but 7 holes on each flange AND each swivel ball.

That's 14 slots you'd have to do to AND make sure they were all even.

:confused: Basically, you'd have to slot the holes in each swivel ball. Leave the flanges alone as that's where the bolts thread into. The slots don't have to be identical as long as they're close and whichever one is not alligned will be the limiting factor. I'm not real convinced about the strength at that point though.

Unless you had a CNC or a mill, good luck.

So basically, I agree. Good luck. I wouldn't even try it on my own.

-John

If you pull out the 7 bolts that hold the swivel flange in its place, you will find that 1 of the bolts fits the holes snug, while the other 6 bolts have about 1/32" clearance. That one oversize bolt is the "locator" bolt and that one bolt takes all of the radial loading put on the bolts. Also I did the trig once and I think 1 degree rotation added up to about 1/32" rotation of the hole...it isnt much. So What I figured is doing the index thing and slotting 6 holes the reqd. amount. Put a larger hole in the 7th hole(say 3/4" dia) to be the locater hole in the proper indexed position. Then turn and drill a sleeve to press in the 1 locater hole, press in the sleeve and add a dutchman to keep in place. I wanted to offer this as a service but people would need to send their swivels in and the accuracy would be in the hands of a alignment shop to determine the current castor angle, and we all know the same shop will read it different each different day, so I saw only a headache to offer that service. But it is easily do-able realizing that the one locater bolt is the key.

Also the holes are a standard pattern, 4 holes at 60 deg, 3 holes at 40 deg. The locator bolt can go back in any one of the holes, makes no difference. To do it accurately you need a shop to read the castor angle each swivel as that may vary. Mark the swivels for which side they go to and send the bolts with the swivel to have the locator bushing made correctly to fit. If anyone needs the trig or wants more info call me and I will be glad to help out. The arms can be offset to correct the pinion angle for a CV joint then the swivels corrected for castor, but overall I think the best cure is correct the swivels then just get a double/double cardon shaft and never have to worry about future mods and changing the cure again. Thats what I did and as I seem to always go higher in lift and I dont have to worry about any drive line stuff.
The castor can always be corrected by simply changing the "locater bolt" sleeve to the correct position.

Yeah, I guess I was getting a little out of control when I suggested you would need to do 14 slots instead of 7.

Now it's only half as hard as I had thought it was going to be.

Cool!

I still think it'd be easier to chop off the flanges and redo them to the correct angle.

Maybe another thought would be to relocate the radius arm mounts?

Are we really sure you need to re-do the castor angle on the axle if it's done on the radius arms? Can't a CV joint be used with the castor corrected arms? We have a guy that did the DII front driveline in conjunction with the adjusted arms and he has reported no problems with vibrations. If anyone was going to complain it was this guy, pretty damn anal retentive, so since he hasn't complained I'm just starting to wonder if all the axle housing work is really necessary?

Fellas:
It looks like I found the right place. Consider me a newbie to the board, but not to Rovers and certainly not to wrenching and machining. Discoweb finally got to me. Just think, if Kyle hadn't started ranting, I wouldn't have found this place!

I have a '95 Disco that is slowly but surely being modified to a greater extent than yesterday.

I also have occasional driveline vibrations from my RTE lift. As a result, and also due to a horrific experience working on my front driveshaft, I have seriously considered a CV front driveshaft, however, it was my impression that part of the reason for the vibrations was due to the pinion angle misalignment. Further, I thought that the CV driveshaft was supposed to compensate for this pinion misalignment. But, I read here where folks are suggesting the CV driveshaft and pinion realignment.

Am I correct in my assumption that one cannot adequately cure driveline vibes by merely replacing the front driveshaft with one with a CV joint, rather than the U-joints in the stock configuration? I'm now assuming that it requires not only CVs, but also realigning the pinion. If this is the case, will realigning the pinion be sufficient to eliminate vibes?

Bill said:
If you get the cv-jointed shaft, you will need to angle the pinion up toward the t-case (parallel with the driveshaft).

Paul
I think I got the right Icon, this one isn't insulting, is it?

:flipoff2: