Rear axle in a Disco. Would you use a Salisbury, 35 spline; a cut down 14-bolt; or a Spidertrax 9"?

I'm digging the Spidertrax unit, but it adds up very quickly. I'm not so much worried about the cost, rather the axle options and axle strength. What's avaliable axle wise besides Moser?

I don't think on either axle the R&P would pose a problem. Although, on the 9" at a minimum a Nodular diff needs to be fitted; Hi9 would just be overkill, yet sexy.

I personally dislike the Salsbury because its a monster, and heavy to boot. I don't know much about the 14 bolt, but guess its similar in weight and size. I am a huge fan of the Spider 9's, not because of what Keith does, just because of what they have to offer. They are pretty lightweight, much, much more ground clearance than the aforementioned options. And the biggest advantage in my mind is the dropout 3rd. While you don't have to pull diffs very much it is quite nice when there is trouble.

The other thing about the Spider 9 is that you don't have to truehi9's right away. You can run a regular 9" and later on if you want to upgrade its really easy to unload 9" housings...

14 bolts have shitty ground clearance with anything less that a 38 inch tire.

coolest option i have seen as far as stamped steel housing, beef and cheap would be to get an eaton with 4.56 gears in it (very common), and turn the eaton upside down and backwards. this will give you an offset for the r side output.

let me explain, the eaton has a removeable diff cover and a drop out third. you just swap the third to the side where the diff cover was and put on a diff cover of your choice and voila.

you then weld on your disc brake caliper brackets and you can weld on a truss and tabs wherever you like as it is a nice thick stamped steel housing.

later you can buy a 14 bolt detroit for $300 and swap in the 14 bolt shafts (same lengths, different spline count).

this axle will have roughly the same weight as a nine inch and you have a 10" ring gear.

you could feasably build it for under $200 if you get a deal on the eaton and just put in a welded set of 14bolt spider gears.

scott at rockstomper is an expert on this axle so i would refer to him.

i have only built one of these and it is still in use on the back of the ballistic shop truck.

14 bolts have shitty ground clearance with anything less that a 38 inch tire.

True, but the last 14-bolt I messed with we did this:
http://www.virginia4x4.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10010/100_0116.jpg
http://www.virginia4x4.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10010/100_0137.jpg
http://www.virginia4x4.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10010/100_0139.jpg
http://www.virginia4x4.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10010/100_0142.jpg


That made a huge difference.

personally i love the 14bolt. and then you can get bigger than a 38" tire:flipoff2:

big tires make rocks more fun.

14 bolt.

problem is offset. if trail rig you could run it offset or look into another t-case atlas or stak, otherwise cut and resize and have mosar make you some axle.

If you it's a DD rig then I would go toy conversion 30 spline. salsibury is a rip. d60 isn't near as strong as a 14 bolt and for 3k? :shaking:

to offset the 14 bolt...


cut the axle tubes. and switch them so that the short side of the housing is on the pinion output side and use the shafts as a guide for measurement. sleeve the inside of the axle tubes, bevel, fill weld the tubes together, plug weld to the sleeve, and for extra strength weld a truss over the seams you just welded and use it for your upper link/a arm mount.

done and done. you won't break it.

and justin i don't want to hear any crap about the weld being weak mister diff welder.:flipoff2:

i have seen plenty of butt welded axle tubes hold up great. even stronger than the plug welds in the diff casting.

THere's a used coil (i think) salisbury for sale at ECR for 200$...D60 inners, a shave and you are good to go...no?

It comes with drums though...how easy is it to change a drum Salisbury to discs?

9in all the way. Since you said money is not an issue. It can be built stronger and way lighter. Disco's are already slugs.

nice shave job on that 14 bolt.

if money isn't a big issue the eaton would be the last axle i would use. doesn't it weigh more than a 14 bolt and have even worse ground clearance? i don't think there are any aftermarket gears either.

ben,
i am only speaking from limitted experience.

we shaved an eaton and it has roughly the same clearance as a nine, and it was fifty bones for the axle, and we found a used set of 513 gears, you are right there are NO AFTERMARKET gears or other parts for that matter.

but we had the whole thing thrown together for five hundred including the detroit.

it mostly matters if the axle is nearly free.

that is why cheap was the trick with the eaton i built.

but i agree. the nine is the ticket...but i would not do a high nine in the rear. then you are running on the coast side of the gears. all things considered it probably wouldn't matter considering even the coast side of the high nine is still beef.
but unless you have to have high pinion in the rear, it is better imho to stick with a good strange nine with a deroit or arb in the ass.:flipoff2:

oh wait, i see you said "if money isn't a big issue"....

yep nine....

btw,
ben do you have a phone number you can pm me?

i have some diesel questions, unless you think i am a turd and don't want to talk to me:D

i know shit about them and wondering what is available here in az that would be good in a disco diesel wise...

hijack off.

First off, this hypothetical BS is as irritating as the Willey argument. Quit discussing it and get building! We all have our own ideas as to what's best :flipoff2:

I have a pair of D60s AND a pair of 9" carriers. What to do, what to do?

I think a good way to go, and what I tried to sell to Alex before he decided on the Toy conversion, is a brandy new Strange Engineering housing, Rover outers, Moser axles and wheel the everlovin' piss out of it. Yeah, I know many of you are less than impressed with the quality and customer service of Moser ever since Greg died, but they are within neck-wringing distance for me (About the only thing Indiana has to offer, Hell, I couldn't even get what i wanted from Earl's on gas alley).

You'd have arguably bulletproof third members with pinion bearing supports, brand new housings made to fit a Rover and although you might sacrifice some shaft diameter, you'd be able to bolt your Rover wheels to it.

Get the Strange housings in mild carbon steel for trail-side repairs (in the unlikely situation where you'd bust something off the housing) and easier, cheaper welding of brackets, etc to the housing.

Other than the labor to have the mounts made and welded on, it wouldn't be THAT expensive.

That said, since Nadim just let the cat out of the bag, he will probably be receiving a phone call after I talk to ECR this morning. A bolt-in Sals is better than a hybrid 9" Rover that would cost much more and still require nearly as much work as my fitting the two D60s I already have, and a whole lot cheaper at that!

At one time, ECR was selling off Sal's houshings for 50 bucks. That was as recent as a year ago. By the time you add a locker, R&P, and axles, it's still a $1500.00+ axle...

By the time you add a locker, R&P, and axles, it's still a $1500.00+ axle...

I don't need no stinkin' locker!

I have two 4.10 carriers with R&P for the 60.

Time to call ECR.

FWIW, http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8401&highlight=Salisbury

14 bolt in a Rover makes no sense to me. The Eaton is the same axle, can be shaved the same way (except I would rather shave a fabricated axle housing than a cast center section), is the same width, can be converted to 5 on 6.5 if you use forged hubs and weld them up and machine, and all the ratios you need are available and has the offset capability. Only PITA is the brakes, I used Disco front brakes and they worked OK but I spent half a day machining the hubs and still had wheel clearance issues with Rover wheels. The ARB from the 14 bolt fits. I agree that 9 inch makes sense when dealing with no budget.

BTW it is very easy to convert from drum to disc on Sali's.

If a guy does the work himself figure $400 for spindles and bearings $200 for the work on the hubs for bigger wheel bearings, $400 for Axles. If you use the stock Sals carrier you can do a Dana 70 drop in No Spin with 35 splines for about $400(it's a two piece like a 14 bolt or a dana 70). You can also do Dana gears in them and the carrier ratio break is the same as a 60.. The diff bearings are the same as a Dana 60 (except the pinion nose bearing) so a 60 master kit will work. The special Pinion nose bearing is currently unobtainium from Timken but i have the on order and place to stock several just in case.

BTW it is very easy to convert from drum to disc on Sali's.



If one had an ample supply of Rover axles, could the spindles be modified to use on the Salisbury?

I have a call into Mike and am working on a purchase-pending approval of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

sure, paul,
just machine a flange to weld onto the eaton. then you just have to get custom shafts cut to whatever spline count you wind up with in the eaton and if you are using rover outers you will more than likely need custom drive flanges cut to fit the custom shafts in the old ass eaton.

i would do a nine if you want a hybrid.

do the nine.

never mind i didn't read your post paul, i am an idiot.

Nope

Salisbury Spindles or the Drum Rover type are different than the disc type. More like a Series flange, rather than the integral flange/caliper mount found on the Disc Rover type. So drum braked Spindles register on the O.D. of the flange rather than the I.D. of the flange like on the Disc brake flange. In 94 or 95 LR made a bracket to upgrade to Disc brakes and then in 1996 the Salisbury got the Disc brake flang/caliper bracket we're so used to seeing on the Disc Rover type. That makes the early drum Sals easier to deal with than the later type when it comes to different brakes..

Aaron... You idiot!! Sorry just had to..

On another note it's very easy to do a 30 spline Sals if it's a later one. For some Overlanding guys this might be a nice feature.. I'll still do 35 spline though..

i always thought the sals was a cool axle? what are the drawbacks?
i thought it could be upgraded to 35spline shafts with 60 gears and lockers and whatnot.

Yeah it can be 35 spline easily.. Probably the biggest drawback is its clearance issues and like any 60 it's on the heavy side..
But it bolts in and can be upgraded so it's a good option in that respect..

when i pulled my disco rear out it wasn't a whole lot lighter than my 60 i replaced it with....:flipoff2:

i don't think the "weight savings" thing really makes that big of a difference, especially when stacked up against the increase in scrempf...

besides, unsprung weight lends to better stability and lower center of gravity.

i almost never flop in my buggy now that i have a lead lined 14bolt regenerating a new and deeper relationship with the earth...:D

I myself, FWIW; am very impressed with the Spidertrax setup. One of the guys in the UK, on LR4x4 has done a full trialer with the spidertrax front and rear. He posted up the full build with pics, and they came out beautifully. Cheap housings, even if you opt for the extra thick-wall material. Order the overall length, and diff offset you want at no extra price. The drop-out thirds are awesome. And the 9" R+p is ridiculously strong. Surely, not the strongest, but near bulletproof. I agree with the previous post about staying away from the hipinion at first, but like he said, you can go to them later. If I wasn't planning portals for the DII, I would go Spidertrax. I actually considered scrapping the FJ60 axles for the Series, in favor of Spider 9's; but I want to keep that one on a tight budget. BUT; as the original poster stated; if money WASN'T an option, Spidertrax definitely.

when i pulled my disco rear out it wasn't a whole lot lighter than my 60 i replaced it with....:flipoff2:

i don't think the "weight savings" thing really makes that big of a difference, especially when stacked up against the increase in scrempf...

besides, unsprung weight lends to better stability and lower center of gravity.

i almost never flop in my buggy now that i have a lead lined 14bolt regenerating a new and deeper relationship with the earth...:D


Agreed but some folks complain about these things.. Lead lined 14 bolt? I like that idea...

what'd you just know that I'd eventually post in this thread? I assume you are talking to me about diesel stuff in az I'll send you a pm with my number.

As for the axle 9" can be built to the strength of a built 60 now with less weight seems like the ticket if you're not worried about cost. If you end up looking at the cost and balking go with either a shave 14 bolt with all the work or might want to consider a toy rear with cromo shafts as another option

-ben

oh wait, i see you said "if money isn't a big issue"....

yep nine....

btw,
ben do you have a phone number you can pm me?

i have some diesel questions, unless you think i am a turd and don't want to talk to me:D

i know shit about them and wondering what is available here in az that would be good in a disco diesel wise...

hijack off.

even a toy rear with stock shafts will live a LONG time. i had a toy rear in my buggy before i went one ton. i never broke one shaft...ever. and i blew out two lock rights and 3 sets of r/p's.

the stock toy shafts and 38.5 sx's...no problem.

ben, my contacts at the psychic friends hotline keyed me in:flipoff2:

imho, the "lightweight" solution is retarded on a full body truck. you have it backwards if you think the "smart" thing to do is save weight in the axles. so you have nice lightweight axles with a 200lb roof rack loaded up with shit? good plan.

the toy conversion is a sexy option for the rover axles...you can even keep the rover drive train, but if you want light weight, take off the body and build a tube chassis.

other wise if you want a burly full body trail truck, one ton will be your friend.

even with the beef of 30spline longs and toy thirds, you still have 5-6k of weight with a v8 pushing it. everything has its limits.


oh and the disco brakes suck balls.:smokin:

you could also have diamond build you 9 in. housings that uses whatever outers you want. a diamond housing with a 9 in. dropout and d60 outers would be sweet.

my diamond toy housings will come out being only 1500.00 more than the rover toy conversion (granted i had the toy knuckles, spindles, and hubs laying around.) i went with all toy stuff because let's face it, the 4.0 is no powerhouse and with no underdrive the torque isn't enough to break anything unless you are abusive.

even a toy rear with stock shafts will live a LONG time. i had a toy rear in my buggy before i went one ton. i never broke one shaft...ever. and i blew out two lock rights and 3 sets of r/p's.

the stock toy shafts and 38.5 sx's...no problem.

ben, my contacts at the psychic friends hotline keyed me in:flipoff2:

x2 there is a reason you go to a junk yard and find tons of rear axles but no 3rds.

I just got off the phone with ECR.

I don't think I've ever had anybody try to talk me out of spending money like this before.

Mike seems to think that the bombproof setup is a Rover housing with a Summers Brother 30 spline locker. He claims that a "bombproof" (his words, not mine) locked rear axle can be built for $800 using Summers Brothers stuff.

Personally, I think I'm gonna see what I can do with the Salisbury, pending approval of the Chancellor of the Exchequer (who right now is not making spending $ easy until she gets to go visit my roommates in PDX).

PT

So I take it no more sals for $50?

Well Summers does solve the 24 spline on the diff, but they still will use a smaller diameter shaft compared to the toy conversion using the rover axle housing - the toy you must bore out the spindles. Even at that the rover R&P is much weaker than the toy R&P. Especially when you start looking at gearing options. With that aside, the rover R&P is stronger than given credit.

Secondly the toy setup from Keith is $575. Add in your labor $0 and a toy diff $100 (for a v6 even) add in a locker $250. Your looking at $925. And you have a rock solid sewer cap.... naw, I'm not buying it. Toy setup gets my vote.

If you go toy setup you need to at least upgrade to 4.11 gearing for the front though too. which then brings up more problems.....

Bombproof though? ha! good one.

The way he spoke, I'm the only person in the world who wants them as he was throwing them in the trash to prepare for moving the shop.

He's gonna sell me the two he has right now and every time one comes off a truck, I get first shot at it.

I'll see about getting shipping quotations tomorrow for a pallet with two of them on it.

I am willing to sacrifice ground clearance for what I consider to be one Hell of a strong real axle.

I think the ford 9 inch is the way to go. I have run 9/60 hybred axles for years and have had no problems.

one thing to remember is that save ~10 lbs gain 1 hp and vice versa.

I think weight is very important building rigs for hard core trails. take a look at the comp buggies.

one thing to remember is that save ~10 lbs gain 1 hp and vice versa.

On my Disco with 223K miles, I'll solve the HP problem with a 4.2. With luck, it will over-compensate for the additional weight of the Salisbury.

I think the ford 9 inch is the way to go. I have run 9/60 hybred axles for years and have had no problems.

one thing to remember is that save ~10 lbs gain 1 hp and vice versa.

I think weight is very important building rigs for hard core trails. take a look at the comp buggies.

comp buggies also have engines that will over heat after 30 min run time and 1 gallon fuel cells.

different philosophy. if i have to make a choice between beef or horse power, i will take beef. i am not wheeling a mud truck.:flipoff2:

On my Disco with 223K miles, I'll solve the HP problem with a 4.2. With luck, it will over-compensate for the additional weight of the Salisbury.

There you go over-compensating for something else...

I think a good way to go, and what I tried to sell to Alex before he decided on the Toy conversion, is a brandy new Strange Engineering housing, Rover outers, Moser axles and wheel the everlovin' piss out of it. Yeah, I know many of you are less than impressed with the quality and customer service of Moser ever since Greg died, but they are within neck-wringing distance for me (About the only thing Indiana has to offer, Hell, I couldn't even get what i wanted from Earl's on gas alley).

You'd have arguably bulletproof third members with pinion bearing supports, brand new housings made to fit a Rover and although you might sacrifice some shaft diameter, you'd be able to bolt your Rover wheels to it.

Get the Strange housings in mild carbon steel for trail-side repairs (in the unlikely situation where you'd bust something off the housing) and easier, cheaper welding of brackets, etc to the housing.

Thanks! You basically (kinda) described my setup in the rear. I had a lot of issues and had to redo most of it but it works well now. No broken axle shafts yet, knock on wood.

First off, this hypothetical BS is as irritating as the Willey argument.

Some Gold Bond Medicated Powder will clear up that irritation Paul. :eek:

I did bolt-on parts for my Sals. disc brake conversion. IIRC, we did have a very early Range Rover axle that we stole the stub axles off of, then all of the Sals. hub stuff went right on. No fiddling with the hub or stub axle at all. The trick was to get a bracket mounted in the right location to do the disc brakes. Cooper fabbed up a thick plate, drilled/tapped it, bolted it to the caliper then fiddled with adjustement until it was right.

Seems to be working pretty dang well on my 7500lb. beast.

I have an ARB in it and some of those cool strong Maxi-Drive axles. :flipoff2:

I called ECR once about a Salisbury a long time ago and he gave me the same thing about how they aren't worth it. But are they overall cheaper to build and lock than the rovertracks rear kit which I've been thinking about doing?

Sals all the way, but then I am in the land where you can buy a drum-braked sals for US$150. :flipoff2:

I will be starting my front sals project soon - Keith - I am looking in your direction (need axles!).

I've decided to move away from 1 Tons...I'll create a new thread...Paul, you know what I mean :)

Paul, you know what I mean :)

Why yes, yes I do. I think I'm now torn between the 9" and Saliburys...

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

:flipoff2:

With Spindles, caliper brackets, a bit of machine work some axles an arb all the goodies you can build a Sally for about $2K in parts (about $400 less if you do a Detroit) You can built a spider 9" low pinion for less than that but it involves more work. A high pinion takes you over $4k in the 9" Remember the Spider 9 housing is only about $400..

I think if you can get a Sally housing for a good price you have a great axle that bolts in..

Custom housings do allow for more track width if you want.

Seems to me you would want greater width in the front, wouldn't you? Not the rear? I mean sure, on a truck that sees a lot of road you may want that the other way around. But off-road, wouldn't be more of an advantage to have a narrower rear end when it come to turning?

I'm almost starting to think a shaved sals is the ticket in the rear. Although it weighs more than my next-door-neighbor, with the beefed up axles I don't think it's going to break. Sure is easy to mount and it's high pinion to boot. Then a Ford 60 up front with Cheby outters and chromo shafts.........

......does this stuff ever end?

I'm almost starting to think a shaved sals is the ticket in the rear.

......does this stuff ever end?

That was not an earthquake, it was the Earth wobbling on its axis in reaction to Chapman agreeing with me:flipoff2:

As I told Nadim Saturday afternoon (great conversation BTW Nadim) I am more than willing to give up some clearance in exchange for strength. IMO, the housing of the Salisbury ought to be able to withstand the abuse "I" will give it, both from bashing it against rocks hidden in the mud and however much horsepower and torque I can wrangle out of a Rover V8.

I still say Spider 9", every bit as strong with much greater clearance...

As I told Nadim Saturday afternoon (great conversation BTW Nadim) I am more than willing to give up some clearance in exchange for strength.

Hmmmmm - you may way want to think real hard about that trade-off, wheeling where you do.

No beef in the world is going to get you moving down that muddy, rutted UP trail when your big-ass Sals is dragging the middle. I've been there enough times with a lame OEM axle...

If I ever do an axle swap, it'll be to Mog portals, just for the clearance. When wheeling ruts or bogs (yuck), clearance is the *only* thing !!