I am about to order my tubing to make my rear 4-link out of. I am using big ole tractor joints as my heims for now and was planning on just cutting the rods that they come with in half and welding them to some DOM for simplicity. The ID of the tractor bars is a ~1.5". I was going to use 1.5x.250DOM for the links, bending the lower ones and adding bracing to the tops like Wagoner Machine Shop does. But some people are telling me that 1.5x.250DOM isn't heavy enough and that they always use at least 2x.250 DOM! That sound a bit overkill to me, and it seems like ground clearance on the arms would suck. But this is my first custom suspension, so I am wondering. The OD on my tractor bars is ~1.9". This means that my next size up option is 2.5x.250DOM, which I refuse to use since it will soak up so much damned ground clearance! What is everyone else using and what do they reccomend?

J. J.

I use 2X.250 DOM for my links. I don't drag the lower links over the rocks that often, but they are mounted to the top of the axle tube instead of under it....even with the whole weight of rear of the truck on a link I haven't had one bend.

I was also thinking about mounting mine above the axle. I was just going to mount the bottom links there instead of below and the top links on the top of the dif. In theory, it should work about the same as otherwise. The main difference being the stress that would be applied to the welded seems of the brackets and the actual links, right?

I know everyone knows what comes next: Anyone got any pics? :D

J. J.

Hello? I need to make my order and no one has chimed in on this one! I figured everyone would have an opinion on this!

J. J.

I was planning to use 1 1/2"x .250 DOM. My driveshafts are .250 and they take a hell of a beating in the rocks. I cant see needing any more than that. I also hate adding that much more unsprung weight flopping around under my rig. Anyone with more experience with this have an opinion?

buy some water pipe for this job. Save your jack for DOM tubing when you get some real ends.

tony k

Originally posted by TONY K
buy some water pipe for this job. Save your jack for DOM tubing when you get some real ends.

tony k

Thanks, newbie, but the question was: What size is everyone else using in DOM?

The question was NOT: Should I use DOM or pipe?

Do you see the difference? Post again when you have something useful to add.

J. J.

Originally posted by TONY K
buy some water pipe for this job. Save your jack for DOM tubing when you get some real ends.

tony k

So what size tubing do you use on your link suspension? I guess I missed that somewhere.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by zags
I was planning to use 1 1/2"x .250 DOM. My driveshafts are .250 and they take a hell of a beating in the rocks. I cant see needing any more than that. I also hate adding that much more unsprung weight flopping around under my rig. Anyone with more experience with this have an opinion?

The last set of links I built went on a YJ....1.25" .281 DOM, sleeved with 1.5" .120, sleeved again with 1.75" .120. Total, 1.75" .521. They hold up pretty well, but one of them has a slight "bow" in it right now. (not enough to fix, but it's there)

Depending on how heavy your rig is, you might be able to get away with the smaller links you're talking about.

Mike uses .350 (not sure what OD they are though - I'd guess 1.5-1.75) wall on his Samurai. They seem to hold up well to the bulky 2500lb vehicle. ;)

i used 1 1/5 .250 wall dom on my last set of links.
at that time i had 13/16 shaft heim and had to build a tube adapter.


I didn't really trust them after i saw how easy a similar set folded. so i rebuild mine using

1 5/8 .250 wall 1430 cro-mo. and 1.25 shaft heims. i then bored the tube out a few thousands and threaded the new heim directly into the tube.

fyi 1 5/8 tube has an ID of 1.6

Hmmm . . . My rig has 1-ton running gear, 2 t-cases, 350, and TH350. It will be light in spite of those since it is a CJ5 frame and body and most of the body is coming off soon. here is what I am thinking:

The upper links don't need to be anything special. They won't be in danger of hitting any rocks before the driveshaft does, so I will just make those 1.5x.250 straight links. (They only need to hold up to engine torque.) The lower links I could bent and brcae like Wagoner Machine does. That should be more than enough to hold up against breaking and bending them, I should imagine. Just for reference, here are some pics of Wagoner's:

http://www.wagonermachine.com/mark14bolt.jpg

http://www.wagonermachine.com/blue-4.jpg

What do ya'll think?

J. J.

Originally posted by Lance
Mike uses .350 (not sure what OD they are though - I'd guess 1.5-1.75) wall on his Samurai. They seem to hold up well to the bulky 2500lb vehicle. ;)

What do you use, Lance?

J. J.

Originally posted by patooyee


What do you use, Lance?

J. J.

he uses schedule 80 water pipe. farmtech :flipoff2:

I think that not using those cheap ass tractor joints is pretty fawking useful advice. It doesnt get much better than that!!! HAHAHAHAHA:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :eek: :nuke:

Originally posted by camo


he uses schedule 80 water pipe. farmtech :flipoff2:

sewer pipe. get it right. :flipoff2:

Just because it say Newbie....

Point of my answer is water pipe is cheap, $1.50 ft. vs DOM at $5.00 per ft.

How much money don you want to invest on a tractor joint?

The guy that asked about what your rig weighs is right. But also, how long are the links?

I assume you know all of this so on to the question you asked.

I use 1.50 x .250 DOM for 36" lower links with no bends.
I use 1.25 x .120 DOM for 30" upper links with no bends.
I use 1.25 x .250 DOM for tie rod, drag link, and track bar. Track bar has 4 bends for clearance.
All links use weld in tube adapters and chromoly rod ends.

Jeeps are full comp buggies that weigh 2500 lbs.

**** what are you using for coils on yours ??????? *******

See ya,

tony k

I get DOM WAAAAAAY cheaper than you are getting it. So I am not concerned about how much the tube costs vs. pipe. And as for the tractor heims, I can replace each one 4 times for a few dollars less than the same size "high quality" heim would cost. However, the tractor joints I am using have a MUCH beefier body on them. So for now, I am sticking with the HUGE tractor joints. End of discussion, especially since no one ever asked about them to begin with, fuckers.

My rig is probably considerably heavier than 2500 lbs. Probably closer to 4000. (2 t-cases, 1-ton axles, V8 . . . ) However, if I do go 1.5x.250, my lower links are going to be bent and braced as seen in the pics above, only with more cross bracing. The upper links will just be straight 1.5x.250. If anyone sees this as not being beefy enough, please tell me. I really think that the lower links will be stronger than straight 2x.250 though with the bracing.

Whoever said anything about coils?

J. J.

I just asked the fawking question about the coils because I was really looking for your opinion on what worked well for you.

But who really cares about your POS anyway ????

I didn't mean to be an ass about the coil comment. Sorry if it came out that way. It seemed like the topic was starting to shift away from what I needed to know about and it was pissing me of.

I haven't got any springs under it yet. (The rear that is.) I am planning on using 1/4 elip. I'll let you know how it works if you are interrested. They're nothing fancy. Just Chevy 1-ton rear springs chopped and leaves subtracted. It's like a 14-leaf pack with very thin leaves, so I'm anticipating more flex than I can handle. The front is done. It is SOA using 44044's. I need to wear them in before my flex gets anywhere nar balanced. :)

J. J.

I'm a d!ck, you're a d!ck.

The coil question was from the picture you posted. I saw coils under one end or another. I wanted to know what coils you used and how they worked. (type of wheeling you do and how they worked for that. Too soft, too stiff, just right ????)

see ya,


tony k

nice job on the website. clean. easy to update.

Originally posted by TONY K
I'm a d!ck, you're a d!ck.

The coil question was from the picture you posted. I saw coils under one end or another. I wanted to know what coils you used and how they worked. (type of wheeling you do and how they worked for that. Too soft, too stiff, just right ????)

see ya,


tony k

nice job on the website. clean. easy to update.

the pics he posted are of the red toyota (if you can still call it a toyota) built by one of the guys from Wagner Machine Shop, down in wagner, OK.

I have some friends who use 1.5/.250 and it is stout, I can see it being bent on a hard impact. I used to use the 1.5/.250 but when I built the Jeep with rockwells I used 1.75/.375 and I really can't imagine bending it. I'm sure it can be done but I just don't think it is very likely.

If you bend your arms like some of the pics and what your planning to do and you use heims at both ends, you'll need to find a way to keep the arms centered in the heim joints so it isn't flopping around. I guess it wouldn't hurt anything assuming no clearance issues but it would bug me.

CJ

Guess I just got a clue.....It's not his.

I take back my previous "I'm a d!ck - He's a d!ck"

now it's only " I'm a d!ck"

see ya,

tony k

Originally posted by CrazyHorse


the pics he posted are of the red toyota (if you can still call it a toyota) built by one of the guys from Wagner Machine Shop, down in wagner, OK.
the springs as i recall are stock grand cherokee coils (either that, or 2in lift superlift xj coils, it was featured in on of the 4x4 mags recently)
JOhn

If you guys are done bitchin, ask who ever your getting your dom tube from what the tensil strength and bend strength is and I would bet money that there is not that much differance in 1.5od x.250 wall as to 1.75od x.250 wall. I use 1.625od x .250 wall with tube adapters and .750 hiems on a 2800 pound rig and it puts out over 300 ft. lbs of tourque and I don't have any problems with my lower links and as for as cheap and easy as it is to make spare lowers you may as well and reuse the joints.

:beer: :beer:

*Clarification*

Get ahold of Ant @ SRC (http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/main2.html) and he is probably the right person you need to talk with about whether he will agree with your theory using the braced 1.5x.250 tube for your suspension set-up. He might have an answer to what you're looking for (I.e. tubing sizes, thickness, strength etc).

Originally posted by nightcrawler


Tractor joints

Get ahold of Ant @ SRC (http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/main2.html) He fabricated 4 link suspension using tractor joints rather than the heims. So I think he is probably the right person you need to talk with about using the tractor joints in your suspension set-up. He might have an answer to what you're looking for.

(NOT trying to be an ass:D)

But... patooyee (my brother) is just trying to see about STRENGTH of tubing and what he should use on a STRENGTH aspect, not if they will work, or how they will work with tractor joints... Hes just trying to get some first hand experience about how X thickness and X diameter tubing will hold up to abuse... Nothing more.
:D:D:D

Originally posted by TyTy


(NOT trying to be an ass:D)

But... patooyee (my brother) is just trying to see about STRENGTH of tubing and what he should use on a STRENGTH aspect, not if they will work, or how they will work with tractor joints... Hes just trying to get some first hand experience about how X thickness and X diameter tubing will hold up to abuse... Nothing more.
:D:D:D

I'm steering him in a right direction, Ant @ SRC built the set-up just almost what your brother want to do on his rig. He can give an advice on the thickness of the tubing or the size of the tubing to withstand the abuse when driven a heavy rig on tough trails. I think his experience with building the suspension can save your brother a great deal of time and $$.

well again i will reply. 1.5 x .250 DOM under my rig would not last long.

sounds like you have your heart set on your own ideas and don't really want the answer unless it is what you want to hear. so go build them and then after lots of abuse come back and let us know how they worked out.

Originally posted by camo
well again i will reply. 1.5 x .250 DOM under my rig would not last long.

sounds like you have your heart set on your own ideas and don't really want the answer unless it is what you want to hear. so go build them and then after lots of abuse come back and let us know how they worked out.

It's not that I am asking and don't like the answers. It's just that none of them have really answered my question, which I guess maybe I haven't made clear. The question is: Will bent and braced 1.5x.250, similar to in the above pics, hold up as well, better, or worse than straight DOM of a larger diameter?

My theory is that any material that is braced in more than one dimension will hold up better than something slightly larger than something that is just a straight stick sitting out in the open waiting to be bent with no bracing.

I imagine it will hold up better as smaller diameter tube is more difficult to dent than tube of a larger diameter and the same wall thickness. Smaller tube is easier to crease/fold than larger tube is, but I intend to offset/eliminate that risk by bracing it.

So do people agree or disagree with my theory? This is like pulling teeth!

J. J.

yep the way Wagoner machine makes those links is super strong, and 1/4 wall 1.5 OD probably won't dent, so you should be fine.

Here's an answer for ya. Since you want to build yours like Wagoner Machine does theirs, why don't you pick up the phone and just call the guys and ask them. Unless someone here has designed something like Wagoner, they aren't gunna know, so ask someone who does, the people who build them. They are the ones' with experience.
:rasta:

Originally posted by camo
...............1.5 x .250 DOM under my rig would not last long.

You DO literally break anything that is under your rig even if its labeled "bomb proof." :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by nightcrawler


You will literally break anything under your rig even if its labeled "bomb proof." :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

I used 1.5 x .250 DOM, along with a set of right and left hand threaded taps for the threads of the heims, and a bunch of right and left hand threaded nuts to tack weld to the tube to use as a guide for the tap.

All in all I have about $200 worth of tools / materials left over (hex nuts and taps)

If you want it I can sell it to you. The left hand threeaded tap has a couple small chips in it, but all in all they still work really well, and will hold the heims really well, as long as the implement heims will hold up anyway....

Originally posted by ECF
Here's an answer for ya. Since you want to build yours like Wagoner Machine does theirs, why don't you pick up the phone and just call the guys and ask them. Unless someone here has designed something like Wagoner, they aren't gunna know, so ask someone who does, the people who build them. They are the ones' with experience.

Amen

Originally posted by foley I used 1.5 x .250 DOM, along with a set of right and left hand threaded taps for the threads of the heims, and a bunch of right and left hand threaded nuts to tack weld to the tube to use as a guide for the tap.

All in all I have about $200 worth of tools / materials left over (hex nuts and taps)

If you want it I can sell it to you. The left hand threeaded tap has a couple small chips in it, but all in all they still work really well, and will hold the heims really well, as long as the implement heims will hold up anyway....

:confused:

Nah. I'll pass. I'm sticking with soa on 44044 springs all around for simplicity.:D

Originally posted by nightcrawler


:confused:

Nah. I'll pass. I'm sticking with soa on 44044 springs all around for simplicity.:D
I'm going to agree, leafs work, well well and best are simple and even better cheap$, too cheap for me to swap, sure coil overs are cool, but to much $ and lots more work;)

Originally posted by ECF
Here's an answer for ya. Since you want to build yours like Wagoner Machine does theirs, why don't you pick up the phone and just call the guys and ask them. Unless someone here has designed something like Wagoner, they aren't gunna know, so ask someone who does, the people who build them. They are the ones' with experience.
:rasta:

Best advice yet. :smokin:

I called and talked to Casey. (Cool guy. I bought my doubler from him a while back.) He says that they used to use 2x.250 straight and always broke them. Now they have all switched over to 1.75x.188 bent and braced, as seen in the above pics, and he says that none of them can bend or break them. He says he would use something thicker but their home-made bender won't bend it. He thinks that my 1.5x.250 will work great, so I'm going with it.

J. J.

PS: Just for you nay-sayers, I asked him what he thought about using the tractor joints. He says that he has a friend using the big ones, like I am using (3.5" OD) and they have been using them for a long time with no problems. Casey said that they are tough as hell. Just a little noisy. :D

I run 1.5" 250 wall DOM.... both lowers are bent... this is on a sami. Since I just roll the link over after its bent and just let it bend the other way I could give a crap about bent links. I have seen stuff bend that was (BOOMPROOF) so I think there gonna bend no matter what. ANT from SRC is changing his tractor joints out for real hiems by the way... he bent the tractor hiem before the link.

If its a heavy rig... get your links out of the way and run heavy wall DOM Or sewer pipe...

If its a light rig run 1.5-250 wall and get um out of the way...cause if there in the way they will bend no matter what if your gettin it hard in the stones.

mike-

I used 1.5" Schedule 80 pipe works great and its cheap:D

I used 2" x .120 for the lower links and bent 1 coming out of the Frame Twister. It dented the tube more than bent it, but it did bend. I had run .120 lowers for a year with no problems.

I replaced that lower link with a 1.91 od, Sch 80 pipe link, and bent it bad. No dent this time, just the whole tube bent.

The new lower links are now 2" and approx .370.

The upper wishbone has never had a problem, it's 2" x .120.

The truck weighs 6000lbs and has 560 lb/ft and a doubler. I've never bent the links from torque, just from landing on rocks and logs.

Tim.

DESIGN YOUR LINKS TO MATCH THE BENGING MOMENT AND YOU WON"T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS BENDING LINKS

Originally posted by patooyee


It's not that I am asking and don't like the answers. It's just that none of them have really answered my question, which I guess maybe I haven't made clear. The question is: Will bent and braced 1.5x.250, similar to in the above pics, hold up as well, better, or worse than straight DOM of a larger diameter?

My theory is that any material that is braced in more than one dimension will hold up better than something slightly larger than something that is just a straight stick sitting out in the open waiting to be bent with no bracing.

I imagine it will hold up better as smaller diameter tube is more difficult to dent than tube of a larger diameter and the same wall thickness. Smaller tube is easier to crease/fold than larger tube is, but I intend to offset/eliminate that risk by bracing it.

So do people agree or disagree with my theory? This is like pulling teeth!

J. J.

What you ask for is not easy to accurately determine, without knowing the bar spacing in the LCA design. It's easy to state that the two parallel tubes spread apart will be stronger than a single slightly fatter tube, but only perpendicular to the axis where the tubes are spread (up/down in the picture).

The localized impact resistance is not much more than with the single tube if the impact is centered between the brace and ends. A shear panel sheet brace, between the tubes, will improve the overall strength from this type of failure. This reduces the impact to a bar ding, not a bar bend.

The strength to ward off a side impact is not much more than with a single tube. Two shear panel sheet braces, side by side boxing of the parallel tubes, as a skin will improve the overall strength from a side impact failure. Again, the failure can be reduced to a ding, with little or no true length change, as opposed to something that plays hell with the post failure alignment.

While your theory is leading to correct gross assumptions, idealizing the structure for strength and weight may take a little more thought (and quite a few more weld inches). Why buy it if you can build it better?

Happy Trails!

Funny you should mention that. I was thinking of closing the whole thing in with 3/16 or 1/4 plate.

J. J.

Originally posted by patooyee
Funny you should mention that. I was thinking of closing the whole thing in with 3/16 or 1/4 plate.

J. J.

Don't waste time or $$$, or unnecessary weight, 10 GA sheet is more than adequate.

Happy Trails!