So I went for a dry run around the neighborhood this morning with Humpty (98 TJ, detroit f/r)flat towed behind the Turd (Ford F-250). What a freakin' nightmare. I can't steer for
SHIT and the truck is all over the place.

FWIW, the jeep tranny was in 1st, the t-case in neutral and the key on on,
just like the manual states. I'm guessing that the lack of hubs and the
front locker is causing the problem, b/c when I unhooked the jeep, the front
locker was good and bound.

Do I need hubs to flat tow? Or will discoing the front driveshaft help? I
can't imagine that this should be nearly this scary.

Seth (I've towed boats tons, and the Jeep on a trailer, but never flat
towed)

Yes, you need to have locking hub's on the front. You want those wheels to be free to follow your tow rig. Pulling the front shaft won't do it, the axles and locker will still be turning and binding. I'm not sure I would keep it in first gear either unless it has something to do with getting oil to the rear output. You may want to do two things, install front hubs so you can freewheel and drop the rear driveline. It only takes a few minutes and then your 100% sure. Don't forget to turn the key so the colume is unlocked but not to the 'on' position. You don't want juice going through everything and running down the battery.

[ 09-23-2001: Message edited by: FearMe ]

FearMe is correct. I wouldnt spend the $$$ on the hub kit for the TJ. Waist of money. If you cant afford a 44 for the front then just get a dolly for the front tires and pull the rear d-line.

uhhhh.. buy a trailer? <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

I have a buddy that flat tows his Jeep with the auto hubs. First, get that thing out of gear!!! Put it in Neut with the key on. Second, discon the drive shaft from the fron axle. Third, how far apart is the spread on your tow bar? If it's very narrow the Jeep will push your tow vehicle all over the place.

Hope this helps.

a dolly or trailer, deont spend the $ on the hubs for that 30

If it don't mess with the computer, why not pull the battery cable, then you don't have to worry about the battery running down in the "on" position, and you don't have to worry about the steering locking.

I tow my YJ all over hell and back behind my motorhome , transfer case and trans in neutral , and I have a Smittybilt towbar .
Never have had the Jeep cross up on me.
Locker in front spinning the front driveshaft at 70 mph will probably not do the transfer case any good.

Ok. No chance of hubs or trailer in my future. But I need to make this work.

Will disconnecting the front driveshaft have any effect?

Originally posted by sethmark:
<STRONG>Ok. No chance of hubs or trailer in my future. But I need to make this work.

Will disconnecting the front driveshaft have any effect?</STRONG> it was stated above that it wont make a difference cuz the locker is still engaging teh axels. you need a dolly for the front and remove rear dline in your case! jiMMy

Removing the front driveline should help. Even thought the locker is still there, it won't be under any load, so it'll ratchet easily for cornering.

Worst case, even if I'm wrong, you just wasted 10 minutes taking off your front driveline. Best case, it'll work better and you'll be able to tow.

Free "fixes" are always what I try first. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Maybe I'm speaking out the wrong hole here, but the locker should have no effect on the steering with or without a driveshaft - there's no force on it to engage it. The only way it could effect the steering is if it's bound.

Paul

Originally posted by nasvik:
<STRONG>Maybe I'm speaking out the wrong hole here, but the locker should have no effect on the steering with or without a driveshaft - there's no force on it to engage it. The only way it could effect the steering is if it's bound.

Paul</STRONG>

Kinda what I thought....disconnect the drive shaft and see what happens. Also put it in neutral.

Ok. I solved the steering problem by pulling the front DS.

No handling problems... except the damn DS still spins. Is neutral actually neutral???

Originally posted by sethmark:
<STRONG>Ok. .

. Is neutral actually neutral???</STRONG>

I don't think the 231 has "true" neutral? I have always thought you need to disconect thr rear shaft also for long tows...

Originally posted by sethmark:
<STRONG>Ok. I solved the steering problem by pulling the front DS.

No handling problems... except the damn DS still spins. Is neutral actually neutral???</STRONG>

Seth, I drove to a trail ride with the front shaft tied up. I removed it from the diff.
It was still connected to the 231.

The t case was in 2 high. No spinning of the shaft.

But, one day i had my jeep on a lift and in 2 wheel drive the front tires spun????

WTF I thought. is that 2 wheel drive? Yep.

My under standing of the pos 231 is there is no true neutral. this means both shafts on a tj have to be removed to flat tow....

told you the 231 sucked. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Has anyone besides Seth read the freakin' manual regarding towing? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Test: leave your transmission in gear, put Jeep on jackstands. By hand, turn driveshaft in each of the settings of the t-case. Yes.... there's a true neutral. At least with my TJ.

Paul (has a spare 231 to play with)

I have towed my 1998 TJ on all fours quite a bit. Put the t-case in neutral and key to first click. No problems. I have ARB so that is the only difference. You do not have to d/c the drivelines.

The only thing I can think of is your lockers or you didn't turn the key so that the front wheels can turn properly.

Crowdog

Originally posted by DRM:
<STRONG>uhhhh.. buy a trailer? <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

One of the nice things about flat towing is you can tow until you get to the trail, unhook and then wheel the tow rig in and the jeep. With the the small camper, with the carpet kit, I hate going back to the tent. Take day trips from there in the jeep. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

I would take both shafts off. I think you will not get the proper lube for the TC if the shafts are spinning in neutral.

Originally posted by CHOKE:
<STRONG>I would take both shafts off. I think you will not get the proper lube for the TC if the shafts are spinning in neutral.</STRONG>

Choke - Read your friggin' owner's manual! <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Paul

ive always flat towed with no probs.never towed a tj before but heres what i do.
put the tansfer in neutral, the tranny dont matter if its in gear or not with the x-fer in N. it wont turn.
i always disco the rear shaft on more than a short trip, and unless you want to disco the front shaft get manual hubs. whether the manual says its ok or not.
i have never had probs towing this way, ive had my scout to oregon twice and the cruiser all the way to washington state.
good luck <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by sethmark:
<STRONG>Ok. No chance of hubs or trailer in my future. But I need to make this work.

Will disconnecting the front driveshaft have any effect?</STRONG>

Please read this again:

Originally posted by FearMe:
<STRONG>Yes, you need to have locking hub's on the front. You want those wheels to be free to follow your tow rig. Pulling the front shaft won't do it, the axles and locker will still be turning and binding. I'm not sure I would keep it in first gear either unless it has something to do with getting oil to the rear output. You may want to do two things, install front hubs so you can freewheel and drop the rear driveline. It only takes a few minutes and then your 100% sure. Don't forget to turn the key so the colume is unlocked but not to the 'on' position. You don't want juice going through everything and running down the battery.
</STRONG>

FearMe explained it very well. The ONLY thing you can do, to help this, is to put it on a dolly, trailer, or do the hub conversion.

I put two new axles with lockers, under my Jeep. I do have the same problem as you, when trying to flat tow. Therefore, I put it on a trailer, or drive it, to where I am going to wheel, now.

The only other option, is to use either a cable locker (OX), or an air locker (ARB), these completely disconnect, with your control.

But you didn't read what I wrote. Pulling the front driveshaft off of the pinion solved the steering issue.

However, I can't hang the DS, b/c it turns with the T-case in neutral and the rear DS still connected.

So... I can either run it in 2wd and the tranny in neutral OR pull front and rear DS.

Those are my ONLY options, cuz I'm not spending dollar one on a trailer, a dolly, hubs, or a new front axle.

Weird, I'm having exactly the same issue right now, except I have a YJ with TJ front axleshafts (no disconnect), and I have an ARB, so no steering problems. But I am worried about drivetrain bindup, because, like Seth's, my front transfer output is locked with the rear when in neutral.
BTW, my YJ manual says to tow with both in N.
BTW, I imagine the fore/aft bindup caused Seth's locker to engage.
BTW, a front ujoint went out after flat towing for first time with TJ axles. Coincidence?

I heard that Tri-county has a true neutral fix, I'm gonna call.

Hey Seth,

Doesn't the TJ D30 always turn, just like the XJ D30 ?
If so, locking hubs or pulling the front shaft is the only solution as you found out <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

You could also buy an Atlas 2 and put both ends in neutral, but this is only good for 300 miles max, so locking hubs in the rear would be required too.
Dunno if I like the idea of that strength - wise ?

Probably cheaper to buy a trailer though <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

DS

Alright, Tri-county says Tera has a true neutral conversion kit, Tera says no kit but the 4-to-1 kit has true neutral.

M.I.T. of El cajon, CA does the N conv. ("new sector plate", getting back to me on cost and whether it can be a DIY.

This is making it hard to resist popping for the 4 to 1 kit, tho 130:1 may be overkil...

BTW, I'm still a little confused, since I'm pretty sure this bindup occurs with stock TJs, yet they still recommend flat towing in the manual.

Dion

I think the whole heart of this problem is that Seth's got a YJ 231 from before the days of the true neutral <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

hi seth...

another thing nobody has mentioned which will make a difference with flat towing is the height of your hitch. i know it sounds a little strange, but it does matter with the "pushing you all over the road" issue. i flat tow my flattie all the time. it's different, yes (full float detroit rear with hubs, front hubs, automatic tranny in park, 18 in neutral...) but the hitch height will affect the fore/aft movement...

That's what I was wondering Mike, or if his Tera Low didn't have true neutral.
??

I solved the issue by pulling the pinion ends opf both driveshafts.

Steers great. I finished the wireing today and am ready to go for a long drive.

More coming soon.

Seth (Atlas is at the end of the flat tow to LA. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by sethmark:
<STRONG>(Atlas is at the end of the flat tow to LA. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Can I have your 231 then? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

No. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Its sold.

How about this. disco the rear shaft, leave the tranny in gear and tcase in 2wd. That should insure the rear ds doesn't spin. The front ds will still spin, but it won't be connected to the rear ds or the tranny so it shouldn't bind. Not sure about oiling the tcase though. I would think it would be OK though. The front output would be submerged in oil. What do you think?

Originally posted by Grandpa_Jeep:
<STRONG>How about this. disco the rear shaft, leave the tranny in gear and tcase in 2wd. That should insure the rear ds doesn't spin. The front ds will still spin, but it won't be connected to the rear ds or the tranny so it shouldn't bind. Not sure about oiling the tcase though. I would think it would be OK though. The front output would be submerged in oil. What do you think?</STRONG>

I think its a good idea.. but not sure aobut the oiling. FWIW, its easiest to just do both at the same time, since both DS's use the same u-bolts.

So you guys have TJ axles no hubs and detroits in the front? doesn't that handle kinda wierd on the street, even in two wheel drive it seems like occasionally the locker would get bound up. I know in my bronco I have occasionally driven in 2wd with the front hubs locked (i have a detroit)and it seems to handle wierd. You guys put daily driver miles on like that? Or are these trail only jeeps?

Originally posted by sethmark:
<STRONG>No. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Its sold.</STRONG>

LOL! Hey, don't you need to change that sig? Something like "Hump Me Dump Me" <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

Somebody told me they changed the 231s to have true neutral around '95, so that would clear up some of the mystery.

Dion