Though I'd share this, ~ its a beauty.

Its a non-IC 392, bored .060 w/ 345 heads. Headers, TBI, HEI, and lots of little stuff.

way Cool

I want one

I like what that guy on BB is doing to his 392 mopar 413 pistons for 11 to 1 CR

roller cam and rockers :eek: :eek: :eek:

another

another

last

Originally posted by Snoopy
Though I'd share this, ~ its a beauty.

Its a non-IC 392, bored .060 w/ 345 heads. Headers, TBI, HEI, and lots of little stuff.

Cool :smokin: What TBI system are you using?

What's NON-IC???

That looks purty

yep thats sure is cute:D

Originally posted by Cliffhanger
What's NON-IC???



:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Cliffhanger
What's NON-IC???

That looks purty

NON IMPROVED COOLING!!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=635735

Nice engine, but you should have polished the 727 :D

I found last night, that my wire wheel on the grinder does a nice job of polishing the case of a 727.

Bling Bling :p

Originally posted by Cliffhanger
What's NON-IC???

That looks purty

Mostly it means it's prone to hot-spots under continual high-load conditions.

May/may not be more of a pinger because of it.

It also means you can bolt on the 345 heads to bump compression. :D

OTOH, at the cost of the bigger (and sodium filled!) 392 valves.. the smaller valves should work better at lower RPM though.

Easy way to tell - all SV engines have the water tubes come out of the waterpump and into the heads - EXCEPT the IC392 (and ONLY the 392 came in IC) which had the water tubes go into the block, just below the heads.

I've opted to build a 406 IC392 for my Travelette - 1) I plan on loading the thing down, and 2) the IC blocks have the correct motor mount bosses for my '74, saving me the trouble of fabbing new mounts.

Hopefully it won't ping like the 345 does..

Originally posted by TORC
Cool :smokin: What TBI system are you using?

We use the TurboCity model. Its the most copmlete and the best value - the entire TBI was $1350 w/ a SWEET fuel pump. How more complete it is over the Howell or ProJection? It comes stock closed loop, w/ knock sensor, and controls the timing via a 7-pin HEI system (which we make in house ~ we also make the 5-pins for carb engines).

But really, the TBI computer controls both spark and fuel delivery, therefore it takes care of the advance, fuel delivery under load, proper timing adjustment w/ this 10.5-11:1 compression 404 running on Av-gas and so forth. What is particularly nice about this system is that TurboCity custom burns a control chip for our engine specs...so it will work even better for this little performer.

Non-IC = non-improved cooling ~ meaning its an early 392, one that you could bolt 345 heads on and get 10:1 compression on. The whole engine was balanced and blueprinted and makes over 450 ft lbs of torque at 1500-2000 rpm. Then it mellows to a solid 400 ft lbs from 2000-4000 rpm, and slightly under that till the engine blows up.:D :p :) :D

Originally posted by Snoopy

Non-IC = non-improved cooling ~ meaning its an early 392, one that you could bolt 345 heads on and get 10:1 compression on. The whole engine was balanced and blueprinted and makes over 450 ft lbs of torque at 1500-2000 rpm. Then it mellows to a solid 400 ft lbs from 2000-4000 rpm, and slightly under that till the engine blows up.:D :p :) :D

Who built this fire-breather?

I always thought the 345 heads were only good for 9.5:1, and less if you use the composite head gasket and pistons with a shorter pin-to-crown distance.

I take it the block was 0-decked to bring the CR up into the 10+ range.

Originally posted by tsm1mt
Who built this fire-breather?

Brooks Racing Engines. The only SuperFlow Certified Test Dyno I know of, he builds mostly race engines (Indy, Drag, Nascar). But a while ago, I met him when he was a one man shop...and he's a good friend.


I always thought the 345 heads were only good for 9.5:1, and less if you use the composite head gasket and pistons with a shorter pin-to-crown distance.

Tell that to the guys who run them on 392s. But don't worry, we took care of that, yes he used the right head gasket, yes we knows how to mess with stuff and make it work. I'll be honest, I'm a suspension man ~ engines are Craig's thing (thats the owner of Brooks). I trust him impecably...when he sets it up, you know it's right. I have learned not to question him, I inquire, but never check up. It's kinda like telling lance how to wheel through Lil Sluice ~ there's just some things you don't do.


I take it the block was 0-decked to bring the CR up into the 10+ range.
The block was milled .012 to rid it of some nasty rust pitting, we used a NICE head gasket that was a bit thicker to compensate a bit...but the CRs still up there.

Needless to say, our first tank will be racing fuel...:smokin:

Originally posted by Snoopy


We use the TurboCity model. Its the most copmlete and the best value - the entire TBI was $1350 w/ a SWEET fuel pump. How more complete it is over the Howell or ProJection? It comes stock closed loop, w/ knock sensor, and controls the timing via a 7-pin HEI system (which we make in house ~ we also make the 5-pins for carb engines).

But really, the TBI computer controls both spark and fuel delivery, therefore it takes care of the advance, fuel delivery under load, proper timing adjustment w/ this 10.5-11:1 compression 404 running on Av-gas and so forth. What is particularly nice about this system is that TurboCity custom burns a control chip for our engine specs...so it will work even better for this little performer.

Non-IC = non-improved cooling ~ meaning its an early 392, one that you could bolt 345 heads on and get 10:1 compression on. The whole engine was balanced and blueprinted and makes over 450 ft lbs of torque at 1500-2000 rpm. Then it mellows to a solid 400 ft lbs from 2000-4000 rpm, and slightly under that till the engine blows up.:D :p :) :D
Hey Snoop,
Where is the knock sensor mounted on that thing?

Originally posted by Snoopy


We use the TurboCity model. Its the most copmlete and the best value - the entire TBI was $1350 w/ a SWEET fuel pump. How more complete it is over the Howell or ProJection? It comes stock closed loop, w/ knock sensor, and controls the timing via a 7-pin HEI system (which we make in house ~ we also make the 5-pins for carb engines).

But really, the TBI computer controls both spark and fuel delivery, therefore it takes care of the advance, fuel delivery under load, proper timing adjustment w/ this 10.5-11:1 compression 404 running on Av-gas and so forth. What is particularly nice about this system is that TurboCity custom burns a control chip for our engine specs...so it will work even better for this little performer.

Non-IC = non-improved cooling ~ meaning its an early 392, one that you could bolt 345 heads on and get 10:1 compression on. The whole engine was balanced and blueprinted and makes over 450 ft lbs of torque at 1500-2000 rpm. Then it mellows to a solid 400 ft lbs from 2000-4000 rpm, and slightly under that till the engine blows up.:D :p :) :D

Hey Snoop, nice combo. It will be interesting to see how it works out. Are you planning on using avgas exclusively or going to 92 octane after the engine is broke in? At 6000 feet I wouldn't be surprised if you could run a 10.5 CR on supreme with the timing backed off some. Let us know how the turbo city chip works out. Most guys I know haven't had good luck with theoretical chips and have had to try a bunch of chips before getting one that was useable. You might want to look at the new Projection commander TBI sometime. It has all the sensors, IAC, map, TPS, etc. and timing control and you can adjust it with a laptop. A big improvement over the DI systems.

Originally posted by Hammerlock


Hey Snoop, nice combo. It will be interesting to see how it works out. Are you planning on using avgas exclusively or going to 92 octane after the engine is broke in? At 6000 feet I wouldn't be surprised if you could run a 10.5 CR on supreme with the timing backed off some.

I'm running a 10.25:1 304 on 91octane with the occasional dose of Octane boost at around 4000ft and around 25deg static advance with no problems.

I'm too cheap to buy the 100+ octane race fuel at $5+/gal.

Originally posted by tsm1mt


....around 30deg static advance ....



This does not compute.

Originally posted by Hammerlock


This does not compute.

At idle, the timing mark on the balancer is OFF the scale on the timing cover.

Before any mechanical advance is added in.

The vac advance is not hooked up.

IIRC, the advance at idle is around 25 BTDC - not quite 30.

If I wanted to pony up for the better fuel, I'd run more..

Yes, the NAPA starter chugs a bit when I crank it over. :D But it sure runs good at this setting.

This is NOT in a heavy truck pulling a load - a "light weight" (4,000lbs) Scout used only for competition.

All of my other SV8s run somewhere between 8-14deg BTDC.

Originally posted by TORC
Where is the knock sensor mounted on that thing?

In the factory spot of course :D

Originally posted by tsm1mt


At idle, the timing mark on the balancer is OFF the scale on the timing cover.

Before any mechanical advance is added in.

The vac advance is not hooked up.

IIRC, the advance at idle is around 25 BTDC - not quite 30.

If I wanted to pony up for the better fuel, I'd run more..

Yes, the NAPA starter chugs a bit when I crank it over. :D But it sure runs good at this setting.

This is NOT in a heavy truck pulling a load - a "light weight" (4,000lbs) Scout used only for competition.

All of my other SV8s run somewhere between 8-14deg BTDC.

Are you sure you aren't getting some off idle ping? I would back the initial timing off to 15 deg max and rework the mechanical curve. This will give you the same off idle power without being on the border of detonation. The thing about detonation is that you can't hear it until it gets heavy. Some engines with race cams use upwards of 20 deg static without ping, but they have a lot of overlap which bleeds off the compression. I'm sure you don't have much overlap with a 304 cam. This is sounding too much like bb.org. Just trying to help.

Originally posted by Hammerlock


Are you sure you aren't getting some off idle ping? . The thing about detonation is that you can't hear it until it gets heavy.

Umm, Hammer...

Off-idle ping??? You OBVIOUSLY have never seen the man race. Lil' Devil goes from a warm up idle (at 1200 rpm :D) to metal to the pedal, thing to the floor WOT for 20 minutes. I'm pretty good @ detecting ping (had to be in a former life), and there is no ping. There's only one person on this planet with all the specs to that motor, and he ain't telling.

Originally posted by The Mick


Umm, Hammer...

Off-idle ping??? You OBVIOUSLY have never seen the man race. Lil' Devil goes from a warm up idle (at 1200 rpm :D) to metal to the pedal, thing to the floor WOT for 20 minutes. I'm pretty good @ detecting ping (had to be in a former life), and there is no ping. There's only one person on this planet with all the specs to that motor, and he ain't telling.

ROFL! :D :D


Are you sure you aren't getting some off idle ping? I would back the initial timing off to 15 deg max and rework the mechanical curve. This will give you the same off idle power without being on the border of detonation. The thing about detonation is that you can't hear it until it gets heavy. Some engines with race cams use upwards of 20 deg static without ping, but they have a lot of overlap which bleeds off the compression. I'm sure you don't have much overlap with a 304 cam. This is sounding too much like bb.org. Just trying to help.

John Comer built this 'mill, the recurved distributor, and timed it.

The cam is an Isky 262/262 grind.

IIRC, disty runs 10deg of mechanical advance, for a total advance of about 35deg. That is, assuming Mr.C was telling the truth at the time. :D


It's a fun little 304.. working on getting a 4bbl intake for it so I can get some more RPM out of it.. the 500cfm Holley runs out of air too soon. :(

Yeah, the 2300 has no top end. I would bet even a rpm limited stock 304 would make more power on the high end with a bigger carb despite that stupid formula everyone refers to. BTW: 500 cfm from a 2brl isn't the same as 500 cfm from a 4 brl. I think Tom knows what I'm talking bout. ;)

good info (http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/timing.htm)

Originally posted by Snoopy


In the factory spot of course :D

All right, just one more question. Was there already a plug in the block there that you Brook's was able to screw the knock sensor into? or did he have to drill a hole and tap it?

OK, after a trip out into the garage and peek under the hood, I would have to say that they took the block drain plug out and used that hole.

Snoop,

REGARDING:
The block was milled .012 to rid it of some nasty rust pitting, we used a NICE head gasket that was a bit thicker to compensate a bit...but the CRs still up there.
END QUOTE:

If this motor has been cc'd and really is 10.50-11:1 then that starter is not gonna do it. I dont see how the CR is that high with only that much milled off the block, and a thicker head gasket. The 345 heads compensate some but not that much or all of us would be running them for balls out Power. I see this is in a Scout 2 so I am guessing you didnt pony up for the motor for Snoopy. So How much this sucker cost? My guess is $3500-$4000 with out the FI factored in. Ya ought to talk that customer of yours into a Mean green with them Stans Tri Ys so he dont cook the starter. I mean if he is blowing all this Green stuff then why not get the best. It will crank over any static load engine with Higher CR. Go Mean Green Starter. 4.4 to 1 cranking, all ball bearing, etc etc

Tom,
I drove that grocery getter and man i dont remember it being that fast, I better drive it again this year to doulbe check it. I still wonder why all them people were saying I was the faster driver in your rig. They must think I race D-derby and grew up racing in the Gravel pits here at home...Oh wait I did...and i do drive dame fast...just ask the cops...oh wait thats a campfire i am buzzing buddy story for later...or possibley a propane fire this year.
:flipoff2:

Originally posted by The Fleckster
Snoop,

Tom,
I drove that grocery getter and man i dont remember it being that fast, I better drive it again this year to doulbe check it. I still wonder why all them people were saying I was the faster driver in your rig. They must think I race D-derby and grew up racing in the Gravel pits here at home...Oh wait I did...and i do drive dame fast...just ask the cops...oh wait thats a campfire i am buzzing buddy story for later...or possibley a propane fire this year.
:flipoff2:

I think when you drove it, Fleck, it was with the piston-slapping $100 junkyard mill. :D Back in the "Yes, only $1500 total into it.." days.

You can't quite add a zero to the end of that.. yet.. but it's closer to $15,000 than $1500 these days.

Or maybe you did run it once in 2000.. at that point, the distributor clamp was loose and the timing kept wandering. D'oh. Runs much better after Mr.C timed it..

Also, it's a rule - everyone drives my rig faster than me it seems. THEY don't have to fix it when it breaks!

First weekend it was together I ran it, "Hey, it's still together.. want to try, Blair?"

He came in with one tire and rim destroyed, lost all of the pulleys off the crank, motor smoking.. and he STILL beat my time.

*shaking head*

On the 500cfm 2bbl vs 500cfm 4bbl.. yep, the 4bbl would be more umph. Just waiting to get an intake machined properly to make it all work, and then I'm looking at a 600cfm 4bbl and a new spacer to make it all work. The 500cfm runs out of air at about 5300rpm/50mph at the back end of the 100 yard drags - and well in advance of the end of the track.

A 600cfm 4bbl should get me up past 6000rpm, where I want to be, making for faster times without buying bigger tires or going t higher (than 4.88) gears.

Maybe if Hooper can arrange to let us use the runways as a drag strip at NWBRU, Fleck, we could take it for a spin... it hooks up REALLY well on pavement. :D

FWIW: I used a stock GM starter on a 12:25-1 compression BBC without any problems. Also, GM used the same starters on their 11:1 compression engines of the 1960's. The computer that Turbo City is using probably backs the timing off to around 5 degree's of advance until the engine starts.

Originally posted by The Fleckster
Snoop,

I see this is in a Scout 2 so I am guessing you didnt pony up for the motor for Snoopy.
Why would I change the motor in Snoopy?!?! Actually it is getting some head work, a header, new alt and wiring, and I'm working on my machinist to convert me over to a 2bbl. manifold. But I think the 196 will stick around for a while. I'm just hoping to SQUEEZE some more umph out of it for the drive to the trails.

So How much this sucker cost?
Plenty, but not as much as you think.


Ya ought to talk that customer of yours into a Mean green with them Stans Tri Ys so he dont cook the starter.
He insisted that we keep the old, wore out starter. The thing BARELY turns the motor over, it's like Crrrrrrraaannnnkkk. (rest) Crrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnkkkkkkkkk. (done). Actually I was going to contact Mean Green about some 'options' for when the customer decides that this used (but clean) starter doesn't make the cut. Whatcha got in stock? email me.

D

So spill the beans, How much Deniro are we talking $2800-$3000

I will send ya some info on the MGs when i get that check;)

Yea Chevy did alot of stupid things, but they wernt always thinking. The stocke starters sometime hold up, othertimes dont. Too much for me to chance when i am in the Back Country and need to start the rig, especially the auto.

Originally posted by The Fleckster
So spill the beans, How much Deniro are we talking $2800-$3000

It came out to about $3K and some change w/ balancing, porting and milling the heads...but then again, everything is new on the inside.

Sweet motor.

How bout the valve springs?

Cam?

Care to tell us about that HEI Dizzy you are selling? Is it a Stock GM type HEI on a Scout dizzy or is it a hopped up HEI like the MSD or Mallory units that you can buy to upgrade a truck that already has the HEI ignition. Looks very nice.... Do tell....

-Wes
:flipoff2:

Originally posted by YellowIH
Care to tell us about that HEI Dizzy you are selling? Is it a Stock GM type HEI on a Scout dizzy or is it a hopped up HEI like the MSD or Mallory units that you can buy to upgrade a truck that already has the HEI ignition. Looks very nice.... Do tell....

-Wes
:flipoff2:
http://www.dandcextreme.com/image/hei1.jpg
The units are true GM HEI out of pre-80 V8s (5-pin). They are modified w/ a new shaft, a machined adapter, Scout gear (bottom of shaft), new cap, vacume advance, and various other parts. Its a plug and play type thing. I personally love them ~ my t-all has been running one for over 5 years without any problems or complaints. In fact, the thing has worked like a champ while I've ran it. Its got tons of power for a 186K mile old 392, starts no matter what the weather is like, I can get upgraded performance parts for it (or just replace the stock ones) at any store without having to ask the question "is it a holley or prestolite' AND, most important to me, even with my semi-agressive driving and the tank-like construction of a 74 travellal, I get about 14 mpg on the highway. I was keeping track of the mileage on the street but decided that it was so close to what I was getting on the highway that it wasn't worth the effort.

The one in the pictures above has been converted to 7-pin to enable computer control of the timing as well as the TBI.

So what's the low-down?

I get $350 for the conversion. It includes a rebuilt GM HEI distributor, with all the custom machining/adapters needed to fit it onto your engine (literally plugs right in). I also provide a new water neck base ~ as we have to clearance it a little to fit. We will need you to send us your old/current distributor as well as your current waterneck (we don't need them now, but after you get the HEI installed - we will ask that you put your old parts back into the box we send you and use the UPS shipping label to send it back ~ yes we'll provide a UPS shipping label so you don't need to pay for return shipping.

There are a few pictures of the system on my site: http://www.dandcextreme.com/ Click on the HEI link.

There will be an $80 deposit required which will be refunded immediately after we receive the old parts back. The problem is that we need the old distributor as well as the old waterneck for future HEI conversions. We've already exhausted all our spare distributors/waternecks in the half dozen we've sold ~ so we really need yours back.

D

I'd need new plug wires as well right? The GM cap is different from the stock SII IIRC from the pics...

I currently have a Holley dizzy with the pertronics kit in it and a Jacob's Omni ignition....is the HEI really an upgrade for me?

Does a GM HEI have points to adjust or any of that type stuff??

I know...DAN...

Thanks,
Wes
:D

I have run a HEi on my 345 in my Terra for about 5 years and love it i avarage 14-16 MPG with it with a 4-speed, 4.56's and 36" tires this is on the highway. I alos just put one on a buddies 79 345 Miadas traveler and he can't belive the diffenrce in strating and power. Its easy to modifiy with performance parts i have a 60,000 volt coil, an MSD control module, i like the idea that if i need parts i don't have to wait days to get them order in. I didn't get mine from Snoopy i got mine from Willis Green for $200.00 he charges $250.00 now plus your old IH Dist, he has been building these since the 70's for just about any thing (Fords, Mopar, Opels, ETC..) and he has about 3 IH trucks that have had them on them since the 70's.

Hey Terra-izzer,
I thought that i heard Willis Green Died and his old number belongs to some older lady who gets pissed when you call looking for willis?

Price wise $250 plus shipping both ways (total $275 or so)is a fair and reasonable price for stock parts. I would think $350-$400 if it was a new Mallory/MSD/whatever other brand makes them distributer with HOT parts.

I have been thinking about a similar approach ever since Ken Farmer from BB and IHC digest got one 5-6 years ago. I want to take an MSD new "HEI" distributer and modify it to work in the SV motor. That way my whole ignition system is MSD and not pieced together.

What do ya think of them apples.

I like the idea of the HEI but I do not like the price....a MSD HEI dist cost that much and it already has all the goodies in it and ready to go from Summit.....$350 for a stock GM HEI dist is to much for me right now....but I would like to have one for the ease of parts and technology upgrade...plus it would clean under the hood a little.

:flipoff2: