What do I need to run hy steer on my waggy axle? I did a search and didn't find anything. What kind of knuckles to use and where to get the arms or could I make them, And can I use the stock tie rod and drag link? Pics would help. Thanks <IMG SRC="smilies/blush2.gif" border="0">

Wax, lots and lots of wax... <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Can anybody help me? <IMG SRC="smilies/blush2.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by fatkid:
<STRONG>Wax, lots and lots of wax... <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

FATKID
Official POR Smart-Ass <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

You need both arms and a passenger side flat top knuckle. Ask Shaker on this board - he has made a bunch of hysteer arms and is going to make mine.

I hi-steered my waggy front axle. I used a pre-79' waggy passenger-side knuckle because it has a flat top. I took it to a local machine shop and had it drilled and taped for the hi steering arm. I bought my hi-steering arm from avalanche engineering. Its there new design not the old one. As far as steering draglink goes. I had M.O.R.E. make some custom length 3/4" heim jointed chromoly steering rods. Put it all together and walla!

http://home.off-road.com/~rockbuggy/P1010028.JPG

http://home.off-road.com/~rockbuggy/P1010029.JPG

A picture of the arm from Avalanche:

http://home.off-road.com/~rockbuggy/imga0090.jpg

Am I able to use the stock tie rod and drag link? How much does the arm cost$? Thanks

The particular arm in the above pictures from Avalanche costs $149. In my F-250/YJ D44 project, I opted to go with the cheaper/flat $65 dollar one due to the fact that my draglink and tie-rod are going to end up being parallel and hopefully won't me maxing out the heims (SOA, YJ springs), and a D60 is hopefully in the future(within a year).

Rockbuggy, is the arm pictured in the bottom pic the one on your axle? If so then the cone washers are on the bottom upside down? <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> Yikes! And why didn't you put the tie-rod up there too?

$150 for that arm is nuts... talk to Bob Roggy, he makes kickass arms for less than that. Parts Mike makes em' for cheap but IMO his arms suck (too low and angled in too far).

Originally posted by finder_87:
<STRONG>What do I need to run hy steer on my waggy axle? I did a search and didn't find anything. What kind of knuckles to use and where to get the arms or could I make them, And can I use the stock tie rod and drag link? Pics would help. Thanks <IMG SRC="smilies/blush2.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Here is a pic of my hysteer setup and the hysteer arms that I used. I was able to get both hysteer arms for $180 each. I used Chevy Flat top knuckles. You need to be carefull... if the hysteer arm is too long... your steering box might not have enough "throw" to turn the wheels from full lock to full lock.

Yogi

<img SRC="http://home.earthlink.net/~azttora1/solidaxlefrontview.JPG" height=336 width=448>

<img SRC="http://home.earthlink.net/~azttora/dana44outer.JPG" height-284 width=406>

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: yogiaz ]

Call up part's mike at (530) 885-0673. He hooked me up for my waggy axle. Tell him Bob with the Tacoma sent you. He'll sell you the flattop knuckles, hy-steer arms, balljoints and anything else you want.

What Eric said dude!

Like, if it is setup for studs and cones, why does it appear to be held on the knuckle with bolts?

Not to mention the "slope" is going the wrong way.

I'm afraid you have the wrong side arm on there, upside down, which makes for a very unsafe mounting.

The strength of the mounting done properly is from the friction between arm and knuckle, with the cone washers there to provide a zero clearance fit around the studs so no play can develop.

If it's upside down - the only contact is the tops of the cones (which protrude from the arm - at least they should) which means very litttle surface area

Please check this out

<IMG SRC="smilies/blush2.gif" border="0"> Actual Bill looking at it closer it appears to be a different (correct) arm. My bad. It's angled the correct way btw.

I've heard of guys running them upside down though and that's just scary!

Bolts work, but studs are definitely better.

Eric, My bad on the slope. Glad to hear it's not what we worried!

$149 is pretty criminal though...especially since the TRE/Draglink holes are not even tapered.

they look pretty though!

Hey Rock Buggy, you mounted your arms correctly! When you use bolts you do need to check torque occasionally, as they will loosen more easly than studs. If you would like to replace your bolts with studs I will gladly ship them to you. If you have any questions please call, I appreciate your buisness. Eric, I'am not quite sure what you have against the high angle arm? It is far superior to the arm your pushing, and Avalanche offers a less expensive arm that works as well. Clifton <IMG SRC="smilies/jeep2.gif" border="0">

Who has the best (for the money)Hi steer arms?

Originally posted by BRUISER-42:
<STRONG> Eric, I'am not quite sure what you have against the high angle arm? It is far superior to the arm your pushing, and Avalanche offers a less expensive arm that works as well.</STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0"> I think you're misunderstanding me when I said "angled in too far." I was referring to location of the TRE relative to the ball joint, ie. Ackerman angle. I saw a pair of Parts Mike arms and the TRE was actually closer to the center of the vehicle than the ball joint <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> There was several inches of clearance between the TRE and the tire. The ones I got from Roggy are sweet, they provide as much ackerman as possible.

I'm guessing you're referring to the way you cancel out the machined angle on the knuckle? I actually think it's very cool that you do that, even the GM arm corrects for that angle. After looking at those knuckles long and hard though I saw no mechanical advantage to the surface angle on the knuckle (helps for compression, hurts for tension) so when I machined my knuckles I machined them perpendicular to the wheel mounting surface, thus no corrective angle is necessary.

$150 IS a lot of coin for that single piece of steel.

That said, I'd like to stop by your shop sometime Clifton <IMG SRC="smilies/beer.gif" border="0">

Hey BRUSIER-42, that sounds cool, Ive been meaning to change those bolts to studs but at the time of installing the arm I was unable to find any studs so I just used grade-8 bolts. How much do you want for some studs? E-mail me at: TCarrica@rcbos.org

So why are arms so expensive? I've noticed that all x-over steering is expensive and it doesn't seem that complicated or to involve any really complicated parts.

Milan

Originally posted by FattyCBR:
<STRONG>So why are arms so expensive? I've noticed that all x-over steering is expensive and it doesn't seem that complicated or to involve any really complicated parts.

Milan</STRONG>

I dont know why? I got two hysteer arms for what the other guy paid for one. And my steering setup works great and is extreamly strong... and drives like a charm.

I always wonder why people go with only one hysteer arm and only move the draglink above the springs. Why not go ahead and buy two so that you can move the tie rod up above the springs also??? Seems like its the best thing to do.

Yogi

I dont know why there so expensive, Im sure it has something to do with hardened steel used and the machine work.
I do know is id rather buy one from a company i can trust rather than make one on my own and then have it break. When it comes to steering stuff im willing to spend the extra cashola to have it done right...

Thats why I got mine from Avalanche. I've seen there rigs at comp's and they really hammer down on there stuff, never breaks!

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Rockbuggy ]

Then I have a question for Clifton or Rock-bugy.

If you use bolts instead of studs with the cone washers do you understand the function of the cone washers and how do you compensate for the lack of it?

I'll help - the steering arm obviously experiences continued cylcical loads that place the mounting devices (bolts or studs) in shear load. ( I realize the strength of the joint is primarily achieved by the friction between the mating surfaces - none-the-less the fasteners still experince these loads - as evidenced by them loosening) SAE bolts are not designed to be loaded in shear, not to mention are not manufactured to close enough specs to allow a tight enough fit so that play will not develop and they will not begin to ovall out the hole. Not to mention, drilling holes is (super technicaly) not the proper way to achieve an exact dimension hole - it should be rough drilled and then reamed to final size. So if bolts are used, holes should be reamed, and proper shear bolts (like AN - can't quote a number off the top of my head) should be used. This is expensive and rare and more difficult, so GM came up with the ingenious solution of using a stud with a split cone washer, so that as the nut tightens, the cone cinches down and provides the required zero clearance fit while still allowing use of SAE grade/spec hardware.

You can use bolts, but you have to use the right kind, or do something else to compensate (like using inteference fit locating dowels). the very fact that you have to constantly re-torque the bolts shows the flaw in the design.

Where can I get some studs and who makes cheap but good arms? Thanks <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

GM part numbers:

Stud
3965317
Adapter (cone washer)
3965318

Tri County also sell a hardware kit.

Parts Mike and Bob Roggy seem to make good, well priced arms

Originally posted by BillaVista:
<STRONG>Bob Roggy seem[s] to make good, well priced arms</STRONG>

Roggy da man!

http://128.83.80.200/taco/liftarm.jpg

I don't know why most of the hi-steer arms for D44s are flat when you have to clear the springs with the drag link and tie rod like most other applications that use angled arms, Toys fer instance. This is a Roggy arm I'm using to get away from heim joints and spacers next to my flat arm with said heims and spacers.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: skank-the-sock-puppet ]

Originally posted by skank-the-sock-puppet:
<STRONG>Roggy da man!

http://128.83.80.200/taco/liftarm.jpg

I don't know why most of the hi-steer arms for D44s are flat when you have to clear the springs with the drag link and tie rod like most other applications that use angled arms, Toys fer instance. This is a Roggy arm I'm using to get away from heim joints and spacers next to my flat arm with said heims and spacers.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: skank-the-sock-puppet ]</STRONG>

So are you going with regular crossover now??

Originally posted by skank-the-sock-puppet:
<STRONG>Roggy da man!

http://128.83.80.200/taco/liftarm.jpg

I don't know why most of the hi-steer arms for D44s are flat when you have to clear the springs with the drag link and tie rod like most other applications that use angled arms, Toys fer instance. This is a Roggy arm I'm using to get away from heim joints and spacers next to my flat arm with said heims and spacers.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: skank-the-sock-puppet ]</STRONG>

How much was the roggy arm ? or arms i guess you got a matching pair ...

The tie rod stays above the springs and I'm using a TRE on the passenger arm that has an eye in it for the drag link TRE. From what the big kids tell me that set-up steers right nice.

The arms were $85 apiece. Anyone want some of the flat arms? I'm building up quite an assortment!

Originally posted by skank-the-sock-puppet:
<STRONG>The tie rod stays above the springs and I'm using a TRE on the passenger arm that has an eye in it for the drag link TRE. From what the big kids tell me that set-up steers right nice.

The arms were $85 apiece. Anyone want some of the flat arms? I'm building up quite an assortment!</STRONG>


if the flat arm's aren't drilled out for bolts to use heims, wouldn't the height of a tie rod end itself allow the draglink and tie rod to clear the springs. Or that seems to be what i've seen ...

How much do want per arm that you have?

if the flat arm's aren't drilled out for bolts to use heims, wouldn't the height of a tie rod end itself allow the draglink and tie rod to clear the springs. Or that seems to be what i've seen ...

Depednds a lot on the arch in the springs. with very flat spring - yes, but with arched springs over the axle - sometimes not

So do you need to balance spring clearance of your arm and clearing the oil pan with the cross over? I'm asking cause I'm about to put a downpayment down on a toy with a 350 and it looks like oil pan will interfere since it's already been beat to piss by the diff.

Milan

Those bent Roggy arms that are pictured above are the exact ones I'm using.

Definitely sweet.

I needed the bent arms with my YJ--2.5" SOA on my Waggy front (no reversal) with stock 6* caster.

Charly

<STRONG>
if the flat arm's aren't drilled out for bolts to use heims, wouldn't the height of a tie rod end itself allow the draglink and tie rod to clear the springs.</STRONG>

In the pic you can see that I have around an inch or so of spacers under the tie rod. It's also running a high misalingment heim with a necked ball which also lifts it some. I haven't measured the Chebby TRE's I have to go with the new arms, but I don't think they're as tall as the necked ball/spacer combo on there now.

<STRONG> How much do want per arm that you have?</STRONG>

For the flat arms I have that are drilled for heims I'd take $80 for the pair but I won't have the off the truck for a while since I still have to find the down time to make the swap. I also have a pair sitting on my bookcase that have the tapered holes for the knuckle mounting studs/cone washers but the front of the arms don't have any holes so they can be drilled for heims or tapered for TREs. I'd take $50 for the pair...

I was just wondering why you are selling your old arms?

Originally posted by BillaVista:
<STRONG>Then I have a question for Clifton or Rock-bugy.

If you use bolts instead of studs with the cone washers do you understand the function of the cone washers and how do you compensate for the lack of it?

I'll help - the steering arm obviously experiences continued cylcical loads that place the mounting devices (bolts or studs) in shear load. ( I realize the strength of the joint is primarily achieved by the friction between the mating surfaces - none-the-less the fasteners still experince these loads - as evidenced by them loosening) SAE bolts are not designed to be loaded in shear, not to mention are not manufactured to close enough specs to allow a tight enough fit so that play will not develop and they will not begin to ovall out the hole. Not to mention, drilling holes is (super technicaly) not the proper way to achieve an exact dimension hole - it should be rough drilled and then reamed to final size. So if bolts are used, holes should be reamed, and proper shear bolts (like AN - can't quote a number off the top of my head) should be used. This is expensive and rare and more difficult, so GM came up with the ingenious solution of using a stud with a split cone washer, so that as the nut tightens, the cone cinches down and provides the required zero clearance fit while still allowing use of SAE grade/spec hardware.

You can use bolts, but you have to use the right kind, or do something else to compensate (like using inteference fit locating dowels). the very fact that you have to constantly re-torque the bolts shows the flaw in the design.</STRONG>

GM also used 4 - 1/2" studs with tapered nuts in counter sunk holes to lock the Dana 60 steering arm on.

"GM also used 4 - 1/2" studs with tapered nuts in counter sunk holes to lock the Dana 60 steering arm on."


This is what my D60 has. Just finished the hi-steer last night, but I'm concerned the way the kuckles are angled inward slightly.
Is this normal ?
I've seen it on several other 60s too.

What's the solution - machine a new arm to take the angle out or just live with it ?

Thanks

DS

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: DippStick ]

If I think I know what you are saying.......then, yes, it is normal for the knuckle to be angled inward, but I think I would need a visual to know what you are talking about.

On the D44 knuckles, the top of the knuckle is angled about 10* (guessing). Some companies make steering arms that have this angle milled out by the tie rod end to keep it level for better joint angle.

Originally posted by Cochese:
<STRONG>I was just wondering why you are selling your old arms?</STRONG>

-You- talkin' ta -me-? (In my best Diniro in Taxi Driver voice) If you -do- mean me, I'm selling them because I want to run stepped-up arms with TREs. I don't like running the heims and/or the spacers under them. The heims wear out to quickly and are too expensive to replace not to mention hard to find in BFE. They are safe enough with the safety washers on top. The spacers aren't the hot set-up from the point of putting more stress on the heim/arm junction.

how would i get up with this bob roggy to order a arm?

DOH!!!! I am wishing I'd seen this thread a while ago. I bought some Parts Mike arms and the the bores for the rod ends slopes inward 10 degrees a side, effectively using up a lot of the end travel just sitting in my shop. Those arms with the angle change are the way to go.