I asked this question in Doc's post in chit chat, but it didn't really get answered and I didn't want to hijack that thread.

How does an average Joe in Texas make it difficult for the government to know what you own? When you fill out a NICS paper and do the background check do they assume you bought the firearm if you pass? I don't want to own "illegal" firearms, but I have no problem being in the gray area.

At the moment I don't have anything that would scare anyone, all of my firearms are for hunting. I only have rifles and shotguns, but I plan on buying some tactical firearms at some point.

And the thought of them knowing what I own makes me uneasy anyway.

Chris

face to face sales

Unpossible. We know everything. What you do not know is that every firearm, under the cover of darkness back in 2003 was beamed aboard the Starship Reliant and implanted with a super duper, mini microchip. It beams all the information; make, model, location to a super Tandy 64 located somewhere high in the Kansas plains. That information is cross referenced with the FBI, CIA, DMV, ODOT, TXDOT and an unnamed agency located at 55 Skippy Macdoo Court in Omaha.

We know everything.

:D

Unpossible. We know everything. What you do not know is that every firearm, under the cover of darkness back in 2003 was beamed aboard the Starship Reliant and implanted with a super duper, mini microchip. It beams all the information; make, model, location to a super Tandy 64 located somewhere high in the Kansas plains. That information is cross referenced with the FBI, CIA, DMV, ODOT, TXDOT and an unnamed agency located at 55 Skippy Macdoo Court in Omaha.

We know everything.

:D
just for reference: I do not live at 55 Skippy Macdoo Court

:laughing:

person to person
only way

see face to face above

i have only purchased one gun otc and it was a python .357 that i did about 50 hours of engraving on for my wifes personal weapon of choice ( if her mouth somehow fails )

all others i built or bought under well understood conditions.

gotta be careful at gunshows by the way

atf is video taping and matching tag numbers to sales/

just for reference: I do not live at 55 Skippy Macdoo Court

:laughing:

I understand it's in a real bad part of Omaha, but the :cough:agency:cough: that runs the joint has some badass agent, last name Cobretti working out of there and no one fawks around with the place...................

So none of you ever buy new firearms?

Chris

I have purchased several firearms over the counter. I have come to the conclusion that someday the government is going to want all of our guns, and the more that they dont know, the better.

So none of you ever buy new firearms?

Chris

I've never gotten any brand new guns mainly because the quality of the type of guns I generally buy has gone way down in recent years. A good deal of my purchases have been face to face, the others have gone through FFL's.

I have not gotten my tinfoil hat on yet with the stuff that I own but if legislation keeps heading in the direction it is. I may staple the tinfoil onto my head.
:D

gotta be careful at gunshows by the way

atf is video taping and matching tag numbers to sales/

Link? I've not heard of this yet, though it would not surprise me.

I have only bought from dealers what I could not find elsewhere. For a long time, I wouldnt get CHL or buy any dealer guns because I wanted to stay under the radar.

I really dont think the government is gonna wake up one day and 'come take our guns'. That would be a huge undertaking, that would result in more than a few deaths, especially in the South.

If your that concerned about it, only buy FTF. Even if you got a few new ones, you could always claim you sold them to an individual.

Unless the FFL holder goes out of bussiness and turns in all of his 4473s, currently NO ONE but the dealler and buyer know what specifically was purchased.

"Oh Hello mr ATF agent. You're here to take my firearms because the Democrats finally butchered the 2nd amendment enough for you to take them?"
"No, sir. I sold my all my firearms a few years back when I needed the money."

Insert time to get search warrant = Time to hide/bury guns.

"Sure, Mr ATF agent, search the whole house for all I care, I told you I don't have any guns anymore."

Learn it, Love it.

Unless the FFL holder goes out of bussiness and turns in all of his 4473s, currently NO ONE but the dealler and buyer know what specifically was purchased.

I disagree. Bob's gunshop in Norfolk had to surrender his yellow forms to the BATF after they lost their appeal. They also have a general idea of who bought what from the NICS check. Why else do you think they ask the question "long gun or hand gun"? I have zero faith that they destroy those records. Zero.

If the company is still in bussiness they keep their records. UNLESS there is some sort of investigation.
During the annual records check the ATF does not record the content of the 4473s. They make sure that they are filled out completely but they don't copy down the info.
There is a law regarding multiple handgun purchases in a 5 day period which is the reason handgun/Longgun is asked.

Pete

If the company is still in bussiness they keep their records. UNLESS there is some sort of investigation.
During the annual records check the ATF does not record the content of the 4473s. They make sure that they are filled out completely but they don't copy down the info.
There is a law regarding multiple handgun purchases in a 5 day period which is the reason handgun/Longgun is asked.

Pete

Do you believe that the records are shredded or sent to the bitbucket every 5 days, every 31 days, or whatever number of days they are governed for?

There is a law regarding multiple handgun purchases in a 5 day period which is the reason handgun/Longgun is asked.


Like the "cash deposits over $X triggers an alarm" thing, or "can't buy more than Y/week" ? Never heard mention of it before.

And to the original topic... Tapco flats. Or in my case... CNC machinery and metal. Can't register or confiscate that which doesn't exist. :)

the last few I've acquired have either been face to face, or I've built them in my living room :D

Unless the FFL holder goes out of bussiness and turns in all of his 4473s, currently NO ONE but the dealler and buyer know what specifically was purchased.

Pete, there could be law at any time requiring that info to go nationwide.

Pete, there could be law at any time requiring that info to go nationwide.

that information should NEVER go "public". We cannot let that happen.

Edit: Even in California the government doesn't know what handguns you have, only the FFL holder keeps a copy of the paperwork.

How does an average Joe in Texas make it difficult for the government to know what you own?
Step 1:

Don't call attention to yourself by asking questions on the internet about how to hide you guns from the gubmint.

that information should NEVER go "public". We cannot let that happen.

Edit: Even in California the government doesn't know what handguns you have, only the FFL holder keeps a copy of the paperwork.

Every handgun sold through a licensed dealer in California is recorded and available for inquiries by LEO regarding ownership through DOJ. The handgun can be run by the serial number (telling you the last registered owner and address) or by the registered owner (telling you the make, model, caliber, and serial number). Long gun sales are recorded only by the seller who is required to maintain records for all sales that are reviewable at any time by ATF. The only way around the handgun database is to purchase the gun in a face to face private sale, which is illegal if you're caught. Or to steal it.

Step 1:

Don't call attention to yourself by asking questions on the internet about how to hide you guns from the gubmint.

Is step 2: Cut a hole in the box?




(reference to Justin T on SNL)


maybe just to hide the "guns" in.

:flipoff2:

Unless the FFL holder goes out of bussiness and turns in all of his 4473s, currently NO ONE but the dealler and buyer know what specifically was purchased.


you mean to say that all guns aren't registered!? :gasp: :shaking:

big misconception in this country, guns are not registered people! there is record kept of last known owner, no registration. they are simply checking your background to see if you are "FIT" to own a firearm.

now where did I put my foil hat.........


-Scott

you mean to say that all guns aren't registered!? :gasp: :shaking:

big misconception in this country, guns are not registered people! there is record kept of last known owner, no registration. they are simply checking your background to see if you are "FIT" to own a firearm.

now where did I put my foil hat.........


-Scott



but too many calls to see if your "fit" during a short amount of time can raise a red flag and get you a visit from your friendly BATF officer.

but too many calls to see if your "fit" during a short amount of time can raise a red flag and get you a visit from your friendly BATF officer.

BATFE "Agent". They are not officers as they are not law enforecement, they are merely tax collectors.

BATFE "Agent". They are not officers as they are not law enforecement, they are merely tax collectors.

Well somebody better remind them, because it appears that they forgot.

BATFE "Agent". They are not officers as they are not law enforecement, they are merely tax collectors.

While they serve under the Treasury Dept., I wouldn't say they aren't law enforcement. Their range of duties expends far beyond mere tax collection. :p

With the formation of the DHS after 911 BATFE was re-organized. They don't fall under Treasury anymore, but rather DOJ.

Pete

Do you believe that the records are shredded or sent to the bitbucket every 5 days, every 31 days, or whatever number of days they are governed for?


I don't know.
I know that in CO the CBI does the back ground checks. Its all done online. After one week I can no longer see past checks in my own account.
Are they maintaining them? I have no idea.
I know that some other states also do their own back grounds.
Some states rely on the FBI.
In either case the agency doing the NICS check is not the ATF.
Does the FBI give the names of those they run to toher agencies? I don't know. I know that according to the law they are not supposed to.

The manufacturers bound book, distributors bound book, dealers bound book, and the 4473 maintains a paper trail of the disposition of weapons. The intent is if a weapon is used in a crime the authorities can trace the last none owner. While many crimes are commited with stolen weapons, not all are.
I don't know how I feel about the paper trail.

If the ATF shuts down a business or they go out of business on their own, or the business is accused of "wrong doing" then their records get confiscated. otherwise the 4473 resides with the dealer.
personally I have a feeling that if the law gets changed and all dealers across the country are ordered to turn over their records there might be a rash of fire accidents. I feel very strongly about the Constitution and believe that every single person in this country that can legally own a firearm should. I believe that the more firearms that get sold and out into the publics hands the harder it will be to take the right to bear away. Let me also say that I believe that many people NEED training prior to even looking at a gun, but I don't think that should be regulated.

I got into business because I like guns and I think I can share my obsession with others.

if you are truely worried about it then yes do only FTF sales. Just be patient and watch all of the various gun forums and deals pop up all the time. I got a rifle just yesterday where the thing was less $$ then all the parts combined. i totally tear them down and rebuild them and then test them anyway, so why spend more $$ for a parts kit and receiver? Getting off track, you can find what you want.

Pete
Pete

Well somebody better remind them, because it appears that they forgot.

The NFA, which was the bulk of their work and the crown jewel of cases today, was created as a tax act. The forerunner of the ATF was created to employ the then unoccupied revenuers once prohibition was repealed. Can't have government employees be fired after their job ends so we'll make a new one for them to do! :shaking:

While they serve under the Treasury Dept., I wouldn't say they aren't law enforcement. Their range of duties expends far beyond mere tax collection. :p

As Pete states below they no longer fall under the US Treasury Dept. But riddle me this, )it may be semantics) what's the difference between enforcement and compliance? Is the ATF to enforce the law (which they determine) or are they compliance inspectors? Both? Has mission creep turned them into something they were not?


With the formation of the DHS after 911 BATFE was re-organized. They don't fall under Treasury anymore, but rather DOJ.

Pete

Correct.

But riddle me this, )it may be semantics) what's the difference between enforcement and compliance? Is the ATF to enforce the law (which they determine) or are they compliance inspectors? Both? Has mission creep turned them into something they were not?


I really wonder this myself.

I really wonder this myself.

It's a tough question, but a valid one IMO.

With the formation of the DHS after 911 BATFE was re-organized. They don't fall under Treasury anymore, but rather DOJ.

Pete

IIRC, the BATFE still retains ties to the Treasury Dept.