I am in the middle of drafting a letter to DC about my 97 4.0 whoe engine is on it's last legs. For those of you that know me and my rig, you know the problems that I have had with rough rounning engine and over heating. I have gone to the ends of the earth to solve these issues. At JV on Sledgehammer I had my last overheating episode and this time something in the engine was making a metal-on-metal scraping sound. Not good. Now I have a blown head gasket. Almost everytime I have crawled in 4 low I have overheated. I am not talking sitting in the box on a 100 degree day churing my tires for 20 minutes attempting to climb a ledge. I am just saying crawling in 4LO.

So now I face pulling and rebuilding my head (at 53K miles, mind you) and not knowing if something is wrong in my bottom end. I vote that DC owes me an engine and that my rig is a lemon.

I know that they will try to give me shit about the vehicle being modified (35s, custom suspension, steering, blah, blah) and therefore this caused engine issues. I have never modified anything in my engine other than a 3-core radiator and a flowcooler waterpump.

My question: What is the name of the court ruling that says that even if a vehicle is modified, manufacturers cannot cancel the whole warranty, just the part that is affected directly by the modification.

and:

Has anybody had to fight this? Any advice.

Thanks, I know that this isn't hardcore wheeling stuff, but I need some help from someone that has gone down this road before.

SeanP

your 97 truck is still under warranty?? i think you're most probably shit-outta-luck. if you really are still under warranty it should clearly say in your warranty that they have to cover it.

-Steve

Car is not under warranty. However the problems that I have had pertaining to rough idle and overheating are documented to have begun while the car still had 15K miles on it. Yes, it's modified, but the friggin engine has always had issues and I think DC needs to step up to the plate.

SeanP

it will come down to they have better attorneys than you legal fees will be more than the cost of a new motor i have fought and fought with them over a axle issue most of the time where just screwed i will see if i can find that document for you tho

I am real sorry about your troubles but if I were the manufacturer you'd be SOL.

I mean wtf, you are running non OEM parts that cannot have been tested by DC. Do you expect them to cover every possible USER MODIFICATION?! Even if the problem occured BEFORE the MODS, now that you've changed the truck... it's over.

Take yer lumps like a man. THe moment you turned a wrench on your truck you accepted the responsibility ALL of us do... "If it breaks you get to keep both pieces".

Look at it this way, It gives you a reason to upgrade to a V8. There are a couple of guys in my club that have not been able to get warrenty work done because their Jeeps had been Off-Road. I wonder how the warrenty for that new rubicon will be written? Good luck with it.

I am a technician for a Dodge/Jeep dealer (job security :flipoff2: ) and I have encountered situations similar to yours. In my experience, the customer ended up paying in most cases. By performing modifications to your vehicle, regarldless of the fact that they had nothing to do with the motor, you took responsability. It's not worth trying to fight DC, they will more than likely end up winning in the end. It sucks, but you will probably have to pay for the repairs, especially since it is out of warranty :(

Originally posted by chrisd
I am a technician for a Dodge/Jeep dealer (job security :flipoff2: ) and I have encountered situations similar to yours. In my experience, the customer ended up paying in most cases. By performing modifications to your vehicle, regarldless of the fact that they had nothing to do with the motor, you took responsability. It's not worth trying to fight DC, they will more than likely end up winning in the end. It sucks, but you will probably have to pay for the repairs, especially since it is out of warranty :(

Thanks Chris, this is the type of reply I was looking for. I do know that there is a law/ruling that basically says that a manufacturer cannot wash their hands of an warranty just because a particular part has been modified, it just waives responsibility in the area of that part. My suspension lift voids drive line, steering, etc. But it has nothing to do with the engine. An air intake (K&N) doesn't cause the transmission to fail.

Well here's plan b: I found a 4.0 out of a 2001 wrecked XJ with 30K miles. Guy wants $700 for it, maybe a hair less. I will pull the 4.0 leave it in the garage and stroke it this winter (4.7) with a mild cam, at my leisurely winter pace. When I am done building it, pull this 2001 4.0 and sell it for what I have into it. I just need to see if there will be any problems swapping the 2001 4.0 into my 97 (coil on plug ignition vs. my distributor, different o2 sensors, etc.) Chris, do you have any input here?

SeanP

It is called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act (http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/warranties/undermag.htm) .

If you have good records of an ongoing problem and really want to fight, call your states attorney general. They can tell you how to get in front of the dispute resolution board. (or something like that). That is where you might get some satisfaction.

Given the information above, and your experience with the 4.0, since it has been around in one form or another since before we were born, why would you stroke it to a 4.7 ? If reliability is an issue, why Faw%$k with the engineered design ? I know the warranty is gone on a junker, but a good engine should last at least 200,000 maybe 250,000 miles. What value is the STROKE JOB ? Is 10 ft lbs worth it ? $700 for engine is sweet ... :smokin:
Install the Fawker and Pray :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Had a friend with the same problem after he installed a high capacity water pump... It seemed that when going slow in 4L he was pushing to much water and it didn't have the time to cool in the radiator. Went back to the stock pump and no problems. What transmission are you running?

you don't have a chance with an arbitration board... you admit changing the cooling system - water pump and 3 row rad and motor failed due to a cooling issue.
I have a friend whos taken a dealership to small claims court (2 times now) and each time no attourney for dealership showed up so he wins by default. The last time we asked the judge WTF- and was told if the dealership expects to loose, they wont show but only want to make it hard for the customer to get their $$. One fax later and picked up the check.

Originally posted by 1988YJ
Had a friend with the same problem after he installed a high capacity water pump... It seemed that when going slow in 4L he was pushing to much water and it didn't have the time to cool in the radiator. Went back to the stock pump and no problems. What transmission are you running?

Running the AW4 tranny. Yeah, it might be the flow cooler. I am probably fawked. I just want to get a smooth, cool running engine before this season is gone. I don't mind bucking up for the new engine it it will give me peace of mind. Broken axles, ujoints, drivelines, torn sidewalls, no problem. Overheating fawking engine everytime, that causes huge amount of grief.

SeanP

Originally posted by Lil Uzi
Given the information above, and your experience with the 4.0, since it has been around in one form or another since before we were born, why would you stroke it to a 4.7 ? If reliability is an issue, why Faw%$k with the engineered design ? I know the warranty is gone on a junker, but a good engine should last at least 200,000 maybe 250,000 miles. What value is the STROKE JOB ? Is 10 ft lbs worth it ? $700 for engine is sweet ... :smokin:
Install the Fawker and Pray :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Huh?? A 4.7 stroker should put out around 280 HP and 280 ft/lbs of torque. Where do you get 10? I've seen one of these and they're sweet. I want one.

Originally posted by Lil Uzi
Given the information above, and your experience with the 4.0, since it has been around in one form or another since before we were born, why would you stroke it to a 4.7 ? If reliability is an issue, why Faw%$k with the engineered design ? I know the warranty is gone on a junker, but a good engine should last at least 200,000 maybe 250,000 miles. What value is the STROKE JOB ? Is 10 ft lbs worth it ? $700 for engine is sweet ... :smokin:
Install the Fawker and Pray :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
what are you talking about?
you can pump a 4.0 (normally aspirated) up to about 300hp.
thats about 100 hp over stock...maybe you forgot a "0" on the end of your 10hp claim.
add a supercharger, and well, you do the math...
also, when stroking, your using better components (i should hope) than original, so explain how that wont be as reliable?
and FYI, there are STOCK Mexican 4.7Ls i-6s. check the stroker list if you dont believe me.
~John

Good luck trying to get warranty work. Daimler Chrysler really SUCKS when it comes to any warranty work. I've experienced it first hand. Good thing I didn't buy an extended warranty from them.

Charles

Try putting a flow restrictor inside of your hose or thermostat housing and see how that works...You have a high flow pump and large radiator, I think he's right, its flowing TOO well.

You state that you changed cooling system components and then experienced a cooling related failure. You'r basically screwed from and DC responsibility. It is also out of warranty.

As was stated, it sounds lioke you sre flowing the coolant too fast, it doesn't have enough time to either pick up the heat, or, most likely, get rid of it through the rediator.
Do you have a thermostat?
Do you run an antifreeze mix?
Get a heatgun and check the temperature difference between the upper rad tank and the lower. There should be about a 10* difference. If it is more than that, you have a flow problem, too slow a coolant flow, if it is less than that, you may still have a flow problem (too fast rather than too slow flow) or a capacity problem, either air flow or too little coolant.

SeanP---like JeapinIan says....did you experience the cooling prob AFTER the cooling mods? Still running the 210 degree factory thermostat?
If you really have a cooling prob that you did not cause then I am 100 percent behind you but you might have created your own prob....something you did that you did not think to put in your post like maybe you put a tranny cooler in front of the radiator....or removed the factory mechanical fan and went electrics....left the factory shroud off.....you didn't do that I hope. Thanks for answering.

Originally posted by ZUK
SeanP---like JeapinIan says....did you experience the cooling prob AFTER the cooling mods? Still running the 210 degree factory thermostat?
If you really have a cooling prob that you did not cause then I am 100 percent behind you but you might have created your own prob....something you did that you did not think to put in your post like maybe you put a tranny cooler in front of the radiator....or removed the factory mechanical fan and went electrics....left the factory shroud off.....you didn't do that I hope. Thanks for answering.

Zuk, cooling issues started the month we took delivery of the vehicle (used, 1 year old with 13K miles). First 4LO little drive at Bassi Falls caused it to boil over. I didn't change anything out until almost two years after that when I split the el cheapo plastic radiator tank on the OEM and replaced it with a beefier 3 core all metal radiator. Stock T-stat is 195*, and I have never deviated from that. I always replace the Tsat and rad cap after overheating incidents. Fan shroud still there, stock tranny cooler. This friggin jeep has a lemon engine, but from the advice given here, I am likely SOL.

SeanP

Originally posted by SeanP


My suspension lift voids drive line, steering, etc. But it has nothing to do with the engine. An air intake (K&N) doesn't cause the transmission to fail.


SeanP

Not to be an arse, but an engine IS part of the driveline! When you put larger tires on you put more stress on the engine. This is the case especially if you dont change gearing! And when the engine is working harder form the added stress the stock cooling systme may not be able to keep up!

Originally posted by SeanP
Well here's plan b: I found a 4.0 out of a 2001 wrecked XJ with 30K miles. Guy wants $700 for it, maybe a hair less. I will pull the 4.0 leave it in the garage and stroke it this winter (4.7) with a mild cam, at my leisurely winter pace. When I am done building it, pull this 2001 4.0 and sell it for what I have into it. I just need to see if there will be any problems swapping the 2001 4.0 into my 97 (coil on plug ignition vs. my distributor, different o2 sensors, etc.) Chris, do you have any input here?

SeanP

I don't think that would be possible because the computers and wiring harnesses are very different due to the coil-on-plug ignition. With enough money I'm sure it can be done, but would it be worth it? I'll get a price tomorow on a long block, I don't think the 4.0s are very expensive. I see low mileage 4.0s in the want-ads from time to time for around $500-600.

My boss told me today that ANY modification performed by the owner will void the warranty (with the exeptions being aftermarket parts offered by the manufacturer). Changing the water pump and radiator will void the warranty, for reasons stated above. We even had one customer's warranty voided because he didnt use Mopar oil filters :eek: . That may sound a little harsh, but it makes sence. DC cannot make sure every filter sold will work properly on they're motors, and they dont want to be responsable if someone else's filter fails. We have to cover our asses

lets forego all the other mods, since its your engine you have a problem with, you lost all your hopes of anything from DC when you put that stupid good for nothin "high flow" water pump on your bone stock engine. if you are going to pursue this, get a stock water pump on and make no mention of the worthless gimmick you bought into.

Originally posted by chrisd
... We even had one customer's warranty voided because he didnt use Mopar oil filters :eek: . That may sound a little harsh, but it makes sence. DC cannot make sure every filter sold will work properly on they're motors, and they dont want to be responsable if someone else's filter fails. We have to cover our asses

I call BS on that. Accoding to Federal law, as long as a quality filter is being used, the warranty cannot be voided because it is not a filter sold by the dealer. If the filter fails, then it is the warranty for the filter that will cover the engine.
FRAM made a filter for one of the Cat engines on a dozer and did not puit a by-pass valve in it. The engine died. Fram came to the shop, inspected the engine. Compared thier filter to a Cat one and paid for a new engine.

I call BS one the filter story too. As long as the filter is SAE aproved or whatever it is.

And what the f$%k is with all these newbies and their dumbass replies?!?!?!?:confused: Yes the manufactor should test and design for all user modification. It's their job! As a mechanical engien don't fail cause of bigger tires and suspension jobs. After all they do test to see how long engines will run with out oil, at full WOT, rev the piss, and etc out of these engines. Sound like Sean got a bad one. Sorry Man. Go with the stroker.

Sean, sorry bud but it sounds like you don't have a leg to stand on. DC is a bitch about the warranty regardless of mods. You got a crappy motor, it's probably their fault, but try proving it.

The best part about the 4.0 (aside from reliability and power/weight) is the fact that they are dirt cheap in the bone yards or classified. Pass on the 01 and go find yourself a matching motor. Shouldn't run you too much.

Sean, sorry about your rig, was hopin' to see you on more of our runs this year. I like the idea of finding an exact replacement motor and keeping everything OEM. If you go that route, you could yank the old motor and drop the new one in and maybee only miss a couple weekends intead of being down all summer. Or you could have a setup like Tommy J, cut the inner fender wells out and drop in a Zuki 4 banger. The only down side to that is that you'll run so cool that you will have to heat your burrittos on someonelses manifold:D

Lance, I will not be down this entire season. A friend of mine had that happen to him, it it made him so sad he ended up having to drink Olympia. ;) :flipoff2:

As an update: I got a 4.0 out of a 98XJ with 28K miles on it. Compression tested to 165-185 on all cylinders. 90 day warranty. $900, no delivery charges. A bit more than I wanted to spend and it certainly prolongs the Atlas, but if it means I have a cool, smooth running engine it will be money well spent. I hope to have it swapped this weekend.

And, I would put betting money on the fact that as soon as it gets rainy here this winter, my engine will be torn down and stroked to 4.7. Hello 300HP and 340pound/feet. Then sell this replacement engine for what I got into it.

SeanP