Sam trying to be a paddle steamer :flipoff2:

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_lower_waterfall_track__01.jpg

More to come.

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_lower_waterfall_track__02.jpg

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_lower_waterfall_track__03.jpg

Ps; Thats smoke from the exhaust not a bad picture :flipoff2:

Out at last :flipoff2:

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_lower_waterfall_track__04.jpg

Want more :eek:

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_on_cv_crack__01.jpg

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_on_cv_crack__02.jpg

This is the steps near Sam's house

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/logan_village_steps.jpg

An idea of how steap this is

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/ruff_logan_village_steps__02.jpg

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/ruff_logan_village_steps__01.jpg

Oh yeah thats me :flipoff2:

Gettin it :flipoff2:

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_logan_village_steps__1.jpg

Last one :rolleyes:

http://pics.montypics.com/Ruff_HILUX/2002-06-24/sam_logan_village_steps__02.jpg

Awsome pics Tony, great stuff. Jeeze I gotta get rid of this motor, its totally phucked. Although at least you can see in which of the pics im getting into it full throttle. :flipoff2: I can see smoke in at least three pics, do you think its the way I drive??

Have you had a look at any of the video??

Sam

hey sam, i did the calcs and youre at about 53:1 right now with the 4.09s. how bad is it, since with the setup i am going to end up using at least temporarily will be 60:1 with 42s and quite a bit less motor :D

i say temporarily, because eventually, it will be big block torque and at least 92:1 :D

Although I do not know for sure what manual trans you have; an LT95 has a 4.0691 first gear. (LT85 has a 3.6497 and a R380/LT77 has a 3.32).

To put it into perspective a Range Rover or similar with a ZF Auto, a LT230 T-case with 4.10 low range gears and 4.70 in the diffs have a crawl ratio of 47.79.

I calculate you at 55.13. (4.09 * 4.06 *3.32).

Seems low to me. Are my calcs off or is the manual tranny really that ineffective off road? Am I missing something or are my calcs wrong? I know the large tires make it less effective, but THAT LESS EFFECTIVE??? WOW. Hmmm..

Way

P.S. Thanks for the pics I really enjoyed them!

Originally posted by Way


way, the LT95 has a 3.22:1 low and a 4.06 1st, and with a 4.09 rearend, thats 53.47:1.

now, with 33s, this would be adequate. but with a 42, you have increased your tire sie so much that it becomes rather ineffective.

also, the range rover with the auto has the torque converter, which the manual does not. when you account in a factor of 2x gear reduction by the torque converter, that range rover is at 96:1, almost twice that of sams rig.

In the obsticals im driving here in these pics the gearing I have is OK cause in all these pics Im using a fair bit of momentum cause I carnt crawl them. If I try to crawl then I just get wheelspin and no progress. In the last pic ive got the front wheels about 10inches from the 2ft vertical step up which both front wheels have to go up at the same time. Making it harder is a smaller step the rear has to go up at the same time so trying to crawl I just sit there spinning (to do this I have to ride the clutch or have the motor above 1500rpm so it doesent stall which is quite fast) So to drive it I had to nail it in first (pop the clutch at about 2000rpm) to use the 10in run up to get momentum to punch the front up. I tried it about 10 times and the front just went straight up and would land back down on the edge (at this point I owuld put my foot on the clutch) I kept trying to hit it harded and harder and started to get a feel for wat was happening and then I hit it one more time and as the front went up in the air I kept on the gas and the rear kept driving and the front landed up on top and I drove out. Bloody good fun but I was getting fairly verticle but it felt fine. In the pics Tony drove the steps in about 3rd double low which I would guess be about 50:1.

Tonys hylux has got dual transfers and hes at about 100:1 with a manual and ther difference it makes is incredible. He can spin his
wheels on solid rock at absoulte idle at 100:1. This sort of gearing is what I need and I will get it with the NP434, LT95 transfer, and 4.56 gears = 6.7 (I think) x 3.32 x 4.56 = 100:1

Back to the gearing. At around 55:1 I am no where near geared low enough. In the big boulder stuff where you get big vertical obsticals that one or two wheels have to drive up at the same time I can get to a point where Im riding the clutch at 2500rpm at full throttle and nothing happens - I just carnt turn the tyres at all. It really amases me how much lower I need to be. With the 36in tyres this would never happen. I could always spin these tyres. When going fron the 36 to the 42 I feel you need to go a lot lower than just compensating for the tyre size because the bigger tyres let you drive a lot more stuff that is a lot more vertical and they also have so much more grip.

Sam

PS I think that mose autos have a 2.5:1 first gear so that with the conveter makes it equivalent to a 5:1 first in a manual which is comparable to a 4:1 first in my lt95. Also the transfer gears are 3.32 I think.

A ZF is 2.48. You are correct in that and also that the LT95 is 3.32. So I guess if the torque converter truly doubles. This is what you get.

4.96 * 3.32 * 4.09 = 67.35

Or

With 4.56s gives you a ratio of 75.09
With 4.88s gives you a ratio of 80.36

*OR* (you get the maxi drive LT230 low range gears super cheap there right????, BTW you should send some over here :) )

With low range gears with 4.56s gives you 92.73
With 4.88 same scenario 99.24

Since all of the rover stuff is super cheap there you could throw a ZF auto, low range LT230 and some D44 gears in and be set with a killer set up. This is assuming that this stuff is truly cheap. Out of curiosity why do you prefer to go the route you mentioned? Can you get cheap crawler boxes over there too? Explain your reasoning for your route. Seems like it would be easier to bolt in some cheap rover stuff (never thought I say that) and be good to go.

Way

You are right, I could go that way. Ive already got a TF727 and lt230. To get the 4.3:1 maxi gears would cost $1500AUS which isnt cheap. Now my rover motor is totally stuffed so I need to get another one of those (or rebuild it) so this will be about $1500 to get something like a 3.9injected. And to get lower gears for the d44s will be about $1200 installed.

So instead what I have bought is a windsor 302 and NP435 and a rear d70 with 4.56 gears for $2000AUS. The d70 will go with the front D60 (it has 4.56 gears). And then Ive got to adapt the lt95 transfer to the np435. To do this Im going to get the NP435 output shaft cut and weld on the lt95 gearbox output shaft. This will cost $200AUS. And then Ive got to cut the lt95 housing and weld on a flange plate that bolts to the np435. This will be easy to do (less than $100AUS). I think that the windsor/np435/lt95 will be a very good setup.

So basically the rover motor/tf727/lt230 would cost me $3000 to do and I think that the 302w/np435/lt95 will cost me about the same (maybe a little less) and I still have the tf727 and lt230 sitting in my shed for another day. I think that the 302 will have better power than a 3.9 and I think that the 100:1 with the np435 will be an excellent setup.

I guess I think that the 302windsor and np435 will be a better setup than the rover stuff and I need a new motor anyway.

Sam

Makes perfect sense.

$1500 AUS = $860.55 U.S. Dollars. Seems like a smokin deal to me compared to our U.S. $2200 distributor for low range gears. I guess they are even lower than 4.10 they are 4.30???

When I get an LT230 (found one and going to get it soon BTW) Maybe we can work out a deal. Us U.S. guys can go to a scrap yard and get a ton of spare axles and other hard to find items for you and maybe you can get a few sets of those low range gears and ship them over if we pay the cost. I am willing to do a lot of work for $1200 savings. Just a thought to keep in mind. Let me know If you are looking for something in particular I am moving to a city with a junk yard! :bounce: :bounce2: :bounce: :bounce2: I will be there next monday.

Way

Originally posted by Way
Makes perfect sense.

$1500 AUS = $860.55 U.S. Dollars. Seems like a smokin deal to me compared to our U.S. $2200 distributor for low range gears. I guess they are even lower than 4.10 they are 4.30???

When I get an LT230 (found one and going to get it soon BTW) Maybe we can work out a deal. Us U.S. guys can go to a scrap yard and get a ton of spare axles and other hard to find items for you and maybe you can get a few sets of those low range gears and ship them over if we pay the cost. I am willing to do a lot of work for $1200 savings. Just a thought to keep in mind. Let me know If you are looking for something in particular I am moving to a city with a junk yard! :bounce: :bounce2: :bounce: :bounce2: I will be there next monday.

Way

ME TOO ME TOO ME TOO!!!!!!!!

j

Hell, count me in as well. I've got a 351W that you can have in lieu of that small 302.:flipoff2: Even swap!

I spoke to maxi drive yesterday (they are about 30min drive from me) and the price is something like $1500AUS + 10%GST. I think that if I export them then I dont have to charge the GST so the price would just be the $1500 which for you US guys is bloody cheap. Now the hard part is that to get this done they rework your intermediate gear. So either you have to send your intermediate gear over here first or I have to find here that we can exchange so that the process becomes a lot faster. Also not all lt230s have the same intermediate gear but maxi is sending me a list of part numbers so ill find out if what you guys have is the same as what we got here..

Either way this will be doable and wont be much trouble on my part.

Sam

lol sam you kick ass, any american parts you want/need? you know you want a big block chevy in that thing instead of that little 302 :D

Sounds good. Any thing you want from the U.S.?? Let us know and we can tell you what we find.

Way

Excellent, I do actually need locking hubs/drive flanges for the front d60 (its got 30 spline outers), I would love to get a track loc (I think its called a trac loc - basically I want a limited slip for it) for the d60 and a trac loc for the rear d70 or a trac loc for a 14 bolt (I can buy a 14 bolt with 4.56 gears here fairly cheap). The gears im running are 4.56:1 so I need the hemispheres to match.

Are therse bits possible?? Anyone??

:beer:

Sam

I have a friend doing a 35 spline conversion in Colorado springs. I bet he would let go of his 30 spline hardware cheap. I will let you know after I get there. You should be asking for Warn premium locking hubs BTW. They are what you want. Lifetime warranty also. The carrier split on D60s is at 4:56. Most come with 4.10s, so I am not sure how probable this is for a front axle.

Way

P.S. Are hubs called drive flanges over there? Or are you referring to an additiopnal piece. I am unfamiliar with the term drive flange. I am still a newbie! :flipoff2:

Nope...No trac-locs...Only Detroits and ARB's...Sorry your just going to HAVE to buy a REAL locker...That's all there is to it.

--D


Originally posted by Strange Rover
Excellent, I do actually need locking hubs/drive flanges for the front d60 (its got 30 spline outers), I would love to get a track loc (I think its called a trac loc - basically I want a limited slip for it) for the d60 and a trac loc for the rear d70 or a trac loc for a 14 bolt (I can buy a 14 bolt with 4.56 gears here fairly cheap). The gears im running are 4.56:1 so I need the hemispheres to match.

Are therse bits possible?? Anyone??

:beer:

Sam

hey sam i bet youre gonna be wishin that you put 35spl outers on that 60, cause otherwise you are only gaining strength in the ujoint over the 44.

also, i would go with the 14bolt rearend over the 70 simply for the strength.

I call a solid locking hub a drive flange (like whats on a maxi drive axle)

Doug, are you sure they didnt make limited slips for d60s or 14bolts. I thought some came out factory like that. And you wouldnt believe how good my rig goes without lockers. In actual fact there is nothing that I can drive with the rear locker in that I carnt drive with it out (just the with the traction control). Having the limited slips will just make it much easier (and the response faster) so if I can get them it will be great and if I carnt then open it will be.

:flipoff2:

Sam

Doug - PM your address Ill send you some video. Oh yea I have twisted three rear axles in the last month. This rear d44 just aint copping it.

To clear up some details, here is some info for you on D60s.

Way

Originally posted by 9-Volt
hey sam i bet youre gonna be wishin that you put 35spl outers on that 60, cause otherwise you are only gaining strength in the ujoint over the 44.

also, i would go with the 14bolt rearend over the 70 simply for the strength.

Ill do the 35 spline outers if a break the 30spliners. But I doubt that this will happen. I havent even broken a front stock d44 yet.

Sam

ARBs and Detroits (solid lockers) are the only lockers available for a 70. The information I have in a mag here is a year old, but a 14 bolt you can only run a detroit (unless you get the 9.5 version of the 14 bolt...skip). I also remember reading that a spool was offered for a D70 recently also, but do not know for sure.

Way

Originally posted by Way
To clear up some details, here is some info for you on D60s.

Way

Thanks Adam, Im fairly sure they came out factory with them. And I can remember on some site they still sell them new (dutchmans I think)

Sam

yes there are quite a few limited slips available for the D60, and a few for the 14 bolt and 70.

look around for new design aftermarket LS's. like eaton, richmond, etc all make very good ones.

i also REALLY think you will be wanting gears a lot lower than the 4.56s for the 42s, even with the NP435s low first. cause what you have to remember is that you bud with 100:1 is on 36s, and youre on 42s. thats quite a large difference, of 16%. so therefore, you should be looking for something in the at least 116:1 range, but i would look more towards 130. that could be accomplished with 5.89 gears, which you can only get for a 60/70.

in my rig i am going with 7.17s because i need the gearing and i have never heard of a pinion breaking. for me, with a suffix C series IIA trans (3.6:1), a suffix A case (2.9:1), and 7.17s in the pigs, i will be at about 75:1.

i know that i am going to be badly wanting a bigger motor and a lower gear, but for now i am going to have to be sticking with the rover 2.25.

this winter i will be going to a V8 and granny 4spd, which i am hoping to get to almost 100:1 with. i feel that this will be adequaate because i will be running a lot more motor than the 302 that youre planning on.

good luck with yours and ill keep you updated with mine. :beer:

He is also after some Bobby Long superaxles, a set of 4.7 transfer case gears, a set of 4.88 high pinion diff gears, a set of 5 inch allpro springs and a set of cromo rear axles all to suit a toy pickup :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Oh i almost forgot he needs a full exo cage to suit an 86 extra cab toy pickup :D

It's not that they don't make a LS for the 60/14...It's just that there isn't much cost difference in a full locker v.s. a LS. And with the 60 your NOT going to have to worry about stress and all that. I understand that your clearing all the obstacles that you can with your traction control and open diff, but as you can see in the pics, your right front tire is not moving. You mention having to dump the clutch at 3k rpm to clear these obstacles....IMO you should be worried about flipping over backwards with your wheel-base and 42's (if you were fully locked)...Even with your gear ratio issues.

Just bite the bullet and go with the full locker. You'll be amazed at how much easier life is. Of course I know you're a terminal 'tinkerer' and the traction control is f'in cool, but...

And I wouldn't worry about doing a 35 spline conversion just yet either (until you pop that 302 in there)...True the outers are the same diameter as a 44, but the yokes are f'in huge in comparison. So it's NOT the same in strength as a 44 outer...99 times out of 100 the yoke is what deforms first on a 44 failure....How many stub shafts failures have you seen on a LR CV? How many times have you seen a stub failure without deformation of the yoke on a 44?

I personally am going forgo the 1.5" outers and spend my $ elsewhere. 180hp (160 at my altitude) and an auto-box isn't going to be enough to pop a D60 30 spline outer....No way.

O'yea...e-mail that vid to marbourg@lanl.gov

-D





Originally posted by Strange Rover
I call a solid locking hub a drive flange (like whats on a maxi drive axle)

Doug, are you sure they didnt make limited slips for d60s or 14bolts. I thought some came out factory like that. And you wouldnt believe how good my rig goes without lockers. In actual fact there is nothing that I can drive with the rear locker in that I carnt drive with it out (just the with the traction control). Having the limited slips will just make it much easier (and the response faster) so if I can get them it will be great and if I carnt then open it will be.

:flipoff2:

Sam

Doug - PM your address Ill send you some video. Oh yea I have twisted three rear axles in the last month. This rear d44 just aint copping it.

Originally posted by RUFF
He is also after some Bobby Long superaxles


Hmmmmmm. I don't know how comfortable I'd be knowing I had Bobby's Long Shaft in anything I own! :eek:

Originally posted by Way
I also remember reading that a spool was offered for a D70 recently also, but do not know for sure.

Way

I don't think so...But if it's true I'd sure like to know.

From what I've heard, a 70 spool would be cost prohibitive in that the size of the billet material required to machine a spool isn't available (readily that is). And the $ would cost the sucker out the window. I hope I'm wrong though.

--D

Doug,

I will keep an eye out for it. All of my junk is packed and when I pull out the mags I will do a quick flip through and see if I can get a number or web page.

Way

P.S. You could do a lot of precious metal machining for $500.

hey doug, there is a D70 spool. a few companies make them, like MILLER, HOBART, and LINCOLN :flipoff2:

Originally posted by 9-Volt
hey doug, there is a D70 spool. a few companies make them, like MILLER, HOBART, and LINCOLN :flipoff2:

:flipoff2:

Originally posted by RockRover
It's not that they don't make a LS for the 60/14...It's just that there isn't much cost difference in a full locker v.s. a LS. And with the 60 your NOT going to have to worry about stress and all that. I understand that your clearing all the obstacles that you can with your traction control and open diff, but as you can see in the pics, your right front tire is not moving. You mention having to dump the clutch at 3k rpm to clear these obstacles....IMO you should be worried about flipping over backwards with your wheel-base and 42's (if you were fully locked)...Even with your gear ratio issues.

Just bite the bullet and go with the full locker. You'll be amazed at how much easier life is. Of course I know you're a terminal 'tinkerer' and the traction control is f'in cool, but...


-D


Yea pretty obvious in that pic the front right isnt turning. That one of then biggest short commings of the traction control, when the brakes dont work neither does the TC and that happens in mud and water. And I hate both.

But you will be really suprised how well this thing works.

Crawling over stuff where no momentum is used I would say there is absolutely no difference between the traction control and lockers and in a lot of instances the TC is better cause the wheels still differentiate and never try to fight each other.

When throttling over stuff the biggest difference is that a spinning wheel when it hits something (like a solid rock step) will stop and there is a time delay before the brake goes on the other side make the wheel drive again. I dont think that this has really been a problem with the front (although I carnt really tell cause it hasnt got a locker at all to make a comparison) but what it does allow me to do is to drive the front flat out at one sided stepups without worrying about breaking stuff. With a locker up front I could never do that, driving a spinning locked front wheel at a solid rock step up would break the d44 for sure. I know with the d60 this shouldnt be an issue.

I think there are a lot of times where the time delay for the brake to come on may be a PITA with the rear cause when using momentum to get up a big step up you really want a locked wheel to bight the rock as soon as it touches it. This is why I really want the limited slips cause with a LS and the traction control it can operate much faster and becomes closer to a locker in momentum type stuff.

If someone asks me whats better - the traction control or lockers? I say lockers are definately better in terms of ultimately driving over stuff. If you want to do hard core wheeling then get lockers cause you carnt beat them.

So what it the traction control good for? heres what I think-
Really good for someone who not into the real hard core shiat cause the TC is totally automatic and doesent require any decision making.
Good for big trucks cause the TC will be so much cheaper to install than lockers.
Good for trucks that you carnt get lockers for.
Good for 4wd that you carnt get lockers for (like lots of the IFS rigs)

And finally I starting to think that it will be really good for someone that has big a tyre on an ARB'd front axle (like running 38s on a rover axle) I think the TC will make the CVs last a long time cause you will use the locker a lot less and the front will never bind against itself.

Now the reason why Im not going to put lockers in these new axles is so that I make the the traction better. If I put lockers in them then I will loose the biggest motivation I could have to do more development on the traction control. If traction control is all I got then if I carnt drive something and something with lockers can then theres my motivation (but this aint going to happen :D )

Sam

PS Doug give me your postal address. Gonna have to do this the old fashion way - and speaking of motivation it will make you get that POS your working on finished :flipoff2:

hey doug, when you get that video, would you mind making a copy of it for me? i hate to ask cause im sure it will lead to lots of other people asking, but i wanna seeeeee it!!!! :D

Originally posted by Strange Rover


Now the reason why Im not going to put lockers in these new axles is so that I make the the traction better. If I put lockers in them then I will loose the biggest motivation I could have to do more development on the traction control. If traction control is all I got then if I carnt drive something and something with lockers can then theres my motivation (but this aint going to happen :D )

Sam

PS Doug give me your postal address. Gonna have to do this the old fashion way - and speaking of motivation it will make you get that POS your working on finished :flipoff2:

That's all you need to say my brotha'....


















BUT!!!! Then I think you should keep the TC on the 44, and fully lock-and-load the 60...The reason for this is you can have the best of both worlds...Keep the TC44 for your research and development, and have your SIII/D60 for the increasingly more difficult terrain you're starting to (and will continue to) discover. However, I completely understand your motivation for keeping the TC on the front burner...Hell I'm sure it could net you some serious $ when you get her dialed in...Heck, I betcha' you could start marketing the thing now and would have a bunch of people that are on the fence locker-wise.

Just don't tell me your gonna' put some of those Aussie Long Dick shafts in your pigs! :rasta:

--D

O'yea! And on that last comment...My POS has certain "needs" that requires careful consideration...And sometimes that takes time....

Aw Bullshit...I'm hittin' the shop hard tomorrow...

Originally posted by 9-Volt
hey doug, when you get that video, would you mind making a copy of it for me? i hate to ask cause im sure it will lead to lots of other people asking, but i wanna seeeeee it!!!! :D

Well, I'll letcha' know if it's worth watching or not...Knowing Sam, it's just a bunch of footage of his feet, with a bunch of swearing in the back-ground. I heard he's working on a new auto-video device that will automatically start recording the second his rig hit's 3000rpms and his foot slip's off the clutch...The problem is that it's getting crossed with his TC, and the only footage he's getting is of him standing on the breaks while yelling at his dingo...

Not a pretty sight I'm afraid...

--D

lol i can see it now...

crikey! ay mate you just almost run over that gator! he was a feisty one too, ya! now sam, you gonna do the ol rev 'er up to 3k rpms again and dump the clutch again? aye, ill stand clear then! crikey!

:flipoff2:

ROTFLMAO. Thts some of the funniest shiat Ive read in a long time, blew bloody chunks of shrimp all over my bloody keyboard. Now how the phuck am I gonna get that shiat out of there. :flipoff2:

Yea and Ive yet to see the video too, so ill make sure its worth watching before I send it.

Hey Doug do you have the technology to handle PAL format or do I have to get it converted to NTSC.

And I here you about the lockers. It would be nice (and easy). But I absolutely swear that this TC works really well and it wont make much difference especially once I get some more power and some decent gearing.

And Ive worked out what im chasing. I guy in Petersons 4 wheel got a f250 "tonka II" with a d60 front and a power lok. Anyone know anything about these.

Sam