Anyone back from ERoCC yet? Looking for results and pix!

Shupe had 6 pionts at the end of saturday,
pretty impressive.
Didn't stay for sunday, but they had a lot better
turn out as far as competitors.
courses was a lot better than before.

Ken Shupe took first place in the Unlimited division.
Jack Bettio took first place in the Legends division.

More to come shortly.

Bawahahahahahaha!!!!

They weren't messing around this time. Courses were much more difficult. Lots of breaks and more than a few roll overs (including ourselves). I didn't stay for the results due to the late finish and long drive home so I'm curious also.

Unlimited-

Pretty sure Shupe won. Troy Meyers from the badlands should be top 3. Lots of high scores outside of the top spots so it's up in the air.

Legend-

PBBs own "SpaceGhost" nabbed 1st or 2nd (points were very close and the other gyuy had one obstacle left when I left). He can drive, it was his first competition.

Hey chad could you tell us where we placed, team #106. Thanks we're just curious.

Originally posted by bigdude
Bawahahahahahaha!!!!

They weren't messing around this time.

I'll second that. This was an awesome event. I will be back.

Here's a pic of what Battleship did to me:D I guess it's time to upgrade.

This event absolutely rocked!! lots more breakage and rollovers. Obstacles seemed to be much harder and the event seemed to run more smoothly too! BTW The "water" was excellent! Shupe and Troy made everything look so easy with their buggies and great driving. Can't wait for July!
later
bob

What I noticed was the desire to acomodate the spectators and put on a show. Granted we got the benefits of the porta potties and concession areas, but the course was all about carnage. I don't agree with the logic and here is why:

If the spectators are fellow enthusiast who are interested in getting involved, once they see what happens to a well preppared rig when it tumbles into the unforgiving rock, they are gonna be less excited about giving it a try. That is based on my own experience of less than 5% of the wheelers I know being interested in the extremes of this sport/hobby. The 95% are the masses and they want to have fun, go where other don't, but still be able to drive to work without major repairs. Don't forget about all the machines that aren't paid for yet.

Tube framed dedicated machines aren't cheap to build and maintain. I would be surprised if any of the spectators here had intentions of building or buying one to compete.

Cashing at the gate (spectator admission) with a few of the hard core teams, without giving it to the competitors drains the resource pool faster than it can maintain. Anyone notice it wasn't the custom buggies doing all the rolling?

Want this sport to grow, make it doable for a larger group of newbies, build from that base, encouraging the learning/spending curve to the top. Who do you know that started in a custom buggy, bypassing the Legends type of machines altogether. You think Troy Myers didn't wheel a 35" rig just as hard on trails, long before he moved up, and entered a competition.

Anyway, great job to all who gave their time to make this event possible, I do appreciate the hard work and good spirits you demonstrated. Respectfully, I noticed the support teams and volunteers preffered to keep their Legends eligible rigs in one piece for another day!

Well fawk. We placed 10th. :( Definitely dissapointed but that event rocked :) Good Job.

All I can say is that we honestly felt if we were in the other group (Group B, running the obstacles in a different order starting on #1 for Sunday) we would've done better.

#1 went from being an extremely difficult dirt face on Sat. to an extremely doable stair step on Sunday. I mean Saturday it broke the first 5 vehicles to try it and timed out the next 2-3. Then Sunday about 80% of the vehicles completed it easily. That right there tells me how much it changed.

I loved the event! last time seemed too easy and this time seemed almost too hard! I think there was something like 12 rolls this time, compared to the three last time. Overall, I thought it was a great event and look forward to being a competitor in it. To those who complain about too many rigs breaking, I say this: It's a hard-core competition. Nature of the sport. If I go eventually and break everything, I still won't complain. I just know that I need to change something. (Seems like a lot of people were compensating for bad lines with throttle.)

I do have some complaints about it in general though. I thought that the cone in the middle of Table Top was stupid. I know that, as a competitor, I would have felt like I was jumping thrugh hoops for the judges. Being a spectator, I really didn't care to watch big trucks, which are cumbersome naturally, try to tip-toe around a cone. That's not what I call action. Secondly, I'm starting to re-think the whole theory behind cones. It seems to me that the big S-10 thing, driven by Toploader on this board, spanked most of the obstacles that others couldn't. But because he is wide and doesn't turn all that great, he did crappy in points standings because he hit cones. If the competitor goes up the designated course, I think it shouldn't matter if they knock over a cone. I know that drivers hate having to fit thorugh those gates and, as a spectator, I don't really care if their tire touches a little too far to one side of a small rock.

That's the extent of my complaints. overall, I was EXTREMELY pleased with another successful ERoCC. Like I said, I hope to be a competitor for next year and loved the course. Congratulations go to Trailkeepers again!

J. J.

PS: My 200+ pics will be on my site and Alloffroad soon!

I hope I wasn't percieved as complaining about the breakage, it wasn't my intention. I was ranting about the the event being for the spectator instead of competitors.

Cone placement was very tight, I noticed several obstacles where most couldn't get on the course without taking the #1 gate out.

When it is all said and done, and of course I sleep in my own bed, I don't really have any complaints, just some observations and ideas.

I for one had trouble and needed to winch on more than one occasion. Too bad for me there were no winch points to get me off the obstacle. The dead pine tree I reluctantly hooked to on 12 was a bust. The jeep parked beyond the length of cable on 10 gives you NO chance to take a winch penalty and continue with time.

I second Bigdude on the luck of the draw playing big in the outcome. Not to mention obstacles that NO ONE has ever run, virgin, no vehicles ever!

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
What I noticed was the desire to acomodate the spectators and put on a show. Granted we got the benefits of the porta potties and concession areas, but the course was all about carnage. I don't agree with the logic and here is why:

If the spectators are fellow enthusiast who are interested in getting involved, once they see what happens to a well preppared rig when it tumbles into the unforgiving rock, they are gonna be less excited about giving it a try. That is based on my own experience of less than 5% of the wheelers I know being interested in the extremes of this sport/hobby. The 95% are the masses and they want to have fun, go where other don't, but still be able to drive to work without major repairs. Don't forget about all the machines that aren't paid for yet.

Tube framed dedicated machines aren't cheap to build and maintain. I would be surprised if any of the spectators here had intentions of building or buying one to compete.

Cashing at the gate (spectator admission) with a few of the hard core teams, without giving it to the competitors drains the resource pool faster than it can maintain. Anyone notice it wasn't the custom buggies doing all the rolling?

Want this sport to grow, make it doable for a larger group of newbies, build from that base, encouraging the learning/spending curve to the top. Who do you know that started in a custom buggy, bypassing the Legends type of machines altogether. You think Troy Myers didn't wheel a 35" rig just as hard on trails, long before he moved up, and entered a competition.



If you don't cater to the fans, you won't get fans, and all you wind up with is a trail ride, not a competition.

There are plenty of trail rides already to "build your base" from. As it is the newbie can go on the trail rides, perfect his rig and his driving, then come to our competitions and compete with the big dogs.

After our April event we had the competitors fill out surveys and the two biggest requests were more hill climbs and to make the course harder. THE COMPETITORS WANTED THE COURSE TO BE HARDER. Read that again. THE COMPETITORS WANTED THE COURSE TO BE HARDER. Most spectators I spoke to after the April event couldn't believe how hard it was. Not a single one of them said that the course was too easy. Quite the opposite, most of them couldn't believe their eyes.

As for rollovers, if those are so dreaded, why do most competitors jump on top of their vehicle and throw their hands in the air and yell in triumph when they roll? That's normally not how most people voice their displeasure.

Every single competitor there had the option on every single obstacle to either not start the obstacle, or to voluntarily time out once into an obstacle. So for the newbies who want to try their hand at it, they can easily come to an event and only run the obstacles they feel confident that they won't roll on or break anything on, or even scratch their paint on.

We didn't compete this time, but from a spectators point of view, I thought it was great. The obstacles were close enough together, so it was easy to see all the vehicles. I think the 4 group start that was used on sunday was great. I was inspired by the "water" also.

Originally posted by patooyee
I
...Being a spectator, I really didn't care to watch big trucks, which are cumbersome naturally, try to tip-toe around a cone. That's not what I call action. Secondly, I'm starting to re-think the whole theory behind cones. It seems to me that the big S-10 thing, driven by Toploader on this board, spanked most of the obstacles that others couldn't. But because he is wide and doesn't turn all that great, he did crappy in points standings because he hit cones. If the competitor goes up the designated course, I think it shouldn't matter if they knock over a cone. I know that drivers hate having to fit thorugh those gates and, as a spectator, I don't really care if their tire touches a little too far to one side of a small rock.

That's the extent of my complaints. overall, I was EXTREMELY pleased with another successful ERoCC. Like I said, I hope to be a competitor for next year and loved the course. Congratulations go to Trailkeepers again!

J. J.

PS: My 200+ pics will be on my site and Alloffroad soon!

If we don't have cones, what in the heck would define the course, the state lines of Tennessee?

After the first event we heard all kinds of complaints that the cones were too tight and that we were making up for an easy course by making the cones tight. So this event we made the cones wider and the obstacles longer and more difficult. Guess what happened? The scores of the best two drivers WENT DOWN. Just what we figured. If you move the gates wider, it makes it much easier for the standard sized vehicles to maneuver. If we make them too wide we wind up with 10 finishers with 0 points tied for first. There have been other events that have had that problem - too many competitors tied for first with identical scores on all the obstacles. That's what you get when the gates are too wide. You also wind up with people that have big pocketbooks who can't drive winning the event because they can afford to have the biggest vehicle.

This is rock crawling. The courses should be full of turns and twists and off-cambers and the only way to make that happen is to define a course with cones. If you want to see trucks drive straight up a hill, go to Gravelrama.

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
I hope I wasn't percieved as complaining about the breakage, it wasn't my intention. I was ranting about the the event being for the spectator instead of competitors.

Cone placement was very tight, I noticed several obstacles where most couldn't get on the course without taking the #1 gate out.

When it is all said and done, and of course I sleep in my own bed, I don't really have any complaints, just some observations and ideas.

I for one had trouble and needed to winch on more than one occasion. Too bad for me there were no winch points to get me off the obstacle. The dead pine tree I reluctantly hooked to on 12 was a bust. The jeep parked beyond the length of cable on 10 gives you NO chance to take a winch penalty and continue with time.

I second Bigdude on the luck of the draw playing big in the outcome. Not to mention obstacles that NO ONE has ever run, virgin, no vehicles ever!

Welcome to ROCK CRAWLING. Deal with it.

Just make sure you beat Bettio in July.

Another note about catering to fans. I have no idea how EROCC does it but there is A LOT of time and effort that goes into these events, they are not cheap time wise or $$$ wise to put on. I know that in some other series' the vast majority of the spectator fees go into the actual cost of putting the show on so that the entry fees can be returned to the competitors as prize money. Without fans the sport won't exist.

Originally posted by TrailKeeper


Welcome to ROCK CRAWLING. Deal with it.


Got it, loud and clear, and it's all good.

Sounds like Trail Keeper didn't get much sleep. Neither did I, I'm just too tired to type.

Originally posted by TrailKeeper


Welcome to ROCK CRAWLING. Deal with it.

Just make sure you beat Bettio in July.

<stirring pot>I've got $5.00 on Bettio.:flipoff2: </stirring pot>

I don't get any points for being tactful either, so what was meant as fodder for consideration, came out smelling pretty foul. Tim worked very hard, not to single him out, but I get the sense he takes a lot of ownership in the success of this series. I applaude him, and respect him, hope I haven't smashed his toes here, it wasn't my intent.

My comments about the spectators were a little harsh, but they came from the repeated comments made by individuals in official shirts. Seemed to me there was a strong commitment to giving them some carnage, kinda like selling the deadly crashes in auto racing instead of the competition, as the reason to come out and have a good time. If it is entertainment, then it isn't a sport, although sports can be entertaining, WWF comes to mind.

There is not a better set up for spectators in this sport, the layout was awesome for viewing, the wooded areas to plop a chair down numerous, fairly priced concessions with hot food and cold drinks, porta potties, trash cans, and the coolest is the fm transmission of the activities and scores. Parking/Pit areas within a short distance makes for conveinence.

I went to wheel not whine. It was the first time I have entered an organized wheeling competition, just not my first competition. My second place finish of the four entries in Legends is no ones fault but mine. But since Jack and I were the only ones running by mid day Sunday, I think there is a message here, please don't ignor it. Gotta feed them big dogs, build the sport from the new comers, anyone follow golf? Gotta baseball farm team in your town? Maybe a local race track where the wanna be Ernhardts feed the sport every weekend?

Thanks Tim

Actually, Tim and I talked about this today. We are thinking about adding "Legends" gates that go around the really ridiculous spots so that those vehicles could do. Then, let them take the Unlimited course for bonus points. Again, this is only in planning... not at all a part of the event yet.

As for the "officials" making those comments, I'm an upfront kinda guy. We design obstacles to push the vehicle to the very edge. Obviously, if we designed an obstacle that would roll over Kevin Mize, we'd have an obstacle that would roll everyone. I pretty much build it to where I wouldn't be comfortable with it, take it one or two steps further, and mark it. Our goal is to 1)Challenge you guys, 2)Design the course so the fans like it, while 3)making it as safe for you competitors as you will allow it to be.

As a course designer with Darrel, we feel it is us against you guys. Kinda like the guys that raise the bulls to buck off the cowboy's in rodeo. We want out bulls to kick your a$$, but not hurt you. If one rolls over, and everyone is o.k., Darrel and I take that as a victory for us. So far, you guys are kicking our a$$es.

Originally posted by jeepinchad
As a course designer with Darrel, we feel it is us against you guys. Kinda like the guys that raise the bulls to buck off the cowboy's in rodeo. We want out bulls to kick your a$$, but not hurt you. If one rolls over, and everyone is o.k., Darrel and I take that as a victory for us. So far, you guys are kicking our a$$es.

Damnit Chad, that changes everything :flipoff2:


Your discussion on the gates is worth continuing. You guys probably think I need to get a life, my wife does :p

Who's got the pics?

I do. They're uploading as we speak. :-D

As for the cones, I agree that you need them. Just not on the penalty. This is not a complaint about ERoCC specifically, but in RC comps in general. :) I didn't claim to have an answer. :flipoff2: I'm sure that you guys know what's best though, which is why I support ya'll.

J. J.

I had a damn good time. I thought the course was tough but by no means undoable!! If we the competitors ask for harder shiat we got it. Ole' Mr. Shupey made it look like a paved Fawkin' road but hey my hats off to him.
I compete to have fun and do some advertising. If I win I would be elated. I didnt compete Sunday due to broken parts Sat. I had a damn good time and will be back in July w/ an improved vehicle.
As for the carnage, it has to be expected in our sport. I looked at some of the obstacles and wondered what kind of sick fawk Daryl is. I attempted all of my obstacles on Sat. w/ full intent of completing them. I was the 1st (I mean the 1st) vehicle on clockwise and counter clockwise. I didnt make either one but guys were smokin'um on Sunday. That was the luck of the draw.
If you have ?'s and comments to improve ERoCC tell Chad and Tim. They work there asses off to bring this event together for US! They are intelligent enough to listen and take your comments seriously. I have some beef w/ the breakdown time rules. I will make my suggestions and see what they think. I feel the event is going in the right direction and will continue to grow on the east coast. Rocky #27

Originally posted by RockYJ
....If you have ?'s and comments to improve ERoCC tell Chad and Tim. They work there asses off to bring this event together for US! They are intelligent enough to listen and take your comments seriously. I have some beef w/ the breakdown time rules. I will make my suggestions and see what they think. I feel the event is going in the right direction and will continue to grow on the east coast. Rocky #27

Yes! Tell us! Obviously, we watch this board to get feedback and make it better. If you don't tell us about a problem, we won't know about it. But I will tell you, if you post here I'm not afraid to tell you my thoughts on the subject, and I don't think Chad is either. Darrel on the other hand, is a lurker.

Originally posted by RockYJ
I didnt compete Sunday due to broken parts

Come on, you know you didn't compete on Sun. because you love the verbal bashing you were getting all day sunday :D, j/k. (can't really say too much cause its not I am out there competing, my hat is off to all who competed)
I thought you guys did great and this event was a huge improvement over the first (atleast from spectators view).
-Ed

Here are the statistics and results:

http://www.jrocc.com/jrocc/eroccjune2002.nsf

Not everything is in there yet and I still need more pictures, but it is a good start.

Enjoy!

Originally posted by Whitewater
Another note about catering to fans. I have no idea how EROCC does it but there is A LOT of time and effort that goes into these events, they are not cheap time wise or $$$ wise to put on. I know that in some other series' the vast majority of the spectator fees go into the actual cost of putting the show on so that the entry fees can be returned to the competitors as prize money. Without fans the sport won't exist.

Thank you Whitewater. I appreciate the support. You hit the nail on the head. In our events, all of the event fees the competitors pay gets paid back out as prize money. The fans pay for the insurance, porto-johns, security, etc. Not to mention the gravel for the road, the bulldozer work to make the parking lot, etc. And bigger than all that, the fans are the reason sponsors are interested in advertising and getting involved.

I think the course was very well laid out. When I go into the event I know my truck is too big. I don't have the money or anywhere near the experience to be in the top. I go to learn and have a good time. I too am somewhat concerned about building obstacles that force rollovers. I can also see Tim point. The spectators want some action, if nothing happens, they don't come back. Sunday, I was watching the last two competitors finish up. The guy beside me asked, "Do you have to drive between the cones?" He didn't give a damn about points or cones, he just came to watch some extreme 4-wheeling. I think the course designers have to walk a fine line between hard and stupid. Chad, please don't roll me over, I don't want to get crushed by rockwells! Overall, it was a great weekend. Now if I can piece my junk back together in 4 weeks.

Congrats Tim and Chad, It sounds like you all had a good event.

I'm glad to hear your paying back 100% of the entry fees. I believe that is one reason CalROCS has become popular fast. Good luck on your future events as well. We're all going to have sit down a figure out next years schedule pretty soon.

Rich

Originally posted by jeepinchad
Actually, Tim and I talked about this today. We are thinking about adding "Legends" gates that go around the really ridiculous spots so that those vehicles could do. Then, let them take the Unlimited course for bonus points. Again, this is only in planning... not at all a part of the event yet.



Have you guys seen the new UROC rule regarding "Legend's Gates"? Here it is from the UROC website:

"Legend Line Bypass
6/3/02: Taking the bypass route available for Legend Class competitors on designated obstacles will result in 0 points being issued for Legends Class competitors. Unlimited Class vehicles using the bypass will be considered out of bounds.

Legends Class competitors who choose not to take the Legend Line Bypass and attempt the Unlimited line will receive a bonus of -5 points only if the obstacle is completed without timing or pointing out. Legend class competitors must complete the Unlimited Line once started and cannot back out and take the Legend Line after starting the Unlimited Line."

This hasn't been used in an event yet, but I think it will help make things better for the Legends guys. At the UROC Cedar event the legends guys would get a 20 point penalty for taking the Legends bypass, but almost all of the Legends competitors decided to winch up the normal course instead because it was only a 15 point penalty. Unfortunately there was a whole lot of winching going on in Cedar, hopefully the new rule will help change that.

this event went much better than the last.... i loved the course, and the way the groups were run... next year ill be there in full force ready for your sadistic course's.....

seems to me that unlimited has decent amount of entries while legend is low count like 4 to 5 why? i dunno maybe the legend course has to be a little easier to bring more weekend trail riders into the sport.... maybe it just needs more time to grow..... if you get more entants youll have more spectators due to family and friends and such...... i competed in the first event totally unprepared for what was there.... i got a good look at what i needed and wanted.... i continue to support by spectating (takin notes too) and will for the rest of this season......



anyone on the east coast who wants to see this sport grow, must compete even if in legends, or spectate to support the events.......... i will support it in both ways.....


set up the course how you feel, the competitors must figure out the best way to attack these with thought of the scoring system.... strategy is a big part.....


my 2 areas id like to look at deeper are starting positions and breakdown issues......


from what i saw these rollovers at this event were fine..... it is the multiple 6 times down to the bottom that id rather avoid due to lack of $$$$ to get my junk back together......


hats off to all again for a great time...... it got better than the last, thats whats important... improvement

I think the legend gates would be an AWESOME idea. Just seemed like the spots that challenged unlimited were all but impossible for legends.

DO NOT change anything for the unlimited class. You want that place to be considered the toughest wheeling West of the Mississippi and it is. Keep it that way, period. More big boys will be there once word gets out, and judging by the turn out at this event, word is getting out. We loved it. Makes everything else you've wheeled your whole life look like 2wd stuff :D

Can I quote you on that? That would be a great catchy phrase for the website.

Originally posted by jeepinchad
Can I quote you on that? That would be a great catchy phrase for the website.

You can quote me on whatever, I'm not from Mudder Truckers so i won't threaten to sue for using a likeness (glad to see he couldn't make it to this last event, guess he got tired of losing)

In got the ERoCC Event Standings updated. Go to http://www.erocc.com/ and then go to the EVENTS --> STANDINGS page to view the standings.

Finals will be here before you know it.

Video's of the 1 event are complete and ready to mail out to anyone interested, tapes are $20.00 that includes shipping, the 2nd event tapes will be ready to mail out 6-30-02 e-mail me at flashvideos@aol.com or call (859)273-7551. the event was totally awsome , I have some really great footage of both events, lots of carnage, broken axels, twisted drive shafts, roll overs did I mention roll overs, lots of them also. even our hometown boy Rusty Bray with Kyoffroad center did a endo for us. I have that captured on video also. Oh by the way I got you to Rocky. Keep up the good work Tim, Chad, and Darryl, look forward to July's event.

Flash:roxy:

If all goes as planned, I will be entering the next event in Legends class. Just have a few things to work out on the Jeep. I do have a suggestion, why not call it 'STOCK' cause that is what it is... the term Legends just sounds like the old guys are out giving it a try ;)

Any way, I like the idea of the Legends class gates. Maybe it will help get others to run.

Mike C

My hats off to the EROCC crew! You guys did a great job! The obstacles were insane but doable. I like having all of the hardest obstacles you've rode in the country in one spot and your tow rig 100 yards away, so if your not into competing, then just come try your luck at them.

I did a forward roll at the last EROCC but realize were competing at the top of our sport. Build'm harder cause I'm coming for you Chad and Darryl. :flipoff2:

Huh? What? You wanna piece of me? Huh? Is that what you want? :flipoff2:

Alright, Sweet D, we build an obstacle especially for lt1wrangler. :evil:

Making the Legends/Stock/Modified rigs run the exact same coarse as the Unlimiteds is ridiculous.
Doing this will just scare new competitors off.

I hope you will consider Pro-Rock's method of widening some gates to broaden line choices and even eliminating a particularly difficult or dangeous gate within the coarse.

The biggest problem we (the Stock Modifieds) had at the Farmington meet was going after the Unlimiteds had ground large holes at the bottoms of some of the climbs.
We should have gone first due to our smaller tire size.

I read here that the opposite was true due to the type of terrain which becomes easier with use.
Event promoters and coarse designers should consider this phenomenon when deciding order of competition.

Now, if the majority of the event promoters will come a little closer together to eachother as to wheelbase mods, tire size, etc. and make sure there are not as many roll prone climbs as the Unlimiteds I believe the lower class idea will explode in popularity.
The recent announcment of the RCAA/CalROCS merger is a great step in that direction.