Ok Spaceghost, BigDude, Syko, and the rest of you goombahs. :D

I was SO impressed with the competition, and more importantly the people at the event this past weekend, that I "convinced" my wife ;) to let me compete next year in the Legends class.

I'm gunnin for Bettio :D (I can't gun for SpaceGhost, I remember when he had 33x9.50's on his rig, and have too much respect for him. :D ) But I'm thinking that finishing behind SG, or the rest of you, for that matter, as long as I'm ahead of Bettio, is worth the effort. :D

Anyway, SG and Syko know, so I'll explain to the rest of ya. I've got my 76 CJ5 in pieces/parts that I was originally gonna build as a trail rig, but now I have bigger plans (obviously).

I've got D44's front and rear (58" wide Scout stuff) and 36" swampers.

I was thinking about lengthening the wheelbase to around 96" or so. But do you think that the axles are wide enough? Should I go for around 62" wide? Are 44's up to the abuse?

I've already got the 304/NP435/D300 combo, so it's just down to axles and suspension (I'm thinking springover)

What'cha think? 60's obviously would be stronger, but with the 36" tire limit, I don't want to have something dangling to low with only 36's.

I guess what I'm asking, is what would be the "ultimate" Legend's class rig?

Thanks for the help.

Originally posted by IndyCJ

I was thinking about lengthening the wheelbase to around 96" or so.

Is that legal in Erocc? It isn't in ProRocks or Calrocs stock classes.....

Originally posted by Lance


Is that legal in Erocc? It isn't in ProRocks or Calrocs stock classes.....

From the rules:

8. Frame
a. Legend Class must use a boxed or semi boxed ladder type mainframe made of magnetic steel. No restrictions apply to Unlimited Class frame

Seems legal to me?

Originally posted by Lance


Is that legal in Erocc? It isn't in ProRocks or Calrocs stock classes.....

Erocc rules don't say anything about wheelbase that I can find, simply that the frame must be boxed or semi-boxed ladder type.

I could be wrong, but I thought they had a restriction on how much longer than stock wheelbase you could be - in other words, you had to be within either 2 inches or 4 inches of stock wheelbase. Which means if you rig had a 90 inch stock wb, the most you could make it was like 92 inches (or 94 inches or whatever).....

again I could be wrong.

Here's what I would do.....

62" wide 44 up front
58" wide 44 out back
102" wheel base
36" TSL (grooved, big benefit) OR 35" BFG for the contigency $$$$
Simple SOA with some JCW CJ springs (I've seen them flex :eek:) and a wrap bar. It'll do well with that 304 because it's light. gear the axles low with the manual (5.4 and lower) or a little higher with an auto (I would choose auto). Don't forget Ram assist because it's legal in the Legend class (although I don't think it's totally necessary).

I like a narrower rear for competition because once you get the front through the gates you know the rear will fit. We are about equal in width F&R on the TJ and it's sometimes tough to corner and get the rear through the gates. I like the 100" wheelbase because I have it on my rig and it works. Ideally I would say 100-102" (but if you're extending the frame then 102")

Anyone can beat Bettio if they aren't afraid to drive. I know SpaceGhost would've creamed Bettio if he knew from the start how close he would be to 1st place :eek: only 12 points

Our Legend rig belongs to "rkcrawl" on this board and he wants to make "Bettio big pockets" look like a fool in July :D

IndyCJ, I've been contemplating the very same thing. Only I have a currently all stock 85 4 Runner. Only difference is I trying come up with a setup to be legal in both Legends and NeuRoc Modified stock class where they do have a wheel base limit of 2.5 inches over stock. Then be able to stretch the wheelbase a few inches for Legends comps.

Anyway, I'm in Whitestown and would be happy to lend a hand.

PM me if interested.

On the frame issue.....

Our stretched TJ uses a stock frame lengthened 13" in the center. It also uses a stock TJ suspension. We could've ran legends with 36" tires exactly as we competed in the unlimited class. :D

Originally posted by ChadLloyd
I could be wrong, but I thought they had a restriction on how much longer than stock wheelbase you could be - in other words, you had to be within either 2 inches or 4 inches of stock wheelbase. Which means if you rig had a 90 inch stock wb, the most you could make it was like 92 inches (or 94 inches or whatever).....

again I could be wrong.

I thoroughly looked in the rules, and I didn't see anything that mentioned that?


Originally posted by BigDude
36" TSL (grooved, big benefit)
Simple SOA with some JCW CJ springs
58" wide 44 out back
62" wide 44 up front
Don't forget Ram assist



Hmmm, got all of that. :D Sounds like I just need to put it together. :D

The wheelbase thing is why my decision is so hard. I can compete in erocc with flipped springs, but no where else. If I can't compete elsewhere why not just finish the full hydro steering and run the 38's? I have considered flipping the rears back around and slipping into most of the other events stocker class. This only takes labor and spare driveshaft.

For right now the most reasonable for me is to make some changes to the things that didn't work as well as needed, stick with the saginaw, and run 35's.

Hey Rich glad to hear you are gonna bring it! Nothing would be better than a bunch of guys that actually like each other to be competing for the prizes.

Bettio has the perfect rig for this class! Bet he spends more money than I do from here out to stay on top, lol.

INdyCJ, Im no competitor(maybe next year) but i can chime in on the D44's. My YJ sits at 96" wheelbase with 62" front/61" rear. It runs SOA with 36 TSL's. So far in my experiences with it after the SOA its VERY stable. We have tons of extremely off camber stuff here in WV and so far the pucker factor has been less with the 36's than with the 33's & SUA i was running. The extra wheelbase, only 2" on mine, is defiantely noticeable on steep climbs. I would shoot for 98-100" on the cj5 with the 62/58". It will turn tighter with the more narrow rear. DEFINATELY build the anti wrap bar. I put mine on this weekend and its amazing how much wrap i have even with lift springs & 7" perches. Well worth the day of fabbing & $40 i spent on it.

D60's would be ideal but you will rob valuable ground clearance running 36's. Just beef the D44's, alloy shafts after you trash the stockers. Low budget is the only way to go :D

Screw that Bettio guy:flipoff2:

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
Hey Rich glad to hear you are gonna bring it! Nothing would be better than a bunch of guys that actually like each other to be competing for the prizes.


Who said I liked you? :flipoff2: :D

Just skiddin, we've been through the "Cliff era", and lived to tell about it. :D

That makes you tops in my book. :D

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
The wheelbase thing is why my decision is so hard. I can compete in erocc with flipped springs, but no where else. If I can't compete elsewhere why not just finish the full hydro steering and run the 38's?

I thought Prorock would let you run flipped springs??????

Originally posted by IndyCJ
Hmmm, got all of that. :D Sounds like I just need to put it together. :D
If you have it then put it together and run.

Originally posted by bigdude
Here's what I would do.....

62" wide 44 up front
58" wide 44 out back
102" wheel base
36" TSL (grooved, big benefit) OR 35" BFG for the contigency $$$$
Simple SOA with some JCW CJ springs (I've seen them flex :eek:) and a wrap bar. It'll do well with that 304 because it's light. gear the axles low with the manual (5.4 and lower) or a little higher with an auto (I would choose auto). Don't forget Ram assist because it's legal in the Legend class (although I don't think it's totally necessary).

I like a narrower rear for competition because once you get the front through the gates you know the rear will fit. We are about equal in width F&R on the TJ and it's sometimes tough to corner and get the rear through the gates. I like the 100" wheelbase because I have it on my rig and it works. Ideally I would say 100-102" (but if you're extending the frame then 102")

Anyone can beat Bettio if they aren't afraid to drive. I know SpaceGhost would've creamed Bettio if he knew from the start how close he would be to 1st place :eek: only 12 points

Our Legend rig belongs to "rkcrawl" on this board and he wants to make "Bettio big pockets" look like a fool in July :D

You hit it on the head bigdude.
:beer:

If ERocC uses UROC rules, which it appears that they do(at least most), the ONLY differences between Unlimited and Legend is that you have to have stock type frame for Legend, you have to have 36" or smaller tires(supposedly measured with a caliper, but if you had a set of worn 37's that would fit through the caliper, I have heard that they still will not allow them in Legends), you can only have hydro assist steering, not full hydro, and you cannot use rear steer in Legends(I *believe* that's all). Aside from that, anything goes. I briefed over CalRocs rules a while back, and they are quite different. Not sure about everybody else.

Originally posted by Lance


Is that legal in Erocc? It isn't in ProRocks or Calrocs stock classes.....

Even if it's okay with one group, if it's illegal at MOST competitions, it wouldn't be a very wise move IMO. As with mud racing rules, all these various rock-crawling sanctioning bodies will have their own little nuances in the rules. But, over time you'll find some "standards" that apply most places you go. And I'd be willing to bet that wheelbase being at or near stock is going to be the "standard" in the entry-level classes for the foreseeable future with most groups. Lance has already pointed out two groups that won't allow the stretch.

TEX

Originally posted by syko

If you have it then put it together and run.

I'll get right on it. :D

Originally posted by IndyCJ


I'll get right on it. :D
I'm glad to see your listening. :D Don't let a 12 month old get in your way.:rolleyes: ;)







*you did say 12 month old right*

Originally posted by syko

I'm glad to see your listening. :D Don't let a 12 month old get in your way.:rolleyes: ;)







*you did say 12 month old right*

3 month, sorry. If he was 12 months, he'd have tools in his hands already. :D

Originally posted by IndyCJ


3 month, sorry. If he was 12 months, he'd have tools in his hands already. :D

Shouldn't you be putting something together:confused: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by bigdude


Shouldn't you be putting something together:confused: :flipoff2:

Twat? I c&nt hear you? I have an ear infuction. :flipoff2:

Just gotta get some steel to stretch this bitch a little bit, and I'll start bolting it together.

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
The wheelbase thing is why my decision is so hard. I can compete in erocc with flipped springs, but no where else. If I can't compete elsewhere why not just finish the full hydro steering and run the 38's? I have considered flipping the rears back around and slipping into most of the other events stocker class. This only takes labor and spare driveshaft.

Prorock rules
Modified Stock Class

Modified Stock Class is intended for well-built trail vehicles modified using readily available aftermarket parts and being street legal. Any rules or restrictions needed to maintain the spirit of this class, will be implemented.

1- Vehicle must be licensed with tag, registration and insured according to the laws of the state in which it is registered.

2- Maximum tire size of 35" as labeled by the tire manufacturer.

3- Frame is to be OEM or direct OEM design aftermarket replacement. Frame re-enforcements are allowed.

4- Any aftermarket suspension changes on the vehicle will be similar to OEM design. Examples:

a) If the vehicle came from the factory with leaf springs and shackles attached directly to the frame, it must run that way. No 'buggy' leafs and no 'double shackle' designs, etc are allowed. Reverse shackle is OK.

b) If the vehicle came from the factory with coil springs, it must run that way. Coil-over shocks are not allowed.

c) Suspension locating points on the frame must be within 2 1/2" forward or aft of OEM locating points

5- All normally DOT required turn signals, head lamps and tail lamps must be operational.

6- Windshield wipers must work properly. Note: Windshields may be for removed for competition after tech inspection when checking-in at the event.

7- Wheelbase of the vehicle must be within 2.5" of OEM. There will be zero leeway here.

8- Axles will be of OEM design. If the vehicle came from the factory with IFS, it must run that way. If the vehicle came from the factory with straight axles, it must run that way. Modifications in axle width and size are allowed.

9- Steering will be completely of OEM design. Hydraulic and hydraulic assist is not allowed.

10- Equipped with a winch

11- Real lockers front and rear (no limited slips)

12- Seat belts or harnesses for driver and spotter

13- Fire extinguisher

14- First Aid kit

15- Roll cage designed to keep passengers safe in the case of a multiple roll over accident

Again, the intent of Modified Stock Class is to stay within factory designs while allowing aftermarket modifications that are normal in the 4x4 recreation sport. There are no restrictions on engine, tranny, t-case and gearing. Bead lock wheels are allowed.

Mine meets every one of the Prorocks rules, except for tire size (easy fix) and wheelbase changes. I'd have to redrill my rear perch 1.5" and relocate the rear axle forward. Mo major deal really.

If only it wasn't for the $350 entry fee.... :rolleyes:

Within 2.5" of stock, original mounting locations, no hydro assist, and 35"s based on stamping. Otherwise looks the same.

Answers the questions doesn't it! I'll stay where I'm at for now, get some new skins, and shorten one of my rear shafts and flip the springs back for Prorocks.

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
Within 2.5" of stock, original mounting locations, no hydro assist, and 35"s based on stamping. Otherwise looks the same.

Answers the questions doesn't it! I'll stay where I'm at for now, get some new skins, and shorten one of my rear shafts and flip the springs back for Prorocks.
My bad................I was unaware you had hydro assist*I didn't really look* and was also unaware that your wheelbase was stretched more then 2.5". I just thought the only thing you thought was stopping you was the shackles reversal. Just trying to help. Just tell me to shut up and go away:D:flipoff2:

I think the things you should be shooting for on an ultimate legends class rig would be a drivetrain lift, 90 degree approach and departure angules (which I think is stronlgy overlooked at EROCC), hp housing (or third member) a good torquey motor and traction control.

Plus take as much weight off as possible...

Winning combination here! (No real secret though!)

Syko,
What i meant is if I do these things I will be able to run Prorocks, as long as I flip the rear springs back before the event. I flipped them both for about 5" total, the shackle reversal will fit in the rules as I understand them and I don't have any assist yet. The full hydro was held off until after erocc so now it will just collect dust until this winter when all is down and I rethink the future.

This is only of interest because Prorocks is coming to Attica. I'm pricing the 35 MTR's now, gotta buy them somewhere that has a road hazard, lol. Those along with a new winch cable, moving the winch above the bumper, and repairing my spent driveshaft and I'm good to go.

Originally posted by TEX


Even if it's okay with one group, if it's illegal at MOST competitions, it wouldn't be a very wise move IMO. As with mud racing rules, all these various rock-crawling sanctioning bodies will have their own little nuances in the rules. But, over time you'll find some "standards" that apply most places you go. And I'd be willing to bet that wheelbase being at or near stock is going to be the "standard" in the entry-level classes for the foreseeable future with most groups. Lance has already pointed out two groups that won't allow the stretch.

TEX

That's the big rub ...

I'm pulling pieces together for a new rig and would like to build a dedicated 'modifed stock' rig but the four or so various promoters are way too far apart as far as class rules. So I'm finding it awfully difficult to decide which way to go...

Some divide at 35" tires and others at 36".
Some let you stretch just a little and some don't care.
Some want the suspension to match the frame type and some don't care.
Some allow hydraulic assist and others don't.
Some allow an unlimited to run if they go down in tire size and and some say no, no.
Lance said recently ProRocs was talking about limiting body chopping and others will not care about that either!

I was going to go with my 4.2/4.0 and built 44 /M20 light weight axels on another more roll over friendly tub and coiled TJ frame for the modfied classes but if these promoters don't start coming a lot more together on the basic rules in those classes it doesn't even make sense to try and build a rig to be competitive for two or three sanctions.

In fact, it makes more sense to build for the unlimiteds since at least there you won't be hampered when switching from one event to another's.

Right now my current rig is ProRock legal (competed here in Farmington this spring) but I'm still sitting on the fence.
I started working on a set of RR 60's and for the TJ frame ... I doubt they will be outlawed ... but danged, it's hard to decide to stretch it 10" ... or hold off on that and hope the promoters will at least settle on the wheelbase thing ... :mad:

Originally posted by Ryan
If ERocC uses UROC rules, which it appears that they do(at least most), the ONLY differences between Unlimited and Legend is that you have to have stock type frame for Legend, you have to have 36" or smaller tires(supposedly measured with a caliper, but if you had a set of worn 37's that would fit through the caliper, I have heard that they still will not allow them in Legends), you can only have hydro assist steering, not full hydro, and you cannot use rear steer in Legends(I *believe* that's all). Aside from that, anything goes. I briefed over CalRocs rules a while back, and they are quite different. Not sure about everybody else.

Our rules are based on UROC, but we have re-written them to make them more concise and remove some conflicting statements.

Your statement about vehicle requirements is correct, but to clarify, we don't care what is stamped on the tire sidewall, it just has to MEASURE less than 36" from side to side. We have a caliper we use that must fit over the tire.

So, to recap, here are the limitations:
1. MEASURED 36" or smaller tire
2. No rear steer
3. No full hydro steer
4. Stock frame

With those few limitations, they shouldn't conflict with many other class limitations from other events. In other words, if your vehicle is considered stock at another event, you should have no problem running our legends class. However, if you build your vehicle to our rules, you will have problems fitting in their classes because they have a lot more limitations.

I know it is a pain dealing with all of the different limitations among all of the different events. This is all pretty new and will take some time, but some standards will emerge.

Originally posted by TrailKeeper


Our rules are based on UROC, but we have re-written them to make them more concise and remove some conflicting statements.

Your statement about vehicle requirements is correct, but to clarify, we don't care what is stamped on the tire sidewall, it just has to MEASURE less than 36" from side to side. We have a caliper we use that must fit over the tire.




Yeah, the tire rules are somewhat unclear, or at least hard to make sense of. Why they don't just say 36" sidewall and down for Legend, and then just put a cieling on Unlimited(if they want one), I don't know. Near as I can tell, the only way the 36" and down sidewall rule would differ from the 36" and down caliper rule, is that you could maybe get a worn set of 37's to fit though a 36" caliper(which I've heard some UROC officials say won't fly anyway), and run Legend with worn 37's, which would definitely give you an advantage. I can't say for certain, because I always end up checking in late, but I don't know if UROC has ever actually used the caliper, LOL. I don't see where they would need it. I haven't seen a 36" tire that measured bigger than 36", and nobody, so far as I know, is running anything in Legend with a bigger sidewall designation than 36". Maybe when my 37's get worn down a bit I'll show up with them, ready to go in Legends, and see what happens, LOL.

From the sound of it, I'm guessing your involved with ERocC Trailkeeper. What's your take on this?

Originally posted by Ryan



Yeah, the tire rules are somewhat unclear, or at least hard to make sense of. Why they don't just say 36" sidewall and down for Legend, and then just put a cieling on Unlimited(if they want one), I don't know. Near as I can tell, the only way the 36" and down sidewall rule would differ from the 36" and down caliper rule, is that you could maybe get a worn set of 37's to fit though a 36" caliper(which I've heard some UROC officials say won't fly anyway), and run Legend with worn 37's, which would definitely give you an advantage. I can't say for certain, because I always end up checking in late, but I don't know if UROC has ever actually used the caliper, LOL. I don't see where they would need it. I haven't seen a 36" tire that measured bigger than 36", and nobody, so far as I know, is running anything in Legend with a bigger sidewall designation than 36". Maybe when my 37's get worn down a bit I'll show up with them, ready to go in Legends, and see what happens, LOL.



UROC does use the caliper during the tech inspections, I don't know why the late check ins don't ever see it. In Cedar, Tobie Taylor ran 38" SX's in the Legends Class. They were measured during tech inspections and again after the first day when a few people complained. Both times they fit through the caliper. You better start doing burnouts with those 37's to get ready for Vernal.

Originally posted by TrailKeeper

4. Stock frame
I know it is a pain dealing with all of the different limitations among all of the different events.

Question please ...
How about a stock frame that has been stretched in the middle or extended fore and/or aft :confused:

Originally posted by LowGunCJ


UROC does use the caliper during the tech inspections, I don't know why the late check ins don't ever see it. In Cedar, Tobie Taylor ran 38" SX's in the Legends Class. They were measured during tech inspections and again after the first day when a few people complained. Both times they fit through the caliper. You better start doing burnouts with those 37's to get ready for Vernal.



:eek: :eek: :eek:

Niiiiice. I guess you miss a lot when you don't make it to tech inspection 'til the morning of the competition. That's good to hear. I've never been able to find anybody with personal experience with this rule. Thanks for the info, although it might be a while before I'll be sportin' the 37's in competition, LOL.

I think I'll bite the bullet and wait on a class in the middle, between Legends and Unlimited.
When I finish what I have started, I won't be able to compete in Legends and the buggies in UNL. will just hand my ass back to me at the end of the comp.
Calrocs is talking about a Sportsmans class, stock type frame and any suspension.
Good luck on your project Indy.

Can you stretch the rear of the frame for legends in ERoCC? also anyone know the closest tire out there to 36"s w/out going over? i.e. who has measurements on 36tsls, sx's, 35-37 bogger, etc.
thanks
bob

Originally posted by RockJeep
Can you stretch the rear of the frame for legends in ERoCC? also anyone know the closest tire out there to 36"s w/out going over? i.e. who has measurements on 36tsls, sx's, 35-37 bogger, etc.
thanks
bob

all interco's tires sizes are on there site, I don't think it gives heights for different rim weigths though

Originally posted by Jaffer


Question please ...
How about a stock frame that has been stretched in the middle or extended fore and/or aft :confused:

I'm not the person in charge of vehicle requirements or tech inspection, but the rules state:

a. Legend Class must use a boxed or semi boxed ladder type mainframe made of magnetic steel.

So stretching it or extending it looks to be legal, as long as it is boxed and not round tubing.

Originally posted by doctor_G
I think I'll bite the bullet and wait on a class in the middle, between Legends and Unlimited.
When I finish what I have started, I won't be able to compete in Legends and the buggies in UNL. will just hand my ass back to me at the end of the comp.
Calrocs is talking about a Sportsmans class, stock type frame and any suspension.
Good luck on your project Indy.

Sounds like an excuse not to compete.

Our second place finisher from this past weekend in the unlimited class was running a stock frame, full body and full width axles.